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rob_s
05-10-2012, 08:12 AM
I'm asking very specific questions here.


Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger?
If so, which one?
After doing so, did you note performance gains?
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy?
Did you quantify those gains?
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)?
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance?
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger?
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts?

JAD
05-10-2012, 08:38 AM
Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger?
-- yup.

If so, which one?
-- jewel.

After doing so, did you note performance gains?
-- 100 yard groups went from 4" to 2" off a sandbag rest or from prone or from kneeling. Splits seem faster, not measured.

After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger?
-- thirteen years, probably 10k rounds including TR urban rifle, no.

Pennzoil
05-10-2012, 08:47 AM
1. No - stock triggers on my Colt (sold awhile ago) and BCM feel good enough for me. I only use mine for hunting and hiking no competitions.
2-9 N/A

joshs
05-10-2012, 09:01 AM
Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger? Yes
If so, which one? Geissele SSA, SD-C, SD3G, and ALG ACT.
After doing so, did you note performance gains? SD3G yes, all others not really.
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy? Both, but the biggest change for me is that it is almost impossible to anticipate the break of the SD3G. Every shot is a "surprise" break.
Did you quantify those gains? Yes.
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)? On very high percentage targets, my splits tend to be a couple hundredths faster with the SD3G. "Fast" offhand shooting at intermediate ranges is where I see the biggest benefit from the SD3G. On the first string of the 1/2 & 1/2 with a GI trigger I tend to have 1-2 shots in the outer periphery of the 5x8 card, but with the SD3G I usually have a centered 4 inch group .5-1 second faster than with the GI.
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance? Primarily, 1/2 & 1/2 and "D-Drill" (50 yards, 5 rounds standing, reload, 5 rounds kneeling, 5 rounds prone). My score on the D-Drill tends to be 10-20 points higher (B-8 replacement as target). Also, while not as accurate as performing the same drill with both triggers. I've shot 3gun matches with both, and find that I had to concentrate much harder on my trigger press with the GI to get the same results on long range rifle stages. The SD3G frees up some brain power to focus more on shot calling, which I find extremely valuable for long range rifle stages. My score on the D-Drill also tends to be 10-20 points higher (B-8 replacement as target).
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger? Sort of, I have a "GI" trigger in my .22 trainer. I also recently tried an ALG ACT, which is similar to a good GI trigger.
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts? I have to focus more on my trigger press to get similar results as the SD3G. If I press the GI the same way I use the SD3G, I am more likely to anticipate.

Zhurdan
05-10-2012, 09:05 AM
Yes, I changed to a Wilson Combat TTU Single stage trigger.
I dropped almost a half second off of the 1 thru 5 drill. (down from 4.32 to a consistent 3.83-3.85)
I've got another rifle with a standard USGI trigger in it and I find myself not getting all the way to a full reset on rapid fire because the reset on the TTU is so short and crisp.

I'll definitely buy another one in the future for a new build. They are kind of spendy, but I've really enjoyed it and have seen some performance gains.

The one thing I absolutely love about it though is the positive feel it has on both breaking the shot and on reset.

Jay Cunningham
05-10-2012, 09:09 AM
Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger? Yes
If so, which one? Geissele SSA, SD-C, SD3G, and ALG ACT.
After doing so, did you note performance gains? SD3G yes, all others not really.
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy? Both, but the biggest change for me is that it is almost impossible to anticipate the break of the SD3G. Every shot is a "surprise" break.
Did you quantify those gains? Yes.
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)? On very high percentage targets, my splits tend to be a couple hundredths faster with the SD3G. "Fast" offhand shooting at intermediate ranges is where I see the biggest benefit from the SD3G. On the first string of the 1/2 & 1/2 with a GI trigger I tend to have 1-2 shots in the outer periphery of the 5x8 card, but with the SD3G I usually have a centered 4 inch group .5-1 second faster than with the GI.
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance? Primarily, 1/2 & 1/2 and "D-Drill" (50 yards, 5 rounds standing, reload, 5 rounds kneeling, 5 rounds prone). My score on the D-Drill tends to be 10-20 points higher (B-8 replacement as target). Also, while not as accurate as performing the same drill with both triggers. I've shot 3gun matches with both, and find that I had to concentrate much harder on my trigger press with the GI to get the same results on long range rifle stages. The SD3G frees up some brain power to focus more on shot calling, which I find extremely valuable for long range rifle stages. My score on the D-Drill also tends to be 10-20 points higher (B-8 replacement as target).
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger? Sort of, I have a "GI" trigger in my .22 trainer. I also recently tried an ALG ACT, which is similar to a good GI trigger.
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts? I have to focus more on my trigger press to get similar results as the SD3G. If I press the GI the same way I use the SD3G, I am more likely to anticipate.


Nice!

It's apparently actually possible for people to define "better" if they're not lazy or Kool-Aid drunk.

JDM
05-10-2012, 09:12 AM
No. I have the stock trigger in my rifle.

SamuelBLong
05-10-2012, 09:25 AM
I'm asking very specific questions here.


Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger?
If so, which one?
After doing so, did you note performance gains?
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy?
Did you quantify those gains?
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)?
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance?
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger?
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts?



1 & 2) Yes, Geissele SSA

3 & 4) Yes, Both

5 & 6) Yes, Splits improved 0.08, Better accuracy at speed and during slow fire.

7) HSP Combat Readyness Drill, VTAC 1-5, VTAC 1/2 & 1/2, Slow fire @ 100m - 300m, and other drills

8) No, I ended up putting SSA's in my other guns. SSF on order for my M16.

Dr. No
05-10-2012, 10:41 AM
I have been running the http://www.cmctriggers.com drop in unit for about 6 years now in my work gun. I can't say I'm quite as scientific as these guys are as far as being able to give particular data as to why I like it better, but I can tout its features:

1. Single stage design. I don't particularly like the two-stage rifle trigger design. I find that when I set up on the trigger I like to start to apply pressure and when it breaks my hand/finger haven't shifted much, so in my mind I'm more consistent because I'm not moving as much. I equate it to the difference between the first shot on a HK LEM trigger and a tuned 1911 trigger.

2. Drop in design. This has it's plus and minuses, really - the plus is it's stupid easy to install. Drop it in, push pins in, done. The down side is if something small breaks (disconnector spring, etc?) It has to go back to the factory for a repair, so it's not very field serviceable. The factory has been willing to bend over backwards for customers so CS is not a question. I still carry a backup OEM trigger setup when I'm headed to classes, just in case. The manufacturer recommends sending it in for a spring tune up ever 15k. I've experienced no issues with it in the 8k I have on the gun.

3. Quick reset and consistent clean break. This is very helpful on both up close targets and distance. I've shot several 3 gun stages where you had a 4 pack of targets in your face and I can go from .14 splits on those to engaging targets at 500y without thought.

4. Price is mid-range for aftermarket triggers. Considering the reliability and features, I think it's well priced.

Our department recently changed policy to state that all triggers had to be over 4.5#'s. I called up the factory guys and they got me re-sprung with no issues. I've been quite happy.

Oh - and, ETA : I have run the geissle and JP triggers as well. I've settled on the cmc for the above.

Odin Bravo One
05-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger? Yup.
If so, which one? Geiselle, Wilson TTU, CMC, JP Enterprises
After doing so, did you note performance gains? Nope.
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy? N/A
Did you quantify those gains?
Nope. I don't do a whole lot of scientific studies during training.
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)?N/A
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance?N/A
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger? I still have some of them installed. But I have GI triggers too.
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts? Nope.

The only exception is on a purpose built precision rifle. It has a two stage that does make a difference in accuracy at extended ranges. Meaning, it is much easier to get a clean break than a GI, and has a lighter hammer and faster lock time, so I don't get as much shooter error in the trigger press as I do with a GI.

Chris Rhines
05-10-2012, 07:53 PM
Yes. I also have several ARs that have had aftermarket triggers right from the build-out.
ARGold (my current choice), Geiselle S3G and SSA, JP Enterprises, Timney, CMC, Accuracy Speaks
Yes, immediate and significant.
Not really. It's tough to do a controlled study in practical shooting, plus my performance tracking has never been particularly good.
N/A.
My usual rifle drills. VTAC 1-5, VTAC Half-and-Half, Box Drills @ 7y, 15y, and 25y, D-Drill @ 50y, Standing Snap-Shot @ 25y, 50y, and 100y, API Rifle Ten and Rifle Bounce (on steel.)
No.
No. It would be interesting to try a comparison with a standard AR trigger, but I see no reason to switch back now that I have ARGold triggers in all my game guns.


-C

Steady Up
05-12-2012, 12:32 AM
1. No, standard USGI trigger for me.

Where I'm at in terms of proficiency and training (shooting an AR for about 1.5 years, pistol 3 years), I'd rather spend my money on ammo and training. In other words, I am not skilled enough to potentially recognize any benefits an upgraded trigger may provide. Or, the upgraded trigger would be an excuse for me to mask poor technique.

ToddG
05-12-2012, 08:36 AM
Did you quantify those gains?

Crazy talk is crazy.

If people wanted me to quantify my shooting, they'd put scoring rings on targets and ... whoa, wait a minute...

YVK
05-12-2012, 11:03 AM
I'm asking very specific questions here.


Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger? Yes
If so, which one? The very first Geiselle adjustable model on my MSTN and SSA on BCM
After doing so, did you note performance gains? Yes
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy? Both
Did you quantify those gains? Very little for you to consider seriously.
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)? With MSTN which is my precision AR I was able to shoot sub-MOA groups at 100. With BCM which is a go-to training AR I was able to meet Costa's "give me six rounds" challenge. Couldn't do either with stock trigger. That's all for quantification.
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance? See above
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger No.?
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts? N/A


Answers above. Not much objectivity here, ARs and long arms in general have gone quite low on my priority list.

Suvorov
05-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Here you go.


I'm asking very specific questions here.


Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger?
- A few years back I changed out my stock trigger in my A2 rifle I used for NRA service rifle and like shooting with a White Oak trigger. I moved the trigger to my SPR once it was built.
- I recently put an ALG trigger on my "backup" carbine. While it is basically a stock trigger it is an improved trigger and thus I will include it.
If so, which one?
- White Oak, and ALG.
After doing so, did you note performance gains?
- Yes for the White Oak, debatable for the ALG
If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy?
- White Oak - accuracy
- ALG - unknown at this point.
Did you quantify those gains?
- A standard 4 position course of fire I used for training consisting of 5 rounds at 100 yards in each position. Scores improved by 10 points plus (about 5%) with a few more X rings noticeable.
- For the carbine I use Paul Howe's TRI standards. I have only ran through the TRI standards with the ALG once and did not notice a big improvement (not overly surprised).
If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)?
- See Above
What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance?
- See Above
After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger?
- With about 1500 rounds through the White Oak I would not go back to stock for precision and match use. I do have some concerns about its longevity as it is based on the Rock River trigger and am considering at some point replacing it with a SSA trigger.
- While the verdict is still out on how much better I shoot with the ALG trigger than the stock (Daniel Defense) parts kit trigger, it is definitely smoother and gives me more "pride of ownership." Considering the price point, I intend to equip any future carbines with this trigger.
If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts?
- N/A

FotoTomas
05-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Crazy talk is crazy.

If people wanted me to quantify my shooting, they'd put scoring rings on targets and ... whoa, wait a minute...

What saddens me is my agency uses a target with no scoring marks at all (FBI "Q") and as an instructor I am forbidden from counting more than the minimum 40 hits when qualifying. No records allowed or kept of hits for drills other than qualifying. This "liability exposure" crap is very sad.

As for the trigger on my carbine... it is stock and I have no experience with an aftermarket model. Been shooting my main Bushmaster now for about 9 years. No problems and I stay in the middle of the pack at the local 3 gun matches. Bout time I stepped up and tried to "improve" as opposed to simply showing up at the matches. :)

Thanks all for the info as I can start looking for a better trigger myself.

SecondsCount
05-13-2012, 10:02 PM
For target shooting I like my Bill Springfield tuned "GI" trigger that cost $40 but for general purpose carbine shooting I find the standard "GI" trigger to work just fine.

The Bill Springfield has less takeup as well as being smoother, and the reset is shorter than the original trigger. With a little more practice and concentration I am sure I could make up the difference.

Slavex
05-14-2012, 12:11 AM
yes I swapped out my Colt trigger, I don't even remember what's in there now. I do know (and no I didn't keep notes) that the old trigger was gritty, heavy and horrible, the one it has now is crisp, not so heavy, and nice. hope that helps.........

rob_s
05-14-2012, 03:32 AM
For target shooting I like my Bill Springfield tuned "GI" trigger that cost $40 but for general purpose carbine shooting I find the standard "GI" trigger to work just fine.

The Bill Springfield has less takeup as well as being smoother, and the reset is shorter than the original trigger. With a little more practice and concentration I am sure I could make up the difference.


yes I swapped out my Colt trigger, I don't even remember what's in there now. I do know (and no I didn't keep notes) that the old trigger was gritty, heavy and horrible, the one it has now is crisp, not so heavy, and nice. hope that helps.........

Just to be clear, these are actually the exact opposite of the kinds of answers I was looking for. I'm specifically looking for information about measured improvement in time or accuracy.

ETA:
also, I would be remiss if I did not encourage you to do some googling of Bill Springfield triggers. Removing the surface hardening from the GI trigger is a bad idea, and there are plenty of reports of Springfield triggers doubling or worse. I had one myself that did it.

rob_s
05-14-2012, 03:53 AM
To answer my own questions...


I'm asking very specific questions here.


Have you changed the trigger in your AR from the stock, "GI", part to an aftermarket trigger?
Yes

If so, which one?
Geissele SSA and SD-3G

After doing so, did you note performance gains?
No

If so, were they gains in speed or accuracy?
N/A

Did you quantify those gains?
Yes.

If so, what is your quantified gain (percentage, or fixed numbers are fine, both is better)?
0

What tests (drills?) did you perform to check performance?
Various VTAC (1-5, 2x2x2, etc. and 100 & 200 yard bullseye shooting

After spending a considerable amount of time (how much?) with the aftermarket trigger, did you go back to the GI trigger?
I believe I have ~1600 rounds on the SD-3G and ~1800 on the SSA

If so, did you notice any performance change relative to your prior performance with the stock parts?
Yes. My performance with the stock trigger was worse when I went back to it in terms of group sizes and speed at close range.

RobG
05-16-2012, 12:11 AM
Timely topic as I am starting a build on a stripped lower. Are you saying that you saw no quantifiable gains in your shooting abilities with an aftermarket trigger, but rather a degradation of your skills with a stock rifle?

rob_s
05-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Timely topic as I am starting a build on a stripped lower. Are you saying that you saw no quantifiable gains in your shooting abilities with an aftermarket trigger, but rather a degradation of your skills with a stock rifle?

That is what happened to me. My theory is that the "better" trigger allowed me to be lazier to get the same results, and that laziness carried over to the stock part and therefore negatively impacted both accuracy and speed.

I saw a similar effect with my handgun shooting. I started out shooting a Glock, then happened to shoot a Sig at one match and liked teh SA trigger pull. Next logical thing was to get a gun with a pull that was SA all the time, the 1911. I actually never classified as high with the 1911 as I did with the Glock (was SSP Sharpshooter to begin with, then CDP Marksman with the 1911), and when I finally went back to the Glock I found that the bad habits the 1911 masked were now firmly entrenched. I only recently got back to where I started, Sharpshooter, with the Glock.

SecondsCount
05-16-2012, 09:14 AM
Just to be clear, these are actually the exact opposite of the kinds of answers I was looking for. I'm specifically looking for information about measured improvement in time or accuracy.

ETA:
also, I would be remiss if I did not encourage you to do some googling of Bill Springfield triggers. Removing the surface hardening from the GI trigger is a bad idea, and there are plenty of reports of Springfield triggers doubling or worse. I had one myself that did it.

I am sorry that I can't give you quantifiable differences because the trigger setups that I have are in two different guns. One gun is setup as a standard midlength carbine in a "milspec" configuration and the Springfield trigger is in an AR with a Magpul grip and stock, free floated VTAC handguard, compensator, etc. When shooting at low probability targets at distances greater than 100 yards, I can tell a difference in speed and accuracy between the two setups but that is for several reasons, not just the trigger.

Thanks for the tip on the Springfield trigger job. I had seen some posts a while back about issues associated with them but I have not seen anything that would cause concern. Due to some primers popping on some reloads with over zealous pocket swaging, I have had to take the trigger group out twice on this AR and inspected the surfaces. No excessive wear is being displayed but I do use a good Teflon grease on the contact points.