The IWB Draw Stroke in 2020

[Gun Mutt]

I've carried a concealed pistol for the last 30 years, the first 18yrs, mostly IWB, the last 12yrs, AIWB. A recent medical issue/injury/mystery has taken appendix carry completely off the table, so I've been to revisiting IWB with a vengeance. I've learned that my hand and body now reject all of my old, 3:30-4:00, heavily canted G19 & 1911 holsters and have settled on a G26 just shy of 3:00 with the slightest hint of cant, finding the combo fairly comfortable and concealable.

When I went to Thunder Ranch and YFA in the late 90's and early 2000's, Clint and Louie both taught the classic 4 count drawstroke, their version moving the support hand to the belt buckle or stomach on the first count; both were fine with the high pectoral hand placement I'd learned and practiced from Kelly McCann (aka "Jim Grover" if you're old enough to remember) articles prior to attending formal training.

Then came the internet, AIWB, FOF and dynamic movement for everyone. With so much access to top instructors, classes, training groups, forums and videos, I can truthfully say I've trained both smarter and harder in the last 15yrs than I did in the preceding 15yrs of carry.

However, almost all of that training was done AIWB and now I'm looking for the same depth of knowledge and detailed instruction/demonstration with IWB, mostly as it relates to the role of the support hand. I want to continue to train my drawstroke intelligently and with purpose, but it seems everything I find on the subject these days is either seriously dated or poorly executed by obvious amateurs.

About the only modern clip I've been able to find is of Dom Rosso talking about Dynamis Alliance classes. It's hardly an instructional video and I had to watch it a few times to get anything more from it than Dom has an abundance of abs and I currently have none.

So, anyone have any insight, articles or videos to share on the subject?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tiKsbNUSWQ

[UNM1136]

If AIWB is off the table, remembering that AIWB can be up to 12 o'clock, what about cross draw?

IWB at the traditional 3:00 would be my follow up choice.

pat

[Redhat]

Oooh is he doing the "turtle" we discussed recently?

But seriously, have any of the mechanics really changed since you learned it previously?

I would bet Mas Ayoob could fill the bill since it's apparently becoming an archaic technique. Heck Dagga Boy and Wayne Dobbs could probably help you out...

[Gun Mutt]

Oooh is he doing the "turtle" we discussed recently?
But seriously, have any of the mechanics really changed since you learned it previously?
I would bet Mas Ayoob could fill the bill since it's apparently becoming an archaic technique. Heck Dagga Boy and Wayne Dobbs could probably help you out...

Here's what made me to post the question: two nights ago I was doing dry work in the garage with ol' Beat 'em up Bob and once I'd moved the full length of the floor, I drew in the classic 4 count, but with my apishly long arms, my left/support hand inadvertently met my drawing hand damn near under my right armpit and my left index and middle fingers hit the trigger guard, the index finger almost making contact with the trigger.

I obviously need to do something more consistent with my support hand, seemed prudent to see what the current understanding of best practices are these days.

Love to hear anything Mas, Dagga Boy or Wayne Dobbs have to say on the subject.

[Mas]

Here's what made me to post the question: two nights ago I was doing dry work in the garage with ol' Beat 'em up Bob and once I'd moved the full length of the floor, I drew in the classic 4 count, but with my apishly long arms, my left/support hand inadvertently met my drawing hand damn near under my right armpit and my left index and middle fingers hit the trigger guard, the index finger almost making contact with the trigger.

I obviously need to do something more consistent with my support hand, seemed prudent to see what the current understanding of best practices are these days.

Love to hear anything Mas, Dagga Boy or Wayne Dobbs have to say on the subject.

The first thing that leaps out at me here is that if one of your support hand fingers entered the trigger guard, they might have been a bit apart. You want them together, like a spear hand, as soon as they're done clearing the cover garment.

I assume you're working from under a closed-front garment, and using the support hand in a Hackathorn Rip to get the garment up enough to clear a draw path for dominant hand and gun. That should put the support hand at the pectoral level, and it should be positioned where you can see it in lower peripheral vision as the drawing hand takes the pistol into a press-out. The visual input should keep the support hand from premature contact with the firing hand or the trigger area of the pistol.

If you're working from under an open front concealment garment, I'd suggest the support hand being no lower than the diaphragm, and up in field of vision, ready to block physical attack. You don't need it to clear open front concealment. As the firing hand presses the gun out, the support hand comes in from the side and behind the muzzle.

I hope I'm understanding your question and that the above proves helpful.

[Cory]

When I think of the draw stroke, I think of Paul Gomez. I never had the pleasure of meeting or training with Paul. In fact he had passed away before I stumbled onto his videos. They were among some of my first exposures to thought out training - and I think he presents a really aolid foundation that can be adapted from. However, without knowing the baseline and understanding it it makes furthering your draw hard.


https://youtu.be/4NKngkVXMGg


https://youtu.be/7OZfgutNufU

-Cory

[Redhat]

Here's what made me to post the question: two nights ago I was doing dry work in the garage with ol' Beat 'em up Bob and once I'd moved the full length of the floor, I drew in the classic 4 count, but with my apishly long arms, my left/support hand inadvertently met my drawing hand damn near under my right armpit and my left index and middle fingers hit the trigger guard, the index finger almost making contact with the trigger.

I obviously need to do something more consistent with my support hand, seemed prudent to see what the current understanding of best practices are these days.

Love to hear anything Mas, Dagga Boy or Wayne Dobbs have to say on the subject.



We can call that a training issue but might it also be another good reason to consider a TDA handgun?

[Cory]

Some more from Paul Gomez on garment clear. Because I carry AIWB, this video doesn't apply much for me. These techniques seem like they've mostly been traded for support hand garment clear - but it's important to understand the disadvantages of that.


https://youtu.be/FoLz-NIWbOg

Mike Seeklander's draw may be better for you. This works for strong carry or AIWB single hand. I find a garment grip and circle motion is a great technique to clear and establish grip. However, if I'm trying to do a one handed garment sweep I don't go for the hemline with 4 fingers. I wear different cuts and types of shirts and the hemline isn't consistent for me. I grab a handful of material over the actual firearm and then proceed to make my big C.


https://youtu.be/4idEuv4A5n4

-Cory

[Clusterfrack]

Not much to add here. I like Gomez and Seeklanders approaches also.

One thing to consider is what happens when your draw isn't perfect. Dryfiring will help you practice both perfect and imperfect draws. Don't flog yourself when your shirt gets fouled. It helps you be comfortable with recovering from problems. And, of course learning out how to prevent them. I've found that in most cases, a less-than-perfect draw will add maybe 0.2-0.4s.

The issue you described with your support hand will get fixed by practice. Sounds like you may need to slow down a bit until your support hand grip becomes consistent.

[runcible]

In specific reply to the content linked video:

I have some concerns about training events wherein you spar\clinch\defend against another human being and then transition to engaging targets with the live weapon that you've had on your person the whole time. There's ways to mitigate concerns when shifting modalities, and I don't see them depicted here brief as the video is. I've participated in such events in the past, and from this derive my opinion. The safety concerns put aside, not being able to work it with sims\in-FOF loses potential training-value\learning-experiences, in that the person providing the active resistance ceases all such pressure the moment the transition to live fire begins and there is no penalty for inappropriate extension of the weapon given the proximity of the threat. (Gosh, and you can see the hips bowing forward and the back leaning backwards beginning at 2:04.)

I have really embraced collecting off of the hand flattened upon the high\center-chest, as per SouthNarc 's curriculum. You can observe in real time error-margins shrinking at 1:17.

I strongly prefer the back of the hand indexing to the buttock or near-hip as per RWS , and we can see a potential muzzle\foot conflict at 1:10.

It's a well done promotional video that I don't mean to take out of context, but yeesh.

[runcible]

Some gathered thoughts on teaching the drawstrokes:

For those with strength, economy of motion, or other mechanical deficiencies; I prefer to teach the elements of 2/3/4 with a 5lb weightplate. The student receives more feedback if they are driving the weapon so quickly as to be unable to bring it to a controlled stop at any point in the overall movement (to whit: overdriving).

E.g. Starting position: the student casually indexes the plate over their carry position and approximate carry height, in a fascimile of a firing grip with the hand of choice; with the non-carrying hand hanging loosely at their side. Most thread the social and ring fingers through the hole in the plate, have the index finger in high register up near to the plate's rim, and the pinky flares out flat against the side of the plate itself. (Optional focal element: student visually indexes onto something at the far end of the room and will remain so focused until dictated later.)

...they then INHALE and ROW the plate up to full-compression or an appropriate tactile reference point, whichever arrives first given their physical capabilities. The non-carrying hand moves to press flat against high\center-of-chest, as this happens.
- AIWB users rowing up until the length of their flagged thumb, base of their thumb and the edge of their wrist indexing below the pectoral muscle and with their shooting-side elbow flared outwards and to the side.
- HIWB users rowing up until the flagged thumb indexes against the outboard edge of their pectoral muscle, elbow flared backwards and upwards.

...they then lock their wrist at its present and neutral angle, maintain the present acute angle of the elbow, and fold the carrying-side elbow down to touch their floating-ribs\flanks while keeping the plate oriented directly forwards.
- AIWB: the shooting-side elbow folds down to touch the ribs, and the weapon reorients from horizontal to vertical incidental to this.
- HIWB: the shooting-side elbow advances forward to touch the ribs, and the weapon reorients from the downward angle of the TPI to vertical\facing-downrange.

...(if working a two-handed press-out, the non-carrying hand collects onto the weight-plate at this time) they then EXHALE and PRESS the plate outwards and upwards, until the plate rises into and intrudes upon their visual plane.
(Optional focal element: student shifts focus from the distant point to the top edge of the plate, building a pseudo sight-picture.)
((Students pressing out a plate with the hand opposite of their dominant eye will turn their chin as they begin the exhale, sufficient and in order to position their dominant eye behind the plate without deviating their shoulders or unevenly bending their elbows.))
(((If working one-hand only press-outs, then the non-carrying hand remains flat to the chest and the presently shooting-side shoulder drives more aggressively behind the plate during the press-out itself.)))

...they should arrive at an end-state of having empty lungs, full extension, and optionally a pseudo sight-picture with appropriate turning of the head.

...Inhale and retract back, reorient the elbow, and exhale while returning the plate downwards back to the starting position.
- AIWB: reorient the elbow upwards and outboard, with a locked and neutral wrist, maintained acute elbow angle
- HIWB: draw the elbow further rearwards and then upwards, with a locked and neutral wrist, maintained acute elbow angle

...repeat to prescription.

As relates to garment clearance, I teach two methods: a two-handed and a single-handed method.

With two hands:
...both hands sweep upwards from below the belt-line, with all fingers clawing\brushing at the garment's hemline upwards before the thumbs join to pinch at the fabric gathering within each grasp: this so as not to over-emphasize the claw\sweep that may have fingertips snagging upon the gunbelt, and to capture bunched fabric if the hemline is not captured at the beginning of the movement.

...both clasping hands attempt to rise until the bases of each thumb reach and stop beneath each pectoral muscle or the elasticity\give of the fabric arrests movement whichever arrives first so long as the weapon's grip is wholly exposed; this so as to function with fully-zipped up inelastic hardshell jackets, fully buttoned-up shirts, t-shirts\polos, and hoodies.

...the support hand maintains wrist-pressure against the collected garment as it extends flat to the high\center-chest, while the shooting-side maintains active wrist-pressure as the wrist tracks over the gathered garment until the shooting-hand arrives upon the holstered weapon's tang - flagged thumb (so as to avoid pinching an undergarment and to allow the hand to fully descend onto the weapon), hand rolled sufficiently far forward\downwards onto the weapon as to appropriately index for a firing grip when the weapon is drawn from the holster, and trigger finger straight and oriented such as to arrive at a positive register upon-the-slide\into-the-ejection-port when the weapon is drawn from the holster (count 1).

With one hand:
...the shooting hand sweeps upward from below the belt-line, with the four fingers clawing\brushing at the garment's center-hemline upwards before the thumb pinches towards the fingertips; this so that the garment's hemline or fabric is clasped between the length of the thumb and the fingertips.

...the clasping hand and captive fabric then rising upwards and moving to the outboard-side such that the base of the thumb presses against the outboard edge of the pectoral muscle; this such that the fabric has maximum tension and a minimum of hanging or slack fabric remaining. Enabling this, the shooting-side elbow should track rearwards and upwards.

...the shooting-side wrist presses against the fabric immediately behind the clasp, pinning the fabric against the ribs adjacent to the pectoral muscle; until the forearm then advancing forward assumes and maintains the capturing pressure against the ribs to hold that fabric, as the hand then descends to arrive upon the holstered weapon's tag with a flagged thumb, hand rolled sufficiently far forward\downwards onto the weapon weapon as to appropriately index for a firing grip when the weapon is drawn from the holster, and trigger finger straight and oriented such as to arrive at a positive register upon-the-slide\into-the-ejection-port when the weapon is drawn from the holster (count 1).

[backtrail540]

Green Ops seems to have it figured out. Though i'm not sure how much free ice cream they'd be willing to give away. Playing with the videos might give you some idea though vs what you're currently doing.


https://youtu.be/SFY9823rcj8


https://youtu.be/W6nEGFUu1Oc

[thward89]

Bill Rapier has a good take on some of this.


https://youtu.be/LlyIgpMfpUw


https://youtu.be/603kfkCUig0

[Gun Mutt]

You guys are the best!! This is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for but didn't find with my weak ass search-fu.

Only had time to watch one at lunch, chose the Bill Rapier and that looks just like what I do when I'm working draws up close with Bob.

Can't wait to view the other vids repeatedly over the weekend...especially Paul Gomez (RIP). I used to pm with him a bunch back in the early days of WT and we were supposed to meet up when I was in N'Awlins back in '03 or '04...can't remember what got in the way of our dinner, but I've always regretted the missed opportunity to break bread with him.

[0ddl0t]

Are there any good videos on obtaining a good firing grip with a well-concealed/tucked strongside IWB pistol? Blazing fast draws make for nice videos, but I can't exactly walk around and reach top shelves with my bottom button undone or the butt of my pistol printing because it's floating 2" from my body...

[JAD]

I’m no instructor or YouTuber but this works for me.


https://youtu.be/vu9lKKFp6PI

Keys are:
- hard rip on concealment should throw it clear of the pistol. This does not work as well when seated, practice in your car with a blue gun; leaning away helps.
- slide your thumb along your torso to both hold concealment back and find the inside of the gun. As the thumb enters behind the gun it will lever it away from the body.
- slam the hand down on the gun. In the video my belt dips down a little even though it’s pretty tight.
- Finger to forward pull the dot is an index for me. That puts the finger on the slide or high on the frame depending on the gun.
- pull straight up.

[Gun Mutt]

Just a follow up and say thanks again for all the advice and especially the Gomez videos.

I'm definitely in the camp of my default being a one handed draw and as I said before, much of Bill Rapier's close in stuff is right in line with what I was already practicing. My problem was getting my left hand waaay to far across my body when drawing to a two handed stance and putting myself at risk for getting it tangled in the trigger guard.

With the addition of PG's technique of drawing to SouthNarc's #2, then sliding the pistol across the chest to come up under the dominant eye, I've been able to work the two pieces of the draw in conjunction and it's working quite nicely. Even when I'm not shielding my head as the draw starts, my left elbow stays to the left and if/when I do index my chest with my left hand, it's on my left pec waiting for my right hand to bring the pistol across my chest to meet it.

Having a specific method to work with is giving me the results I was looking for. Combined with GAP's wonderful G26.5 thread and a nugget of Jeff Gonzales wisdom about grip (https://www.tridentconcepts.com/2015/02/18/firing-up-your-firing-grip/) gleaned there, I'm as happy as I'm gonna get with IWB and a G26...at least until I pick up my own gen 5.