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KevH
02-23-2020, 10:35 PM
I've avoided buying my own pistol optic thus far. I've mounted a few for people, have shot a few, but never messed with buying one of my own. One of our neighboring agencies is now issuing Trijicon RMR's on all their Glock MOS pistols and there are at least a dozen folks at my own department running RMR's. As an instructor and armorer I think I need to get get one to play with.

I have an astigmatism that makes red dots turn into blurry 8's, especially when the brightness increases. I've had an old Aimpoint CompM2 on my M4 at work and I make it work, but it's never been ideal. I'm thinking a larger dot at lower brightness will be helpful.

I think I'm going to go for the RMR Type 2 6.5 MOA adjustable (RM07-C-700679) (https://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-RM07-C-700679-Adjustable-Sight-Reticle/dp/B071XFFLBJ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=RMR+Type+2+6.5+MOA+adjustable&qid=1582548828&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=2c5a3b397109c7be044bbe91d9e38ea2&language=en_US). Does that model make sense?

I have a Glock 22 Gen3 (the first Glock I ever purchased) sitting in the back of my safe doing nothing. I'm thinking of sticking it on that gun along with 10-8 suppressor height sights as a backup. Who do you recommend to mill the slide to accept the RMR?

jbrimlow
02-23-2020, 11:24 PM
I have had good experiences with Mark Housel of L&M precision. https://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/product/trijicon-rmr-optic-installation-on-your-slide/#slide-model

Work was great, turnaround time was quick.


Re: that sight, your reasoning seems sound. Have you looked through that optic, maybe on a buddy's gun?

I love me some red dots, but I don't have astigmatism, so I can't comment further on that.

LittleLebowski
02-23-2020, 11:26 PM
I have had good experiences with Mark Housel of L&M precision. https://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/services/

Work was great, turnaround time was quick.


Re: that sight, your reasoning seems sound. Have you looked through that optic, maybe on a buddy's gun?

I love me some red dots, but I don't have astigmatism, so I can't comment further on that.

Mark Housel

Alpha Sierra
02-24-2020, 05:36 AM
I think I'm going to go for the RMR Type 2 6.5 MOA adjustable (RM07-C-700679). (https://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-RM07-C-700679-Adjustable-Sight-Reticle/dp/B071XFFLBJ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=RMR+Type+2+6.5+MOA+adjustable&qid=1582548828&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=2c5a3b397109c7be044bbe91d9e38ea2&language=en_US) Does that model make sense?
Out of all RMRs that's the one.

IME over several Aimpoint, Holosun, and Trijicon RDSs with dots ranging from 2 to 4 to 6.5 MOA, the larger the dot the easier it is to see it crisply.

Do what you can to have your astigmatism reduced as much as possible.

1911Nut
02-24-2020, 04:08 PM
Another vote for Mark Housel.

Duces Tecum
02-24-2020, 06:00 PM
I've avoided buying my own pistol optic thus far. I've mounted a few for people, have shot a few, but never messed with buying one of my own. One of our neighboring agencies is now issuing Trijicon RMR's on all their Glock MOS pistols and there are at least a dozen folks at my own department running RMR's. As an instructor and armorer I think I need to get get one to play with.

I have an astigmatism that makes red dots turn into blurry 8's, especially when the brightness increases. I've had an old Aimpoint CompM2 on my M4 at work and I make it work, but it's never been ideal. I'm thinking a larger dot at lower brightness will be helpful.

I think I'm going to go for the RMR Type 2 6.5 MOA adjustable (RM07-C-700679) (https://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-RM07-C-700679-Adjustable-Sight-Reticle/dp/B071XFFLBJ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=RMR+Type+2+6.5+MOA+adjustable&qid=1582548828&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=2c5a3b397109c7be044bbe91d9e38ea2&language=en_US). Does that model make sense?

I have a Glock 22 Gen3 (the first Glock I ever purchased) sitting in the back of my safe doing nothing. I'm thinking of sticking it on that gun along with 10-8 suppressor height sights as a backup. Who do you recommend to mill the slide to accept the RMR?

Sometimes I wonder whether the rear glass on a pistol optic could be optometrically reground to minimize the effects of astigmatism. Would have to be individual prescriptions, of course, but a lot of us might benefit from the result. Might even be something a third-party provider could arrange.

Redhat
02-24-2020, 06:21 PM
Sometimes I wonder whether the rear glass on a pistol optic could be optometrically reground to minimize the effects of astigmatism. Would have to be individual prescriptions, of course, but a lot of us might benefit from the result. Might even be something a third-party provider could arrange.

Or they might be able to put a prescription lens of sorts over the factory lens.

1Rangemaster
02-24-2020, 08:44 PM
To the OP, Mark Housel of L&M Precision is top drawer-no doubts there.

I am interested in seeing how a .40 cal works out; the .40 in a G23 is about as snappy a choice as any. Only a .357 would give you a little more slide velocity I would think. Could be issues with screws loosening, breaking, etc. You may want to consider a 9mm barrel, ejector, etc. for long term use.

Can’t go wrong with the RMR2 either. I’m partial to the ACRO, but one has to pay careful attention to it. I have an RMR2 on a duty gun, and it is the least trouble free it seems, of all choices. FWIW, Aimpoint and Trijicon are the only viable duty solutions at the present time, IMO. I would recommend in the strongest possible terms back up sights; the AmeriGlo GL-429 I think are the the simplest solution.

My personal experience goes back over one year. I had to have a dedicated day or two of exclusive work with the gun, sight, holster,etc., to get comfortable with the concept. I’d encourage you to factor that into your schedule. I’m still learning, but believe it’s worth it!

I also think the next one to two years will bring a lot of improvements to the units.

Olim9
02-25-2020, 08:29 PM
I started out with the 6.5 MOA RMR. It served me well but after shooting a 1 MOA and then a 2 MOA Holosun, I personally find it to be way too big for my liking. YMMV, there's a bunch of super smart shooters that run circles around me like BJ Norris who prefer bigger dots. I'm not sure how astigmatisms work so I cannot give you an absolute recommendation. John Dufresne has an interesting video regarding astigmatisms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DKb1GmV-cE

As for optic milling, I would go with someone reputable that has been in the business for a while and has a good warranty. Shops like ATEi and L&M Precision do exceptional work for when it comes to milling. I had Mark at L&M do my G19 a few years ago and his work is top notch. He degreases the slide and boresights your dot if you bring it to him which is pretty cool. I'm pretty content with having a slide that can only accept Trijicon/Holosuns for now but it would be wise to consider getting a future proof option. Shops like Agency Arms and Mac Defense Industries offers modular plates if you want to go that route. I have a slide that was done up by Mac Defense that I'm really happy about.

What you can do is take a class with a reputable RDS instructor before you buy one. Not only will you learn a lot of stuff but instructors typically have multiple guns they bring if you ask in advance and you might be able to actually borrow one for the entire training day. A class I took with Dan Smith with Centrifuge Training had a small segment where students sampled various kinds of optics which was pretty nice.

Erick Gelhaus
02-26-2020, 10:03 AM
I have pistols machined by both Housel / L&M Precision and ATEI, as well as a couple Unity Tactical Atom mount slides. A very happy with Housel's work. The ATEI work for an Acro and their Shim Sight is truly slick. All but the most recent Atei slide have flat black suppressor height sights, no tritium but a bit of neon yellow nail polish at the very tip.

Fwiw, I have a couple astigmatisms and see interesting things inside Aimpoints on carbines. I'm not noticing issues with PMOs.

KevH
02-26-2020, 02:18 PM
UPDATE

Been a busy week for me.

So the Trijicon RMR is on its way. I should have it by early next week.

I've decided to skip milling the old G22 for now and buy G17 Gen5 MOS. For the cost of milling and refinishing I figured why not. I'm going to go try to pickup the gun tonight or tomorrow.

I ordered a 10-8 precision MOS suppressor height rear sight and the Trijicon adapter plate from Brownells. They also should be here by early next week. I already have a Dawson .315 fiber optic front sight sitting in a baggy in my box-o-parts so I'll use that in the front with a green rod.

I have a Safariland 6390RDS on the way as well (I still can't believe I actually found one).

Am I missing anything?

My hope is to run this thing on an in-service day next Friday (3/6) which means I need to get it assembled and pay with it first mid next week.

1Rangemaster
02-26-2020, 02:59 PM
I think you’ll be very happy with the results. Try and dedicate some dry and live fire for indexing, etc.
The only thing I would add is to take care in mounting the plate and sight on the pistol. I’ve installed a few dozen by now, and attention to detail has made almost all successful. Two exceptions for plates loosening after a few thousand rounds and vigorous work. There’s a thread here that has worked well.
Good luck on the journey

theJanitor
02-26-2020, 07:34 PM
StraitR

Erick Gelhaus
02-26-2020, 10:59 PM
Take a close look at the C and H plates, rather than the stock MOS version. They are getting pretty favorable reviews.

StraitR
02-26-2020, 11:38 PM
@StraitR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=3620)


I think I'm going to go for the RMR Type 2 6.5 MOA adjustable (RM07-C-700679) (https://www.amazon.com/Trijicon-RM07-C-700679-Adjustable-Sight-Reticle/dp/B071XFFLBJ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=RMR+Type+2+6.5+MOA+adjustable&qid=1582548828&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=2c5a3b397109c7be044bbe91d9e38ea2&language=en_US). Does that model make sense?

I'll preface this with the fact that I consider myself a pistol red dot noob, playing with them on and off (mostly off) for the last nine years. In 2011 I bought an RM02 8moa and the Trijicon dovetail mount for a G19. In 2011, an RDS on defensive handguns was a relatively new concept. My issues were no BUIS and the optic was mounted noticeably high (totally different index). Hated it, and went back to irons after a few months. At the time, I shot a few times a week and my uncorrected vision was perfect.

I later went on to put that RMR on a couple different MOS guns, just for sake of funsies. Still, my eyesight wasn't at a point that I felt the dot was a "must have", so I remained unsold on the concept for my day to day uses. In the last couple years my vision has deteriorated. Wanting back in the game with a dot that was as maintenance free as the pistol (Glock), I waited the better part of two years for the ACRO to come out. Bought one within weeks of release. Battery life aside, I found the tiny 2moa dot tough for me to look past. In other words, the smaller dot kept drawing my eye back in an attempt to confirm location. My vision would constantly shift back and forth from target focus to dot confirmation. This never happened with the 8moa RM02.

I too have an astigmatism in my dominant eye, and a lot of red dots look like comets or commas. The thing is, the biggest benefit of red dot optics is to stay target focused (single focal plane), so dot distortion wasn't a huge factor for me. My issue, as stated above, is that I can't "see" the smaller dots enough to remain confidently target focused.

I recently purchased the same RM07 6.5moa model listed above and I'm quite happy with it. Dot is clear (for me) if I stare at it, but more importantly, it's much easier for me to locate and see (read: look past) while staying target focused. The other upside (for me anyway) of larger dots is less perceived wobble/movement than smaller dots. Of course, all this is all pretty subjective and unique to each individual and their vision.

HCM
02-26-2020, 11:48 PM
UPDATE

Been a busy week for me.

So the Trijicon RMR is on its way. I should have it by early next week.

I've decided to skip milling the old G22 for now and buy G17 Gen5 MOS. For the cost of milling and refinishing I figured why not. I'm going to go try to pickup the gun tonight or tomorrow.

I ordered a 10-8 precision MOS suppressor height rear sight and the Trijicon adapter plate from Brownells. They also should be here by early next week. I already have a Dawson .315 fiber optic front sight sitting in a baggy in my box-o-parts so I'll use that in the front with a green rod.

I have a Safariland 6390RDS on the way as well (I still can't believe I actually found one).

Am I missing anything?

My hope is to run this thing on an in-service day next Friday (3/6) which means I need to get it assembled and pay with it first mid next week.

1) For mounting on the MOS the C&H plate is THE way to vs the Trijicon. Better fit and the raised screw bosses help support the optic much better than tiny screws alone, the raised bosses give you twice as much thread engagement and the bosses take some of the shearing forces at the juncture of the plate and optic where the factory screws often shear.

https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/product/c-h-precision-glock-mos-plates-v3-rmr-sro-holosun-dpp/

2) VC3 vibratite > Loctite for use on the MOS.

3) Read this sticky from NickDrak on mounting. Particularly the part about using a torque driver not guessing based on feel. The screws in the MOS system are small. Too tight and too loose are both bad.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me)

What we are learning with the pistol RDS is “proper” mounting makes a significant difference in the reliability and durability of the RDS. Much more so than on long guns.

HCM
02-26-2020, 11:58 PM
Take a close look at the C and H plates, rather than the stock MOS version. They are getting pretty favorable reviews.

Top RDS trainers are recommending that agencies who want to issue or approve the MOS In lieu of milling (which is gonna be most Agencies) use the C&H plate. I’m a fan.


https://youtu.be/hlH4pV3dNOk

StraitR
02-27-2020, 12:02 AM
1) For mounting on the MOS the C&H plate is THE way to vs the Trijicon. Better fit and the raised screw bosses help support the optic much better than tiny screws alone.

https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/product/c-h-precision-glock-mos-plates-v3-rmr-sro-holosun-dpp/

2) VC3 vibratite > Loctite for use on the MOS.

3) Read this sticky from NickDrak on mounting. Particularly the part about using a torque driver not guessing based on feel. The screws in the MOS system are small. Too tight and too loose are both bad.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me)

Worth noting about #3 and that installation thread, is that Nick suggests using 14 in/lbs of torque on the CH V3 plate RMR screws. It apparently is working for him, but the instructions that came with my recently received CH V3 plate state 9.5 in/lbs of torque.

In that same thread, @ssb (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=6556) used 14 in/lbs of torque on his V3 plate, and (much) later had the bosses break when trying to replace a battery. Possibly a coincidence, but worth noting the torque value differences and potential pitfalls.

I used Vibra-Tite VC-3 and the recommended 9.5 in/lbs of torque to play it safe. Time will tell how that works out.

Also, the V3 plates are on sale and a steel version (V4) is due out shortly. Might be worth waiting for.

HCM
02-27-2020, 12:06 AM
Worth noting about #3 and that installation thread, is that Nick suggests using 14 in/lbs of torque on the CH V3 plate RMR screws. It apparently is working for him, but the instructions that came with my recently received CH V3 plate state 9.5 in/lbs of torque.

In that same thread, @ssb (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=6556) used 14 in/lbs of torque on his V3 plate, and (much) later had the bosses break when trying to replace a battery. Possibly a coincidence, but worth noting the torque value differences and potential pitfalls.

I used Vibra-Tite VC-3 and the recommended 9.5 in/lbs to play it safe. Time will tell how that works out.

Nick has been doing the RDS pistol thing a while and I think 14lbs was based on prior experience with other mounting systems, all of which are steel on steel.

The C&H plate is aluminum so I could seen a lower torque due to both the material and the fact you have 2x the thread engagement.

StraitR
02-27-2020, 12:10 AM
Nick has been doing the RDS pistol thing a while and I think 14lbs was based on prior experience with other mounting systems, all of which are steel on steel.

The C&H plate is aluminum so I could seen a lower torque due to both the material and the fact you have 2x the thread engagement.

I asked a specific question*, and got a specific answer HERE (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me)&p=996344&viewfull=1#post996344).

*When I asked that, the only information I could find about installation instructions was on an older YT video, and it showed 8/6.5 in/lbs. The instructions I received with my V3 said 9.5 in/lbs.

HCM
02-27-2020, 12:17 AM
I asked a specific question*, and got a specific answer HERE (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me)&p=996344&viewfull=1#post996344).

*When I asked that, the only information I could find about installation instructions was on an older YT video, and it showed 8/6.5 in/lbs. The instructions I received with my V3 said 9.5 in/lbs.

More interesting is Forward Controls Design is apparently coming out with a steel competitor to the C&H and C&H is coming out with a V4?

Anyone know if the C&H V4 will be aluminum or steel ?

All of this is just another reason to hate an optic that requires dismounting to change the battery.

KevH
02-27-2020, 12:25 AM
Top RDS trainers are recommending that agencies who want to issue or approve the MOS In lieu of milling (which is gonna be most Agencies) use the C&H plate. I’m a fan.



He's apparently coming out with a V4 and I may try that once it comes out.

I installed a the factory Glock/Trijicon combo on one of our officer's guns (a Gen4 G34 MOS) back in October 2015 following the factory directions. He's carried that gun as a K9 handler, SWAT officer and now on a Fed task force ever since. He also has competed with it in various tactical competitions with lots of obstacle course nonsense, had a decent amount of salt water exposure during Urban Shield a few years back (I spent hours having to clean rust off of guy's Noveske rifles), and has put in excess of 15,000 rounds through the gun. If it was going to break then it would have done it by now.

I followed the factory directions and have changed the battery for him three times. The only issue he has had with it was flicker (it's an older Pre-Type 2 RMR) and that was fixed with the Shoe-Goo trick which totally worked.

Anecdotal yes, but there are lots of others out there using the factory setup. Other than cosmetics I'm not too worried about it.

HCM
02-27-2020, 12:38 AM
He's apparently coming out with a V4 and I may try that once it comes out.

I installed a the factory Glock/Trijicon combo on one of our officer's guns (a Gen4 G34 MOS) back in October 2015 following the factory directions. He's carried that gun as a K9 handler, SWAT officer and now on a Fed task force ever since. He also has competed with it in various tactical competitions with lots of obstacle course nonsense, had a decent amount of salt water exposure during Urban Shield a few years back (I spent hours having to clean rust off of guy's Noveske rifles), and has put in excess of 15,000 rounds through the gun. If it was going to break then it would have done it by now.

I followed the factory directions and have changed the battery for him three times. The only issue he has had with it was flicker (it's an older Pre-Type 2 RMR) and that was fixed with the Shoe-Goo trick which totally worked.

Anecdotal yes, but there are lots of others out there using the factory setup. Other than cosmetics I'm not too worried about it.

I’m interested in the steel plate from FCD, Rodger Wang is a gifted engineer but honestly I hate the small window and the tint of the RMR even more than dismounting to change the battery.

Hambo
02-27-2020, 06:26 AM
I have an astigmatism that makes red dots turn into blurry 8's, especially when the brightness increases. I've had an old Aimpoint CompM2 on my M4 at work and I make it work, but it's never been ideal. I'm thinking a larger dot at lower brightness will be helpful.

It's not what you asked, but get that shit corrected. IME it only gets worse with age and other vision changes.

Alpha Sierra
02-27-2020, 12:49 PM
It's not what you asked, but get that shit corrected. IME it only gets worse with age and other vision changes.

+1

I don't know why people suffer through astigmatism or any other easily correctable vision defect.

willie
02-27-2020, 03:50 PM
I have had extreme astigmatism for over 60 years. It can be corrected in many cases to allow 20/20 vision with glasses or contact lens. That has been my experience, but I would still have the same red dot complaints mentioned here.

KevH
02-28-2020, 05:25 PM
Just now...

https://i.imgur.com/3mn7g41l.jpg

Need to wait for the thread locker to cure.

KevH
02-29-2020, 02:54 AM
Hambo


+1

I don't know why people suffer through astigmatism or any other easily correctable vision defect.

How do you suggest correcting it besides glasses?

Hambo
02-29-2020, 05:55 AM
Hambo



How do you suggest correcting it besides glasses?

Glasses or contacts. You'll need them eventually, so you might as well get started and see dots clearly.

Willard
02-29-2020, 06:39 AM
I am trying to catch up this topic (red dots on carbines but not pistols)...from what I'm reading you have to remove the RMR optic to change the batteries but this changed with the SRO, but the SRO isn't duty ready, so games only...am I getting the jest of this?

GearFondler
02-29-2020, 10:57 AM
I am trying to catch up this topic (red dots on carbines but not pistols)...from what I'm reading you have to remove the RMR optic to change the batteries but this changed with the SRO, but the SRO isn't duty ready, so games only...am I getting the jest of this?Yep, that's an accurate summation.