Ben Stoeger - 3.24 FAST

[DonovanM]

The bar is now higher!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTkjlKyPKqs

[spanky]

Not bad for a gamer...

[JHC]

Not bad for a gamer...

LOL! Holy cow that is fun. I get a kick out of his whistle after the first one on the vid.

First shot is double action? If yes what happened to that DA to SA transition problem? ;)

[DonovanM]

If yes what happened to that DA to SA transition problem? ;)

Yes, and, it does not mingle long in presence of dedicated practice.

[JHC]

And note that his ejection patterns are not identical from that Beretta either. ;)

[DocGKR]

Quite impressive!

[joshs]

That's smokin fast, but it looks like a 4x6 for the head instead of the required 3x5.

[DonovanM]

Huh, you're right. I have a hard time believing those still wouldn't be in though.

[spanky]

That's smokin fast, but it looks like a 4x6 for the head instead of the required 3x5.

That took longer than I anticipated.

[CCT125US]

That's smokin fast, but it looks like a 4x6 for the head instead of the required 3x5.

I agree... not that it would really matter. I am so sure that I could shoot <3sec FAST on a 4x6 that I am not even going to try ;-)

[Ben Stoeger]

That's smokin fast, but it looks like a 4x6 for the head instead of the required 3x5.

I can't hit a 3x5 card

[ToddG]

That's smokin fast, but it looks like a 4x6 for the head instead of the required 3x5.

Another good example of why YouTube vids aren't eligible for coins, official records, etc. I don't believe anyone would set it up wrong purposely, but there are so many little things that need to be right to be official.

Or perhaps a 4x6 is what makes it the IDPA FAST Drill. :cool:

edited to add: Before anyone flips out, I know Stoeger didn't intend the video to be "official" either.

[Savage Hands]

I can't hit a 3x5 card


LOL :D

[Ben Stoeger]

Another good example of why YouTube vids aren't eligible for coins, official records, etc. I don't believe anyone would set it up wrong purposely, but there are so many little things that need to be right to be official.

Or perhaps a 4x6 is what makes it the IDPA FAST Drill. :cool:

I am just getting trained up so I can score a coin in a class.

[ToddG]

I am just getting trained up so I can score a coin in a class.

We posted simultaneously ... or rather, I was editing my previous post simultaneously. I know you weren't "trying out" for a coin or anything. But the question has been raised so much lately that I felt it was worth explaining.

[Ben Stoeger]

Ok it turns out all I have are 4 by 6 index cards laying around my house.

Solution: Fold the card in half and re run this drill next week.

I am a FAST noob so cut me a break.

[DonovanM]

Fold it in half so it's 2x6, not 4x3.

[Ben Stoeger]

Fold it in half so it's 2x6, not 4x3.

Can't I do the 4x3 at like 15 yards or something?

[jmjames]

Could just cut an inch off each side. :D

J.Ja

[markp]

Can't I do the 4x3 at like 15 yards or something?

sounds like a new drill in the making for P-T.com

:cool:

[DocGKR]

Mr. Stoeger,

You could also just print out the standard FAST drill target on some legal size paper: http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/fast-target.pdf

[beltjones]

With a smaller card my money says Ben can't do this in under 3 seconds.

PROVE ME WRONG, BEN!

[jslaker]

Honestly, I find the noticeable stutter between rounds 2 and 3 on the 8" interesting. Makes me curious about the impact of training for two shots on a target from competitive shooting. It's not present on the second two strings.

[beltjones]

Honestly, I find the noticeable stutter between rounds 2 and 3 on the 8" interesting. Makes me curious about the impact of training for two shots on a target from competitive shooting. It's not present on the second two strings.

Meh. Trigger freeze happens to the best of us.

[Ben Stoeger]

Honestly, I find the noticeable stutter between rounds 2 and 3 on the 8" interesting. Makes me curious about the impact of training for two shots on a target from competitive shooting. It's not present on the second two strings.

I commonly shoot 6 rounds on a single target as part of training for competitive shooting.

[GOP]

I commonly shoot 6 rounds on a single target as part of training for competitive shooting.

Hahaha, I love how a little trigger freeze on an amazing run is equated to shooting 2 on targets during competitions.

Ben, if you would share, what is your time on 10 and 15 yard Bill Drills? I know it is a little off topic from the OP. I shot my first major match yesterday and everything 10 and in and 18-25 I did very well, I really need to improve my mid range shooting/splits and changing gears.

[JHC]

When I first started shooting FASTs I often did shoot the 4 in two pairs out of years of habituation.

[EmanP]

Damn that's FAST!

[Ben Stoeger]

Ben, if you would share, what is your time on 10 and 15 yard Bill Drills? I know it is a little off topic from the OP. I shot my first major match yesterday and everything 10 and in and 18-25 I did very well, I really need to improve my mid range shooting/splits and changing gears.


I can give you the times I can run at various distances.

At the longer ranges if anything goes wrong I tend to drop a lot of points in a hurry.


7 yards 1.7 (Repeatable) 1.6 (pushing) 1.5 (best)

10 yards 1.9 (Repeatable) 1.8 (pushing) 1.7 (best)

15 yards 2.1 (Repeatable) 1.9 (pushing) 1.8 (best)

25 yards 2.8 (Repeatable) 2.4 (pushing) 2.2 (best)

[theblacknight]

Dam. dudes head shots would have fit anyway.



Ben, I dont know much about raced out 92's, but I know the one Uncle Sam gives me sucks. What are your triggers at? Blazing shooting man.

[Ben Stoeger]

Dam. dudes head shots would have fit anyway.



Ben, I dont know much about raced out 92's, but I know the one Uncle Sam gives me sucks. What are your triggers at? Blazing shooting man.

I think you would not find my gun to be all that raced out.

The trigger on that particular gun is about 4.5lbs single action and 7lbs double action. The gun has not had any trigger work done except a lighter hammer spring and some polishing.

The gun has a fiber front sight and a lighter recoil spring... other than that it is off the shelf.

[LHS]

I think you would not find my gun to be all that raced out.

The trigger on that particular gun is about 4.5lbs single action and 7lbs double action. The gun has not had any trigger work done except a lighter hammer spring and some polishing.

The gun has a fiber front sight and a lighter recoil spring... other than that it is off the shelf.

It's amazing what a difference a D spring and a little polishing can make with a factory 92 trigger.

[Ben Stoeger]

It's amazing what a difference a D spring and a little polishing can make with a factory 92 trigger.

92 triggers are pretty good... they are just plain too heavy. A 10-12lbs double action trigger just isn't necessary. I don't get why Beretta doesn't just put a D spring into all their 92s from the get go.

[Suvorov]

92 triggers are pretty good... they are just plain too heavy. A 10-12lbs double action trigger just isn't necessary. I don't get why Beretta doesn't just put a D spring into all their 92s from the get go.

My understanding is that the firing pin force was a requirement in the original M9 competition and that is why the 92FS/M9 has such a stout main spring. As I recall it was the Smith and Wesson that was disqualified for not having sufficient firing pin force. I would assume it simply convenience for them to give the civilian 92FSs the same mainspring as the M9.

Regardless, as a Beretta shooter myself, all I can do is tip my hat to you for your inspirational shooting skills!

[LHS]

92 triggers are pretty good... they are just plain too heavy. A 10-12lbs double action trigger just isn't necessary. I don't get why Beretta doesn't just put a D spring into all their 92s from the get go.

Honestly, the baseline 92 series should be a 92G with a D spring and a Vertec slide. In a perfect world, they'd still be selling the 92G-SD and make a compact version of it. Oh well.

[VolGrad]

So has anyone figured out yet why folks are calling this the IDPA Fast? I mean where did the IDPA part come from?

Just curious.

[TheRoland]

So has anyone figured out yet why folks are calling this the IDPA Fast? I mean where did the IDPA part come from?

Just curious.

He's shooting it with IDPA-legal holster/pouches, and with a vest.

[shootist26]

Dam. dudes head shots would have fit anyway.



Ben, I dont know much about raced out 92's, but I know the one Uncle Sam gives me sucks. What are your triggers at? Blazing shooting man.

that is a 92 Elite II, one of the best 92 versions ever made. Very similar to a standard 92FS except is has a 'G' decocker only, a Brigadier slide and removable front sights, plus some other minor improvements.

It just kills me that Beretta doesn't make 'G' versions anymore. I would like an M9A1-G as the baseline. I'd love to get the 92G-SD and 92G Compact back again as well.

[jthhapkido]

So has anyone figured out yet why folks are calling this the IDPA Fast? I mean where did the IDPA part come from?

Just curious.

I think Vogel just assumed it was an IDPA thing (or just misspoke when he filmed his video) since everything was from concealment and Sevigny was wearing his IDPA rig when he shot it.

Ben, on the other hand, just did it to be irritating, as he knows better but likes annoying people. :)

[gtmtnbiker98]

Using a 3X5 Stoeger does it in 3.11 and a 4.5 at 15-yards clean!!! He dropped a head at 25 but how many dare to critique a 25-yard attempt?

[DonovanM]

Using a 3X5 Stoeger does it in 3.11 and a 4.5 at 15-yards clean!!! He dropped a head at 25 but how many dare to critique a 25-yard attempt?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f73jEe7Mzjw

[beltjones]

Using a 3X5 Stoeger does it in 3.11 and a 4.5 at 15-yards clean!!! He dropped a head at 25 but how many dare to critique a 25-yard attempt?

It was a 3x4 card.

I think some changes need to be made to the administration of the drill. I think using IDPA gear is too much of an advantage, as is non-readily available commercial ammo (ie, no reloads, no AAA 147 subsonic, etc), and maybe insist that the official printed target is used. I get that these runs aren't eligible for coins because they are outside of a class, but even in the class - and for purposes of setting new records - I think it's a good idea to really pull back on what is allowed in terms of gear and ammo. It might invalidate some records and coins, but so be it.

Obviously I have zero authority over this stuff, just putting forth my $0.02.

[EmanP]

I'm not sure I get it. Sevigny holds the official record at 3.56 but he did it with a video camera but now it's not allowed? I mean I know why it's not allowed with the video but then why was it ok for Dave?

Forgot to add, SOAB Ben, you're a mad man!

[JV_]

I'm not sure I get it. Sevigny holds the official record at 3.56 but he did it with a video camera but now it's not allowed? I mean I know why it's not allowed with the video but then why was it ok for Dave?

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4031-Bob-Vogel-3-34-FAST&p=69142&viewfull=1#post69142

[beltjones]

I'm not sure I get it. Sevigny holds the official record at 3.56 but he did it with a video camera but now it's not allowed? I mean I know why it's not allowed with the video but then why was it ok for Dave?

Forgot to add, SOAB Ben, you're a mad man!

Dave was grandfathered in. Also, it's Dave, so, you know.

[TGS]

It was a 3x4 card.

I think some changes need to be made to the administration of the drill. I think using IDPA gear is too much of an advantage, as is non-readily available commercial ammo (ie, no reloads, no AAA 147 subsonic, etc), and maybe insist that the official printed target is used. I get that these runs aren't eligible for coins because they are outside of a class, but even in the class - and for purposes of setting new records - I think it's a good idea to really pull back on what is allowed in terms of gear and ammo. It might invalidate some records and coins, but so be it.

Obviously I have zero authority over this stuff, just putting forth my $0.02.

I think Todd has already thought this through. Check out the conditions for the FAST as a qualifier in KSTG. For the FAST in general, if people use no concealment, open top holsters, ect, there are penalties associated that address what you're stepping in.

Not to mention, Ben is using a holster that isn't illogical for concealed carry. The vest replicates a jacket pretty well, particularly more robust suit jackets that have reinforced interior panels as worn by LEO's who work a lot of protection details. Seems fair to me.

My personal view is "who cares." The FAST should be for your betterment......if someone is gaming the FAST, then it's kinda like cheating on tests instead of learning the material........you're only cheating yourself. I could care less about someone with a weak constitution that needs to game shit in order to look better in front of his shooting buddies. Let him have his coin.....he will feel better for the time being, and in 5 minutes realize he's a loser because no one respects him, anyways. Hopefully, he'll become a man one day. If not, he offs himself with his customized Glock Perfection and the world is minus one NUB.

[WyoXd]

It was a 3x4 card.

I think some changes need to be made to the administration of the drill. I think using IDPA gear is too much of an advantage, as is non-readily available commercial ammo (ie, no reloads, no AAA 147 subsonic, etc), and maybe insist that the official printed target is used. I get that these runs aren't eligible for coins because they are outside of a class, but even in the class - and for purposes of setting new records - I think it's a good idea to really pull back on what is allowed in terms of gear and ammo. It might invalidate some records and coins, but so be it.

Obviously I have zero authority over this stuff, just putting forth my $0.02.

I am trying to understand the advantage of "IDPA gear", whatever that means. IDPA legal gear by the rule book is more restrictive than the F.A.S.T. Drill allows so to me "IDPA gear" would level the playing field more.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[gtmtnbiker98]

Wow, are we really nitpicking the gear used? The gun community really is carnivores, we eat our own.

[EmanP]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4031-Bob-Vogel-3-34-FAST&p=69142&viewfull=1#post69142

Thanks JV.

[JHC]

Wow, are we really nitpicking the gear used? The gun community really is carnivores, we eat our own.

Yeah that can be a problem. Valid point.

I think this is just insanely cool (EDIT: sub 5 seconds at 15 yards etc). I don't care what kind of vest he had on Wicked wicked skill level - based on the . . . oh hundred or 200 (?) FAST tests I've shot . . . this is just sick! :cool:

[EmanP]

That wasn't sub 4, the 15 yard was 4.5 seconds.

[SecretNY]

I just like the new eyepro and footware!

[JeffJ]

Wow, are we really nitpicking the gear used? The gun community really is carnivores, we eat our own.

Sure, because if he'd been wearing an untucked polo and carrying AIWB like me it would have taken 7-8 seconds with a dropped body shot - just like me.

I'm not really sure why there is so much vest hatred out there. I know a good amount of guys that carry that way - it's not for me but who gives a s**t.

Just becasue you (not you gtmtnbiker) conceal and carry a certain way doesn't mean you have to piss all over people who do things different. I don't get it.

[Savage Hands]

I just like the new eyepro and footware!



Has there been a Professional Shooter that likes to troll before? It's rather entertaining :D

[EmanP]

Does winning the National title make one a professional or does getting paid to shoot make one a professional? As far as I know he has real jobs that let him pay for his shooting hobby.

[Savage Hands]

Does winning the National title make one a professional or does getting paid to shoot make one a professional? As far as I know he has real jobs that let him pay for his shooting hobby.


I don't know enough about his background outside of the fact he's a high level shooter so excuse the term I used.

[LittleLebowski]

Get this thread back to civility. Thanks.

[EmanP]

No big deal but it brings up a good point, what does make one a 'professional'? In every other industry it's someone that does something for a living but they don't have titles and champions and all so in this case, what would it be? I guess we could look at skating and snowboarding where if they are employeed by sponsors like Burton or World Industries or even RedBull and get paid to fly all over the world doing their thing, that would make them professionals. But typically no one that didn't have sponsor support couldn't afford to get good enough to win. This is an exception.

[JHC]

That wasn't sub 4, the 15 yard was 4.5 seconds.

Oops, thanks! I edited the error. I was thinking "coin territory" and I guess Vogel and Ben have me thinking sub 4 now. ;)

[GOP]

Excellent shooting Ben! I hope to one day I can get to that level! How old are you Ben?

Edit: nevermind. Off topic.

[beltjones]

Question for Ben:

I think it's pretty obvious that equipment matters in this drill, otherwise you wouldn't be able to shoot it a full half second slower with the IDPA gear than with the USPSA gear. It's also obvious that how you manipulate the gun (speed reload vs slide lock reload) can make a big difference in your time.

So my question is, for someone at your skill level, is the challenge of this drill the shooting aspect or the gun handling aspect? Are they the same? At what level would you say the biggest time savings come from gun handling vs. shooting proficiency?

[Ben Stoeger]

Question for Ben:

I think it's pretty obvious that equipment matters in this drill, otherwise you wouldn't be able to shoot it a full half second slower with the IDPA gear than with the USPSA gear. It's also obvious that how you manipulate the gun (speed reload vs slide lock reload) can make a big difference in your time.

So my question is, for someone at your skill level, is the challenge of this drill the shooting aspect or the gun handling aspect? Are they the same? At what level would you say the biggest time savings come from gun handling vs. shooting proficiency?

At 7 yards on (a drill like this) I am concerned very little with the actual shooting part.

My IDPA gear is a handicap for me because I am so unfamiliar with it. I shot my last major IDPA event more than 5 years ago. For a more seasoned IDPA shooter I think they would see much less of a difference between a concealment rig and a USPSA rig. (maybe .2 or .3 seconds instead of the full .5)

A few years ago when I screwed around with this drill I needed to focus up to nail the shots on the index card. At the level I am at now I just shoot as soon as I see my fiber on the card and I shoot pretty much as fast as I can pull the trigger.

The short answer to your question is that this is (for me) a weapons manipulation exercise. The noisy part is not the hard part.

[DonovanM]

Does winning the National title make one a professional or does getting paid to shoot make one a professional? As far as I know he has real jobs that let him pay for his shooting hobby.

But what if part of your job description involved learning how to shoot and practicing semi-regularly, but it was tertiary to your primary responsibilities... would you still not be a "professional shooter" if you won a National championship at it? Semi-pro? Food for thought...


At the level I am at now I just shoot as soon as I see my fiber on the card and I shoot pretty much as fast as I can pull the trigger.

This is why I said the FAST isn't that big of a challenge for a real GM in Vogel's thread. When you train on 20-30yd partial targets and steel, a 3x5 card at 7yds is hell of a lot of room for error.

The FAST is a great fundamentals test for your average or advanced shooter, IMO. But it's not some Wünderdrill that strikes fear in the hearts of GMs everywhere. Maybe your average paper GM, but they don't count for anything anyway except to water down the title.


The short answer to your question is that this is (for me) a weapons manipulation exercise. The noisy part is not the hard part.

So it's not even a shooting drill then? LOL

[TGS]

The noisy part is not the hard part.


For you at speed, what is a tough target from the holster?

[Ben Stoeger]

For you at speed, what is a tough target from the holster?

In a match situation I tend to get a little bit nervous about little pieces of steel past 20 yards or head shot sized targets past 15 yards or so. Typically most mistakes occur on much easier shots when the urge to go fast induces me to make dumb mistakes.

Since winning at USPSA comes down to being the most accurate I very train by shooting at targets as difficult as I can possibly make them. I wasn't surprised that I wasn't able to hit that index card at speed at 25 yards but that wouldn't stop me from making an effort.

[Ben Stoeger]

So it's not even a shooting drill then? LOL

You have to shoot... but that isn't really the hard part. (at least not as far as I am concerned)

[theblacknight]

holy fuuuu. dude is fast

[beltjones]

In a match situation I tend to get a little bit nervous about little pieces of steel past 20 yards or head shot sized targets past 15 yards or so. Typically most mistakes occur on much easier shots when the urge to go fast induces me to make dumb mistakes.

Since winning at USPSA comes down to being the most accurate I very train by shooting at targets as difficult as I can possibly make them. I wasn't surprised that I wasn't able to hit that index card at speed at 25 yards but that wouldn't stop me from making an effort.

Can you expand on that a little bit? How do easy shots result in dumb mistakes? How fast is too fast?

You say you need to be accurate to win, but can you quantify that? What percentage of points do you try to shoot? Do you think there is such a thing as missing fast enough to win?

[Ben Stoeger]

Can you expand on that a little bit? How do easy shots result in dumb mistakes? How fast is too fast?

You say you need to be accurate to win, but can you quantify that? What percentage of points do you try to shoot? Do you think there is such a thing as missing fast enough to win?


Easy shots tempt a shooter to rush. Rushing is what tends to produce mistakes.

I personally strive to shoot as many points as I can. The goal on every stage is to shoot 100% As... with VERY few exceptions to that rule.

You CAN shoot a match and rack up a few misses and still win.. but that says more about the level of competitors shooting against you than it does about the way to score the best.

[LOKNLOD]

Damn, Ben. You've come a long way since I watched you shoot at Springbrook in Omro, WI back in '05!

[jlw]

I don't get all the fuss over the gear in Mr. Stoeger's or Mr. Vogel's videos. Are not both shooters within the published rules?

[Mr_White]

At 7 yards on (a drill like this) I am concerned very little with the actual shooting part.

.......

A few years ago when I screwed around with this drill I needed to focus up to nail the shots on the index card. At the level I am at now I just shoot as soon as I see my fiber on the card and I shoot pretty much as fast as I can pull the trigger.

The short answer to your question is that this is (for me) a weapons manipulation exercise. The noisy part is not the hard part.

I am most impressed with you being unburdened by the marksmanship aspect of the FAST, at the speed you are going. I can almost go that speed, but not with reliable hits like you seem to have. Great shooting Ben. Totally awesome!

[Mr_White]

I don't get all the fuss over the gear in Mr. Stoeger's or Mr. Vogel's videos. Are not both shooters within the published rules?

I'm not bothered by their gear. It certainly seems to be within the rules. I have to think it is just because it seems like many people on pistol-forum do not love the shoot-me-first IDPA vest and see it as a cliche of pistol shooting and concealed carry. I kind of see it that way too, but am unconcerned at it being used as the requisite concealment garment for the FAST.

The beauty of Vogel's and Stoeger's pistol shooting far outweighs the blight of the SMF vest in my eyes.

[TGS]

I don't get all the fuss over the gear in Mr. Stoeger's or Mr. Vogel's videos. Are not both shooters within the published rules?

Jealousy is alive and well in all walks of life. Simple as that.

[GOP]

Jealousy is alive and well in all walks of life. Simple as that.

+1.

Instead of being jealous about the amazing runs and complaining about gear, how about training hard until you can do it yourself?

[theblacknight]

+1.

Instead of being jealous about the amazing runs and complaining about gear, how about training hard until you can do it yourself?

You just paralelled Occupy Wallstreet. I award you 100 internets!

all this whining about gear= left handed compliments.

[VolGrad]

I have to think it is just because it seems like many people on pistol-forum do not love the shoot-me-first IDPA vest and see it as a cliche of pistol shooting and concealed carry. I kind of see it that way too, but am unconcerned at it being used as the requisite concealment garment for the FAST.
Agreed. I hate IDPA vests but I frequently wear one for IDPA matches. Why? Because mine is light weight and it's easy to take on/off when I shoot stages that require concealment. I wear a t-shirt or polo shirt underneath because it gets hot as hell here in the dirty South. No, I don't EDC with a SMF vest. I do carry underneath a unbuttoned S/S shirt though and it's pretty much the same.

IMO, the biggest advantage of using a vest for IDPA is having a place (easy to get to pockets) to stick a mag while doing tac re-loads, something I'd prob never do in real life anyway. Therefore, it's already a poor facsimile of real life situations so I might as well wear the vest, right? Besides, in the end it's just a game and that's sort of the uniform so I play along.


Instead of being jealous about the amazing runs and complaining about gear, how about training hard until you can do it yourself?
True dat. That's what I'm taking from these vids. I plan to stup up some dry fire and re-load practice after watching these lightning scores.