The Importance of Recoil Control to Shooting Performance

[Doc_Glock]

I have been shooting a .22 (G44) quite a bit lately. I am pretty astonished at how much better I shoot this gun compared to my carry G19. When comparing hit factor on several drills, my HF with the G44 is around 50% better than my best with a G19. That is nothing to sneeze at.

I think the improvement comes from several factors:
1. Shot to shot recovery is much faster. Sight tracking is much easier.
2. Less beating from the recoil/blast leads to less recoil anticipation/flinch, plus I can focus carefully on trigger fundamentals without flaws being hidden in the recoil cycle.
3. I can shoot a lot more in any one session without getting overly fatigued which leads to more learning.

I have generally poo-pooed the importance of the gun in a shooter's performance. For most off the shelf service pistols, my performance is within a few percentage points if it is even measurable and not just random "noise." The difference in my performance with a rimfire is measurable and undeniable, however.

This has me thinking of the usefulness of things like the "Roland Special" or the STI gun with the comp. I had previously thought these things were gimmicks, but now I am not so sure. If I had a 9mm that recoiled like a rimfire, would not my shooting performance improve significantly? I guess there is a reason for open guns run in a different category in competition.

[Gio]

I have been shooting a .22 (G44) quite a bit lately. I am pretty astonished at how much better I shoot this gun compared to my carry G19. When comparing hit factor on several drills, my HF with the G44 is around 50% better than my best with a G19. That is nothing to sneeze at.

I think the improvement comes from several factors:
1. Shot to shot recovery is much faster. Sight tracking is much easier.
2. Less beating from the recoil/blast leads to less recoil anticipation/flinch, plus I can focus carefully on trigger fundamentals without flaws being hidden in the recoil cycle.
3. I can shoot a lot more in any one session without getting overly fatigued which leads to more learning.

I have generally poo-pooed the importance of the gun in a shooter's performance. For most off the shelf service pistols, my performance is within a few percentage points if it is even measurable and not just random "noise." The difference in my performance with a rimfire is measurable and undeniable, however.

This has me thinking of the usefulness of things like the "Roland Special" or the STI gun with the comp. I had previously thought these things were gimmicks, but now I am not so sure. If I had a 9mm that recoiled like a rimfire, would not my shooting performance improve significantly? I guess there is a reason for open guns run in a different category in competition.

Recoil control makes a huge difference, and it is why you see such outstanding recoil control and focus on improving recoil control from top shooters. I would argue that you'll get more bang for your buck adding weight to a gun than you will with a roland special style comp. I notice a much bigger difference adding a weaponlight, brass grip insert, and tungsten guide rod (for competition), than I ever did adding a comp. I don't think the typical 9mm factory ammo, 9mm minor reloads, or 9mm service ammo has enough gas to effectively run a comp like a 9mm major or .38 special open gun.

[RJ]

+1 on brass plug and tungsten guide rod (on my G19). I still make Production weight (barely) so it's legal.

They absolutely afford a noticeable decrease in my shot to shot sight picture acquisition time (I still need to remember to press the damn trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights though) in matches.

[YVK]

This has me thinking of the usefulness of things like the "Roland Special" or the STI gun with the comp.

I've looked at all reports on these and I still don't know what those comps do, if anything, in 9 mm guns.

[GJM]

With the caveat that my 44 is stock and my CO Glock pistols are not stock, my experience is that I shoot my 9mm Glock pistols better than my Glock 44. To have a full discussion on this topic, it would be interesting to hear what others experience in terms of results between the G44 and their 9mm Glock pistols.

[joshs]

I've looked at all reports on these and I still don't know what those comps do, if anything, in 9 mm guns.

I think they do make a noticeable improvement with certain ammo, but that's seriously outweighed by the negatives (the gun can be more ammo sensitive, need resprung, and the added complexity for disassembly).

I also agree with Gio that weight makes a much more noticeable improvement with most 9mm and adding weight to the frame should, if anything, help reliability.

[willie]

Shooting a Colt Light Weight Commander side by side with the all steel version will convince anyone that felt recoil is a significant factor in achieving marksmanship goals. In the heyday of bullseye shooting this fact was known even to those shooting the .22 rimfire in competition. Muzzle devices to lessen felt recoil were available. The shooter with a .357 Mag revolver will notice that shooting smaller groups is easier with standard .38 Spl ammo.

[YVK]

I have not been able to shoot a comped gun against a non-comped gun, so I am speaking out of my ass here. The questions that I've hoped to answer, but haven't gotten to so far (applies to 9 mm only)

- It seems like they need hot 9 mm to see the advantage. 147 gr standard pressure HST, or even 135+P HST feel pretty mild out of my G19 or even G48, so why not shoot that vs some +p+ stuff just so the comp gets to play.

- How much the extra weight bolted down to the end of the barrel contributes to the effect, vs the expansion chamber effect.

- I saw those angular deviation Ransom rest results, that many degrees up with comped vs non-comped etc. Where they stopped with that was figuring out how much effort is required to bring the muzzle flip of a non-comped to the one of a comped gun.


All of my G19/19x have brass plugs these days.

[Doc_Glock]

With the caveat that my 44 is stock and my CO Glock pistols are not stock, my experience is that I shoot my 9mm Glock pistols better than my Glock 44. To have a full discussion on this topic, it would be interesting to hear what others experience in terms of results between the G44 and their 9mm Glock pistols.

How do you shoot your G44 compared to an iron sight G19?

[GJM]

How do you shoot your G44 compared to an iron sight G19?

I shoot an iron sighted 17 significantly better than the 44, but haven't shot an iron sighted 19 enough lately to say.

[Doc_Glock]

I shoot an iron sighted 17 significantly better than the 44, but haven't shot an iron sighted 19 enough lately to say.

I am simultaneously impressed and discouraged. I am so much better with the small caliber it’s ridiculous. That tells me you are really good at controlling recoil and I have a long way to go.

[Redhat]

Deleted--wrong quote

[Redhat]

I am simultaneously impressed and discouraged. I am so much better with the small caliber it’s ridiculous. That tells me you are really good at controlling recoil and I have a long way to go.

Can you be specific about what you mean when you say "controlling recoil" ?

[Doc_Glock]

With the caveat that my 44 is stock and my CO Glock pistols are not stock, my experience is that I shoot my 9mm Glock pistols better than my Glock 44. To have a full discussion on this topic, it would be interesting to hear what others experience in terms of results between the G44 and their 9mm Glock pistols.


I would like to continue the discussion. I guess I can't comprehend how you can possibly shoot a service 9mm handgun better than a rimfire of the same size when the timer is on? Can you elaborate? Like I said before my hit factor on static drills is 50% higher with the rimfire. You must return the sights to target with the 9mm just as fast or faster than with a .22. In other words, your splits are unaffected by caliber.

[Doc_Glock]

Can you be specific about what you mean when you say "controlling recoil" ?

I mean returning the gun to where it started when the first shot went off and firing again. Splits in other words. See my reply to GJM above.

[Redhat]

I mean returning the gun to where it started when the first shot went off and firing again. Splits in other words. See my reply to GJM above.

I'm figuring out the same thing, just not with a .22 so interested in the comments.

If you could break it down into segments, how would you describe what you actually see during and immediately after the shot?

[GJM]

I would like to continue the discussion. I guess I can't comprehend how you can possibly shoot a service 9mm handgun better than a rimfire of the same size when the timer is on? Can you elaborate? Like I said before my hit factor on static drills is 50% higher with the rimfire. You must return the sights to target with the 9mm just as fast or faster than with a .22. In other words, your splits are unaffected by caliber.

Go shoot some drills with both and report your splits.

My best splits with a Glock 9 are in the .15/.16 range, and sub .20 is common, to an A at 7. I can’t do that with the 44.

[TCFD273]

Go shoot some drills with both and report your splits.

My best splits with a Glock 9 are in the .15/.16 range, and sub .20 is common, to an A at 7. I can’t do that with the 44.

While I don’t have a G44, I think there is just a limit to how fast you can pull a trigger. I ran 3 bill drills back to back as a demo last week. All sub 2, most splits .17-.18, all A zone.

I simply can’t pull a handgun trigger faster consistently. Doesn’t matter the platform.




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[GJM]

I agree and disagree. In the example of the Glock 17 to 44, I believe I am bumping against how fast I can manipulate the Glock trigger. Last week though, I was shooting .13 splits with my MPX. For whatever reason, I need to work to shoot a Glock trigger fast, and each successive shot takes effort. With a 2011 it feels like it just splits until I stop it.

[Clusterfrack]

My splits are more dependent on my grip than on the gun, but the gun does matter. If I'm too tense in my strong hand, or my wrist tension isn't high enough, I'll clock ~0.18 to 0.20s with a Shadow2 shooting doubles or a Bill. If I'm relaxed, and my wrists are "locked", splits go down to 0.16 to 0.18s.

Interestingly, I can shoot slightly faster doubles with a P-07 than with a Shadow2, but of course the groups are usually larger.

I haven't shot a .22 in maybe a year, but it's really easy to shoot 0.15s with a Ruger Mark3 and keep the hits tight.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why are we talking about fast splits? To me recoil control means that the gun returns reasonably quickly (~0.20) but more importantly it returns to the same spot in a highly repeatable way. People with the best recoil control can do this even when in a really jacked up shooting position. That's easy to do with a .22 or while dry firing. Not so easy with full caliber.

[TCFD273]

I agree and disagree. In the example of the Glock 17 to 44, I believe I am bumping against how fast I can manipulate the Glock trigger. Last week though, I was shooting .13 splits with my MPX. For whatever reason, I need to work to shoot a Glock trigger fast, and each successive shot takes effort. With a 2011 it feels like it just splits until I stop it.

I can split a AR faster than a handgun as well. But 1911/2011 vs Glock I don’t really see a difference on static drills. The 1911 feels “easier”, but the timer doesn’t show a difference. I wish it did, give me a reason to go buy an STI Staccato Duo. Haha

[Clusterfrack]

...give me a reason to go buy an STI Staccato Duo. Haha

Sorry for the distraction, but I totally don't get why this gun is a big deal. Is it a John Wick thing?

[45dotACP]

To me, recoil control has more to do with how accurate my shots are at speed. It's also heavily dependent on the consistency of my grip.

A rimfire pistol will let you get away with a lot as far as grip consistency goes. Especially if you're shooting it quickly. I see it to a degree with my 1911s as well. Before doing a lot of work on grip, I could shoot the same speed with greater accuracy with my 9mm 5" guns than with my 5" .45 caliber pistols.

But with a more consistent, repeatable grip I find that difference is less now than it was before.

Do a lot of Frank Garcia's Dots with your 9mm and you'll see what I'm talking about. That drill (aside from being a soul crushing junk punch) is almost completely a grip consistency tool.



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[Clusterfrack]

Do a lot of Frank Garcia's Dots with your 9mm and you'll see what I'm talking about. That drill (aside from being a soul crushing junk punch) is almost completely a grip consistency tool.


Yes. Completely agree. I do the Dots at 7yds with a Shadow2, and at 5yds with a P-07.

[JHC]

I agree and disagree. In the example of the Glock 17 to 44, I believe I am bumping against how fast I can manipulate the Glock trigger. Last week though, I was shooting .13 splits with my MPX. For whatever reason, I need to work to shoot a Glock trigger fast, and each successive shot takes effort. With a 2011 it feels like it just splits until I stop it.


OK this again reminds me of when after like 6 mos and 10K rounds of Glock shooting you could immediately still split better with an M&P and were like WTF? And in the 800 rounds I owned a 320 I found it easier to shoot faster splits with equal hits than my G's. I don't consider these differences important to me for my shooting but I think the phenomena is super interesting.

[JHC]

To me, recoil control has more to do with how accurate my shots are at speed. It's also heavily dependent on the consistency of my grip.

A rimfire pistol will let you get away with a lot as far as grip consistency goes. Especially if you're shooting it quickly. I see it to a degree with my 1911s as well. Before doing a lot of work on grip, I could shoot the same speed with greater accuracy with my 9mm 5" guns than with my 5" .45 caliber pistols.

But with a more consistent, repeatable grip I find that difference is less now than it was before.

Do a lot of Frank Garcia's Dots with your 9mm and you'll see what I'm talking about. That drill (aside from being a soul crushing junk punch) is almost completely a grip consistency tool.



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+1 I am a high risk patient for getting lazy on the grip with lighter recoiling calibers. That's a thing to be watchful for. I've seen it manifest a few times when breaking out my G22 and being very focused on winching down that grip and seeing improved hits without a measurable speed penalty. Then I have to back and apply that learning to the 9's.

[spinmove_]

OK this again reminds me of when after like 6 mos and 10K rounds of Glock shooting you could immediately still split better with an M&P and were like WTF? And in the 800 rounds I owned a 320 I found it easier to shoot faster splits with equal hits than my G's. I don't consider these differences important to me for my shooting but I think the phenomena is super interesting.

I think it’s the human/platform interface. Glocks are less than Perfection in that realm.

[Clusterfrack]

This thread is making me want to break out the Bear Cannon (G20)...

[Poconnor]

I was taught to stop trying to “control” recoil and learn to “manage” the recoil. Different guns recoil differently. Work on your grip and stance until the gun recoils in a straight arc up and then returns straight down to the same place. See the front sight on the target and work the trigger. Track the front sight during recoil and when the sights return back on target fire if desired. Eventually you will see the brass coming out of the gun. It takes a lot of practice, a lot of rounds- a good coach and instructor help. The bad part isn’t is a perishable skill. I still think a double action revolver really helps with learning to work the trigger on any gun. When I turned 21 I bought a S&W model 17 and case of .22 LR (5000) rds. It was a good investment

[Poconnor]

I usually demonstrate the gun recoiling straight up by having people place both of their hands together palm to palm in front of their chest. Extend their arms out straight while keeping their palms together. Press their hands together (isometric) then move their arms up and down with the palm together. If they are using equal pressure their hands go straight up and down

[Doc_Glock]

Go shoot some drills with both and report your splits.

My best splits with a Glock 9 are in the .15/.16 range, and sub .20 is common, to an A at 7. I can’t do that with the 44.

G44 splits 0.20-0.21, G19 0.24-0.25 That is about as fast as I can go.

[TCFD273]

Sorry for the distraction, but I totally don't get why this gun is a big deal. Is it a John Wick thing?

No worries. I’m a closet 1911/2011 guy. I don’t shoot or carry them very often anymore, but still love them.


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[Doc_Glock]

Extreme example:

Imagine a laser pistol that put holes in a target but did not recoil at all. Is that harder or easier to shoot than a 9mm pistol?

I don't think there is an argument that less recoil makes for better shooting. Equipment that recoils less is simply always going to be easier to shoot well, GJM's experience excepted.

It also emphasizes how important learning to control the cycling of the gun to return the sights to zero as repeatably and quickly as possible is. I expect the software solutions to this are more impactful than the various hardware solutions, but I don't think hardware solutions are necessarily useless.

[Doc_Glock]

Sorry for the distraction, but I totally don't get why this gun is a big deal. Is it a John Wick thing?

I have been told the thing recoils like a .22, but is a service caliber gun.

[Clusterfrack]

I have been told the thing recoils like a .22, but is a service caliber gun.

Heavy metal 9mm's can be soft shooting, especially with minor PF loads.

[GJM]

G44 splits 0.20-0.21, G19 0.24-0.25 That is about as fast as I can go.

That would suggest that the limitation for you, in terms of shooting faster, is recoil control, not trigger control. Probably good to figure out what you can do to improve your recoil control.

Between the full size grip, weight and trigger, my 17 is a more shootable gun than my 44, even considering the difference in caliber. There might be some things you can do to your 9mm Glock to make it more shootable.

[Doc_Glock]

That would suggest that the limitation for you, in terms of shooting faster, is recoil control, not trigger control.

Your experience suggests the opposite for you: you seem to be limited more by the trigger weight/travel of the 44 than by recoil control. In fact at this point you seem to be so recoil agnostic that your splits are more affected by trigger mechanism/weight/travel than the cycling of the gun. I find that interesting and inspiring.

[Alpha Sierra]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why are we talking about fast splits? To me recoil control means that the gun returns reasonably quickly (~0.20) but more importantly it returns to the same spot in a highly repeatable way.

+1
I'll take .21 - .23 splits with a tight cluster at 10 yards over .17 - .18 splits with a 50% Cs and Ds at the same distance any day and twice on Sunday

But .17 splits make you look cool

[CCT125US]

Recently switched my USP9C v7 LEM to v1 Da/Sa. While comparing this to my P30v1, it returns more consistently, and with less effort. I am shooting with a higher degree of what I'll call sustained accuracy. It requires less input, and allows me to shoot better, longer.

[MGW]

+1 I am a high risk patient for getting lazy on the grip with lighter recoiling calibers. That's a thing to be watchful for. I've seen it manifest a few times when breaking out my G22 and being very focused on winching down that grip and seeing improved hits without a measurable speed penalty. Then I have to back and apply that learning to the 9's.


I think I might have this tendency too. If I shoot a 1911 for awhile I find that I can pick up a 17 and shoot it really well. It doesn’t take long though and I start throwing shots with the Glock. I’ve always assumed it had more to do with trigger control than anything else. But maybe it’s the grip strength difference needed to control 45 compared to 9mm. I haven’t owned a 21 in a long time but it would be interesting to see if the same thing happened after shooting one of those for a couple months and then switching to a 17.

[MGW]

I don't think there is an argument that less recoil makes for better shooting. Equipment that recoils less is simply always going to be easier to shoot well, GJM's experience excepted.

It also emphasizes how important learning to control the cycling of the gun to return the sights to zero as repeatably and quickly as possible is. I expect the software solutions to this are more impactful than the various hardware solutions, but I don't think hardware solutions are necessarily useless.

These discussions are always difficult because it’s hard to quantify what we’re actually measuring when talking about shooting performance. It’s also hard to compare one pistol to another over a short period of time. For example, my best Bill Drills that I’ve recorded are with a P09 and a 229. My two best failure to stop drills are with a 45 caliber 1911 but I’ve come really close to the same performance with a 43x.

There’s a lot of stuff going on here. Each of the above handguns handle and recoil differently. Draw times factor in maybe. They were probably similar though. And anyone can get lucky once or twice with a given pistol and hook up a good run on a given drill. Sticking with one gun over a long period of time and taking snap shots of performance over time is really the only way to know what you’re capable of with a given pistol. I’m guilty of doing the exact opposite of this.

There’s a lot that goes into performance with a pistol. Trigger control is obvious. Grip is pretty obvious. Recoil control isn’t so obvious. My theory is that recoil control has a lot to do with getting use to the timing and recoil characteristics of a gun. Maybe as skill improves this is less important. I don’t know.

Sorry to ramble a little bit. It’s been a long couple of weeks and I need to go to bed.

[JHC]

I think I might have this tendency too. If I shoot a 1911 for awhile I find that I can pick up a 17 and shoot it really well. It doesn’t take long though and I start throwing shots with the Glock. I’ve always assumed it had more to do with trigger control than anything else. But maybe it’s the grip strength difference needed to control 45 compared to 9mm. I haven’t owned a 21 in a long time but it would be interesting to see if the same thing happened after shooting one of those for a couple months and then switching to a 17.

The struggle is real. Kevin B caught me at it first and pointed out the cause of the phenomena when I outshot my 17 with the 22 on a drill. I was like dohp!

[Duke]

Tried my best avoid this thread.. but I can't


No one is asking if you should be able to control recoil to shoot well......No one is asking who can shoot their identical glock better that the other guy can shoot his identical glock.



What is being asked : Could the same proficient shooter, at the same skill level, be expected to perform better (against himself) with a lighter recoiling gun.

To that the answer is yes.

Also... to those with no experience with well a set up gun, please refrain form repeating the nonsense of "comps don't do much in 9mm"... I can assure you in the right set up, they absolutely do more than "something"

If the above statement is based off a GM level shooter running a 9 minor gun vs an open gun in major or .38 super than sure, thats partially true.. you'll need more gas to do the work.

Consider that statement is directed at guns that are very overtly centered toward high level competitors - where the circumstances will be ideal for proper grip and recoil mitigation and the only consequence of failure is a Match lost. Adam from Atlas gunworks will tell you a 9 minor comped gun isn't helping you and he's right..... in the context of a match against major guns.

I want a comped street gun so the next crack head I have to trigger or tussle with is at an even greater disadvantage because my gun is doing some work that I didn’t have time for with a less than perfect grip or draw

The recoil system as a whole will be as much a limiting factor as the comp. A tilting barrel browning system with stock springs will not have the same amount of reduced felt recoil/muzzle rise a different system - Like the 2011. The DVC-P in this case runs an 8lb recoil spring.

See below the video of my island comped 2011 STI vs my 4" non comped STI.

I can get .13 A zone splits at 10M from the comped gun... its just magic. The non comped gun is super accurate but the 2 simply can't be compared in their ease of use.


https://youtu.be/sLY1CpBmYpo>


https://youtu.be/aW5PuvXV9N4

Here's a 10 meter match strike with the 4" so again accuracy isn't an issue but the comped gun is so much easier to shoot well.


https://youtu.be/CslVG1mK8v0

[TCFD273]

Tried my best avoid this thread.. but I can't


No one is asking if you should be able to control recoil to shoot well......No one is asking who can shoot their identical glock better that the other guy can shoot his identical glock.



What is being asked : Could the same proficient shooter, at the same skill level, be expected to perform better (against himself) with a lighter recoiling gun.

To that the answer is yes.

Also... to those with no experience with well a set up gun, please refrain form repeating the nonsense of "comps don't do much in 9mm"... I can assure you in the right set up, they absolutely do more than "something"

If the above statement is based off a GM level shooter running a 9 minor gun vs an open gun in major or .38 super than sure, thats partially true.. you'll need more gas to do the work.

Consider that statement is directed at guns that are very overtly centered toward high level competitors - where the circumstances will be ideal for proper grip and recoil mitigation and the only consequence of failure is a Match lost. Adam from Atlas gunworks will tell you a 9 minor comped gun isn't helping you and he's right..... in the context of a match against major guns.

I want a comped street gun so the next crack head I have to trigger or tussle with is at an even greater disadvantage because my gun is doing some work that I didn’t have time for with a less than perfect grip or draw

The recoil system as a whole will be as much a limiting factor as the comp. A tilting barrel browning system with stock springs will not have the same amount of reduced felt recoil/muzzle rise a different system - Like the 2011. The DVC-P in this case runs an 8lb recoil spring.

See below the video of my island comped 2011 STI vs my 4" non comped STI.

I can get .13 A zone splits at 10M from the comped gun... its just magic. The non comped gun is super accurate but the 2 simply can't be compared in their ease of use.


https://youtu.be/sLY1CpBmYpo>


https://youtu.be/aW5PuvXV9N4

Here's a 10 meter match strike with the 4" so again accuracy isn't an issue but the comped gun is so much easier to shoot well.


https://youtu.be/CslVG1mK8v0

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200305/06868304548afc3e12370db695abafbc.jpg


Felt like this post from Chuck was fitting. He was replying to a comment someone made in regards to the handgun he was using.



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[Duke]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200305/06868304548afc3e12370db695abafbc.jpg


Felt like this post from Chuck was fitting. He was replying to a comment someone made in regards to the handgun he was using.



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Completely agree.

[GJM]

Question 1: for two otherwise identical and equally reliable pistols, will the one that recoils less be easier to shoot? Answer, yes.

Question 2: does it matter? Answer, it depends.

[Clusterfrack]

Question 1: for two otherwise identical and equally reliable pistols, will the one that recoils less be easier to shoot? Answer, yes.

Question 2: does it matter? Answer, it depends.

Cross-posting from another thread, relevant to this very thing.

I finished today's practice with the very hosey classifier CM 99-23 Front Sight (https://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/99-23.pdf). Two strings of 2-2-2 on three open metric targets at 7 yds. The targets are 7.5' apart so the transitions are wide. I also shot a run with my carry gun (CZ P-07 Prograde). All the times were very close (around 2.4s for string 1 and 2.0-2.2s for string 2) because that's how I was shooting it. Here are the results:

Shadow2: -3C 12.4 HF (96%)
Shadow2: -4C, 12.06 HF (94%)
P-07: -1C, 12.5 HF (97.4%)

This was a WTF for me, and I didn't expect it. But in hindsight it kind of makes sense. I felt like it was easier to stop the very light P-07 on target during a wide transition, and the turn-and-draw felt faster/more precise. The recoil impulses of the two guns feel very similar despite the weight difference because I'm very comfortable with them both. At only 7yds I'm shooting entirely target focus.

Of course my best run was the last one, and it could have just been that. However, it does seem clear that my light compact carry gun isn't much of a disadvantage at this type of shooting.

[Duke]

https://youtu.be/IlAskrGiUlc