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Bratch
03-04-2020, 10:41 PM
At the end of nogi tonight we did take down king of the mountain. A couple of the rounds I ended up with one of our big guys, +/- 350#. We usually ended up in a FUT and then a scramble. One round I did get double unders and moved to the back but once on the back I didn’t feel comfortable with anything I know. Worked a sit out and couldn’t get good anchors on him or feel like I could move him if I did. I didn’t want to shoot or go low level because I was quite a bit taller than him and I did not want that weight on me in a sprawl.

Anybody have any go tos against the larger crowd?

JHC
03-05-2020, 06:32 AM
At the end of nogi tonight we did take down king of the mountain. A couple of the rounds I ended up with one of our big guys, +/- 350#. We usually ended up in a FUT and then a scramble. One round I did get double unders and moved to the back but once on the back I didn’t feel comfortable with anything I know. Worked a sit out and couldn’t get good anchors on him or feel like I could move him if I did. I didn’t want to shoot or go low level because I was quite a bit taller than him and I did not want that weight on me in a sprawl.

Anybody have any go tos against the larger crowd?

This is a very interesting question. I do not train BJJ. In the 90's I trained in some other ad hock defensive tactics that included many elements of Ju and striking. I will get a bit over the line of my lane and relate what worked repeatedly for me in one exhausting session.

The instructor matched a padded advanced student against me and I was unpadded. He was padded so I could go full bore with the full arsenal. The other student was taller and about 40 lbs heavier. He had a deep martial arts background and was presently at that time in a Golden Gloves boxing program. I didn't know him well, he didn't seem to speak much English or anything actually and I always sensed a bit of a mean streak.

Anyway I could not hold my ground in the stand up. His striking was so superior I was getting pummeled. But I had done a LOT of training of chokes. So I would shield my jaw/head and shoot for this neck. Real committed shoots and when I got his neck (ie head control) in whatever orientation we were in based on his reaction I would hurl my full weight whichever direction it made sense and his body followed his head and we'd be down and I'd be choking him for all I was worth.

Instructor would halt it, reset us and repeat. Over and fooking over. I was like the racoon drowning a dog story. It worked repeatedly. Sometimes driving the shoot I'd end with him on his back and me on his chest with buried head and using my forearm to choke him. Sometimes I ended up on my back having spun my weight behind him while having his neck wrapped - him facing more or less up and me behind and under choking for all I was worth.

Once I had him only on his knees and I was somewhat sprawled but had my left controlling his collar and saw the opp for strikes. It was funny because as I heard my instructor yelling at me "use your knees! use your elbows! use your combinations!" All I was doing was holding his collar with my left and jackhammering rights into the side of his padded face. LOL I was full lizard brain at that point.

Anyway when the end was mercifully called the instructor asked me what I learned. And I said I'm in deep trouble without my glasses. My chokes worked. And never ever leave my house without my pistol. He LOL'd.

Anyway, I fully realize I am not a highly trained practitioner and no one will hurt my feelings if they find any of this stupid.

HCM
03-05-2020, 10:34 AM
https://www.amazon.com/Gullivers-Travels-Dover-Thrift-Editions/dp/0486292738

49502

Clusterfrack
03-05-2020, 10:43 AM
A few things that have worked for me, none of them BJJ legal. What did the Gracies say about how much weight equals one belt? When it's someone who's double your weight, it's time to get medieval on their ass. Kick the side of the knee, IT band, Achilles, junk punch, neck crank, etc. And don't stop attacking or moving.

Warped Mindless
03-05-2020, 10:52 AM
Not exactly BJJ but I have used a technique learned from Kelly McCann against bigger guys on two occasions in real world violence...

Get to their side or back and, as hard as you possibly can, bring your leg up and stomp the back of the leg, right where the joint is. This will collapse their base and make them fall to at least one knee. The second time I used it the guy fell on one knee and his momentum caused him to fall down on his side.

Either way, it gives you an opening and options.

spelingmastir
03-05-2020, 03:19 PM
Practice and refine takedowns that you know. Recognize that it’s just more difficult to take a bigger guy down but it’s harder to do most things against a bigger guy. Isn’t that what bjj is supposed to be about? There’s no magic death touch takedown. With that said look up the leg lace that Renzo did from the rear clinch in his last mma fight.

45dotACP
03-05-2020, 03:20 PM
Take downs are for sure the weakest part of my game...and I'm the second smallest dude in my school so I'm following this thread with interest.

All I can offer is my experience, that back mount on a dude that big just isn't easy. The best hope is to wear him down. Make him chase you, touch his head, get him working. See if you can get him to shoot so you can try to sprawl into a front headlock. Put him on the defensive.

....and don't get under him ever.

Then he'll just smother you and rest while you work hard to get out. Even if you have a good guard, a heavy dude will make it suck, and if he's too big to close your guard on, he'll pass right on into side control easily if he's even sorta good.

So yeah that's my advice. Don't. Get. Under him. [emoji23]

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Cecil Burch
03-05-2020, 04:03 PM
At the end of nogi tonight we did take down king of the mountain. A couple of the rounds I ended up with one of our big guys, +/- 350#. We usually ended up in a FUT and then a scramble. One round I did get double unders and moved to the back but once on the back I didn’t feel comfortable with anything I know. Worked a sit out and couldn’t get good anchors on him or feel like I could move him if I did. I didn’t want to shoot or go low level because I was quite a bit taller than him and I did not want that weight on me in a sprawl.

Anybody have any go tos against the larger crowd?


What typically happens here is that you did not get your hips under his and therefore did not feel like you could move him. This is a common problem when fighting shorter guys.

This is the single best takedown from the back I know. Super high percentage, and if it fails, you do not end up in a bad position.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxVXdi9BCEM

Note that the ENTIRE time, the thrower's belt line is under the throwee's belt line. This is leverage. Trying to do it when your belt is above their's means you are needing much more strength and power to accomplish the task.

RevolverRob
03-05-2020, 04:55 PM
Similar to what Cecil showed, I've found that a hip throw from the side (as opposed to the back) will work against larger opponents. I'm 5'7 - 200# - I've thrown guys a foot taller than me outweighing me by 75+, wrap the arms around the abdomen (split seat-belt style if necessary) and move the backside hip in and rotate him over it. Like what Cecil showed you must have your hips lower than his waist line for this to work. Imagine you're throwing his butt over your knee and you're basically in the ballpark.

I guess maybe that's more of a "knee" trip than a hip throw, but the general idea is there. If it doesn't work, you usually end up rotating him around onto the ground and up on his back or at worst side, not the worst position(s) to be in.

Doc_Glock
03-06-2020, 09:15 AM
What did the Gracies say about how much weight equals one belt?


Every thirty pounds and each decade of age disparity equals one belt level difference between otherwise matched opponents.

Earlymonk
03-06-2020, 02:28 PM
Can't find a vid of the specific back trip finish I learned/coached, but this is in the ballpark:
Start at ~6:05.


https://youtu.be/sotKb-0SoQU?t=365

And Henry Cejudo knows a few things about being a) small and b) dangerous...


https://youtu.be/m0jQ8ae8_g8

jc000
03-09-2020, 09:30 PM
This is the single best takedown from the back I know. Super high percentage, and if it fails, you do not end up in a bad position.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxVXdi9BCEM

Not being super athletic, I use this all the time. Great takedown, I don't see it used very often. Well I guess everyone is pulling guard these days, lol.

There are probably a lot of ways this could go wrong but I personally do very well with Drop Seoi Nage:


https://youtu.be/E3k10Cu3GhI

runcible
03-13-2020, 05:39 AM
I for one am very much enjoying this discussion.

Warped Mindless
03-13-2020, 10:19 AM
I for one am very much enjoying this discussion.

Me too. I like gear talk as much as anyone but I wish we as a forum had more discussions such as this one.

45dotACP
03-13-2020, 10:44 AM
I for one am very much enjoying this discussion.Same here! Between this, and Cecil's very excellent discussion on controlling strikers from guard, I feel like my unarmed fighting IQ is getting...uh...less dumb.

Make no mistake, I'm still dumb, but now I don't get everything wrong.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Cecil Burch
03-13-2020, 12:09 PM
Me too. I like gear talk as much as anyone but I wish we as a forum had more discussions such as this one.


I am always down for that.

I actually try to not jump in on these too often or too soon, because sometimes I feel like all discussion ends afterwards. As if I am the all-knowing, unerring SME. Which could not be farther from the truth. I always talk about what I believe to be best practices, or authentic and truthful experiences, but that does not mean I am right 100% of the time. I hold out the idea that I still need to work and test, and discussion on a forum like this is a good way to make sure I am not talking out of my ass.

So please, everyone, don't be afraid to disagree with me. My wife does all the time :)

Cecil Burch
03-13-2020, 12:14 PM
Not being super athletic, I use this all the time. Great takedown, I don't see it used very often. Well I guess everyone is pulling guard these days, lol.

There are probably a lot of ways this could go wrong but I personally do very well with Drop Seoi Nage:


https://youtu.be/E3k10Cu3GhI


I think a drop Seoi is an excellent option. The main problem with it is that if it fails, you are righteously screwed. The biggest mistake people make in executing it is not dropping under the opponent's hips. Too often it just becomes a straight drop from where you are, but that gives your opponent space to counter. The above video is pretty good and she does show that, but I wish she would have hit the point a bit harder

Mitch
03-13-2020, 12:26 PM
Drop seonagi is a great sporting option. Just be aware it’s rough on your knees even on a mat.

The order of the day with big guys is getting behind them, so arm drags are great for this situation. That also helps you use any speed and mobility advantages you have.

Second best option is attacking the legs, so foot sweeps and trips.

Bratch
03-17-2020, 10:52 AM
Good conversations. Thanks guys.


What typically happens here is that you did not get your hips under his and therefore did not feel like you could move him. This is a common problem when fighting shorter guys.

This is the single best takedown from the back I know. Super high percentage, and if it fails, you do not end up in a bad position.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxVXdi9BCEM

Note that the ENTIRE time, the thrower's belt line is under the throwee's belt line. This is leverage. Trying to do it when your belt is above their's means you are needing much more strength and power to accomplish the task.


This was the exact takedown I was trying that I called a “sit out”. I think part of my problem was I was probably high with my hips but the bigger one and it may have been mental was I could not get my arms around him to anchor around his waist.

Bratch
03-17-2020, 11:01 AM
Can't find a vid of the specific back trip finish I learned/coached, but this is in the ballpark:
Start at ~6:05.


https://youtu.be/sotKb-0SoQU?t=365


I really liked the leg switch to knee staple. I’ve always done the takedown with the near side leg and try to scramble up to a dominant position.

Cecil Burch
03-17-2020, 11:26 AM
...... I think part of my problem was I was probably high with my hips but the bigger one and it may have been mental was I could not get my arms around him to anchor around his waist.


Don't worry about getting your arms around him. All you need to do is lock yourself to him, so just reach as far around as possible, and then grab the gi, or a rashguard or waistband of shorts if you are doing no-gi and pull your elbows to your ribs. This action will accomplish the same thing as getting your arms all the way around.

Paul Sharp
03-17-2020, 04:03 PM
At the end of nogi tonight we did take down king of the mountain. A couple of the rounds I ended up with one of our big guys, +/- 350#. We usually ended up in a FUT and then a scramble. One round I did get double unders and moved to the back but once on the back I didn’t feel comfortable with anything I know. Worked a sit out and couldn’t get good anchors on him or feel like I could move him if I did. I didn’t want to shoot or go low level because I was quite a bit taller than him and I did not want that weight on me in a sprawl.

Anybody have any go tos against the larger crowd?

You're correct, you do not want to end up battling out from under his sprawl regardless of size disparity. When coaching folks to solve the big mammal puzzle we focus on moving to the back. While drops are a great throw you must be brown or black belt level to even begin to think about those against bigger opponents, in my gym. (You'll still learn them but we highly discourage one from trying them against bigger opponents until a high skill and experience level). There is a reason the drop throw series were traditionally taught in the later years of the Judoka's life. Drop throws don't require a lot of athleticism however, they do require a mastery of timing, and leverage. If you don't have those, you will end up under the bigger mammal, except they are on your back.

Throws involving hip tosses or backstepping might also be problematic. Against bigger opponents I prefer leg attacks; Osoto Gari series, and Tai Otoshi series are good as they allow the smaller athlete several bail points that won't be available to them if they step through to hip toss, or back step.

WobblyPossum
03-17-2020, 04:13 PM
I finally got around to reading this thread and I’m also finding it interesting. Around Halloween I tore my ACL completely trying to hip throw a larger training partner in class. We were doing a by-the-numbers practice of countering a front bear hug into a hip throw. I’m 5’11” 150 lbs. I would estimate my partner as 6’4” 250 lbs. When I bear hugged him so he could practice his reps, there was at least a foot of space between my two hands behind his back. When it was my turn, I got one ugly looking rep completed. As soon as his weight left the ground on the second rep, my knee popped and I was immediately on the mat. Luckily he didn’t fall on top of me. I was trying to throw him over me left side and it was my left knee that blew out.

JohnO
03-17-2020, 04:41 PM
Sorry can't resist.

I think Samuel Colt developed the solution to your problem.

LittleLebowski
03-17-2020, 05:39 PM
Sorry can't resist.

I think Samuel Colt developed the solution to your problem.

Keep on topic in tech sections.

Paul Sharp
03-18-2020, 05:46 PM
I finally got around to reading this thread and I’m also finding it interesting. Around Halloween I tore my ACL completely trying to hip throw a larger training partner in class. We were doing a by-the-numbers practice of countering a front bear hug into a hip throw. I’m 5’11” 150 lbs. I would estimate my partner as 6’4” 250 lbs. When I bear hugged him so he could practice his reps, there was at least a foot of space between my two hands behind his back. When it was my turn, I got one ugly looking rep completed. As soon as his weight left the ground on the second rep, my knee popped and I was immediately on the mat. Luckily he didn’t fall on top of me. I was trying to throw him over me left side and it was my left knee that blew out.

30 pound rule my friend. If they weigh 30 pounds or more than you, take a pass. A fight is one thing, multiple repetitions during a training session just open that window for Murphy wider and wider with each rep.

Clusterfrack
03-18-2020, 05:53 PM
30 pound rule my friend. If they weigh 30 pounds or more than you, take a pass. A fight is one thing, multiple repetitions during a training session just open that window for Murphy wider and wider with each rep.

5 broken ribs, and a shoulder injury support that in my experience.

Mark D
03-18-2020, 06:47 PM
I found that in a FUT, a nice groin strike can break an opponent's balance and facilitate a take down. Used this on a bigger/stronger rugby player one night when he needed to be helped out of the bar I was working at. Not BJJ legal, and not very elegant, but surprisingly useful at the time.

ETA: Not suggesting that groin strikes (or any other "dirty" technique) are the key to martial victory. But they can sometimes be chucked in to help facilitate other techniques.

WobblyPossum
03-18-2020, 07:30 PM
30 pound rule my friend. If they weigh 30 pounds or more than you, take a pass. A fight is one thing, multiple repetitions during a training session just open that window for Murphy wider and wider with each rep.

Thanks for that tip. That’s a good rule of thumb I’ll keep in mind once I’m healed up. It sucks that I was only doing BJJ for about three months prior so the almost year I can’t train is probably going to severely diminish what minimal skills I had developed.

Le Français
03-18-2020, 07:50 PM
Thanks for that tip. That’s a good rule of thumb I’ll keep in mind once I’m healed up. It sucks that I was only doing BJJ for about three months prior so the almost year I can’t train is probably going to severely diminish what minimal skills I had developed.

Dan, I wish we worked closer to each other so we could train BJJ together after you heal. One of our guys just went to DT school, so hopefully we’ll get to roll more frequently here.

As for takedowns, when I was a patrol officer/patrol sergeant, I used a surprise takedown from behind quite a few times, which simply involved grabbing the suspects just above the waist, pinning the arms if possible, then arching my back to pick them up, swinging them around to a horizontal orientation, and setting them down on the ground to be handcuffed. It worked for various heights and sizes (I am—and was—about 5’11” 170-175).

It’s like a body slam, but controlled. I never got hurt doing this, and neither did the people on the receiving end. Deadlifting 415+ probably helped, as there is some pressure on the lower back.

Story time: I even did it to God once! I arrived at the scene of a domestic incident following a panicked 911 call. The suspect had threatened to kill the caller, and came out to meet me claiming to be God. When he turned around and walked toward a weapon, I implemented the above technique. Go(o)d stuff.

perlslacker
03-18-2020, 09:55 PM
Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, since I'm a low-to-mid level blue belt whose only wrestling qualifications are "used to do jits in Oklahoma," but:

Against bigger/taller dudes, I like a body lock outside trip sort of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUmTrAHBWTA. I find that if they're taller than me, I have an easier time getting good head position under their chin which helps get their balance. I also find that I have an easier time pummeling for underhooks if I'm shorter.

You can also do Tani Otoshi from there.

Tod-13
03-19-2020, 07:39 AM
Interesting, in Aikido, the smaller person actually has the advantage in take downs/throws, since you're already below your opponent's center of balance. With some of the very short people I worked with, I'd actually do suwariwaza (working on the knees) because I couldn't lower enough on my feet to affect them. (A lot of Aikido is taking your opponent's center of balance and lowering your center, to take them down.) In my black belt test, I missed taking the center of balance on one of the students bigger than me. (I'm 6' 1" -- he's a couple inches taller.) So I swiped his feet out from under him.

Maybe some cross training in Aikido or Hapkido might help? (Hapkido is less energy based than Aikido. One place I worked, a co-worker who studied Hapkido and I had a lot of fun comparing the similar techniques and differences.)