Learn Me: Kriss Vector SDP

[RevolverRob]

My shift over to 1911s has me typically traveling with a .45ACP firearm (or two) on my person. I am now considering adding a braced pistol in .45 to function as my travel long gun. There aren't a lot of options in this realm. The big four:

Kriss Vector SDP
B&T APC45
B&T GHM45
A-O Thompson Pistol
__

The B&Ts are interesting, but I'm reticent. For starters, the APC45 is ~2300 before you add a brace (which is running another 4 bills) and the GHM45 is cheaper (1600), but the brace is 600 bucks. The mags are also expensive at ~80-100 bucks a piece.

The Thompson - old school cool, but I think entirely impractical - mag quality seems hit and miss.

So that leaves the Vector SDP - Street price for a new Gen II is ~1300 bucks and Glock 21 mags are fairly inexpensive, the extensions they sell aren't terribly expensive either. And there are options from KCI and ETS as potentially cheap range mags.

Anyone have any experience behind the Vector? Yay? Nay? Gen 1 or Gen 2? I see advantages to the AR-Buffer tube type setup for a brace, but it seems to me the original version worked fine, especially with a tail-hook brace.

[awp_101]

I’ve got nothing on the Kriss but have you considered an AR45 from QC10 or Stern Defense (both blowback) or one of the DI versions from Macon Armory (IIRC)?

[RevolverRob]

I’ve got nothing on the Kriss but have you considered an AR45 from QC10 or Stern Defense (both blowback) or one of the DI versions from Macon Armory (IIRC)?

I don't really want to go AR, because I'd like something that can function stock folded and fit in a back-pack.

I did re-find the link I was looking for a company (Custom Smith Manufacturing) that does tail hook adapters for the B&T that are much more reasonably priced than B&T's bits. That makes the GHM45 a more attractive offering, but still, I'm leaning Kriss.

[psalms144.1]

Kriss brought us some of their early production Vectors way back in the day for an informal T&E. We were looking at options to replace our aging MP5KNs. I was not impressed, nor were any of the other guys on the team. Reliability was spotty, though I think that was most likely caused by the insanely high rate of fire on full auto. Semi-auto they ran OK, don't recall any issues. Accuracy was OK, not great, not terrible - about what I expected from a .45 ACP with a pistol-length barrel, and a far sight short of the MP5. I remember them being very heavy for the package size, so balance was a little funky.

[Grey]

Of your options I'd go APC45 just because it looks like a damn UMP45 and those were badass in Counter Strike.

But seriously I'd go with either the GHM or APC. If you're blasting with 45 whats a few extra hundo for the APC? :cool:

[RevolverRob]

Isn’t the world fucked up enough right now without you getting a gun-nerd boner over something so stupid that if it wasn’t for the fact it looks cool in video games it wouldn’t even exist? Is jonesing for the never-going-to-be-produced Six12 not enough for you anymore‽


:cool:

Why you gotta be a hater?

[LittleLebowski]

It was part of the deal when transferring PF to LL — I’m contractually obligated to shitpost for a term of not less than one year. Unfortunately for everyone, there’s still a few months left.

You signed so you put out.

[Mitch]

It was part of the deal when transferring PF to LL — I’m contractually obligated to shitpost for a term of not less than one year. Unfortunately for everyone, there’s still a few months left.

I’m really enjoying the shit posting.

[StraitR]

If you're looking at $2500ish 45acp sub guns, then the LWRC SMG-45 is worth a look. I've handled one, didn't get to shoot it, but it's pretty flippin' cool.

https://www.lwrci.com/SMG-45-Pistol-SB-Brace_p_268.html

[Hambo]

You signed so you put out.

Spoken like a true pimp.

[Grey]

Whatever you pick make sure it runs 45 super cause GJM and bears...

[nycnoob]

Isn’t the world fucked up enough right now without you getting a gun-nerd boner over something so stupid . . .


I once shot a Vector. I have a friend who runs gun range in Florida and he had one for rent and let me shoot it.
It was very unreliable and jammed every few rounds.

What was really funny was I had in my gun bag a gun with a very similar shape. I had the ZK-22 bullpup stock
for a 10/22 with me and we decided to compare guns. We both agreed that my 22lr was
more fun and more reliable than the Vector in 9mm.

https://www.aklysdefense.com/index.php/component/mijoshop/product/115-zk-22-bullpup-stock

ZK-22 Bullpup Stock: $284.99

So if you really want a fun range toy I suggest the Aklys stock (and a dremmel to get it working,
there was lots of plastic to be removed, during assembly, for smooth operation) and leave the
Vector to those who do not know any better.

[Default.mp3]

There's always the UMP clones: https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/products/omega-gideon-shadow-45-acp
https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/products/tommy-built-tactical-ksm-45

[Chuck Whitlock]

My shift over to 1911s has me typically traveling with a .45ACP firearm (or two) on my person. I am now considering adding a braced pistol in .45 to function as my travel long gun. There aren't a lot of options in this realm. The big four:

Kriss Vector SDP
B&T APC45
B&T GHM45
A-O Thompson Pistol
__

Rob,
Let me throw an outlier into the ring for your consideration:

https://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrp-xpkg-xxxx-xxxx-brhg.htm

A friend of mine has one of the carbine versions in .40 that was reliable when I went shooting with him....sample of one and all that. But they use Glock magazines, AR pistol grips and stocks (along with braces for the pistol versions, I'm assuming), and the entry cost is pretty reasonable.

[RevolverRob]

It was part of the deal when transferring PF to LL — I’m contractually obligated to shitpost for a term of not less than one year. Unfortunately for everyone, there’s still a few months left.

I just like having you around Tom, so whatever is clever.


You signed so you put out.

Remind me to always read the fine print on your contracts.


If you're looking at $2500ish 45acp sub guns, then the LWRC SMG-45 is worth a look. I've handled one, didn't get to shoot it, but it's pretty flippin' cool.

https://www.lwrci.com/SMG-45-Pistol-SB-Brace_p_268.html

It does look pretty awesome. But is it really distinct from a UMP, besides using AR bits and pieces?


Whatever you pick make sure it runs 45 super cause GJM and bears...

:cool:


I once shot a Vector. I have a friend who runs gun range in Florida and he had one for rent and let me shoot it.
It was very unreliable and jammed every few rounds.

See, this is interesting. I've read a mixture of reports and I am kind of getting the impression the Vector isn't super reliable. I'm also getting the impression that people aren't shooting them a lot, so it's tough to say.


There's always the UMP clones: https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/products/omega-gideon-shadow-45-acp
https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/products/tommy-built-tactical-ksm-45

Isn't Tommy Built the guy who builds like the best HK-clones on the planet? I thought I read that somewhere.


Rob,
Let me throw an outlier into the ring for your consideration:

https://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrp-xpkg-xxxx-xxxx-brhg.htm

A friend of mine has one of the carbine versions in .40 that was reliable when I went shooting with him....sample of one and all that. But they use Glock magazines, AR pistol grips and stocks (along with braces for the pistol versions, I'm assuming), and the entry cost is pretty reasonable.

Interesting piece Chuck, do you happen to know if it's basically just a mini-AR or do they use a different type of recoil spring system to allow the stock to be folded without a LAW-type adapter?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Interesting piece Chuck, do you happen to know if it's basically just a mini-AR or do they use a different type of recoil spring system to allow the stock to be folded without a LAW-type adapter?

I'm pretty sure it's a direct blowback...the tech specs go a little deeper under the ASR tab. I've not looked at it's innards, so I couldn't say. I don't see any pics on the website without some type of receiver extension. But they advertise caliber conversions that are supposed to be fairly simple and the barrels take down, IIRC.

[Default.mp3]

Isn't Tommy Built the guy who builds like the best HK-clones on the planet? I thought I read that somewhere.I dunno about the best, but he's definitely one of them. He does a lot of custom stuff in general even outside of guns, his website is worth checking out just to see the cool shit he's made. I believe most of the XM8 clones in the USA were built by him using SL8 donor guns, along with a lot of the top shelf G36 clones.

The Omegas have a more checkered history; they have ties to the old SWS outfit that was so hated upon (I believe the owner of Omega is the brother of Todd Bailey?), but AFAIK, their quality half as bad as SWS.

[RevolverRob]

I dunno about the best, but he's definitely one of them. He does a lot of custom stuff in general even outside of guns, his website is worth checking out just to see the cool shit he's made. I believe most of the XM8 clones in the USA were built by him using SL8 donor guns, along with a lot of the top shelf G36 clones.

The Omegas have a more checkered history; they have ties to the old SWS outfit that was so hated upon (I believe the owner of Omega is the brother of Todd Bailey?), but AFAIK, their quality half as bad as SWS.

Yea that’s the guy! He’s a total nerd and I kind of dig it.

For some reason, probably reading a thread here, he popped up on my radar months ago. I did some digging at HK Forum and could not really find any complaints in quality or CS. I think that says something, since I’ve always felt HK fanbois look for an excuse to hate on anything HK “clone” when possible.

Thanks for the heads up on this one. My buddy had an early USC -> UMP conversion that I got some trigger time behind. It worked well, shot soft, and was stupid reliable with both German or US mags. I didn’t realize anyone was doing a quality clone for the UMP.

[Grey]

So what are you buying?

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[El Cid]

The B&Ts are interesting, but I'm reticent. For starters, the APC45 is ~2300 before you add a brace (which is running another 4 bills) and the GHM45 is cheaper (1600), but the brace is 600 bucks. The mags are also expensive at ~80-100 bucks a piece.


Are you looking at the collapsing braces? They are stupid expensive. The SB side folders run from 108 to 75.
https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-sbt-sbti-01-sb

https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-sbt-sbt-02-sb

I am very impressed with the APC9 PRO and would expect the same level of craftsmanship with their other calibers. I hope the LWRCi SMG45 works well but am not willing to be an early adopter after it took them 5 or 6 years to get it to market.

No experience with the Kriss. Sorry.

[StraitR]

It does look pretty awesome. But is it really distinct from a UMP, besides using AR bits and pieces?

No idea. There isn't a much of a market for them in LE sales, so I've not taken the time to read about them. Just wanted to throw out another option. :)

[RevolverRob]

So what are you buying?

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I’m still debating. Trouble is the GHM45 and the Kriss are kind of the sweet spot budget wise. But neither seems to be 100%. The APC45 and Tommy Built UMPs appear to be more better, but also more money.

Then I was laying in bed last night thinking about how the AR resting next to me right then was my favorite little 9mm gun. And I have a stack of Colt-pattern SMG mags and belt pouches set up for those mags (sometimes I run this gun in PCC). And a .45 gun would reinvent the entire wheel to match up with a 1911. I could...instead...build a colt pattern AR9 and put a SB Tac PDW brace on it. I should be able to get it right down around 20” with the brace collapsed. Right in line with what I want length wise. And I’d save what 1500 bucks?

That’s most of the way to getting another STI to have a pair of them...

If someone had said, “Yes the Vector is the hotness you’ll love it.” I might well have just ordered one. But all the hesitation killed it for me.

[El Cid]

I’m still debating. Trouble is the GHM45 and the Kriss are kind of the sweet spot budget wise. But neither seems to be 100%. The APC45 and Tommy Built UMPs appear to be more better, but also more money.

Then I was laying in bed last night thinking about how the AR resting next to me right then was my favorite little 9mm gun. And I have a stack of Colt-pattern SMG mags and belt pouches set up for those mags (sometimes I run this gun in PCC). And a .45 gun would reinvent the entire wheel to match up with a 1911. I could...instead...build a colt pattern AR9 and put a SB Tac PDW brace on it. I should be able to get it right down around 20” with the brace collapsed. Right in line with what I want length wise. And I’d save what 1500 bucks?

That’s most of the way to getting another STI to have a pair of them...

If someone had said, “Yes the Vector is the hotness you’ll love it.” I might well have just ordered one. But all the hesitation killed it for me.

Lol! I was gonna suggest switching the carry pistol to 9mm to match one of the reliable 9mm PCC options but I was trying to just answer your question. To me having a PCC that takes Glock mags is a winning combo because I carry a 9mm Glock pistol. If you’re a die hard 1911 guy then the STI is a great choice to go the 9mm route.

Now if you want to split the difference... B&T is releasing an APC in 10mm that takes Glock mags. ;)

[Grey]

I’m still debating. Trouble is the GHM45 and the Kriss are kind of the sweet spot budget wise. But neither seems to be 100%. The APC45 and Tommy Built UMPs appear to be more better, but also more money.

Then I was laying in bed last night thinking about how the AR resting next to me right then was my favorite little 9mm gun. And I have a stack of Colt-pattern SMG mags and belt pouches set up for those mags (sometimes I run this gun in PCC). And a .45 gun would reinvent the entire wheel to match up with a 1911. I could...instead...build a colt pattern AR9 and put a SB Tac PDW brace on it. I should be able to get it right down around 20” with the brace collapsed. Right in line with what I want length wise. And I’d save what 1500 bucks?

That’s most of the way to getting another STI to have a pair of them...

If someone had said, “Yes the Vector is the hotness you’ll love it.” I might well have just ordered one. But all the hesitation killed it for me.Dude Id go GHM between that and the Kriss. Trying to spend your money here... Id still go APC if you wantes this for "serious " use beyond a range toy.

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[StraitR]

I totally get the draw of ammo commonality, but have you considered a 300blk pistol or PDW? Budget wise, they're right in your wheelhouse, and they do have commonality of parts with your AR's, so there's that.

.300blk subsonic will penetrate considerably more than standard 45acp ball, not to mention the selection of outstanding supersonic loads which would make your travel "long gun" more potent.

I could just be geeking out on them though, as I may or may not have spontaneously purchased a DD PDW yesterday for some of the same reasons you've listed (due to the current climate).

[RevolverRob]

I totally get the draw of ammo commonality, but have you considered a 300blk pistol or PDW? Budget wise, they're right in your wheelhouse, and they do have commonality of parts with your AR's, so there's that.

.300blk subsonic will penetrate considerably more than standard 45acp ball, not to mention the selection of outstanding supersonic loads which would make your travel "long gun" more potent.

I could just be geeking out on them though, as I may or may not have spontaneously purchased a DD PDW yesterday for some of the same reasons you've listed (due to the current climate).

I have and that's also a tempting option.

Okay...okay, I think I know what to do and I might need a new thread....

[Grey]

Dammit Bob... Just buy the LWRCI and then sell it to me for a massive loss when you decide you should of went 300 BO later...

[RevolverRob]

Dammit Bob... Just buy the LWRCI and then sell it to me for a massive loss when you decide you should of went 300 BO later...

Rob man, it's Rob, Bob is your Uncle.

And you dream, only Alchemy owners will be able to buy anything from me. :p

[Grey]

Rob man, it's Rob, Bob is your Uncle.

And you dream, only Alchemy owners will be able to buy anything from me. :p

Mea culpa... running on limited sleep, baby girl did not want to go to bed last night.

If you buy the LWRCI I'll buy an Alchemy :P

[RevolverRob]

Mea culpa... running on limited sleep, baby girl did not want to go to bed last night.

If you buy the LWRCI I'll buy an Alchemy :P

No worries.

And I'm gonna pass on the LWRCI - I got as far as, "Moving barrel" as a portion of their short recoil-delayed blowback system and went, "Nope." - Because when in the history of rifles/carbines and guns that do not need moving barrels due to size constraints has it been a good idea? Never.

"But less felt recoil than a pure blowback gun" - Sure and that's really that big a deal when firing pistol cartridges from a 4-6 pound weapon? :rolleyes:

Currently basically between the B&T options right now, if I don't go 9mm.

[Grey]

RevolverRob https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/BandT-GHM45-GHM9-in-45-1300-OBO/88-1975042/

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[Joe in PNG]

CDNN (https://www.cdnnsports.com/usc45-45acp-16-5-black.html?___SID=U#.XnqXdCMRVPY)has USC .45 carbines for $1,700

[Xrslug]

Here we go — let’s you stay all 1911 all the time:
https://mechtechsys.com/CCUModels/1911/tabid/6682/Default.aspx

[awp_101]

Here we go — let’s you stay all 1911 all the time:
https://mechtechsys.com/CCUModels/1911/tabid/6682/Default.aspx
I’ve always been drawn to those but I’ve never talked to anyone that owned one and I’ve never seen one around here to handle...

[awp_101]

Is the Kriss still something of a sketchy choice? I’m sort of making a “Stupid Purchases: Buy it before they ban it range toy edition” list.

They’re at the top end of what I am willing to pay, but I can accomplish just about the same thing cheaper with a Ruger Charger 9mm or a Colt-mag/DOE inspired AR pistol. Those just won’t be as Fortnite cool to my grandson.

[JRB]

I have a Gen II Kriss in .45 ACP, with a folding brace on it and a red dot.

Honestly I bought it because I'm a mouth-breathing retard for space guns. A 10.5-11.5in 5.56 or 6-8in .300BO AR pistol is vastly better for anything 'serious'.

But I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to shoot quickly and with Decent-to-Okayish accuracy. Running G21 mags makes it all the sweeter.

When it came out of the box, the action was very stiff. It took some careful lubrication and hand-cycling to get it to loosen up. Takedown is fascinating and if SMG's were still a big deal the overall concept of operation would probably be much more refined. As it is, it's a 8-9lb SMG with strange ergos, but the safety location is one of the best and easiest to manipulate that I've ever experienced. It takes some conscious effort to stay off the magazine release when firing in a two-handed stance.

It's really tempting to SBR it just to ditch the goofy brace and actually put a vertical grip on it. Overall I think the Gen II's use of an AR tube instead of the integrated hinge was a step backward. If I were really interested in making it more useful, a SIG M1913 brace with an AR tube to vertical 1913 rail adapter would get bought.

No reliability problems with 230gr brass FMJ's from PMP (old Sarf Effrican imported ammo) or PPU. Magazines used were Glock 13 round mags, Glock mags w/Kriss extensions, or the SGM 26 round mags. Haven't tried the clear ETS magazines yet.

Interestingly, with 230gr Gold Dots the accuracy was way better than expected (~2in groups at 50 yards) but I didn't want to burn up a bunch of Gold Dots pushing it to longer ranges. The 230grn FMJ blasting ammo was closer to ~3in at that distance.

My Dad just got his Bowers 45ACP suppressor rebuilt to modern specs, and I'm hoping to try that out on the Kriss soon. I suspect that'll be really fun :)

[JCN]

The recoil mitigation system on the 10mm version works great. It's pretty neat.

[randyho]

The recoil mitigation system on the 10mm version works great. It's pretty neat.
And would require a 10mm 1911. All win!

[JCN]

And would require a 10mm 1911. All win!

I was talking about the Vector.

[randyho]

I was talking about the Vector.
Gotta have a matching caliber 1911, right?

[Joe in PNG]

The proper matching 10mm to the 10mm Vector would be a Glock 20.

[awp_101]

As it is, it's a 8-9lb SMG with strange ergos
I think that’s the deal breaking shot of realism I needed, thanks! I wasn’t super hot to trot for one because it just makes more sense for me to SBR an AR lower or two but I figured it was worth asking about since my local pusher can apparently get a 9 or .45 from his distributor in a few days.

[randyho]

The proper matching 10mm to the 10mm Vector would be a Glock 20.
I stand corrected. A 1911 would be cooler.

[JRB]

I think that’s the deal breaking shot of realism I needed, thanks! I wasn’t super hot to trot for one because it just makes more sense for me to SBR an AR lower or two but I figured it was worth asking about since my local pusher can apparently get a 9 or .45 from his distributor in a few days.

It's definitely a fun range toy *if* you want one for its own sake. While the ergos are weird they're surprisingly comfortable. Being virtually recoilless and very exotic-looking and still cheap/easy to feed, it's an excellent gun for an 'icebreaker' sort of range trip with a new shooter to help them catch the bug we all have.
When a 14 year old girl can ring plates like a champ with a half hour of instruction, the that grin is worth every penny spent.

But yes, for a 'serious' gun it's simply not a contender, and an SBR'd or braced AR is immensely better.