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Shotgun
03-19-2020, 04:40 PM
Loved my EoTech. It ate batteries like Scooby Snacks, but that holographic sight was very nice. Now I am looking for something more reliable, at least something I don't have to worry about the batteries being dead on a monthly basis.

What would you guys put on an AR-15 carbine? Aimpoint Pro perhaps?


Yes, I know there is a lot to read here about RDS, but I do not have the time to research at the moment. I am going to see what may be the top two or three recommendations and then start researching with those in mind.


Haven't been on PF with much frequency over the past year or so, but I still occasionally visit to see what is going on.

Wayne Dobbs
03-19-2020, 04:42 PM
Loved my EoTech. It ate batteries like Scooby Snacks, but that holographic sight was very nice. Now I am looking for something more reliable, at least something I don't have to worry about the batteries being dead on a monthly basis.

What would you guys put on an AR-15 carbine? Aimpoint Pro perhaps?


Yes, I know there is a lot to read here about RDS, but I do not have the time to research at the moment. I am going to see what may be the top two or three recommendations and then start researching with those in mind.


Haven't been on PF with much frequency over the past year or so, but I still occasionally visit to see what is going on.

Aimpoint PRO...I'm a bit biased, but I can go through the miseries of EOTech in vivid and personal detail. PM me on this if you decide to do that and before you spend your money.

dontshakepandas
03-19-2020, 04:50 PM
I really like my Aimpoint Comp M5.

I've had a PRO and a T2 previously. I preferred the size/weight of the T2, but the brightness controls of the PRO. The Comp M5 combines the best of both.

Darth_Uno
03-19-2020, 04:59 PM
If you liked the reticle, the new MRO HD is probably a better option.

Wayne Dobbs
03-19-2020, 05:17 PM
If you liked the reticle, the new MRO HD is probably a better option.

That is likely a nice sight, but at $650-700 it better be.

UNM1136
03-19-2020, 05:22 PM
I think I recall that reading this forum that returning a dead Eothingy to the mothership nets a decent discount on a new one....that said, I would use one of the competitors on a working gun. On a fun gun I would use the discount since I have a coule of old N battery Eos running around.

pat

Darth_Uno
03-19-2020, 05:33 PM
That is likely a nice sight, but at $650-700 it better be.

I own 3 MRO's, so you could say I'm a fan. If you like the 68 MOA circle on the HD, I'd say go for it. Having owned Eotechs, I don't see the plus side to the "ring of death". YMMV, it's (very likely) possible I'm not nearly good enough to have an opinion of any weight.

EricG
03-19-2020, 08:02 PM
Trijicon MRO.
Durable, long battery life and a field of view I like.

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Wake27
03-19-2020, 08:25 PM
What model EOTech? And unless they fixed it, the MRO has pretty bad parallax.


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SJC3081
03-19-2020, 08:27 PM
Aimpoint M4s, any Micro Aimpoint, Pro, and budget Primary Arms https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50k-hour-battery-life-red-dot.

Mjolnir
03-19-2020, 08:31 PM
Aimpoint M4s, any Micro Aimpoint, Pro, and budget Primary Arms https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50k-hour-battery-life-red-dot.

Essentially!


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Matt O
03-19-2020, 09:49 PM
What model eotech and are they unwilling to fix it? I heard all sorts of horror stories about eotechs before I got one, but mine is been without any sort of issue for several years now.

I’ve also seen some BTDT guys recommending the holosun rifle optics, particularly if you want to maintain the donut of death.


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HCM
03-19-2020, 10:10 PM
Loved my EoTech. It ate batteries like Scooby Snacks, but that holographic sight was very nice. Now I am looking for something more reliable, at least something I don't have to worry about the batteries being dead on a monthly basis.

What would you guys put on an AR-15 carbine? Aimpoint Pro perhaps?


Yes, I know there is a lot to read here about RDS, but I do not have the time to research at the moment. I am going to see what may be the top two or three recommendations and then start researching with those in mind.


Haven't been on PF with much frequency over the past year or so, but I still occasionally visit to see what is going on.

Having at one time managed a “fleet”of 130 M 4s with EoTechs my recommendation would be an Aimpoint. As mentioned the pro is an excellent value.

How old is the EO Tech? Is it pre-2009/pre-new logo?

However I ask because whether you want to stick with EoTech or not, they do not repair pre-2009 Optics, however if you send back the nonfunctional optic they will let you buy any other EO Tech optic of your choice for half price.

HCM
03-19-2020, 10:14 PM
I think I recall that reading this forum that returning a dead Eothingy to the mothership nets a decent discount on a new one....that said, I would use one of the competitors on a working gun. On a fun gun I would use the discount since I have a coule of old N battery Eos running around.

pat

That was me. 2007 vintage 512 had the window de laminate.sent it back and bought a tan EXPS-3 for 1/2 price.

Wake27
03-19-2020, 10:23 PM
Having at one time managed a “fleet”of 130 M 4s with EoTechs my recommendation would be an Aimpoint. As mentioned the pro is an excellent value.

How old is the EO Tech? Is it pre-2009/pre-new logo?

However I ask because whether you want to stick with EoTech or not, they do not repair pre-2009 Optics, however if you send back the nonfunctional optic they will let you buy any other EO Tech optic of your choice for half price.

Yeah but I've seen plenty of broken Aimpoints and plenty of old 512s that have gotten the shit beat out of them and still work - we currently have a few of each at work. There's little doubt that Aimpoint is more durable, but IMO the comparison between the two is similar to the AK being inaccurate and the AR being unreliable - some truth but a lot of BS. My HD gun wears an Aimpoint but it also has fixed BUIS because mine has died a few times. I don't think I'll ever buy another one, especially with how well all three of my Vortex Crossfires have been doing. Plus something with an etched reticle is always going to beat an RDS for ultimate SHTF optic IMO.

OP - you didn't mention the purpose of the AR. If its anything other than your number one HD gun, budget red dots have come along way in the last few years. PSA has a solid deal on the new Vortex Crossfires with their 50kish battery life for about $120 shipped. Its worth a look. Lots of people like the similar Sig and Holosun offerings but I prefer the company behind the Crossfire to those.

HCM
03-20-2020, 12:23 AM
Yeah but I've seen plenty of broken Aimpoints and plenty of old 512s that have gotten the shit beat out of them and still work - we currently have a few of each at work. There's little doubt that Aimpoint is more durable, but IMO the comparison between the two is similar to the AK being inaccurate and the AR being unreliable - some truth but a lot of BS. My HD gun wears an Aimpoint but it also has fixed BUIS because mine has died a few times. I don't think I'll ever buy another one, especially with how well all three of my Vortex Crossfires have been doing. Plus something with an etched reticle is always going to beat an RDS for ultimate SHTF optic IMO.

OP - you didn't mention the purpose of the AR. If its anything other than your number one HD gun, budget red dots have come along way in the last few years. PSA has a solid deal on the new Vortex Crossfires with their 50kish battery life for about $120 shipped. Its worth a look. Lots of people like the similar Sig and Holosun offerings but I prefer the company behind the Crossfire to those.

Aimpoint break too but at a FAR lower rate than the old (pre 2009) EoTechs.

However I’ve yet to see a Aimpoint loose zero due to internal failures, or have the adjustments move backwards, or fail due to de lamination of the lenses. And I don’t need aluminum foil and crazy glue to keep my old (1999) Aimpoint going.

The Comp M /M2 had issues with the rheostat breaking but otherwise were GTG. The M4 is a tank. The pre 2009 552s were shit. The sideways battery models (XPS2) were better but we only had about 25 before transitioning to H1s.

I’ve been using RDS on carbines since 1991 (Ultra Dot in a weaver mount). Since then, based on hundreds of EoTechs, and hundreds of Aimpoint H1s, Aimpoint is the clear winner in durability and battery life.

Wake27
03-20-2020, 12:46 AM
Aimpoint break too but at a FAR lower rate than the old (pre 2009) EoTechs.

However I’ve yet to see a Aimpoint loose zero due to internal failures, or have the adjustments move backwards, or fail due to de lamination of the lenses. And I don’t need aluminum foil and crazy glue to keep my old (1999) Aimpoint going.

The Comp M /M2 had issues with the rheostat breaking but otherwise were GTG. The M4 is a tank. The pre 2009 552s were shit. The sideways battery models (XPS2) were better but we only had about 25 before transitioning to H1s.

I’ve been using RDS on carbines since 1991 (Ultra Dot in a weaver mount). Since then, based on hundreds of EoTechs, and hundreds of Aimpoint H1s, Aimpoint is the clear winner in durability and battery life.

I don't necessarily disagree which is why I said they're more durable, but I do think they're over-hyped.

javemtr
03-20-2020, 02:07 AM
What model EOTech? And unless they fixed it, the MRO has pretty bad parallax.
Testing of the MRO: https://youtu.be/d2vEWaXhGIY

BigT
03-20-2020, 03:02 AM
We've had really good results with the Holosun 510

Maca
03-20-2020, 07:12 AM
Take a look at the Vortex Razor UH1 if you prefer the dot in circle aiming point.

I ran it side by side with an XP3 and liked it better. Has been totally reliable as well.

Tokarev
03-20-2020, 08:38 AM
I don't necessarily disagree which is why I said they're more durable, but I do think they're over-hyped.We have over 600 of the old 500 series EOTECH optics in my work area. Most of these have been in near constant use for years and still work fine. Problems with emitters falling out inside the optic do pop up from time to time. Other problems exist such as delamination of the glass. Other issues, like loosing the little rubber battery bumpers, pop up too.

We've slowly (as budget allows) been trying to replace all the old optics with newer stuff and have a couple hundred SIG Romeo4M and 4T models issued out as well as a bunch of Aimpoint PRO and T1/T2 optics. The PRO did occasionally have issues with the mount not staying tight but Aimpoint replaced our mounts under warranty. I think to date I've seen one Romeo fail. It would not produce the center dot. Only the outer ring would illuminate. So the optic still would have worked in a pinch.

The newer EOTECH sights made after 2016 should be good to go and the optic seems to have been generally refined. With that said, I think I'd take a good look at the Romeo4T if I wanted a new red dot with a circle dot reticle. Nice size and weight. Good battery life and common T1 mount options. Price is usually just a bit under $400 from online retailers.

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Tokarev
03-20-2020, 08:41 AM
Testing of the MRO: https://youtu.be/d2vEWaXhGIYWe have a handful of these in service. They seem to work well but most guys complain about the brightness adjustment. The optic needs more "steps" since one setting may be too dim while the next one up may be too bright. This seems to especially be true when running with night vision.

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Wayne Dobbs
03-20-2020, 09:52 AM
The irony of touting Chinese optics continues to amaze me. They stole the technology from the folks who developed it, used what is essentially slave labor to manufacture it and then purposely let a global pandemic loose on us, but we like it because it's cheap. SMH:mad:

AMC
03-20-2020, 10:52 AM
The irony of touting Chinese optics continues to amaze me. They stole the technology from the folks who developed it, used what is essentially slave labor to manufacture it and then purposely let a global pandemic loose on us, but we like it because it's cheap. SMH:mad:

Yeah this. Was thinking of grabbing a Holosun for a game gun. Now, no way. Matt Best needs to come out with a "F#%# China!" song.

vcdgrips
03-20-2020, 11:34 AM
I sold my EOTech (rev E 552/AA model) back when they were buying them back for 400ish. I bought and Aimpoint Pro and have not looked back.

OUTSIDE OF MY LANE-If they was a LPVO that was as rugged as the Aimpoint Pro at 600ish (v. 400 ish for the AP) that took readily avail, cheap batteries, I might/could be tempted to go that way.

Wake27
03-20-2020, 11:48 AM
The irony of touting Chinese optics continues to amaze me. They stole the technology from the folks who developed it, used what is essentially slave labor to manufacture it and then purposely let a global pandemic loose on us, but we like it because it's cheap. SMH:mad:

Stupid cheap compared to the alternatives. At the price I paid last night for another Crossfire, I can buy a little over five of those for one T-2. And that T-2 is the cheapest I can find it right now, but it doesn't even come with a mount. If I had shit tons of money then I wouldn't hesitate to only use gucci stuff, but that's not real life for most people. Even for the price of the PRO, I can get three Crossfires and have money left over. Plus I get a low and lower 1/3 mount, neither of which have the terrible form factor of the massive thumbscrew. Plus its smaller, lighter, and fills more roles like an offset RDS next to my Razor. I care about the factors you stated (though I don't necessarily believe the released COVID on purpose), but not so much that the math and money don't matter.

lwt16
03-20-2020, 12:00 PM
My Aimpoint PRO (personal, not duty) has been rock solid. The battery life isn't as long term as touted, but still a good, solid optic for someone like me that wants to slap it on, zero it, and forget about it.

Tokarev
03-20-2020, 12:01 PM
OUTSIDE OF MY LANE-If they was a LPVO that was as rugged as the Aimpoint Pro at 600ish (v. 400 ish for the AP) that took readily avail, cheap batteries, I might/could be tempted to go that way.

The Steiner P4XI gets good reviews. It takes a 2032 battery and is in use with Phoenix PD as well as others.

I don't have a bunch of experience with the P4 but it sure seems to check a bunch of boxes. Price being one of them.

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Wake27
03-20-2020, 12:25 PM
The Steiner P4XI gets good reviews. It takes a 2032 battery and is in use with Phoenix PD as well as others.

I don't have a bunch of experience with the P4 but it sure seems to check a bunch of boxes. Price being one of them.

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It'll cost a fair bit more than a PRO with the mount though, and I'd heard Steiner actually increased the price recently. I also doubt that it can match the durability of the PRO, but would agree that its probably the closest thing to meeting those guidelines. I liked mine and only sold it to get a Razor.

EricG
03-20-2020, 12:29 PM
Also, keep in mind..going from an Eotech FOV to a micro RDS toilet paper roll FOV will be quite the adjustment.

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Wake27
03-20-2020, 12:33 PM
Also, keep in mind..going from an Eotech FOV to a micro RDS toilet paper roll FOV will be quite the adjustment.

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I think that depends on the person, I never noticed that.


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Shotgun
03-20-2020, 12:48 PM
Thank you to everyone! PF continues to be the best firearms forum on the net!


What model EOTech?

The "EOTech Battery Eater." (An old 512.)


How old is the EO Tech? Is it pre-2009/pre-new logo?

However I ask because whether you want to stick with EoTech or not, they do not repair pre-2009 Optics, however if you send back the nonfunctional optic they will let you buy any other EO Tech optic of your choice for half price.

Pre-2009. I haven't shopped sights in forever and did not even know EOTech had a new logo until my research started after the original post here. Thank you for the information on the half price deal. I may ship the old 512 in for something new.


My Aimpoint PRO (personal, not duty) has been rock solid. The battery life isn't as long term as touted, but still a good, solid optic for someone like me that wants to slap it on, zero it, and forget about it.

Exactly. For the curious here, I went with an Aimpoint Pro. Why? After having an optic that repeatedly needed new batteries, I very much like the idea of having something that I can leave turned on, and that will stay on, for a very, very long time without having to worry about battery replacement. This particular AR is primarily for home defense (I have been flamed here for using an EOTech for that purpose), but it sees use at the range (everyone needs to practice) and out in the country for hogs and coyotes when feeding cows. It's frustrating to have a target and the batteries have literally gone dead during the ride.

EricG
03-20-2020, 12:52 PM
Thank you to everyone! PF continues to be the best firearms forum on the net!



The "EOTech Battery Eater." (An old 512.)



Pre-2009. I haven't shopped sights in forever and did not even know EOTech had a new logo until my research started after the original post here. Thank you for the information on the half price deal. I may ship the old 512 in for something new.



Exactly. For the curious here, I went with an Aimpoint Pro. Why? After having an optic that repeatedly needed new batteries, I very much like the idea of having something that I can leave turned on, and that will stay on, for a very, very long time without having to worry about battery replacement. This particular AR is primarily for home defense (I have been flamed here for using an EOTech for that purpose), but it sees use at the range (everyone needs to practice) and out in the country for hogs and coyotes when feeding cows. It's frustrating to have a target and the batteries have literally gone dead during the ride.Good call on the PRO. Great optic for the $$$.

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Wake27
03-20-2020, 12:54 PM
Thank you to everyone! PF continues to be the best firearms forum on the net!



The "EOTech Battery Eater." (An old 512.)



Pre-2009. I haven't shopped sights in forever and did not even know EOTech had a new logo until my research started after the original post here. Thank you for the information on the half price deal. I may ship the old 512 in for something new.



Exactly. For the curious here, I went with an Aimpoint Pro. Why? After having an optic that repeatedly needed new batteries, I very much like the idea of having something that I can leave turned on, and that will stay on, for a very, very long time without having to worry about battery replacement. This particular AR is primarily for home defense (I have been flamed here for using an EOTech for that purpose), but it sees use at the range (everyone needs to practice) and out in the country for hogs and coyotes when feeding cows. It's frustrating to have a target and the batteries have literally gone dead during the ride.

Just keep in mind that the 50k battery life is at a relatively low setting, maybe 6? For every setting above that, it drops drastically but last I checked, that wasn't in the manual. I actually had to email Aimpoint to get the estimated battery life on other settings (Vortex is the same way FWIW). I like my dots bright, especially since I have Scout lights on all of my guns, so I have to keep them up pretty high so as not to get washed out when I hit the light. I usually am replacing batteries every 6-8 months or so.

Shotgun
03-20-2020, 12:57 PM
I usually am replacing batteries every 6-8 months or so.

And to me with my experience, that would still be awesome!

HCM
03-20-2020, 01:05 PM
Thank you to everyone! PF continues to be the best firearms forum on the net!



The "EOTech Battery Eater." (An old 512.)



Pre-2009. I haven't shopped sights in forever and did not even know EOTech had a new logo until my research started after the original post here. Thank you for the information on the half price deal. I may ship the old 512 in for something new.



Exactly. For the curious here, I went with an Aimpoint Pro. Why? After having an optic that repeatedly needed new batteries, I very much like the idea of having something that I can leave turned on, and that will stay on, for a very, very long time without having to worry about battery replacement. This particular AR is primarily for home defense (I have been flamed here for using an EOTech for that purpose), but it sees use at the range (everyone needs to practice) and out in the country for hogs and coyotes when feeding cows. It's frustrating to have a target and the batteries have literally gone dead during the ride.

If you do go for a new EO my experience has been the sideways battery models > the longways battery models.

lwt16
03-20-2020, 01:19 PM
Six to seven months cell life here too. Setting 7.

HCM
03-20-2020, 01:53 PM
I think that depends on the person, I never noticed that.


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I agree. If you are properly target focused and don’t search through your optic, which you shouldn’t going from the EO to the micro is not a big deal.

The only significant difference I have seen is using The RDS for passive aiming with night vision. They’re the bigger FOV of the EO Tech allows much greater light transmission.

HCM
03-20-2020, 01:55 PM
Just keep in mind that the 50k battery life is at a relatively low setting, maybe 6? For every setting above that, it drops drastically but last I checked, that wasn't in the manual. I actually had to email Aimpoint to get the estimated battery life on other settings (Vortex is the same way FWIW). I like my dots bright, especially since I have Scout lights on all of my guns, so I have to keep them up pretty high so as not to get washed out when I hit the light. I usually am replacing batteries every 6-8 months or so.

We leave our H-1s on at work all the time on a default setting of seven or eight. Changing batteries once a year we’ve not had any issues.

Wake27
03-20-2020, 02:27 PM
We leave our H-1s on at work all the time on a default setting of seven or eight. Changing batteries once a year we’ve not had any issues.

Found the email from the Aimpoint rep with battery life estimates in hours. "Position 9 = 25,000. 10 = 12,500. 11 = 6,250. 12 = 3,125. Factor in environmental and psychical influence on the battery as well."

HCM
03-20-2020, 02:30 PM
Found the email from the Aimpoint rep with battery life estimates in hours. "Position 9 = 25,000. 10 = 12,500. 11 = 6,250. 12 = 3,125. Factor in environmental and psychical influence on the battery as well."

In contrast, the only way to keep the AAs in our old 552s from dying in the TX heat between quarterly qualifications was lithium AAs.

Wake27
03-20-2020, 02:40 PM
In contrast, the only way to keep the AAs in our old 552s from dying in the TX heat between quarterly qualifications was lithium AAs.

No disagreement that the Aimpoints will run longer, I just feel that the 50k battery life gets over-hyped and its important for the end user to understand that may not be the case. I've had two or three times where I picked up my HD gun with a T1 or T2 and it was dead. The benefit to the Eotechs for me is that I've always known when it was dying because its only on when I'm using it and it flashes to notify me. This is with my EXPS though, I've had older models die while off due to battery drain so I should say benefit to the good EOTechs.

Tokarev
03-20-2020, 03:04 PM
...Eotechs...always known when it was dying because its only on when I'm using it and it flashes to notify me.

It would be nice to see Aimpoint add something like this into their circuitry.

It would also be nice to see an Aimpoint with a circle dot reticle. I like the dot personally but I know plenty of people who like a circle dot. The MRO is available with this now so maybe Aimpoint will do something similar.

I'd love to see Aimpoint make an actual rifle scope. Something 1-4 would be fine for carbine use but I guess market forces would demand it be at least 6x at the top end. Anyway, something with Aimpoint's brightness and battery life would be nifty especially if they could sell it for a Grand-ish.


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Tokarev
03-20-2020, 03:13 PM
The irony of touting Chinese optics continues to amaze me. They stole the technology from the folks who developed it, used what is essentially slave labor to manufacture it and then purposely let a global pandemic loose on us, but we like it because it's cheap. SMH:mad:Industrial espionage is part of doing business. Right or wrong or for better or worse. Look at all the 1911, Glock, AR and Remington 700 clones.

Buy American is great but what's out there for US red dots other than the MRO? Leupold makes a few red dots but they are either dismissed as junk or are expensive. I like the LCO well enough but it could use some minor tweaks. Does its performance vs other quality red dots justify the additional money?

Ideally Aimpoint should make a "pro" version of the T2. Something with a less expensive housing and maybe a cheaper coating on the lenses. Something with about 90% of the T2's specs that's $25% cheaper. I think something that's priced better in the market would certainly help steal some sales back from SIG.

Yes. I know Aimpoint is made in Sweden....

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Wayne Dobbs
03-20-2020, 05:02 PM
Industrial espionage is part of doing business. Right or wrong or for better or worse. Look at all the 1911, Glock, AR and Remington 700 clones.

Buy American is great but what's out there for US red dots other than the MRO? Leupold makes a few red dots but they are either dismissed as junk or are expensive. I like the LCO well enough but it could use some minor tweaks. Does its performance vs other quality red dots justify the additional money?

Ideally Aimpoint should make a "pro" version of the T2. Something with a less expensive housing and maybe a cheaper coating on the lenses. Something with about 90% of the T2's specs that's $25% cheaper. I think something that's priced better in the market would certainly help steal some sales back from SIG.

Yes. I know Aimpoint is made in Sweden....

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Aimpoint is a Swedish product for sure; Sig is Chinese (components imported from Holosun, I believe, and then assembled in US). You're not the first one who has asked for a Micro sight platform at a price point. And yes, the performance and quality is worth the money over the others and even more so now. Plus, see how many of those optics can or will be repaired by their source vendors. We're still repairing (at no cost) optics made in the 1990s. I'm not going to run on here, but the guys on here that know me, know I don't bullshit anybody. Aimpoint's quality, durability and longevity is well worth the price, especially when not made by what is basically slave labor.

As for the Chinese and the low-cost mentality they've addicted us to, I'm wondering if the lives of 9,000,000 plus Americans will have been worth it? This regime concealed, covered up and arrested folks who were warning about this in December/January in the PRC. They intentionally put all of us and our loved ones at risk of our lives. That number, by the way is based on 70% of 330,000,000 being infected (the number feared to get sick) with a 4% fatality rate. We are teetering on the edge of complete economic disaster and a loss of life we've never had a frame of reference for, directly due to the actions of the PRC. My figures are worst case ones, but are based on the raw data coming out every day. Barring a miracle of some kind of broadly available treatment, we're going to lose millions to this. Still want Chinese optics and "stuff"??

Tokarev
03-20-2020, 05:11 PM
I don't bullshit anybody. Aimpoint's quality, durability and longevity is well worth the price.

I never meant to imply you are trying to BS anyone. Apologies if I sounded like I'm accusing you.


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Dan_S
03-20-2020, 05:11 PM
Wayne Dobbs

Any way you can bend some ears there, and have someone make an optic those of us challenged by astigmatism can actually use?


If it weren’t for that I wouldn’t look at anything but aim point.....but given those realities, there’s no way I’d consider an aim point

Wayne Dobbs
03-20-2020, 05:17 PM
Wayne Dobbs

Any way you can bend some ears there, and have someone make an optic those of us challenged by astigmatism can actually use?


If it weren’t for that I wouldn’t look at anything but aim point.....but given those realities, there’s no way I’d consider an aim point

My astigmatism doesn't show up on H-2, T-2, ACRO or CompM5. I see a bit of distortion on PRO and CompM4, but if you're focusing on the dot and/or are shooting with an eye closed, you're not using the sight efficiently or correctly.

Wayne Dobbs
03-20-2020, 05:19 PM
I never meant to imply you are trying to BS anyone. Apologies if I sounded like I'm accusing you.


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Didn't think you were. I was simply stating that I'm the most non-sales guy in that whole organization when it comes to discussing/selling those or anything else. Quite a few folks here personally know me and that I am very straightforward (often to my detriment).

Tokarev
03-20-2020, 05:23 PM
Didn't think you were. I was simply stating that I'm the most non-sales guy in that whole organization when it comes to discussing/selling those or anything else. Quite a few folks here personally know me and that I am very straightforward (often to my detriment).10-4. Have a good weekend.

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Wake27
03-20-2020, 06:04 PM
Aimpoint is a Swedish product for sure; Sig is Chinese (components imported from Holosun, I believe, and then assembled in US). You're not the first one who has asked for a Micro sight platform at a price point. And yes, the performance and quality is worth the money over the others and even more so now. Plus, see how many of those optics can or will be repaired by their source vendors. We're still repairing (at no cost) optics made in the 1990s. I'm not going to run on here, but the guys on here that know me, know I don't bullshit anybody. Aimpoint's quality, durability and longevity is well worth the price, especially when not made by what is basically slave labor.

As for the Chinese and the low-cost mentality they've addicted us to, I'm wondering if the lives of 9,000,000 plus Americans will have been worth it? This regime concealed, covered up and arrested folks who were warning about this in December/January in the PRC. They intentionally put all of us and our loved ones at risk of our lives. That number, by the way is based on 70% of 330,000,000 being infected (the number feared to get sick) with a 4% fatality rate. We are teetering on the edge of complete economic disaster and a loss of life we've never had a frame of reference for, directly due to the actions of the PRC. My figures are worst case ones, but are based on the raw data coming out every day. Barring a miracle of some kind of broadly available treatment, we're going to lose millions to this. Still want Chinese optics and "stuff"??

Not worth it to me, and many others I’m willing to bet.

And I’m having trouble connecting covid to the companies that are involved with making those red dots.


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Matt O
03-20-2020, 06:57 PM
While anger at the Chinese gov with regard to COVID-19 is entirely correct and warranted, I’m confused as to what that has to do with Holosun as a company?

If they, for example, demonstrably stole tech or something like that I could absolutely see boycotting them, but if we avoid purchasing from any company whose government has done something underhanded or shitty, I’m afraid we wouldn’t be left with terribly many options.


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rob_s
03-21-2020, 07:46 AM
several years back the debate seemed to always center around Eotech vs Aimpoint, then Eotech pretty much shit themselves and are only now trying to claw their way out, and the Chinese knockoffs got better about the same time people got more accustomed to paying less for everything. Guys will complain that they can't afford an Aimpoint but they'll have 4 China turds on various guns that add up to more than the cost of the Aimpoint they can't afford, not to mention the cost of all those other guns. I'd rather have 1 gun with an Aimpoint than 3 with China turds (and I own some China turds too, but I also have at least one gun with an Aimpoint ;) ). Same bullshit for lights, IMO.

My favorite Eotech story, and lightbulb moment for me, was after spending a bunch of time in a bunch of classes taught by a bunch of "Tier 1" guys that spoke highly of the Eotech, and me not being able to reconcile their opinions against my own experience, finally one of them (in fact this was probably one of the last Tier 1 classes I took) said "yeah, the Eotech is great. yeah, they require a little maintenance, tug on the battery connectors, replace them when you have to, keep fresh batteries in them, check your zero against your irons..." when I realized that (a) in his former life he was generally picking the fight, not defending against being attacked and (b) it wasn't actually him doing any of that shit it was likely some armorer somewhere doing 90% of that stuff and more just to keep the Eotech running."

I don't believe that Eotechs just sponaneously combust or anything. when you compare them straight up to an Aimpoint (all of my context for this is at least 5 years old) you're going to see 2-10x the failure rate. for example, in all the classes I took in all the matches I shot in and ran, I never saw an Aimpoint go down for anything other than a battery. I saw countless Eotechs just simply stop. Yes, it may well be that 1% of Aimpoints fail and 5% of Eotechs did, but in my practical experience the fat that it was a 5x higher failure rate registered a lot more than the fact that the Eotech "only" had a 5% failure rate.

Lastly, as far as transitioning from a window to a tube, that's about as dumb as "my 14.5 inch pinned gun handles better than a 16 inch". That's a living room problem, not a range/real-world problem.

Dan_S
03-21-2020, 11:20 AM
My astigmatism doesn't show up on H-2, T-2, ACRO or CompM5. I see a bit of distortion on PRO and CompM4, but if you're focusing on the dot and/or are shooting with an eye closed, you're not using the sight efficiently or correctly.

So I have heard. However, I remain dubious in the value of something looking like a cross-section of the galaxy having any real use to me as a sighting device, unless I should need an aiming device for a rock-thrower, and until the company is ready to admit that some of us *might* have a legitimate issue, I guess I’ll have to continue over-looking them for another option.

Tokarev
03-21-2020, 12:00 PM
Just for the record; the two rifles I shoot most often are topped with Aimpoint red dots. One is an M4S on a Bobro mount. The other is an ACRO attached via a Reptilia mount.

The ACRO is intended for pistol but I've found it to work pretty well on the rifle. It is small and lightweight. Placement of the illumination controls work well. The dot is a little big for precision at distance but it still works okay with the brightness turned down a bit.

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Wake27
03-21-2020, 12:18 PM
So I have heard. However, I remain dubious in the value of something looking like a cross-section of the galaxy having any real use to me as a sighting device, unless I should need an aiming device for a rock-thrower, and until the company is ready to admit that some of us *might* have a legitimate issue, I guess I’ll have to continue over-looking them for another option.

I've heard that it can be different for each person. My buddy really wanted a T-2 but couldn't get mine to work with his astigmatism a few weeks ago so he went with an Elcan instead. Of course I didn't tell him he was using the sight wrong so maybe that would've fixed everything.

Wayne Dobbs
03-21-2020, 12:48 PM
So I have heard. However, I remain dubious in the value of something looking like a cross-section of the galaxy having any real use to me as a sighting device, unless I should need an aiming device for a rock-thrower, and until the company is ready to admit that some of us *might* have a legitimate issue, I guess I’ll have to continue over-looking them for another option.

Another approach is to get your astigmatism corrected with contacts or other corrective lenses. Then you should see a clean dot, too.

Dan_S
03-21-2020, 12:57 PM
Another approach is to get your astigmatism corrected with contacts or other corrective lenses. Then you should see a clean dot, too.

That’s a definite option, but one I’d prefer to avoid by simply having Aimpoint figure out a more realistic solution. Like, why can’t they make an Eotech-like device that isn’t an Eotech?

I can’t be such an outlier with this issue, and really don’t see why I should wear corrective lenses just for the astigmatism that’s doesn’t have any effect on the rest of my life...but, shrug.

WobblyPossum
03-21-2020, 01:20 PM
My astigmatism overwhelms the T2 I own as well. I’ve not been able to look through most red dot sights and actually see a circle. I’ve tried Aimpoint (M68 CCO, H1, T2, PRO), Trijicon (MRO, RMR), Holosun (507c), and Primary Arms (Advanced Microdot) red dots so far. The Trijicon RMR is the only one I’ve ever looked through and seen a clear, round dot. I thought that would mean the MRO would work for me but I tried one owned by a friend and found it suffered the same problems as most others. I would like to try an Eotech but don’t want to risk spending the money and finding it wanting like everything else.

Wake27
03-21-2020, 02:44 PM
My astigmatism overwhelms the T2 I own as well. I’ve not been able to look through most red dot sights and actually see a circle. I’ve tried Aimpoint (M68 CCO, H1, T2, PRO), Trijicon (MRO, RMR), Holosun (507c), and Primary Arms (Advanced Microdot) red dots so far. The Trijicon RMR is the only one I’ve ever looked through and seen a clear, round dot. I thought that would mean the MRO would work for me but I tried one owned by a friend and found it suffered the same problems as most others. I would like to try an Eotech but don’t want to risk spending the money and finding it wanting like everything else.

I think those are all true red dot sights vs actual holographics like the EOTechs. That difference is what makes them better for most people so it’s not just a brand thing.


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HCM
03-21-2020, 02:51 PM
That’s a definite option, but one I’d prefer to avoid by simply having Aimpoint figure out a more realistic solution. Like, why can’t they make an Eotech-like device that isn’t an Eotech?

I can’t be such an outlier with this issue, and really don’t see why I should wear corrective lenses just for the astigmatism that’s doesn’t have any effect on the rest of my life...but, shrug.

EoTech is a hologram not an LED. Holograms use several times the power of an LED so it’s a losing proposition.

Honestly the pixelated hologram in the EO looks like shit. The circle dots in the Holosun / SIG look way better plus they figured out how to make the dot brighter than the circle. I would not mind if Aimpoint paid back the Chinesium crew by ripping off their circle dot design and making it with better QC.

I’m really hoping to look through the new circle dot MRO soon.

HCM
03-21-2020, 02:59 PM
While anger at the Chinese gov with regard to COVID-19 is entirely correct and warranted, I’m confused as to what that has to do with Holosun as a company?

If they, for example, demonstrably stole tech or something like that I could absolutely see boycotting them, but if we avoid purchasing from any company whose government has done something underhanded or shitty, I’m afraid we wouldn’t be left with terribly many options.


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China copies everything, without regard for intellectual property, we don’t notice as much with firearms due to import restrictions but take a look at what is available from Norinco in Canada, South Africa etc. It’s not just something they do to the west, they do it each other too. From a Western POV it’s a very corrupt culture. From their POV if you are not cheating, stealing or cutting the line you are stupid.

The Chinese Government is an enemy of the West in general and the U.S. in particular. We are in a Cold War with them and have been since long before COVID-19. Conspiracy theories aside, their handling p, or more accurately non handling and cover up of the early stages of COVID-19 is directly responsible for the global pandemic so fuck them.

Matt O
03-21-2020, 03:42 PM
China copies everything, without regard for intellectual property, we don’t notice as much with firearms due to import restrictions but take a look at what is available from Norinco in Canada, South Africa etc. It’s not just something they do to the west, they do it each other too. From a Western POV it’s a very corrupt culture. From their POV if you are not cheating, stealing or cutting the line you are stupid.

The Chinese Government is an enemy of the West in general and the U.S. in particular. We are in a Cold War with them and have been since long before COVID-19. Conspiracy theories aside, their handling p, or more accurately non handling and cover up of the early stages of COVID-19 is directly responsible for the global pandemic so fuck them.

We're getting a bit off the original topic here, but just to be clear - respectfully, you didn't actually address my point. Yes, the Chinese gov is an enemy of the US - no argument there. Yes, many Chinese companies do copy intellectual property and engage in business practices that we find dishonest. I'm not a fan of supporting that sort of behavior.

So, to get to the relevant point - did Holosun steal intellectual property? They've got the 68 MOA ring, but I'm fairly certain Eotech's patent on this expired a while ago, hence why even Vortex has a similar offering. I also see innovations from Holosun that aren't there on similar US-side products - e.g. side-loading battery tray on the new pistol RDS, 50,000 hour battery life on their holographic carbine optic, etc. So, as per my original comment, if they demonstrably stole tech, then yeah we definitely shouldn't be supporting them. If someone wants to dismiss them simply because they're Chinese, that's certainly a valid personal choice, but then we shouldn't ascribe stolen tech as the reason.

WobblyPossum
03-21-2020, 04:10 PM
I think those are all true red dot sights vs actual holographics like the EOTechs. That difference is what makes them better for most people so it’s not just a brand thing.


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I think there’s more to it than LED red dot vs holographic sight. I believe the lens coating makes a big difference and is one of the reasons the RMR I tried had a perfect dot while the others do not but I can’t be sure. It’s just a feeling at the moment. I don’t have the resources to experiment.

HCM
03-21-2020, 06:52 PM
We're getting a bit off the original topic here, but just to be clear - respectfully, you didn't actually address my point. Yes, the Chinese gov is an enemy of the US - no argument there. Yes, many Chinese companies do copy intellectual property and engage in business practices that we find dishonest. I'm not a fan of supporting that sort of behavior.

So, to get to the relevant point - did Holosun steal intellectual property? They've got the 68 MOA ring, but I'm fairly certain Eotech's patent on this expired a while ago, hence why even Vortex has a similar offering. I also see innovations from Holosun that aren't there on similar US-side products - e.g. side-loading battery tray on the new pistol RDS, 50,000 hour battery life on their holographic carbine optic, etc. So, as per my original comment, if they demonstrably stole tech, then yeah we definitely shouldn't be supporting them. If someone wants to dismiss them simply because they're Chinese, that's certainly a valid personal choice, but then we shouldn't ascribe stolen tech as the reason.

I did answer your question but to spell it out I don’t think Holosuns ring is stolen from EOTech. In fact I think theirs is better than EoTechs, that why I want Aimpoint to steal it and put it in a duty quality optic. I’m sure Holosun could make a duty quality optic if someone was willing to pay for them, iPhones being an example of the QC China can execute if but that is unlikely to happen.

The original Holosun/PA/SIG micro design was definitely stolen from Aimpoints -1 micro series though.

Tokarev
03-22-2020, 10:11 AM
I’m sure Holosun could make a duty quality optic if someone was willing to pay...

Isn't this essentially what the SIG Romeo 4M and 4T are?

There's a newer version of the 4M that's apparently only available on the LE market. It looks like a T but doesn't have a solar panel. It also comes with the heavier T mount instead of the lighter slightly angled mount with Torx screw.

SIG seems shy about admitting that the Romeo is made by Holosun. Although the actual company may not be Holosun there is little doubt the optics originate in China. Possibly as a complete unit or possibly assembled in the US. Not sure what "assembly" consists of. It could mean the mount is put on and the optic is packaged for shipment on this end...


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vcdgrips
03-22-2020, 12:11 PM
Re astigmatism

For me, the 2 moa dot of the AP Pro "blooms" much less than the 65 moa reticle surrounding the 1 moa dot of an EOTech, especially when I am uncorrected (-2.25 L/-1.50 right).



My Rev E actually held up in an 08 Pat Roger (RIP) class in which I did well. In fairness, I had fresh duracell AA batteries and confirmed zero at the beginning of the class.
Between my worsening astigmatism, the dollar for dollar EO-Tech buy back given how they conducted themselves, and a video I watched (IIRC) with an AP shooting a 10 shot 2 ish inch group at 50 yds, then the AP was taken off the gun and skidded across the ground to another shooter, skidded back and re mounted only to not lose zero, I was ready for the switch.


FWIW-I have spoken with various FED/Local LEOS who used EOs and a few guys from CGSC/SAMS who were around guys who used the EOTech with good results. Most were scrupulous about fresh batteries, "spring/washer upgrades" and trying to keep the gun/optic in a temp controlled environment as possible. THis was particularly true in the AA models which have the batteries vertically oriented with the barrel of the gun.

HCM
03-22-2020, 02:21 PM
Isn't this essentially what the SIG Romeo 4M and 4T are?

There's a newer version of the 4M that's apparently only available on the LE market. It looks like a T but doesn't have a solar panel. It also comes with the heavier T mount instead of the lighter slightly angled mount with Torx screw.

SIG seems shy about admitting that the Romeo is made by Holosun. Although the actual company may not be Holosun there is little doubt the optics originate in China. Possibly as a complete unit or possibly assembled in the US. Not sure what "assembly" consists of. It could mean the mount is put on and the optic is packaged for shipment on this end...


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It’s what they purport to be. Both SIG and Holosun have different grades of optic. They are definitely better than the $99 models but neither of their higher grade optics are up to AP standards.

The PA, SIG and Holosun optics all appear to be made in the same factory. The assumption is that it’s Holosun’s factory but they may all just sub contract with the same factory.

Holosun has a higher grade / more durable optic called the “military model” (515 series) which apparently has gotten some foreign military sales in the Baltic. The 4M passed testing and was adopted by a large U.S. fed agency. There were some initial issues with the mounts /bad mount screws. Apparently some of the 4M optics have been dying at random, enough that they won’t be buying anymore 4Ms.

The parts for the Romeo 4M’s were made in the same factory but were brought into the U.S. as parts kits and assembled by a sub contractor in CA to make them Barry act compliant. That’s why the ones in gov contract packaging are marked “designed in Oregon, assembled in USA” while the ones in commercial packaging are marked “made in China.”

Nephrology
03-22-2020, 02:37 PM
Aimpoint PRO for cheap. I have a pair of them and they're rock solid. I got both of mine used on arfcom for about $300 each


It’s what they purport to be. Both SIG and Holosun have different grades of optic. They are definitely better than the $99 models but neither of their higher grade optics are up to AP standards.

The PA, SIG and Holosun optics all appear to be made in the same factory. The assumption is that it’s Holosun’s factory but they may all just sub contract with the same factory.

Holosun has a higher grade / more durable optic called the “military model” (515 series) which apparently has gotten some foreign military sales in the Baltic. The 4M passed testing and was adopted by a large U.S. fed agency. There were some initial issues with the mounts /bad mount screws. Apparently some of the 4M optics have been dying at random, enough that they won’t be buying anymore 4Ms.

The parts for the Romeo 4M’s were made in the same factory but were brought into the U.S. as parts kits and assembled by a sub contractor in CA to make them Barry act compliant. That’s why the ones in gov contract packaging are marked “designed in Oregon, assembled in USA” while the ones in commercial packaging are marked “made in China.”

I snagged a PA microdot with an ADM QD mount for $150 shipped on Arfcom. At that price I couldn't say no. However, it was tough to stomach buying a new PA dot knowing that I'd have to eventually replace the mount, which seems to be the most common point of failure on these optics. Buying new, the ADM mount + the dot get close to $225-250, and at that point an ARFCOM EE Aimpoint PRO is just an obviously better choice.

Tokarev
03-22-2020, 02:48 PM
It’s what they purport to be. Both SIG and Holosun have different grades of optic. They are definitely better than the $99 models but neither of their higher grade optics are up to AP standards.

The PA, SIG and Holosun optics all appear to be made in the same factory. The assumption is that it’s Holosun’s factory but they may all just sub contract with the same factory.

Holosun has a higher grade / more durable optic called the “military model” (515 series) which apparently has gotten some foreign military sales in the Baltic. The 4M passed testing and was adopted by a large U.S. fed agency. There were some initial issues with the mounts /bad mount screws. Apparently some of the 4M optics have been dying at random, enough that they won’t be buying anymore 4Ms.

The parts for the Romeo 4M’s were made in the same factory but were brought into the U.S. as parts kits and assembled by a sub contractor in CA to make them Barry act compliant. That’s why the ones in gov contract packaging are marked “designed in Oregon, assembled in USA” while the ones in commercial packaging are marked “made in China.”

Definitely a confusing series of red dots from SIG. They seem to introduce/discontinue red dots at random. The 4M line has been discontinued and/or dropped from our optics contract in favor of the more expensive 4T. With that said, I was at a vendor event earlier this month and saw the new FBI spec 4MB. Black anodized housing, heavy duty mount. Overall a pretty decent looking little unit. I didn't get pricing info but assume it is $400.

We have a couple hundred 4M optics and a handful of T optics in use in my sector of AZ. Few have had any issues. Some issues such as battery cap damage are user error. SIG suggests tightening the cap with fingers and only using the coin slot to remove the cap. One recent complaint is that the M will reflect light inside the optic when used as just the right angle with the sun. This reflection will cause a "ghost dot" to appear and can be confusing for the shooter. Not an exclusive problem to SIG by the way...

The T is definitely a nicer unit. Better mount. Better finish. Time will tell if they work any better than anything else. As I think I mentioned, we have had one T fail. The central dot would not activate but the circle piece still worked.

The "problem" I have with the T as a person who's responsible for spending some of our optics budget is price. For basically the same money I can get the Aimpoint PRO. Some people don't like the PRO because of its size and lack of anything other than a dot. Still, from a general use standpoint it is probably the current standard for LE red dots. Or at least it should be.

With that said I think we're all in agreement that Aimpoint needs a Romeo4T killer. A PRO version of the T2 would instantly become the go to must have for many people as long as it was priced in the mid 400 low 500 range.

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HCM
03-22-2020, 03:15 PM
Definitely a confusing series of red dots from SIG. They seem to introduce/discontinue red dots at random. The 4M line has been discontinued and/or dropped from our optics contract in favor of the more expensive 4T. With that said, I was at a vendor event earlier this month and saw the new FBI spec 4MB. Black anodized housing, heavy duty mount. Overall a pretty decent looking little unit. I didn't get pricing info but assume it is $400.

We have a couple hundred 4M optics and a handful of T optics in use in my sector of AZ. Few have had any issues. Some issues such as battery cap damage are user error. SIG suggests tightening the cap with fingers and only using the coin slot to remove the cap. One recent complaint is that the M will reflect light inside the optic when used as just the right angle with the sun. This reflection will cause a "ghost dot" to appear and can be confusing for the shooter. Not an exclusive problem to SIG by the way...

The T is definitely a nicer unit. Better mount. Better finish. Time will tell if they work any better than anything else. As I think I mentioned, we have had one T fail. The central dot would not activate but the circle piece still worked.

The "problem" I have with the T as a person who's responsible for spending some of our optics budget is price. For basically the same money I can get the Aimpoint PRO. Some people don't like the PRO because of its size and lack of anything other than a dot. Still, from a general use standpoint it is probably the current standard for LE red dots. Or at least it should be.

With that said I think we're all in agreement that Aimpoint needs a Romeo4T killer. A PRO version of the T2 would instantly become the go to must have for many people as long as it was priced in the mid 400 low 500 range.

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All the BU 4Ms I’ve seen have been the original. My understanding is SIG offered some alternate / improved optics (4T) and the response was “no thank you.”

A pro version of the T2/H2 would make sense as AP’s latest military sales all seem to be related to the M5 series.

Tokarev
03-22-2020, 04:01 PM
All the BU 4Ms I’ve seen have been the original. My understanding is SIG offered some alternate / improved optics (4T) and the response was “no thank you.”

A pro version of the T2/H2 would make sense as AP’s latest military sales all seem to be related to the M5 series.If you haven't seen the T, it has additional reticle optics vs the M. The M had a dot or a circle dot. The T has a dot, a circle dot, a series of four dots in a line for holdovers and a circle with the four dots inside. There's also a version of the T with marks left and right of the center dot for windage holds.

The M was a good value at $250 or so as originally priced on our contract. The T is probably still a good optic for $400 but the Trijicon MRO and Aimpoint PRO are in this ballpark so no reason to buy the T unless a shooter specifically wants the various reticle options.

Personally I don't mind a simple dot but I also understand why some people want a bit more info.

I agree that the MRO with a circle dot is an exciting development. Especially if we can get them for $400.

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Tokarev
03-24-2020, 09:07 AM
This just in:

Ann Arbor, Michigan (March 24, 2020) - American Holoptics LLC[emoji769], a privately-held U.S. company, has signed a definitive agreement with L3Harris[emoji769] to acquire EOTech[emoji2400].

The transaction is expected to close mid-2020 and is conditioned on customary closing conditions.

American Holoptics is a subsidiary of Koucar Management, whose strategic acquisitions of Elite Defense[emoji2400] and HEL Technologies[emoji769] represent a solid foundation of cutting-edge optical science and weapons systems distribution.

The American Holoptics leadership team has an exceptionally broad and deep experience providing high-quality products to the global weapons accessory market. In addition, this team has a proven track record of building customer-first and technology-focused organizations.

"We're proud to sign this agreement to join our team and technology with the EOTech brand," says Matt Van Haaren, CEO of American Holoptics. "

EOTech brings together technologically advanced product lines and production capabilities that will integrate well with our existing business and strategically expand our product portfolio.

Together we will deliver an all-new level of service, innovation, and integrity to military, law enforcement and civilian users around the world."


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