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View Full Version : This is Why Managing Unknown Contacts is So important. ( Tampa FL US Army soldier)



Prdator
05-15-2012, 09:50 AM
Listen to the news cast and watch the Video, you can see the targeting, pre-assult indicators, it is a text book ambush.

I tell folks all the time that MUC is the most important thing you can learn!! You still need good gun skills and in IMHO they could have come into play on this attack.

I also wonder how this will tie into the other S florida shooting..........




http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/255240/8/VIDEO-US-Army-soldier-brutally-beaten-in-South-Tampa


Tampa, Florida -- Police want your help finding four men who teamed up to beat a young U.S. Army soldier in a South Tampa street.

It was an awful welcome to Tampa Bay for a young soldier. Police say the victim of a violent beating caught on camera is 24 years old and has lived in Tampa for less than a month.

Photo Gallery: Soldier beaten and robbed in South Tampa

He's a U.S. Army soldier assigned to MacDill Air Force Base and lives not far from the base at Dale Mabry Hwy. and Interbay Blvd.

Police say Sunday morning, at around 3 a.m., the soldier's car broke down a few miles from home along Westshore Blvd.

The attack came when he was walking home and using Iowa St. to get from Westshore to Dale Mabry. At the intersection of Iowa and Renellie Dr., the man came into the view of a neighbor's motion-activated security camera.

A group of three young men is seen walking ahead of the soldier. Police say one of the men in the group doubled back and asked to soldier to borrow a dollar. When the soldier reached for his wallet, the first punch flew.

The first, tremendous sucker punch laid the victim onto the ground. The other two men joined in, punching and kicking the soldier.

A fourth man comes sprinting into view from the left edge of the video. The new attacker -- a man the soldier said he had walked past earlier -- joined in the beating.

Tampa Police officers say the crooks stole the soldier's wallet and cell phone, then took off south on Renellie Dr. When he eventually got to his feet, the victim had to knock on doors to find someone to help him call 911.

See Also: Video shows young soldier severely beaten

The soldier was taken to Tampa General Hospital with cuts and bruises on his face and head. Police say he is expected to make a full recovery.

Police say they haven't gotten many useful details about the suspects from the video.

The victim was not able to tell police much more: they're all in their late teens to early 20's. Two were black men with an average build, police said. One attacker was possibly Hispanic, also with an average build. The fourth man was also black, but with a heavier build.

Police are hoping someone knows about this brutal beating and will call Tampa Police at 813-354-6600 to help them find the attackers.

TCinVA
05-15-2012, 10:16 AM
In college towns you see the same pattern as well. If you're a middle class white person it doesn't usually pay to be on foot after 10 PM in most places. The odds of becoming a target of what is usually multiple assailants is pretty high. Thinking through the assault/robbery incidents in my area, I can't think of a single one in the last year or so that's only involved one bad guy.

Coyotesfan97
05-15-2012, 01:20 PM
It looks like three of the four have their hoods up. On a warm night wearing a hoodie. That's a clue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

voodoo_man
05-15-2012, 01:28 PM
"Got a dollar?" or any derivation of which...

"Got the time?"

"Know where the bus/train/street...."

All are setup quotes

+1 for hoody up = issue.

Coyotesfan97
05-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Voodoo I've been meaning to post I like your signature!:cool:

Dropkick
05-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Situational Awareness, Threat Indictors, and Pre-Assault Cues are only part of it though.

LOKNLOD
05-15-2012, 02:26 PM
The only people out after midnight are predators and potential victims... Obviously there are times that you have no choice but to be in a bad spot, so just recognizing you're a two-legged meal ticket for somebody is pretty important.

Given that nature of that attack, short of not being there at all, I wonder if the best he could have done would have been to keep a fence up and just be ready to fight while arcing to keep awareness. He was up sh*t creek without a paddle from the gitgo. I'm not sure he could have managed his way out of that one.

voodoo_man
05-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Voodoo I've been meaning to post I like your signature!:cool:

:cool:


The only people out after midnight are predators and potential victims... Obviously there are times that you have no choice but to be in a bad spot, so just recognizing you're a two-legged meal ticket for somebody is pretty important.

Given that nature of that attack, short of not being there at all, I wonder if the best he could have done would have been to keep a fence up and just be ready to fight while arcing to keep awareness. He was up sh*t creek without a paddle from the gitgo. I'm not sure he could have managed his way out of that one.

I am always out after midnight...guess I am a predator?

:D

LOKNLOD
05-15-2012, 02:39 PM
I am always out after midnight...guess I am a predator?

:D

No, you're a potential victim ;)

voodoo_man
05-15-2012, 02:44 PM
No, you're a potential victim ;)

My shiny tin badge say otherwise :D

Prdator
05-15-2012, 03:18 PM
Given that nature of that attack, short of not being there at all, I wonder if the best he could have done would have been to keep a fence up and just be ready to fight while arcing to keep awareness. He was up sh*t creek without a paddle from the gitgo. I'm not sure he could have managed his way out of that one.


For me its the having the Knowledge and Ability to "MUC on Demand" is what its all about. He had about 2 seconds to fence up and arc, I would argue had he done that and only that it would ( MAYBE) been enough different than the other victims these guys have had before, that it would have taken him off the list. Now it might not have, but had he fenced and Arced he would have been in a MUCH better position to deal with these guys!! Would it have been get off scot free, maybe maybe not but he would have been WAY ahead of the curve.

But I have observed that you can not teach this ( MUC) First you have to teach Gun stuff first and then slowly open the door to more.

LOKNLOD
05-15-2012, 03:33 PM
....Would it have been get off scot free, maybe maybe not but he would have been WAY ahead of the curve.


Definitely agree. Sometimes the best you can do is to be able to "brace for impact" and meet the threat head on. That puts you way ahead of getting blind-sided, though. He was definitely at an "initiative deficit" and that wasn't conducive to him staying upright and conscious.

Serpico1985
05-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Easily %95+ of the robbery reports I take and am aware of involve more than one suspect and them asking for a light, cigearette, or money prior to the commision of the crime. Taking into account other factors like time, location and surroundings, a couple of dudes asking for any of the above should set of red flags and get your ass in gear to get the hell out of the area.

TCinVA
05-17-2012, 11:26 AM
Easily %95+ of the robbery reports I take and am aware of involve more than one suspect and them asking for a light, cigearette, or money prior to the commision of the crime. Taking into account other factors like time, location and surroundings, a couple of dudes asking for any of the above should set of red flags and get your ass in gear to get the hell out of the area.

Strangers who approach should be treated with caution during daylight hours.

Strangers who approach after dark? Open hostility.

TGS
05-17-2012, 01:19 PM
Strangers who approach should be treated with caution during daylight hours.

Strangers who approach after dark? Open hostility.

Craig covers this topic (as well as having a discussion about it) and how to manage an unknown contact without open hostility as a first measure on encroachment. There's most definitely a million reasons that a well meaning person could approach you after dark........my god, I can't even count the number of times I've interacted with strangers after dark. I know you have a black cloud of violence that follows you, so you've definitely got your reasons.....but you may want to consider taking ECQC. You'll probably be better prepared all around anyways, not to mention you won't have to behave like an ogre on default just to manage an unknown contact.

GOP
05-17-2012, 01:29 PM
I haven't taken ECQC yet (am scheduled to in October), but I don't view MUC as having the ability to dissuade 4 attackers who (appear to have been) beyond the Observe phase of the OODA Loop, they had already decided he was the victim. They weren't interviewing him when they asked for a dollar, they were closing range and distracting him. If someone asks you for a dollar in a rough area at night, or does any other grooming cues, you need to be moving and defending yourself as well as you possibly can. MUC is awesome stuff, but when someone is already in the acting phase of their attack, it is time to reset their OODA loop and speed yours up. Movement and defense is absolutely critical when facing multiple opponents, with a heavy focus on movement. Getting tied up with 4 guys just so you can have a slightly better defense is useless. I've trained multiple opponent scenarios a good bit against actively attacking/resisting opponents, and moving/aligning threats is the key, attacking when possible. Just my honest opinion.

TGS
05-17-2012, 01:43 PM
I haven't taken ECQC yet (am scheduled to in October), but I don't view MUC as having the ability to dissuade 4 attackers who (appear to have been) beyond the Observe phase of the OODA Loop, they had already decided he was the victim. They weren't interviewing him when they asked for a dollar, they were closing range and distracting him. If someone asks you for a dollar in a rough area at night, or does any other grooming cues, you need to be moving and defending yourself as well as you possibly can. MUC is awesome stuff, but when someone is already in the acting phase of their attack, it is time to reset their OODA loop and speed yours up. Just my honest opinion.

You've got a good point and all....but MUC'ing takes that into account. It's the point of MUC'ing.

When a criminal decides to deceive you and encroach, he's already made up his mind that you're a victim and is in the A of OODA. MUC'ing as taught by Craig is a series of techniques that's designed to do exactly what you're talking about.....to disrupt their OODA loop and regain the initiative. This may involve a polite command, creating a monologue, yelling and posturing, lateral movement, preemptive grip establishment, placing objects between the contacts and yourself, ect. Since the point is that the contact has unknown intentions, it's something you do when managing any contact.....not just the shady ones that gun guys have pictured in their fantasy gunfight. You'll have a blast in the course.

TCinVA
05-17-2012, 02:59 PM
Craig covers this topic (as well as having a discussion about it) and how to manage an unknown contact without open hostility as a first measure on encroachment. There's most definitely a million reasons that a well meaning person could approach you after dark...


If you've been through Craig's training, though, you should be switched on enough to tell some obvious differences between "well meaning" strangers and the sort of dude who shoots people.

Three homeboys in hoodies coming at you at 11:30 at night? Different reaction than the 85 year old woman who locked herself out of her Buick and for perfectly legit reasons. While I'm sure somewhere out there an 85 year old woman jacked somebody on the street, we all know that isn't the person most likely to hurt us. Perhaps I'm just a big meanie, but I don't give a rip what some sketchy looking dude wants or why he's approaching me. Odds are it doesn't end well for me...so he isn't getting polite. By the time the "Hey, can I have a dollar?" comes out of the dude's mouth odds are the trap is already pretty well set for you.

The point of a ruse is to get close so a trap can be sprung. The words are nothing more than an attempt to occupy your head with something to process so he can eat up that next few feet of distance he needs to spring the trap. This is decidedly harder to do when you're keeping suspicious looking characters as far away as humanly possible and not at all looking friendly. It won't stop them all, but even on the ones it doesn't stop it buys you time and distance. Time and distance is opportunity. Properly used, you might be able to convince the ones who don't take subtle hints that they have somewhere else to be with less subtle hints just short of gunfire.

TGS
05-17-2012, 03:29 PM
If you've been through Craig's training, though, you should be switched on enough to tell some obvious differences between "well meaning" strangers and the sort of dude who shoots people.

I would respectfully disagree. I look like the kind of person that mugs and shoots people. So do you. This is a great point, because Craig also has a discussion about this reality of preconceived notions on who we automatically view as dangerous.


Three homeboys in hoodies coming at you at 11:30 at night? Different reaction than the 85 year old woman who locked herself out of her Buick.

This illustrates my point very well.....what about that nasty in between that no one wants to think about. What about the 180lbs white dude in a designer t-shirt with a nice haircut? Instead of the frail old lady fresh out of an exciting late night Bingo game at the community center, what if it was a decent looking younger girl in a decent part of town (i.e. not Section 8 housing, but not necessarily a nice town either)?

"Open Hostility" is certainly a good way to make sure no one gets close to you. However, many of us instead choose to maintain social decency, so open hostility isn't an acceptable default answer for an unknown contact who's just started encroaching. My point is that doesn't have to mean an increased risk of encroachment, either.

I italicized "unknown" because I think that it's something many of us often forget. We put a lot of thought into our safety and try to learn from videos like the one at hand, but we're only viewing with 20/20 hindsight. In any of these videos, it's relatively easy to see the bad guy showing cues, because you already know he's the bad guy with bad intentions about to do a bad thing. However, the key word in MUC is "unknown." We won't have that 20/20 hindsight on the street, and it very well may be completely different (or difficult) in picking out pre-attack cues from someone who doesn't fit our preconceived notion of a threat (ex: 3 homeboys being a menace while drinking juice in the hood).

These of course are only my humble opinions. I'm certainly not an expert in this stuff.....it's only what I've learned from a couple people and what has matched up to my real life experiences in coming close to shooting two different people. Dude, you're going to eat up ECQC when you get to take it. You'll love it. Especially with Craig's eloquence about the subject....if there were degrees to match his teachings, he'd have a Harvard PhD in Violence.

cmoore
05-17-2012, 03:31 PM
"Got a dollar?" or any derivation of which...


Predator reply: NO! All I have are hundreds.

TCinVA
05-17-2012, 04:06 PM
This illustrates my point very well.....what about that nasty in between that no one wants to think about. What about the 180lbs white dude in a designer t-shirt with a nice haircut?


I still don't care what he wants and figure it ain't good for me.

...but, and this is a crucial but, when I look around my area the guys who are actually doing the vast majority of the dirt ain't college kids. The guy who doesn't fit the typical bad guy profile can hurt you...no question.

But we have the bad guy profile because bad guys so often fit it.



"Open Hostility" is certainly a good way to make sure no one gets close to you. However, many of us instead choose to maintain social decency, so open hostility isn't an acceptable default answer for an unknown contact.


Sure it is. There are situations where any of us would recognize that someone who is approaching under these circumstances isn't doing it to tell us about Jesus. Honest people do not pop out of bushes, hide around corners, etc. Last Friday night I was out with the family and we watched the Avengers. My younger brother was in charge of the logistics and in his brilliance he had us parked about a block away from the theater...and the avenue of approach to the theater that he picked out was just loaded with avenues for ambush.

On the way back I was using my ever-present Surefire to cast some light on all the dark holes...and sure enough around a blind corner I caught a skeezy looking dude (happened to be a white guy in this instance) in a hoody hiding in that corner. There is no "social decency" for that guy.

Now do I pull out the same approach to a not-skeezy looking dude who doesn't have face tats who approaches in an easily observable fashion inside the Wal-Mart at 4 PM? No. That's when you pull out the social decency, but keep your distance, sir, techniques.

I'm usually a pretty friendly guy. Somebody who strikes up a conversation with me in the Wal-Mart checkout line doesn't get pistol whipped for it. I'm not nearly as approachable at, say, the ATM. Especially if it's after dark. Especially if the first awareness I have of your presence is when you fell under the sweep of my flashlight. I don't think any of that is irrational or hard to understand...that our response is conditioned by the totality of the circumstances. In my area just about every street robbery that has occurred in the last 12-20 months has been exactly this sort of scenario. After dark, multiple attackers, people typically on foot walking to and from various rental complexes popular with students. It's so predictable that the police report can literally have just the names of the victim from the last report changed and be accurate to what happened.

The circumstances in the article scream bad news, and that's why I'm not going to be a friendly guy should I find myself forced to be in those circumstances. I don't think we're really disagreeing, here...I think we both have the same concepts in mind, just a different concept of what the other guy is thinking. In a higher risk situation I'm going to have a demeanor that's tuned to the level of risk I perceive in the situation and from the individual(s) who are attempting the approach. If I'm in what I perceive as a low risk environment and I'm approached by what I perceive is a low risk individual, I'm likely to use very subtle actions to manage this contact. The response gets less subtle as the assessment of the situation and individual gets less pleasant.

TGS
05-17-2012, 04:15 PM
Now do I pull out the same approach to a not-skeezy looking dude who doesn't have face tats who approaches in an easily observable fashion inside the Wal-Mart at 4 PM? No. That's when you pull out the social decency, but keep your distance, sir, techniques.


Well, this is the blanket statement that you made:


Strangers who approach should be treated with caution during daylight hours.

Strangers who approach after dark? Open hostility.

Dropkick
05-17-2012, 04:40 PM
I think you guys are both right, but there is a time and place for each method.

You can't always treat the nails like screws, or the screws like nails.

EVP
05-17-2012, 06:05 PM
Can someone please define "MUC"?

Cecil Burch
05-17-2012, 06:14 PM
Can someone please define "MUC"?

Managing Unknown Contacts - going beyond "awareness" into an actual physical and mental action in relation to unknowns who may present a threat. It is a term coined by SouthNarc of ECQC fame (www.shivworks.com).

MEH
05-17-2012, 06:15 PM
Type at same time. See above. :)

fixer
05-18-2012, 06:27 AM
wow. crazy video. Looked like a fairly nice neighborhood too.

I think those fellas had experience in doing that at least once before.

RoyGBiv
05-21-2012, 01:43 PM
Three arrested.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/may/21/4/police-update-on-soldiers-beating-suspects-bail-he-ar-406108/

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/article/182323/28/Third-Suspect-Arrested-in-Fla-Soldier-Beating

fixer
05-27-2012, 09:11 AM
Three arrested.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/may/21/4/police-update-on-soldiers-beating-suspects-bail-he-ar-406108/

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/article/182323/28/Third-Suspect-Arrested-in-Fla-Soldier-Beating

Thanks for posting.

Glad they found them.

voodoo_man
05-29-2012, 02:43 PM
Three arrested.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/may/21/4/police-update-on-soldiers-beating-suspects-bail-he-ar-406108/

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/article/182323/28/Third-Suspect-Arrested-in-Fla-Soldier-Beating

Wow, they look like three upstanding members of society.

Good stuff, hope they make an example out of them, but chances are they will not.

skoro
05-29-2012, 07:52 PM
hmmm...

Seems to me that staying out of bad neighborhoods at 3 am is a good way to avoid this kind of trouble.

But then, what the heck do I know.

Tamara
05-29-2012, 07:55 PM
hmmm...

Seems to me that staying out of bad neighborhoods at 3 am is a good way to avoid this kind of trouble.

It'll sure cut down your chances of being on the morning news programs. :p

RoyGBiv
05-29-2012, 08:08 PM
hmmm...

Seems to me that staying out of bad neighborhoods at 3 am is a good way to avoid this kind of trouble.

His car broke down.
Your life's journey never took you through a bad neighborhood?
You're ready to blame the soldier for being in the wrong place?

At what point do you feel the need to draw the line and stop seceding ground to criminals?
My parents lived in the same house long enough to see their neighborhood "turn". Are they also guilty of being in the wrong place?


But then, what the heck do I know.
Seems rhetorical... so I'll defer.

skoro
05-29-2012, 09:15 PM
His car broke down.

At 3 am in a bad neighborhood.



Your life's journey never took you through a bad neighborhood?

I always tried to minimize that sort of thing. And I avoided being attacked by a group of scumbags. Even when I was young and in the USMC.


You're ready to blame the soldier for being in the wrong place?

You'd have a hard time finding anywhere that I'd said such a thing. Sounds like your words, not mine.



At what point do you feel the need to draw the line and stop seceding ground to criminals?

At what point does walking through a criminal neighborhood at 3 am become "standing up to criminals?"



My parents lived in the same house long enough to see their neighborhood "turn". Are they also guilty of being in the wrong place?

Only you can answer that one.



Seems rhetorical... so I'll defer.

It was rhetorical.

Tamara
05-29-2012, 09:54 PM
You're ready to blame the soldier for being in the wrong place?

Seriously, dude?

"Lessons Learned" != "Victim Blaming"

I take it as a reminder to mind my route.

RoyGBiv
05-30-2012, 07:54 AM
You're ready to blame the soldier for being in the wrong place?



You'd have a hard time finding anywhere that I'd said such a thing. Sounds like your words, not mine.


You're making a joke there.. right?
This isn't blaming the victim??


hmmm...

Seems to me that staying out of bad neighborhoods at 3 am is a good way to avoid this kind of trouble.

But then, what the heck do I know.

The attack took place a stone's throw from his "office" at McDill.
I haven't read anywhere exactly why he was out and about at that hour...
Just got off duty?... Returning from base??

skoro
05-30-2012, 08:09 AM
You're making a joke there.. right?
This isn't blaming the victim??



The attack took place a stone's throw from his "office" at McDill.
I haven't read anywhere exactly why he was out and about at that hour...
Just got off duty?... Returning from base??

Hey, Roy...

I don't know why you're looking for a fight here. But I'm not. Take this incident however you choose and I'll do the same.

Have a great day. :)

RoyGBiv
05-30-2012, 09:03 AM
Hey, Roy...

I don't know why you're looking for a fight here. But I'm not. Take this incident however you choose and I'll do the same.

Have a great day. :)
Peace..

mizer67
05-31-2012, 06:45 PM
hmmm...

Seems to me that staying out of bad neighborhoods at 3 am is a good way to avoid this kind of trouble.

But then, what the heck do I know.

Frankly, if you don't know the area or circumstances of why he was out at 3 AM, I'd hold the pithy comments.

He had no choice but to go through South Tampa if he wanted to get to/from McDill.

Joe Mamma
06-01-2012, 03:26 PM
Seems to me that staying out of bad neighborhoods at 3 am is a good way to avoid this kind of trouble.


I'm just judging by the video. But it looks like a pretty nice neighborhood to me.

Joe Mamma

RoyGBiv
06-01-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm just judging by the video. But it looks like a pretty nice neighborhood to me.

Joe Mamma

Not so much.... and if you're leaving McDill, it's unavoidable.
http://www.spotcrime.com/fl/tampa/virginia+park

And... Nice handle JM! :D

skoro
06-02-2012, 06:33 PM
Frankly, if you don't know the area or circumstances of why he was out at 3 AM, I'd hold the pithy comments.

He had no choice but to go through South Tampa if he wanted to get to/from McDill.

Then please allow me to amend my comment to:

When out on the streets at 3 a.m. in most neighborhoods, one is unlikely to meet up with a gang of well-wishers. :)