Carry Optics max weight changed

[TCFD273]

Just saw this in the BOD meeting minutes. Shadow 2 is now legal without lightening the slide.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200303/f7c0b7fac78bf3c08b75709a23fafe09.jpg


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[GJM]

Looks like Production is now 59 ounces as well. Makes me feel pretty small with my 30 ounce G4 17, complete with optic, grip plug and Tungsten guide rod.

[TCFD273]

Looks like Production is now 59 ounces as well. Makes me feel pretty small with my 30 ounce G4 17, complete with optic, grip plug and Tungsten guide rod.

I’m just shy of 38 with my G34.

I’m going to be picking up a S2 in the near future. I
signed up for a major in Sept, wouldn’t switch till after my season is over though.


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[Clusterfrack]

I won't be adding weight to my Production guns, but I like this. No more worrying about making weight, and everyone can choose the weight of gun that works best for them. There are advantages and disadvantages.

[GJM]

I’m just shy of 38 with my G34.

I’m going to be picking up a S2 in the near future. I
signed up for a major in Sept, wouldn’t switch till after my season is over though.


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How do you get to near 38 ounces?

49422

My Open gun is nowhere near 59.

49423

[StraitR]

Here's how you get to 59oz. Just add RMR.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePvrig3UIL8

[jbrimlow]

At this point, why even have a weight limit?

Also, I'm chuckling at the "holster must be suitable for everyday use" phrasing now.

[TCFD273]

How do you get to near 38 ounces?

49422

My Open gun is nowhere near 59.

49423

Trijicon SRO
Tungsten guide rod
Thug Plug
Brass magazine extensions




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[jbrimlow]

Trijicon SRO
Tungsten guide rod
Thug Plug
Brass magazine extensions




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't realize they made brass mag extensions. Cool. Thanks!

[MGW]

Why would they raise production weight limits to 59 ounces?

[GJM]

Why would they raise production weight limits to 59 ounces?

They figured they would do it now, in case Bernie gets elected and they can’t do it later.

[cheby]

It's ridiculous IMHO. Production my ass

[cheby]

Looks like it clears the weight limitation for the shadow 2 optics ready model. CZ USA will be importing them to the USA since they had been available everywhere but in the US because it doesn’t make weight in the current 45 oz limit for carry optics.

[YVK]

Why would they raise production weight limits to 59 ounces?

They have been adding an ounce here and two there, and now decided to just get done with it and raise the bar so a truck can drive under it. Literally.
@cheby (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=8327) is right, CZ USA must have hired a strong lobbying firm. I wonder of there's anything heavier than tungsten that SIG can melt into their grips to keep the top CO gun place.

P.S. I read but not verified myself that a proposal to move Production to 15 rounds didn't pass. Strong work, keep killing the division. I also read that the 59 oz is also a new Production weight limit.
I wanna meet him in person if I can get a chance. That one guy who will compete with a 59 oz gun loaded with ten 9 mm bullets. And one in chamber, of course.

[jbrimlow]

I think (unless I missed it last year) they also dropped the required minimum number of units sold from 2,000 to 500 for the Production List.

Maybe the CZC A01-LD is also going to come to Prod and CO.

[BigT]

Methinks the Legions position as the most popular CO gun will be ending very soon.

[Eyesquared]

I'm excited to see the insanely heavy Shadow 2s people will set up now. Wonder how much one weighs with a tungsten guide rod, brass mag extension, and Eric Grauffel brass grips. :p

[cheby]

Anyone that lobbied to have this happen is ruining Production.
Prod should not have gas pedals and $1800 guns

[Eyesquared]

I think the weight change in CO makes some sense (it's stupid that one of the most popular pistols needs additional slide cuts to even be legal) but doing it in Prod strikes me as incredibly pointless.

[BigT]

Allowing the most popular gun in IPSC PO does make sense.

[Alpha Sierra]

P.S. I read but not verified myself that a proposal to move Production to 15 rounds didn't pass. Strong work, keep killing the division.

+1 Not only should Prod be 15 rounds, so should CO.

If what you heard is true, combined with the higher weight limit for CO, just about guarantees Production's slide into L10 oblivion at least around where I live.

In the end, I have other priorities besides keeping up with the Joneses so the CO changes have no impact on me personally.

[BigT]

Weirdly as someone who shoots PO the one CO rule I would like is the 140mm magazine one, to make it more than just Prod with a dot.

[GJM]

In our area, the heat in local matches is in CO, Limited, Open and PCC, and while there are differences between those divisions, 140mm mags give me an opportunity to compete with PCC/Open/Limited in local matches. Since arrays are generally eight rounds, 15 rounds is like a beer and a half when everyone else has a pitcher. CO is overwhelmingly the fastest growing USPSA division in our area, and going to 15 rounds would seriously dent that growth.

[Zincwarrior]

Methinks the Legions position as the most popular CO gun will be ending very soon.

Well "coincidentally" SIG just came out with a metal frame SIG 320 X5...

[Alpha Sierra]

With 15 rounds in the mag, and most starts being loaded and holstered, Production shooters get enough ammo for two arrays. You end up with a slide lock reload which is not a big deal if you do it on the run (no time lost).

[jbrimlow]

P.S. I read but not verified myself that a proposal to move Production to 15 rounds didn't pass.

For what it's worth, I heard that too. I can't find where I heard it again though.


ETA: Aha, here it is, from the BOD minutes:

Discussion led by Area 2 about increasing capacity in Production Division to 15 rounds. Failed by unanimous consensus without support or motion.

[cheby]

For what it's worth, I heard that too. I can't find where I heard it again though.

Yes, I've read it too. I didn't expect this to pass for political reasons. California, for example, used to have one of the biggest shooting scenes. We need to protect people in such states to promote our sport.
Personally, I don't care about 10rds vs 15rds production limits. This is not the biggest issue with the division .

[Duces Tecum]

Why would they raise production weight limits to 59 ounces?

Perhaps to accommodate the DWX (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/dwx/) which is 43 ounces bare. Add a pound for this-'n-that and Voila! 59 ounces.

[cheby]

Perhaps to accommodate the DWX (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/dwx/) which is 43 ounces bare. Add a pound for this-'n-that and Voila! 59 ounces.
DWX is a single action gun. Not allowed in Production

[TCFD273]

In our area, the heat in local matches is in CO, Limited, Open and PCC, and while there are differences between those divisions, 140mm mags give me an opportunity to compete with PCC/Open/Limited in local matches. Since arrays are generally eight rounds, 15 rounds is like a beer and a half when everyone else has a pitcher. CO is overwhelmingly the fastest growing USPSA division in our area, and going to 15 rounds would seriously dent that growth.

Same here. Less than 10% are shooting production.


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[Alpha Sierra]

I didn't expect this to pass for political reasons. California, for example, used to have one of the biggest shooting scenes. We need to protect people in such states to promote our sport.
Keeping Production limited to 10 rounds because very few states have a 10 round limit fails any logic test imaginable.

If production needs to be limited to 10 rounds nationwide to keep it viable in a few states, why not too for every other division?

If people can shoot Open in capacity limited states without affecting how Open is played in non-capacity limited states, why can't they self limit Production to 10 rounds in their states while the rest of us do something else?

[Zincwarrior]

Keeping Production limited to 10 rounds because very few states have a 10 round limit fails any logic test imaginable.

If production needs to be limited to 10 rounds nationwide to keep it viable in a few states, why not too for every other division?

If people can shoot Open in capacity limited states without affecting how Open is played in non-capacity limited states, why can't they self limit Production to 10 rounds in their states while the rest of us do something else?

Production is also a gateway to people coming over from IDPA, which is limited to 10.

Also, I wouldn't go making round count changes over the next 24 months...

[Alpha Sierra]

Production is also a gateway to people coming over from IDPA, which is limited to 10.

Artificially limited to 10.

So they can put five more rounds in their 17 - 19 round magazines when they come to try our game. Which happens a whole lot less often than most seem to think.

IME there's very little crossover between both sports as far as shooters go. It's two completely different mentalities. I started there and never looked back once I got a taste of USPSA.

[HCM]

Keeping Production limited to 10 rounds because very few states have a 10 round limit fails any logic test imaginable.

If production needs to be limited to 10 rounds nationwide to keep it viable in a few states, why not too for every other division?

If people can shoot Open in capacity limited states without affecting how Open is played in non-capacity limited states, why can't they self limit Production to 10 rounds in their states while the rest of us do something else?

A few states but unfortunately those few states have large populations including things like military bases which tend to have large reservoirs of shooters.

[cheby]

Keeping Production limited to 10 rounds because very few states have a 10 round limit fails any logic test imaginable.

If production needs to be limited to 10 rounds nationwide to keep it viable in a few states, why not too for every other division?

If people can shoot Open in capacity limited states without affecting how Open is played in non-capacity limited states, why can't they self limit Production to 10 rounds in their states while the rest of us do something else?

Actually I agree. Should be 15rds to be identical to IPSC

[taadski]

IME there's very little crossover between both sports as far as shooters go. It's two completely different mentalities. I started there and never looked back once I got a taste of USPSA.


I say horse-puckey. :)

I can't argue against your experience, but in my neck of the woods AND at the major match regional/national level, there's quite a healthy overlap of competitors who shoot both sports.

[Alpha Sierra]

A few states but unfortunately those few states have large populations including things like military bases which tend to have large reservoirs of shooters.

Changing Production to 15 rounds will have zero effect on them, just like the fact that Open, Limited, and Carry Optics all have no capacity restrictions.

[taadski]

My jaded (and likely unpopular) two cents…

I’ve long argued that Production division should be just that… a division, like SSP, that folks can be competitive in with an out of the box pistol and out of the box magazines. The new weight bump just moves things further down the custom pistol road and away from that concept. I have a sad.

Re capacity, I like the Production 10 round limit. I’ve really enjoyed going back and forth between production and SS minor without having to make stage plan adjustments and being able to compare scores and performance apples to apples. I wouldn’t be too shattered if Production went to 15 rounds, as it'd still keep with the “stock” concept above, but I’m pretty happy where it is.

I originally liked the concept of “Production Optics” in USPSA. In particular b/c it’d have offered the ability to compare results with other minor/low cap divisions. I’d personally preferred if it had stayed consistent with Production. All that said, I currently find myself on Henning’s webpage shopping for extended base pads such that I might dabble in some CO in the months to come. I guess we’ll see if I change my tune. :)

[Zincwarrior]

I say horse-puckey. :)

I can't argue against your experience, but in my neck of the woods AND at the major match regional/national level, there's quite a healthy overlap of competitors who shoot both sports.


I was going to suggest otherwise as well,. but didn't want to ignite the inevitable flame war between IDPA and USPSA.

[Clusterfrack]

CZ Custom's A-01 line is making more sense now...

49441

[Trigger]

How do you get to near 38 ounces?

49422

My Open gun is nowhere near 59.

49423

Thumbs up for Ed Cameron!

[YVK]

+1 Not only should Prod be 15 rounds, so should CO.



I am pretty happy with 140 mm mags. Some people compete against themselves, others against their own division, and then others compete for overall. For some it is not important, for others it is. CO with 140 mags has started to give Limited a decent amount of competition, much like what PCC [like the division or not] did to Open. Totally a good thing in my book.




My jaded (and likely unpopular) two cents…

I’ve long argued that Production division should be just that… a division, like SSP, that folks can be competitive in with an out of the box pistol and out of the box magazines. The new weight bump just moves things further down the custom pistol road and away from that concept. I have a sad.



In theory, I would be happy to see a RealProduction division with 15 rounds capacity and service/carry trigger weight requirements. In practice, I don't know how rules could regulate away from purpose built thingies like Shadows, Tanfos, or steel framed Walthers and SIGs.


A separate thought: there has got to be a weight threshold after which extra weight is counterproductive to better performance. My CO Shadows had a lot of surgeries to make them compliant with old rules, they are at about 43.5 oz and I don't see much decline in any measurable parameters that should be affected by weight when comparing to me shooting a 47 oz stock Shadow 2.

[BigT]

CZ Custom's A-01 line is making more sense now...

49441


Shot a PO one of those in Serbia last year. I could definitely find space in my safe for one.

[Olim9]

At this point, why even have a weight limit?

Also, I'm chuckling at the "holster must be suitable for everyday use" phrasing now.

I haven’t shot USPSA in a hot minute but I’m assuming AIWB is still prohibited in CO...

[jbrimlow]

A separate thought: there has got to be a weight threshold after which extra weight is counterproductive to better performance. My CO Shadows had a lot of surgeries to make them compliant with old rules, they are at about 43.5 oz and I don't see much decline in any measurable parameters that should be affected by weight when comparing to me shooting a 47 oz stock Shadow 2.

That seems like it would be the case, but I don't know where that point is. Apocryphally, My open gun keeps getting heavier and I keep liking that better (it's like...62? oz now). Now, I'm no Christian Sailer, but lots of the top guys have open guns with lots of steel parts (steel grips, big heavy magwells) and likely plenty of weight. And those are compensated.

[cheby]

CZ Custom's A-01 line is making more sense now...

49441

Can anyone enlighten me how this is different from limited 10 minor? Even double action is 5#.
What's the damn point of having different divisions than???

[cheby]

A separate thought: there has got to be a weight threshold after which extra weight is counterproductive to better performance. My CO Shadows had a lot of surgeries to make them compliant with old rules, they are at about 43.5 oz and I don't see much decline in any measurable parameters that should be affected by weight when comparing to me shooting a 47 oz stock Shadow 2.

Weight definitely helps with the recoil control. It does come with a price of more difficult transitions. Transition is easier to train in my opinion. I think the threshold depends on individual body types and strength

[Clusterfrack]

Can anyone enlighten me how this is different from limited 10 minor? Even double action is 5#.
What's the damn point of having different divisions than???

It's a good question.

Production now is: minor, low cap, not a 1911.

You would know better than I if a 1911/2011 SA trigger is a significant advantage. Personally, I like the challenge of a SA/DA trigger, and the IPSC Production rules (http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf) of 5lbs for first shot or 3lbs for every shot make sense to me. All the rule changes in USPSA are getting tiresome, but I would be in favor of a trigger weight rule for Production.

It's interesting how Production and CO are driving further exploration of the handgun design space. I definitely find that there is a tradeoff to heavier guns. I've been tempted to try shooting a match with a P-07 to compare. For sure, I have zero plans to add weight to my Production gun or buy an AO1.

[jbrimlow]

It's interesting how Production and CO are driving further exploration of the handgun design space. I definitely find that there is a tradeoff to heavier guns. I've been tempted to try shooting a match with a P-07 to compare. For sure, I have zero plans to add weight to my Production gun or buy an AO1.

What tradeoffs do you see? Do you have some drill times to compare?

[Clusterfrack]

What tradeoffs do you see? Do you have some drill times to compare?

As cheby said, some types of transitions are faster with a lighter gun. And I find it easier to get a lighter gun back on target after a reload as well, but we’re talking ~0.1s differences.

I don’t have direct comparisons because a subcompact polymer vs a Shadow2 isn’t just about weight. It would be an interesting study...

But, I just like the S2 in so many ways that I won’t be changing anytime soon.

[Zincwarrior]

As cheby said, some types of transitions are faster with a lighter gun. And I find it easier to get a lighter gun back on target after a reload as well, but we’re talking ~0.1s differences.

I don’t have direct comparisons because a subcompact polymer vs a Shadow2 isn’t just about weight. It would be an interesting study...

But, I just like the S2 in so many ways that I won’t be changing anytime soon.

One could test this with a Sig X5. Try reps with a an X5 and then swap out the frame for the heavier Legion frame.

[cheby]

I think any gun handling is faster with the lighter gun as well.

[Clusterfrack]

One could test this with a Sig X5. Try reps with a an X5 and then swap out the frame for the heavier Legion frame.

Yep. Great idea. Anyone got that gun?

[Clusterfrack]

I think any gun handling is faster with the lighter gun as well.

One would think so, except I find that my draws and transitions feel more "critically damped" with the steel gun than with polymer. Maybe a little slower to move, but it stops more precisely where I'm looking. Might just be what I'm used to.

[Zincwarrior]

Yep. Great idea. Anyone got that gun?
I do but I am a terrible shooter...

[cheby]

Might just be what I'm used to.

This is the challenge of doing any meaningful comparison because gun handling is what suffers the most while switching between guns

[CleverNickname]

Could this be a prelude to splitting CO into CO and CO Light, like IPSC Production Optics and Production Optics Light?

[Alpha Sierra]

Could this be a prelude to splitting CO into CO and CO Light, like IPSC Production Optics and Production Optics Light?

Doubt it

[cheby]

Could this be a prelude to splitting CO into CO and CO Light, like IPSC Production Optics and Production Optics Light?

I really don't like this idea because diluting competition is already a problem

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Im a cz fanboi, and I find this rule change to be dumb.

45oz is a legit weight limit for the UPPER end of "carry" anything. They should just change the name to welfare open.

IMO Prod and CO should have a 45oz weight limit as well as minimum trigger pulls. If no minimum trigger pull they should allow SAO, since SAO strikers are already allowed.

[GJM]

Im a cz fanboi, and I find this rule change to be dumb.

45oz is a legit weight limit for the UPPER end of "carry" anything. They should just change the name to welfare open.

IMO Prod and CO should have a 45oz weight limit as well as minimum trigger pulls. If no minimum trigger pull they should allow SAO, since SAO strikers are already allowed.

How many people are really carrying 45 ounce empty weight pistols?

[psalms144.1]

I occasionally haul around a 5" all steel 1911. That's 42 ounces unloaded. I can't imagine hauling around an extra 17 ounces without a sling. Seriously, that's only 11 ounces shy of the weight of my MP5KN...

[TicTacticalTimmy]

How many people are really carrying 45 ounce empty weight pistols?

Personally I have spent a fair bit of time carrying a Witness Steel 10mm, a Sarsilmaz K2 .45, and an SP-01. All of those are around 41oz unloaded and the first two have extra heavy ammo. I would be lying if I said I have carried any in the past year or so, besides the 10mm on a couple occasions, since I have smaller/lighter options with "close enough" performance. The first two were my main handguns when I was new-ish to handguns and didnt know any better, but they were and are perfectly comfortable with a hybrid holster and decent quality leather belt. I am sure with a higher quality holster and a gun belt they would be even easier to carry around.

In my mind 45oz is the upper limit of what I would carry, whereas 59oz is just silly.

[cheby]

IMO Prod and CO should have a 45oz weight limit as well as minimum trigger pulls. If no minimum trigger pull they should allow SAO, since SAO strikers are already allowed.

This is why I don't see a problem combining SS and Production

[TCFD273]

How many people are really carrying 45 ounce empty weight pistols?


I occasionally haul around a 5" all steel 1911. That's 42 ounces unloaded. I can't imagine hauling around an extra 17 ounces without a sling. Seriously, that's only 11 ounces shy of the weight of my MP5KN...

Heaviest gun I’ve carried was a Springfield Professional operator. Anything but OWB was miserable.

There has to be a break over where a heavy gun is a detriment, right?

Few weeks back Stoeger was advocating for no additional weight to the G34 CO gun he has and has competed with. I am faster (transitions) with my CO 34 vs a stock weight 34. Took some time though.

I’m looking forward to the end of the year when I start playing around with a S2 for CO.


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[Alpha Sierra]

Im a cz fanboi, and I find this rule change to be dumb.

45oz is a legit weight limit for the UPPER end of "carry" anything. They should just change the name to welfare open.

IMO Prod and CO should have a 45oz weight limit as well as minimum trigger pulls. If no minimum trigger pull they should allow SAO, since SAO strikers are already allowed.


This is why I don't see a problem combining SS and Production

I used to think combining SS and Production was not a good idea but I'm starting to change my tune

[Clusterfrack]

What tradeoffs do you see? Do you have some drill times to compare?

I finished today's practice with the very hosey classifier CM 99-23 Front Sight (https://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/99-23.pdf). Two strings of 2-2-2 on three open metric targets at 7 yds. The targets are 7.5' apart so the transitions are wide. I also shot a run with my carry gun (CZ P-07 Prograde). All the times were very close (around 2.4s for string 1 and 2.0-2.2s for string 2) because that's how I was shooting it. Here are the results:

Shadow2: -3C 12.4 HF (96%)
Shadow2: -4C, 12.06 HF (94%)
P-07: -1C, 12.5 HF (97.4%)

This was a WTF for me, and I didn't expect it. But in hindsight it kind of makes sense. I felt like it was easier to stop the very light P-07 on target during a wide transition, and the turn-and-draw felt faster/more precise. The recoil impulses of the two guns feel very similar despite the weight difference because I'm very comfortable with them both. At only 7yds I'm shooting entirely target focus.

Of course my best run was the last one, and it could have just been that. However, it does seem clear that my light compact carry gun isn't much of a disadvantage at this type of shooting.

[cheby]

I finished today's practice with the very hosey classifier CM 99-23 Front Sight (https://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/99-23.pdf). Two strings of 2-2-2 on three open metric targets at 7 yds. The targets are 7.5' apart so the transitions are wide. I also shot a run with my carry gun (CZ P-07 Prograde). All the times were very close (around 2.4s for string 1 and 2.0-2.2s for string 2) because that's how I was shooting it. Here are the results:

Shadow2: -3C 12.4 HF (96%)
Shadow2: -4C, 12.06 HF (94%)
P-07: -1C, 12.5 HF (97.4%)

This was a WTF for me, and I didn't expect it. But in hindsight it kind of makes sense. I felt like it was easier to stop the very light P-07 on target during a wide transition, and the turn-and-draw felt faster/more precise. The recoil impulses of the two guns feel very similar despite the weight difference because I'm very comfortable with them both. At only 7yds I'm shooting entirely target focus.

Of course my best run was the last one, and it could have just been that. However, it does seem clear that my light compact carry gun isn't much of a disadvantage at this type of shooting.

Here is another test. Go and shoot, say, Baseball Standards classifier with both guns . I am pretty sure it's going to be opposite. The point is gear matters and it works differently for different shooting situations and matches.

[Clusterfrack]

Here is another test. Go and shoot, say, Baseball Standards classifier with both guns . I am pretty sure it's going to be opposite. The point is gear matters and it works differently for different shooting situations and matches.

Yup. Agree. I did 6 in 6 Challenge today also, and wouldn’t want to try that with the P-07.

[jbrimlow]

I finished today's practice with the very hosey classifier CM 99-23 Front Sight (https://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/99-23.pdf). Two strings of 2-2-2 on three open metric targets at 7 yds. The targets are 7.5' apart so the transitions are wide. I also shot a run with my carry gun (CZ P-07 Prograde). All the times were very close (around 2.4s for string 1 and 2.0-2.2s for string 2) because that's how I was shooting it. Here are the results:

Shadow2: -3C 12.4 HF (96%)
Shadow2: -4C, 12.06 HF (94%)
P-07: -1C, 12.5 HF (97.4%)

This was a WTF for me, and I didn't expect it. But in hindsight it kind of makes sense. I felt like it was easier to stop the very light P-07 on target during a wide transition, and the turn-and-draw felt faster/more precise. The recoil impulses of the two guns feel very similar despite the weight difference because I'm very comfortable with them both. At only 7yds I'm shooting entirely target focus.

Of course my best run was the last one, and it could have just been that. However, it does seem clear that my light compact carry gun isn't much of a disadvantage at this type of shooting.

Very interesting. Thanks for running that.

[Medusa]

Yup. Agree. I did 6 in 6 Challenge today also, and wouldn’t want to try that with the P-07.
My Google fu is weak this morning. What is 6 in 6 challenge ?

[Clusterfrack]

My Google fu is weak this morning. What is 6 in 6 challenge ?

CM 09-01
Set timer to six seconds for all strings.
75 ft. On signal, engage targets with two rounds each, make a mandatory reload and reengage targets with two rounds each.
45 ft. On signal, engage targets with two rounds each strong hand only.
30 ft. On signal, engage targets with two rounds each weak hand only.

High Hit Factor is 91.5 in Production. Not an easy classifier.

[fwrun]

CM 09-01
High Hit Factor is 91.5 in Production. Not an easy classifier.

It's not a horribly hard classifier to hit 85% on. In CO, you can do that without the mandatory reload at the beginning. Its that M-GM jump that really takes some skill.

[Clusterfrack]

It's not a horribly hard classifier to hit 85% on. In CO, you can do that without the mandatory reload at the beginning. Its that M-GM jump that really takes some skill.

Yep. Have to get at least one good hit after the reload.

[cheby]

In CO, you can do that without the mandatory reload at the beginning. Its that M-GM jump that really takes some skill.

BTW, this classifier is the example that CO is probably the best division right now to move up in your classification. Many CO HHFs are based on Production which on this classifier is just wrong.

[fwrun]

BTW, this classifier is the example that CO is probably the best division right now to move up in your classification. Many CO HHFs are based on Production which on this classifier is just wrong.

I don’t want to derail too much, but the recent BOD meeting addressed the myth of certain divisions being easier to move up in, and statistics showed that it doesn’t bear out as dramatically as people think....

On this classifier, both are scored minor, both fire no more than 6 per mag, and neither can have magwells. I’m not seeing the gross injustice on this classifier.

[cheby]

I don’t want to derail too much, but the recent BOD meeting addressed the myth of certain divisions being easier to move up in, and statistics showed that it doesn’t bear out as dramatically as people think....

On this classifier, both are scored minor, both fire no more than 6 per mag, and neither can have magwells. I’m not seeing the gross injustice on this classifier.

dot vs Iron sights at 25yrds - that's the difference

[fwrun]

dot vs Iron sights at 25yrds - that's the difference

Which is then offset by the one handed shooting at closer distances. Easier to shoot at 25 with a dot. Harder to lose irons when shooting weak hand only.

[cheby]

Harder to lose irons when shooting weak hand only.
What?? No, you are doing it wrong. 6 Sec to shoot 6 shots at 10 yrds WHO is very generous and it is the easiest part of this classifier. 6 Sec to shoot 6, reload, shoot 6 at 25yrds, on the other hand, a very different story and it is 50% of the score on this classifier.
This classifier is all about the 25yrd part.

[Bucky]

I don’t get why such a radical change.

Admittedly, this helps me, slightly. When I did my Shadow 2 to meet previous rules, I didn’t like the grips. I put the stock grips back on, and was teetering on the limit. I was going to punch some holes in the factory grips to give me a better buffer. Glad I procrastinated.

The problem with these changes aren't the changes themselves, it’s the new precedent that is set. Changes will now come at the will of the governing body, with likely little or no input from the majority (but rather a loud and / or elitist minority). If today’s changes don’t impact you, tomorrow’s will.

[GJM]

Increasing the maximum weight doesn’t bother me, but I will be pissed off if they implement a minimum weight and my Glock 17 becomes illegal, on the theory my pistol is too easy to transition with. :p

[Bucky]

Increasing the maximum weight doesn’t bother me, but I will be pissed off if they implement a minimum weight and my Glock 17 becomes illegal, on the theory my pistol is too easy to transition with. :p

If they do, they'll probably let you hang a weight on it, so there is that. ;)

[olstyn]

So with effectively no weight limit for CO and Production now, how long until we start seeing some truly exotic guide rod and grip plug materials? Depleted uranium is denser than tungsten, right? :P

[Bergeron]

I would be happy to stand in line and pay big money for DU gun parts, 'cuz DU, but then it would be difficult to keep myself from looking for neutron sources. If ya give a mouse a cookie...

[spinmove_]

So with effectively no weight limit for CO and Production now, how long until we start seeing some truly exotic guide rod and grip plug materials? Depleted uranium is denser than tungsten, right? :P

I mean, you can bolt all the depleted uranium parts to your Glock all you want to 59oz. Nils Jonasson is still going to kick almost everyone’s ass with a Canik that’s been lightly fiddled with. You’re still better served spending the money on ammo.

[olstyn]

I mean, you can bolt all the depleted uranium parts to your Glock all you want to 59oz. Nils Jonasson is still going to kick almost everyone’s ass with a Canik that’s been lightly fiddled with. You’re still better served spending the money on ammo.

Was it somehow unclear that I was joking?

[fwrun]

So with effectively no weight limit for CO and Production now, how long until we start seeing some truly exotic guide rod and grip plug materials? Depleted uranium is denser than tungsten, right? :P

Tungsten is actually more dense than DU

[olstyn]

Tungsten is actually more dense than DU

Huh, that's surprising given their relative positions on the periodic table, but I just looked it up and you're right; it's a very slight difference, but tungsten is more dense. Now my joke falls even flatter.

[spinmove_]

Was it somehow unclear that I was joking?

I got the joke. Some people really think that though. Just threw out my statement to bring those lurkers back to reality. ;)

[cheby]

I am listening to the latest Stoeger podcast. The discussion is about the latest rule changes as well as about the USPSA divisions in general. Some of the points:

1. Production is dead.
2. CO is going to be the most popular division
3. L10 and Revolver need to go
4. PCC should be completely separate

and much more...

I've been thinking along those lines for quite a while myself.

https://youtu.be/mLODz2QLsJg

[Clusterfrack]

Yes, that was an interesting discussion. I’m optimistic that enough serious competitors will keep Production alive, at least at Level 2 and 3 matches. I like the challenges it offers, and intend to keep playing in that Division.

I thought the most important point was about stage design catering to high cap divisions and PCC. I’m not a fan of hoser style stage design that doesn’t require much movement. Fortunately, we have some good matches around here that include more interesting shooting challenges.

[Alpha Sierra]

L10 and Revolver need to go

Don't care what the cool kids think. Getting rid of those two will improve nothing and will achieve nothing.

[Sal Picante]

Don't care what the cool kids think. Getting rid of those two will improve nothing and will achieve nothing.

... except peace of mind.

[Alpha Sierra]

... except peace of mind.

For the people who shoot neither? They should mind their own business.

[Medusa]

I enjoy production since my focus is idpa ssp, though I have only limited interest re USPSA in anything but local matches. It’s great to shoot matches with people like you and other shooters I consider excellent in production at locals, for obvious reasons to anyone trying to improve.

Not planning on shooting limited ever except if someday idpa allows aiwb then I would do limited aiwb. That doesn’t seem likely.



Yes, that was an interesting discussion. I’m optimistic that enough serious competitors will keep Production alive, at least at Level 2 and 3 matches. I like the challenges it offers, and intend to keep playing in that Division.

I thought the most important point was about stage design catering to high cap divisions and PCC. I’m not a fan of hoser style stage design that doesn’t require much movement. Fortunately, we have some good matches around here that include more interesting shooting challenges.

[olstyn]

Not planning on shooting limited ever except if someday idpa allows aiwb then I would do limited aiwb. That doesn’t seem likely.

I primarily shoot Production, but some years back, I started shooting Limited minor in my indoor winter "outlaw" league with my Production gun. I did it on a lark, because I just wanted to see how it felt to load the mags all the way up. I still shoot Production all summer long, but I love the different thought process that comes with shooting Limited, so I do my whole winter indoor season as Limited. I even finally got around to buying a couple of +6/140mm mag extensions to throw on for the winter this year. Starting with 22 rounds in the gun is a whole different feeling, and it's a lot of fun. I think that sometimes people get too wound up in being completely serious about things and forget that this stuff is fun too. I would urge you to try Limited at least once just for the experience, even if only with your Production gun loaded up to full capacity. You may not enjoy it the way I have, but even if you don't, it's only one "throwaway" match. :)

[Alpha Sierra]

USPSA matches, on the overall, provide a much more comprehensive test of practical shooting ability and skill than IDPA ever will.

The larger stages with higher number of targets, coupled with the freestyle nature of the sport, combine to force you to come up with a stage plan quickly then forces you to execute that plan while actively shooting.

That means that your shooting needs to get to the point where it becomes mostly a subconscious activity freeing up your brain to deal with executing the stage plan and dealing with unforeseen issues.

IMO, competing only in IDPA slows down that development because stages there are simpler, smaller, and are shot in a highly prescripted way.

[Medusa]

I’m not aware of anyone in the thread who only shoots idpa. I certainly don’t. I shoot idpa, uspsa, and speed steel.

Around here, from what I have seen in the last year, idpa does a better job testing unusual shooting positions, shooting out of cars, prone, etc., SHO and WHO shooting; and the lack of extensive walkthroughs - you just get a few minutes right before your squad shoots - forces a quick stage plan. The emphasis on slide lock reload is arguably more realistic.

They are all games. They all provide some benefit. I play them all.

[Sal Picante]

For the people who shoot neither? They should mind their own business.

Even jetfire thinks revolver in USPSA is lame.

(Says the guy who actually has Revo & L10 classifiers on record...)

[Alpha Sierra]

Even jetfire thinks revolver in USPSA is lame.

(Says the guy who actually has Revo & L10 classifiers on record...)

OK, so neither of you shoot either division any more.

Some people actually want to do so. Who is anyone to tell them to fuck off they're not welcome any more?

Getting rid of low participation divisions will absolutely NOT lower any overhead or costs at either USPSA HQ or any match regardless of level. The use of Practiscore has made that overhead a fixed cost regardless of whether there's 1 or 1000 divisions programmed in it. Same for match management.

Competitive dilution, the other argument, is also an illusion. The people who shoot revolvers do so because they have no interest in shooting something else. Getting rid of their division isn't really going to make that small number of hardcore wheelgun shooters say "cool, I'll shoot carry optics tomorrow". They'll likely either stop shooting USPSA or stop shooting handguns competitively is my guess.

[jetfire]

Even jetfire thinks revolver in USPSA is lame.

(Says the guy who actually has Revo & L10 classifiers on record...)

That's because adding 8-shot revolvers and allowing minor scoring ruined revolver. You absolutely have to have an 8-shooter if you want to be competitive. Out of only 31 shooters at Nationals last year, 2 shot major. 2!

I'm also willing to bet that every single one of those guys who shot Nationals also shot ICORE Nationals, which is a better match for revolver shooters, period. I don't think USPSA should get rid of the division, mostly because I still shoot revolver, but I also am not going to cry my eyes out if they do kill it.

I do think they should keep it for Steel Challenge, because they have 533 divisions at Steel Challenge anyway.

[Bucky]

I do think they should keep it for Steel Challenge, because they have 533 divisions at Steel Challenge anyway.

That may not even be an exaggeration. ;)

[jetfire]

That may not even be an exaggeration. ;)

The first year I shot The Steel Challenge (the big one) was back in 2011 when it was still in Piru. Back then they had their own divisions, plus they had all the IDPA divisions. They also still! have two revolver divisions.

[RJ]

Right, why am I bumping this year old thread? Well, I missed it, because I was busy with other things, and wasn't shooting CO at the time. I've recently moved from P (G19) to CO (G34) and obviously I need to get with the programme, so I'm not left behind in the CO arms race. My G34 has a Holosun 507c v2, so the "Noob CO shooter who could not afford a RMR" box is checked.

Now, what else do I need?

I have a brass Thugplug already. A tungsten guide rod? Of course!

But, what magazines? I've got my Gen5 Glock 17 mags already, but I need to make them 140mm length, right? What's the most robust extended basepad (and the heaviest, naturally!) I can get? Taran? Springer? Taylor Freelance?

[GJM]

Right, why am I bumping this year old thread? Well, I missed it, because I was busy with other things, and wasn't shooting CO at the time. I've recently moved from P (G19) to CO (G34) and obviously I need to get with the programme, so I'm not left behind in the CO arms race. My G34 has a Holosun 507c v2, so the "Noob CO shooter who could not afford a RMR" box is checked.

Now, what else do I need?

I have a brass Thugplug already. A tungsten guide rod? Of course!

But, what magazines? I've got my Gen5 Glock 17 mags already, but I need to make them 140mm length, right? What's the most robust extended basepad (and the heaviest, naturally!) I can get? Taran? Springer? Taylor Freelance?

1) after your thug, I think an X300 is a great way to add weight in the right place and not introduce unintended effects that can come with a RSA change. I am ambivalent about the tungsten guide rod, but if I got one, I would go 15 pounds on the spring.

2) I think the Holosun is a better gaming optic than a RMR, as it is taller vertically, and gives you reticle choices for adverse light. Single dot for most situations, circle or circle dot for low light. Lots of reticle draws your focus from the target, which is undesirable for most lighting.

3) you might wanted an extended mag release. I like this one:

https://www.tyrantcnc.com/gen4-gen5-glock-extended-magazine-release.html

4) I would be careful with heavy weighted base pads with a Glock, as they can cause accelerated wear and fall out.most people use the Taran 140 extensions.

[Bucky]

But, what magazines? I've got my Gen5 Glock 17 mags already, but I need to make them 140mm length, right? What's the most robust extended basepad (and the heaviest, naturally!) I can get? Taran? Springer? Taylor Freelance?

I run the Dawson pads on my Glocks. I like that you don’t have to contort the springs to take them on and off.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

1) after your thug, I think an X300 is a great way to add weight in the right place and not introduce unintended effects that can come with a RSA change. I am ambivalent about the tungsten guide rod, but if I got one, I would go 15 pounds on the spring.

2) I think the Holosun is a better gaming optic than a RMR, as it is taller vertically, and gives you reticle choices for adverse light. Single dot for most situations, circle or circle dot for low light. Lots of reticle draws your focus from the target, which is undesirable for most lighting.

3) you might wanted an extended mag release. I like this one:

https://www.tyrantcnc.com/gen4-gen5-glock-extended-magazine-release.html

4) I would be careful with heavy weighted base pads with a Glock, as they can cause accelerated wear and fall out.most people use the Taran 140 extensions.

I may add a Holosun to the SRO stable, which do ya rec. for gaming & thoughts on an ext. mag release for the gen 2 COREs, is it even necessary?

[YVK]

In my book of Glocking if you wanna game the hell out of it, as you're obviously doing with all that extra weight all over, the most important upgrade is trigger. I hear Timney released their new wonder trigger for Gen5.

I used Taylor brass extensions. GJM pointing out that heavy extensions may fall out comes from my experience. I'd still use them but I'd make sure mag bodies are fresh and mag catch is fresh too. They do give 4 oz of extra weight.

[GJM]

I may add a Holosun to the SRO stable, which do ya rec. for gaming & thoughts on an ext. mag release for the gen 2 COREs, is it even necessary?

I really don’t recommend any Holosun for gaming, except a 509T for matches in the rain! For gaming, I like the Springer Precision M&P mag release.