Wilson Combat dropping 460 Rowland, 38 Super, and 40 S&W pistols this year

[David C.]

Per email from Wilson Combat; all current orders will be completed, future orders limited to the current inventory of barrels.

[StraitR]

If you spent any time on 1911 Addicts you would think 36 Super is the next coming. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[TC215]

I’ve only had one .38 Super, but I liked it a lot.

I’ve read on a couple other forums that Wilson only built 10 .38 Supers last year. Don’t know if that’s true or not.

[Robinson]

I'm sort of in my own 38 Super phase right now but I have a feeling most people who shoot the Super are doing so in Colts and Dan Wessons.

[GJM]

Per email from Wilson Combat; all current orders will be completed, future orders limited to the current inventory of barrels.

No surprise here. STI reported selling like 5 or 7 pistols in .45 last year.

The announcement I expected, would be that effective immediately, all Wilson pistols would only be offered in 9mm. :)

[David C.]

I’ve only had one .38 Super, but I liked it a lot.

I’ve read on a couple other forums that Wilson only built 10 .38 Supers last year. Don’t know if that’s true or not.

I have a friend whose uncle was a Texas Ranger back in the and 30s and carried a Colt 1911 in 38 Super. He liked it a lot.

[Bergeron]

Makes sense, those have to be very limited quantities. I really hope that they keep 10mm as an option.

[Bigghoss]

I once mistakenly bought a box of .38 super ammo because it was mixed with the .38 special. Dang near used that as an excuse to buy a 1911 in .38 super.

[That Guy]

So what gun did you end up buying instead?

[Bigghoss]

So what gun did you end up buying instead?

How should I know? I can't keep track anymore.

[JAD]

I once mistakenly bought a box of .38 super ammo because it was mixed with the .38 special. Dang near used that as an excuse to buy a 1911 in .38 super.

Failures like that can haunt you for a long time. They’re still making Super guns; it’s not too late.

[Robinson]

I recently bought a couple of Colt Super 38s and a dozen Ed Brown magazines for them. Really nice shooters and they seem to work properly so far.

[HopetonBrown]

If you spent any time on 1911 Addicts you would think 36 Super is the next coming.

They're addicted to collecting 1911s, not shooting 1911s.

[StraitR]

They're addicted to collecting 1911s, not shooting 1911s.

And trading them off like stamps.

[HopetonBrown]

And trading them off like stamps.I was looking to buy a 1911 on Gunbroker, and found one I liked. As part of my due diligence I did an image search for the pictures he used, and found them on a 1911 message board. I looked at his completed auctions and saw that he'd buy a 1911, post pics of it, receive accolades from other forum members about his amazing collection, then sell it on Gunbroker to buy another, thus giving the illusion of a bigger collection than he actually had.

[45dotACP]

And trading them off like stamps.Upside is you can take advantage of the bespoke 1911 being fairly soft if you were so inclined....

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[falar]

I'm sort of in my own 38 Super phase right now but I have a feeling most people who shoot the Super are doing so in Colts and Dan Wessons.

I almost ordered a DW in .38 but for now I'm doing it in Colts and Tanfoglios (17+1, fuck yeah).

[LockedBreech]

I was looking to buy a 1911 on Gunbroker, and found one I liked. As part of my due diligence I did an image search for the pictures he used, and found them on a 1911 message board. I looked at his completed auctions and saw that he'd buy a 1911, post pics of it, receive accolades from other forum members about his amazing collection, then sell it on Gunbroker to buy another, thus giving the illusion of a bigger collection than he actually had.

That’s hilarious but hey, it probably made a basically unfired gun a few hundo cheaper, so everybody wins


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

I have a friend whose uncle was a Texas Ranger back in the and 30s and carried a Colt 1911 in 38 Super. He liked it a lot.

Prior to the advent of the .357 Magnum, only two factory calibers could reliably penetrate car bodies and reach the occupants inside from a handgun.

7.63mm Mauser (i.e., Broomhandle Mauser)
.38 Super

The .38-44 and .44 Special could only do so with hot handloads and .45 LC/.45 ACP could reasonably penetrate window glass, but had trouble with the thicker steel bodies that also tended to have wood reinforcements in them.

Anyways, Texas Rangers and other lawmen assigned to working organized crime/bank robbery tended to favor the .38 Super 1911, because of the penetration and fast(er) reloads. Though many clearly used .45 1911s, .44 Triple Lock Smiths, and .45 LC revolvers of various stripes. If one visits the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas - you will see a lot of Wolff & Klarr derived Smith revolvers and Colt 1911s. 1911s that date from prior to 1945 are about evenly split between .45 and .38 Super - post 1945, they are almost all .45.

___

A .38 Super CCO-pattern gun is on my want list. I love me some .38 Super - it's stupid and I shouldn't want it (hence why I call it .38 STUPer)...I still wants it.

Now, is Wilson discontinuing their .38 Super ammo? That's about the only load out there not from Double Tap, Underwood, or Buffalo Bore.

[Corse]

A .38 Super CCO-pattern gun is on my want list. I love me some .38 Super - it's stupid and I shouldn't want it (hence why I call it .38 STUPer)...I still wants it.

Now, is Wilson discontinuing their .38 Super ammo? That's about the only load out there not from Double Tap, Underwood, or Buffalo Bore.


I love 38 supers too. I have shot a 9mm 1911, but the super seems right for the gun. Plus, when you reload you can shoot on the cheap.

Sigs 38 super Ammo shoots well.

[That Guy]

Now, is Wilson discontinuing their .38 Super ammo? That's about the only load out there not from Double Tap, Underwood, or Buffalo Bore.

Magtech ammunition should be available to you?

https://magtechammunition.com/products/38-super-autop-130gr-fmj/

[HCM]

Now, is Wilson discontinuing their .38 Super ammo? That's about the only load out there not from Double Tap, Underwood, or Buffalo Bore.


Magtech ammunition should be available to you?

https://magtechammunition.com/products/38-super-autop-130gr-fmj/

I’m pretty sure Rob s referring to Defensive loads with modern bullets Most of the major US ammo makers make .38 Super ball ammo as do Armscor and Aguila etc Winchester and Federal still make traditional hollow point ammo (Silevertipe and AE) but taking advantage if the .38 super’s velocity requires bonded or equivalent bullets.

This Wilson load in particular is what I would likely carry if toting a .38 super today. https://shopwilsoncombat.com/38-Super-P-124-gr-Hornady-XTP-1335-FPS-5-Barrel-20_Box/productinfo/A38SU%2D124%2DXTP/

[That Guy]

Ah, I misunderstood then. My apologies.

[Bigghoss]

Prior to the advent of the .357 Magnum, only two factory calibers could reliably penetrate car bodies and reach the occupants inside from a handgun.

7.63mm Mauser (i.e., Broomhandle Mauser)
.38 Super

The .38-44 and .44 Special could only do so with hot handloads and .45 LC/.45 ACP could reasonably penetrate window glass, but had trouble with the thicker steel bodies that also tended to have wood reinforcements in them.

Anyways, Texas Rangers and other lawmen assigned to working organized crime/bank robbery tended to favor the .38 Super 1911, because of the penetration and fast(er) reloads. Though many clearly used .45 1911s, .44 Triple Lock Smiths, and .45 LC revolvers of various stripes. If one visits the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas - you will see a lot of Wolff & Klarr derived Smith revolvers and Colt 1911s. 1911s that date from prior to 1945 are about evenly split between .45 and .38 Super - post 1945, they are almost all .45.


I remember hearing this on some TV special about crime in the 20's. The gun hipster in me is attracted to the little-known place in history occupied by the .38 Super 1911. Rock Island Arsenal makes a .38 Super 1911 for under $450 so that just makes the temptation all the greater.

[Lester Polfus]

I would note that if one has a 9mm or .38 Super 1911, all that you need to swap to the other caliber is a barrel, and perhaps magazines.

You can also shoot 9x23 Winchester, if I'm not mistaken...

[theJanitor]

I was looking to buy a 1911 on Gunbroker, and found one I liked. As part of my due diligence I did an image search for the pictures he used, and found them on a 1911 message board. I looked at his completed auctions and saw that he'd buy a 1911, post pics of it, receive accolades from other forum members about his amazing collection, then sell it on Gunbroker to buy another, thus giving the illusion of a bigger collection than he actually had.

49391

[Corse]

I would note that if one has a 9mm or .38 Super 1911, all that you need to swap to the other caliber is a barrel, and perhaps magazines.

You can also shoot 9x23 Winchester, if I'm not mistaken...

Although it’s possible, I wouldn’t shoot 9x23 out of a 38 super barrel. The slightly different chamber dimensions can cause issues.

[JTQ]

Rock Island Arsenal makes a .38 Super 1911 for under $450 so that just makes the temptation all the greater.

For clarity, I'll assume those .38 Super 1911's for under $450 are available from Rock Island Armory and not the Rock Island Arsenal

[Zincwarrior]

Per email from Wilson Combat; all current orders will be completed, future orders limited to the current inventory of barrels.

Does this mean 40 S & W will no longer be permitted in IDPA? :rolleyes:

[farscott]

I would note that if one has a 9mm or .38 Super 1911, all that you need to swap to the other caliber is a barrel, and perhaps magazines.

You can also shoot 9x23 Winchester, if I'm not mistaken...

I would strongly advise against this as the 9x23 working pressure is well above that of .38 Super. While Winchester 9x23 brass is extremely strong, it does need the chamber support of a properly chambered 9x23 barrel. My 9x23 reloads use rifle primers, and I rarely push the round to its full potential. I have loaded 147-grain Hornday XTP at 1450 fps to make my own semi-automatic .357 Magnum load for use on deer; that load is darn near maximum.

[Bucky]

I’ve read on a couple other forums that Wilson only built 10 .38 Supers last year. Don’t know if that’s true or not.

The only difference in building a super versus building a 9mm is the barrel and magazine. The only difference between the making of the barrels is the chamber. Even if they only build 10 a year, that’s 10 sales you’re most likely going to get.

Seems silly to drop a SKU, or even an up charge option on something with virtually no overhead.

[Bucky]

I love 38 supers too. I have shot a 9mm 1911, but the super seems right for the gun. Plus, when you reload you can shoot on the cheap.

Sigs 38 super Ammo shoots well.

I have some Sig defense ammo in .38 super. It seems a bit anemic. (IE 9mm power level :p)

[Robinson]

I’m pretty sure Rob s referring to Defensive loads with modern bullets Most of the major US ammo makers make .38 Super ball ammo as do Armscor and Aguila etc Winchester and Federal still make traditional hollow point ammo (Silevertipe and AE) but taking advantage if the .38 super’s velocity requires bonded or equivalent bullets.

This Wilson load in particular is what I would likely carry if toting a .38 super today. https://shopwilsoncombat.com/38-Super-P-124-gr-Hornady-XTP-1335-FPS-5-Barrel-20_Box/productinfo/A38SU%2D124%2DXTP/

I think 38 Super Silvertips are actually out of production. At least I don't see them for sale any more.

Hopefully WC will continue to offer their version.

[Robinson]

I have some Sig defense ammo in .38 super. It seems a bit anemic. (IE 9mm power level :p)

Still, I hope they keep offering it. The 9mm has the advantage over 38 Super when it comes to availability of good defensive ammo and certainly the cost of practice ammo. But aside from that, the 38S is a better cartridge than 9mm for the 1911 pistol IMO. Having a readily available source of decent hollow point ammo that us up to at least 9mm performance level isn't really a bad thing, even if it's not a full-powered load.

[Stephanie B]

Rock Island Arsenal makes a .38 Super 1911 for under $450 so that just makes the temptation all the greater.

You know, I don't need this and I could almost come to hate you for it.

[Lester Polfus]

Although it’s possible, I wouldn’t shoot 9x23 out of a 38 super barrel. The slightly different chamber dimensions can cause issues.


I would strongly advise against this as the 9x23 working pressure is well above that of .38 Super. While Winchester 9x23 brass is extremely strong, it does need the chamber support of a properly chambered 9x23 barrel. My 9x23 reloads use rifle primers, and I rarely push the round to its full potential. I have loaded 147-grain Hornday XTP at 1450 fps to make my own semi-automatic .357 Magnum load for use on deer; that load is darn near maximum.


Sorry. That was unclear.

Yes. You'll need all three barrels if you want to shoot all three calibers.

I think you can use the same slide and magazine for 9x23 as you can use for .38 Super though? Yes?

[Borderland]

How should I know? I can't keep track anymore.

Spreadsheet.

I stopped buying rifles because they take up too much room. I can get 3 pistols into the space that a rifle requires.:D

I had a Colt ELCN super for awhile. That's the one that is polished stainless that will double as mirror to signal search aircraft. The cartridge itself seemed OK but it seemed to me the factory ammo wasn't very super and the gun itself was blinding in the sunlight. That may have been before the plus P ammo came on the scene. I didn't reload at the time so it went down the road. When I started reloading I chose 45 ACP for my single 1911 cartridge to keep things simple. I do shoot some 9mm now but not enough to justify reloading the cartridge. 38 Super seems to me to be more of a competition cartridge than anything else.

[Corse]

Sorry. That was unclear.

Yes. You'll need all three barrels if you want to shoot all three calibers.

I think you can use the same slide and magazine for 9x23 as you can use for .38 Super though? Yes?

I would not recommend 9x23 in 38 super either. But not because of case support. The 9x23 was made to run in a typical 1911 chamber, which is why the bass is so stout. The 9x23 case is tapered like a regular 9mm and the 38 super is straight walled. This makes the chamber to tight at the base and the brass can become stuck. You could ream a 38 super chamber to work if you wanted, but then it’s too loose for super.

The mags work interchangeably.

Not sure on the velocity of the sig ammo, I need to run some over a chronograph. The factory 9x23 124gr is around 1450 fps.

The ultimate combo in my mind would be a 9mm, 38 Super, 9x23 barrel combo, and if you tune the extractor for 38 super comp brass it should work for all three. Then it’s just a barrel and some spring changes.

[farscott]

Sorry. That was unclear.

Yes. You'll need all three barrels if you want to shoot all three calibers.

I think you can use the same slide and magazine for 9x23 as you can use for .38 Super though? Yes?

Yes, I use .38 Super magazines with my 9x23 pistol. Other than the markings on the floor plate, the magazines are the same. My 9x23 is also fit with a 9x19 barrel and recoil spring.

[mmc45414]

Until this event I knew 460 Rowland was a thing, but I didn't know what it was.
Now, of course, I think I want one...

[LockedBreech]

I would note that if one has a 9mm or .38 Super 1911, all that you need to swap to the other caliber is a barrel, and perhaps magazines.

You can also shoot 9x23 Winchester, if I'm not mistaken...

I did not know this, and I was already pretty close to getting a 9mm 1911. Sweet!

[RevolverRob]

FWIW - It looks like Cor-Bon is making a DPX in .38 Super again. I looked this morning they are listed as "back ordered ships 1-2 weeks". I know Cor-Bon had to completely redesign the DPX line when Barnes was bought by Remington, Remington stopped selling Cor-Bon bullets for that line. As near as I can tell, Remington was almost successful in sinking Cor-Bon as a company by doing that (prior to the buyout of Barnes DPX was Cor-Bon's best selling line ever).

Anyways, I have no impetus to email of call Cor-Bon to confirm, but it is listed on shopcorbon.com - If anyone out there with a .38 Super wants to - give them a call and see if you can get some. If I were going to pick a bullet for a high-velocity like the .38 Super a monolithic copper would be ideal, and the 125-grain bullet Cor-Bon has would be even more ideal, since there are a number of 125-130-grain FMJs.

The other monolithic load out there is the Buffalo-'Barnes' where Buffalo-Bore loads the 115-grain Barnes bullet. 115 is fairly light and I doubt you can find a practice load that shoots POA to the 115-grain defensive load, unless you roll your own. And I bet that that 115-grain bullet sheds its petals or rolls them back against the body of the bullet when it's moving at the advertised 1400-fps. That bullet is designed to work best at 1150-1250.

[Lester Polfus]

Every now and then I have the urge to spend the equivalent of a decent used car on:

1) 3 quality 1911 frames.
2) 3 quality 1911 slides.
3) Barrels in 9mm P, .38 Super, 9x23mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, 9x25mm Dillon, .45 ACP and .460 Rowland.
4) Assorted appropriate magazines.
5) A custom french fitted case for all of the above.

I read about similar thing when I was in high school and the school library had a copy of George Nonte's Pistolsmithing. Some of the above cartridges hadn't been invented yet, but you get the idea.

[Bigghoss]

For clarity, I'll assume those .38 Super 1911's for under $450 are available from Rock Island Armory and not the Rock Island Arsenal

oops. Yeah, that's what I meant. It's hard to keep track of all these companies trying to piggyback on the names of Government arsenals.



You know, I don't need this and I could almost come to hate you for it.

It's not the first time I've tried to goad you into a gun purchase and it won't be the last.

[Zincwarrior]

Strangely, I thought the largest user of 38 super now were USPSA shooters using them for Major power factor. I know there has been more discussion of shooters hot loading 9mm to make Major power factor. I wonder if that is a factor.

[RevolverRob]

Every now and then I have the urge to spend the equivalent of a decent used car on:

1) 3 quality 1911 frames.
2) 3 quality 1911 slides.
3) Barrels in 9mm P, .38 Super, 9x23mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, 9x25mm Dillon, .45 ACP and .460 Rowland.
4) Assorted appropriate magazines.
5) A custom french fitted case for all of the above.

Don't forget .22 TCM and of course all of that won't be complete without a .22LR upper of some type, either.


I read about similar thing when I was in high school and the school library had a copy of George Nonte's Pistolsmithing. Some of the above cartridges hadn't been invented yet, but you get the idea.

I guarantee that book has been purged from the library's holdings.

[wvincent]

Every now and then I have the urge to spend the equivalent of a decent used car on:

1) 3 quality 1911 frames.
2) 3 quality 1911 slides.
3) Barrels in 9mm P, .38 Super, 9x23mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, 9x25mm Dillon, .45 ACP and .460 Rowland.
4) Assorted appropriate magazines.
5) A custom french fitted case for all of the above.

I read about similar thing when I was in high school and the school library had a copy of George Nonte's Pistolsmithing. Some of the above cartridges hadn't been invented yet, but you get the idea.

Here's your starter kit, the rest is on you.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/857041090
49397

[Bigghoss]

Every now and then I have the urge to spend the equivalent of a decent used car on:

1) 3 quality 1911 frames.
2) 3 quality 1911 slides.
3) Barrels in 9mm P, .38 Super, 9x23mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, 9x25mm Dillon, .45 ACP and .460 Rowland.
4) Assorted appropriate magazines.
5) A custom french fitted case for all of the above.

I read about similar thing when I was in high school and the school library had a copy of George Nonte's Pistolsmithing. Some of the above cartridges hadn't been invented yet, but you get the idea.

All the cool kids are doing it. You want to be cool, don't ya?

[farscott]

Here's your starter kit, the rest is on you.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/857041090
49397

That is a very nice setup for Bullseye. If it goes for anywhere near the starting bid, someone got a great deal. I had one of the six-inch Kart uppers on a 1950s-era Colt Government Model frame that I used for the rimfire portion. It was stupidly easy to shoot well. I sold the complete pistol for $1300 last year as I had to go to red dots to be anywhere near competitive and was not drilling holes in that Kart/Colt pistol.

[Bucky]

Strangely, I thought the largest user of 38 super now were USPSA shooters using them for Major power factor. I know there has been more discussion of shooters hot loading 9mm to make Major power factor. I wonder if that is a factor.

The ONLY reason to use 9mm in a 2011 Open gun versus .38 super (comp), is the cost and availability of brass.

[Bucky]

Still, I hope they keep offering it. The 9mm has the advantage over 38 Super when it comes to availability of good defensive ammo and certainly the cost of practice ammo. But aside from that, the 38S is a better cartridge than 9mm for the 1911 pistol IMO. Having a readily available source of decent hollow point ammo that us up to at least 9mm performance level isn't really a bad thing, even if it's not a full-powered load.

I couldn’t agree more.

[ccmdfd]

I couldn’t agree more.

Me too. To me it's the optimal caliber, firearm combo.

cc

[falar]

Still, I hope they keep offering it. The 9mm has the advantage over 38 Super when it comes to availability of good defensive ammo and certainly the cost of practice ammo. But aside from that, the 38S is a better cartridge than 9mm for the 1911 pistol IMO. Having a readily available source of decent hollow point ammo that us up to at least 9mm performance level isn't really a bad thing, even if it's not a full-powered load.

Couldn't agree more. Which is why I have .38 Super 1911s and instead of 9mm even though I own many a 9mm.

I think the case length just works better than the short, tapered 9mm case. You see so many "my 9mm 1911 won't function" threads/posts.

Factory .38 Super is generally only loaded to 9mm +p levels though unfortunately.

I did find a GECO 124gr load at 1411fps that I like.

[wvincent]

Couldn't agree more. Which is why I have .38 Super 1911s and instead of 9mm even though I own many a 9mm.

I think the case length just works better than the short, tapered 9mm case. You see so many "my 9mm 1911 won't function" threads/posts.

Factory .38 Super is generally only loaded to 9mm +p levels though unfortunately.

I did find a GECO 124gr load at 1411fps that I like.

Perhaps the lack of posts regarding .38 super not functioning in 1911's is proportionate to the lower numbers of ownership?
9mm in 1911's seems to pretty much be a non issue at this point. STI, Wilson, MARS, etc. have this shit figured out.

On the other hand, I would love to have a .38 Super 1911, but with modern ammunition, 9mm and 38 Super are just too close to justify.
Competition aside, there is really no reason to choose .38 Super over 9mm.

[falar]

If you don't consider proper a function a reason, sure.

[wvincent]

Yep, that's why all the major manufacture's are churning out all those 1911/2011's in .38 Super.
Oh, wait, they aren't.
And ammo isn't the reason either. If there was a major resurgence of .38 Super, the ammo manufacture's would swap dies in a heartbeat.
But, it's not going to happen. Ever.
9mm functions just fine. I mean, it is 2020, pretty sure they have it sussed out by now.

[Robinson]

Yep, that's why all the major manufacture's are churning out all those 1911/2011's in .38 Super.
Oh, wait, they aren't.
And ammo isn't the reason either. If there was a major resurgence of .38 Super, the ammo manufacture's would swap dies in a heartbeat.
But, it's not going to happen. Ever.
9mm functions just fine. I mean, it is 2020, pretty sure they have it sussed out by now.

All I can base my opinion on is personal experience, and I'm not going to speak for anyone else. I've had pretty good luck with Colt 9mm 1911s in the past several years, but I still think that the 9mm 1911 is more likely to be problematic than either the 45 or the 38 Super. My 38 Super guns are really solid and they shoot better groups than any 9mm 1911 I've owned.

I actually agree with most of the advantages of 9mm over 38 Super. But overall I still think 38S works better in a 1911 than 9mm. That doesn't mean folks don't have great shooting 9mm 1911s and I wouldn't try to put anyone off them. But 38 Super is a really nice shooting cartridge.

All said and done, I've done a LOT of experimentation with 9mm 1911s because it's something that I wanted to work for me. But after a bunch of tries, I've gone back to 45 and added the 38 Super for my own personal use. It isn't 9mm 1911s that are keeping 38 Super from being more popular, it's 9mm in every thing else that is making 9mm 1911s more popular.

[HCM]

If you don't consider proper a function a reason, sure.

It’s an engineering issue. Just like any other deviation from a 5” ..45 acp with 7 round magazines.

38 super is the proper length for optimal function in the original 1911 design.

Getting optimal function out of a shorter case like 9mm is simply an engineering issue. Some places have cracked the code some haven’t. Ammo and mags matter too.

There really is no “a 1911” in current production there are only 1911 pattern guns.

[Rock185]

I'd guess demand for .460 would be minimal, and .40 has sure fallen from favor. Surprised to hear they're dropping the 38 Super though. Although major US manufacturer 38S SD/carry ammo is limited, and what is available has not fully utilized the capability of the cartridge, that situation seems to be improving thanks to some of the smaller, "Boutique", ammo manufacturers. And with handloading, the 38S can really shine. Should one desire it, 124/125 grain bullets at 1450 FPS and 147 grain bullets at 1250 FPS is easily accomplished with some of the excellent powders available now days.

My Wilsons were chambered in the "proper" 45 ACP, but I have owned and reloaded for a number of Colt and Kimber Supers, and one STI. Some converted to utilize 9MM also. With modern integrally ramped barrels, I've found reliability of my 9MM and 38S 1911 type pistols to be equal to pistols chambered in the "proper" .45 ACP cartridge;)

[Zincwarrior]

Couldn't agree more. Which is why I have .38 Super 1911s and instead of 9mm even though I own many a 9mm.

I think the case length just works better than the short, tapered 9mm case. You see so many "my 9mm 1911 won't function" threads/posts.

Factory .38 Super is generally only loaded to 9mm +p levels though unfortunately.

I did find a GECO 124gr load at 1411fps that I like.
Colt made the 38 super for 1911s so it should be somewhat better.

[HCM]

Colt made the 38 super for 1911s so it should be somewhat better.

Uh... not really. Colt made the .38 acp for the M1900 pistol. The dimensions of the 38 super and 38 acp are identical. 38 super is just the +p loading of .38 acp.

Colt loaded the round hotter fir the 1911 because it was stronger than the 1900, but they did not make the dimensions for 1911s. That is, at best, a happy accident.

[Borderland]

Colt made the 38 super for 1911s so it should be somewhat better.

Better for civilian and law enforcement use. The super was introduced in 1929 as an improved 38 ACP. As the 38 Super didn't exist in 1911 when the military adopted the design it's apples and oranges. Colt wasn't competing for a military contract with the Super so it's a good bet that it was developed for civilian and law enforcement use.

I've always liked the cartridge but not enough to reload for it. Case dimensions and barrel bore have been all over the place since it was introduced. I think it's now a rimless cartridge but that wasn't always the case.

[ccmdfd]

49440

Gotta love those original ads!

cc

[mmc45414]

I think it's now a rimless cartridge but that wasn't always the case.
It has always been my understanding that the case has never changed, but the modern barrels do not use the rim for headspace.

I have long term plans to try and fit a 38 Super barrel into one of my 9mm 1911s, but mainly because I am a gun nerd that likes to tinker :cool:

[Borderland]

It has always been my understanding that the case has never changed, but the modern barrels do not use the rim for headspace.

I have long term plans to try and fit a 38 Super barrel into one of my 9mm 1911s, but mainly because I am a gun nerd that likes to tinker :cool:

I've read that the prewar chambers were cut for a semi-rimless case and the switch to true rimless came after WW2, but I don't have any first hand knowledge about that.

[mmc45414]

I've read that the prewar chambers were cut for a semi-rimless case and the switch to true rimless came after WW2, but I don't have any first hand knowledge about that.
I think the case never changed and I think many people credit Bill Wilson as being the dood that quit head spacing on it, but I am just working from foggy memory.
49444

[RevolverRob]

Uh... not really. Colt made the .38 acp for the M1900 pistol. The dimensions of the 38 super and 38 acp are identical. 38 super is just the +p loading of .38 acp.

Colt loaded the round hotter fir the 1911 because it was stronger than the 1900, but they did not make the dimensions for 1911s. That is, at best, a happy accident.

It's true that the .38 Super was not created specifically to fit in a 1911.

But it isn't an accident that they fit so well together. When Colt drew up the .45 ACP cartridge they simply reused the length dimensions of the .38 ACP, but made the diameter bigger - that's why the M1905 is basically a M1902 on steroids. It's also why the .38 Super works well in 1911s, because .38 Super and .45 Auto are based on the same length specifications from the get-go. It's not really an accident so much as a reflection of the history of the development of each cartridge and how they are intertwined.

[Robinson]

I've read that the prewar chambers were cut for a semi-rimless case and the switch to true rimless came after WW2, but I don't have any first hand knowledge about that.

Colt's first pistol to head space on the chamber mouth was produced in 1986. By 1989-1990 all Colts chambered for 38 Super head space on the chamber mouth.

[Borderland]

Colt's first pistol to head space on the chamber mouth was produced in 1986. By 1989-1990 all Colts chambered for 38 Super head space on the chamber mouth.

Exactly. Thus eliminating the need for a semi-rimless cartridge. Originally the extractor held the case in the chamber with the semi-rimmed cartridge. That was an unfortunate disadvantage of the 38 Super. Why it ever went into production like that has always been a mystery to me.

[Corse]

Exactly. Thus eliminating the need for a semi-rimless cartridge. Originally the extractor held the case in the chamber with the semi-rimmed cartridge. That was an unfortunate disadvantage of the 38 Super. Why it ever went into production like that has always been a mystery to me.

That’s where the 38 super comp and TJ come in. Rimless versions of the 38 super. Super comp brass works fine in my supers, supposedly an advantage with feeding from double stack mags.

[HCM]

I think the case never changed and I think many people credit Bill Wilson as being the dood that quit head spacing on it, but I am just working from foggy memory.
49444

That was Irv Stone of bar sto barrels.

[Bucky]

Exactly. Thus eliminating the need for a semi-rimless cartridge. Originally the extractor held the case in the chamber with the semi-rimmed cartridge.

I’m not sure this is entirely accurate. From what I recall, a recess in the barrel hood caught the semi rim...?

[mmc45414]

That was an unfortunate disadvantage of the 38 Super. Why it ever went into production like that has always been a mystery to me.
I just wonder if before IPSC people other than bullseye shooters even expected pistols to do what we expect them to do. 38 Super was probably embraced on the fact that it would go through a thick ass car door and decades later somebody noticed it wasn't so easy to hit the car door. :cool:

[Corse]

I’m not sure this is entirely accurate. From what I recall, a recess in the barrel hood caught the semi rim...?

I believe this is correct.

[farscott]

I just wonder if before IPSC people other than bullseye shooters even expected pistols to do what we expect them to do. 38 Super was probably embraced on the fact that it would go through a thick ass car door and decades later somebody noticed it wasn't so easy to hit the car door. :cool:

Rather than fix the headspace issue with .38 Super, Colt offered the .38 Special Mid-Range wadcutter in the 1911 when Bullseye shooters transitioned from revolvers. If Colt had fixed the issue at that time rather than trying to shoehorn a rimmed revolver cartridge into the 1911, I have a feeling .38 Super would have been a lot more popular than it is. Colt survives in spite of itself.

[Borderland]

I learned something here, as always. Interesting discussion. :D

[Robinson]

Rather than fix the headspace issue with .38 Super, Colt offered the .38 Special Mid-Range wadcutter in the 1911 when Bullseye shooters transitioned from revolvers. If Colt had fixed the issue at that time rather than trying to shoehorn a rimmed revolver cartridge into the 1911, I have a feeling .38 Super would have been a lot more popular than it is. Colt survives in spite of itself.

Hey, it only took them... well, several decades to fix the problem. Them Colt Super 38s sure shoot good nowadays though.

[falar]

I’m not sure this is entirely accurate. From what I recall, a recess in the barrel hood caught the semi rim...?

It did, which is why there were accuracy issues back in the day as already posted in this thread.


Much, much later barrels were changed to index off the case mouth, as already said.

The recess is still there in the barrel hood on current production Colt .38 Supers though. It is just there to clear the rim though and even though it looks close the mouth bottoms out first.

[TDA]

oops. Yeah, that's what I meant. It's hard to keep track of all these companies trying to piggyback on the names of Government arsenals.




It's not the first time I've tried to goad you into a gun purchase and it won't be the last.

I'm sure this will shock, but I've bought one. In nickel.

it was the rattle when you shake it kind of 1911, and the OEM magazine was absolute shit, like straight to the recycle bin after a good stomping. I want to say it sent all 9 rounds, the follower, and the spring out the ejection port the first time I seated it firmly. It ran fine with Wilson mags. The sights were kind of terrible as well, but it was fun.