pistol-forum.com Rogers Shooting School trip 6-11 May 2012

[Jason F]

Hope you fellas are having fun this week.... I know I'm one of many who wished we could have joined you guys.


Looking forward to hearing about the week in an AAR soon I hope.

[EmanP]

I've been thinking about it for 3 days now. I was supposed to be there and had to drop out. :(

[ToddG]

We've got 11 students, the 10 organized by pistol-forum.com and one add-on who is actually the newest member of the Rogers training cadre. He's taking the class as a refresher and to get more acquainted with things from the instruction/admin side of the house.

I'm happy to report that nine out of the ten PF folks passed the test on their very first try (four basic, four intermediate, one advanced). The instructors told me after class how impressed they were with the group's performance. I'm confident everyone will go home with a passing grade by the end of the week: a rarity at Rogers.

We also have three F.A.S.T. coin holders in the class, so the race for the week's Top Gun should be interesting.

Oh, and Bill Rogers shot a 122 for the demo today. I hate that guy.

[FJR]

Oh, and Bill Rogers shot a 122 for the demo today. I hate that guy.


Using what pistol???

[GJM]

Don't think it much matters, but he has used a G17 or M&P9 FS when I have been there.

[MDS]

A gen4g17 with gfa, from an als. Also he has a cut on the pad of his left index finger, you can see him wince when he works the trigger who. :thumbup:

[EmanP]

WOW! 9 out of 10 passing on thier first attempt is spectacular!

[JHC]

A gen4g17 with gfa, from an als. Also he has a cut on the pad of his left index finger, you can see him wince when he works the trigger who. :thumbup:

I have to ask . . . what connector? ;)

Thanks

[ToddG]

Everyone passed today. That's pretty spectacular for day two.

Everyone PM JV and congratulate him on his 119! Awesome score for just his second time seeing the test. Kicked my butt by many points!

Today we had three Advanced, one Intermediate, and six Basic.

[the_swede]

What test is this your talking about?

[ToddG]

There is a 9-part, 125-point test that students shoot every day (and twice on Thursday) when attending Rogers. The parts are also referred to as tests, so the test has Test 1, Test 2, etc. You need a score of at least 70 to pass, 90 gets you an Intermediate rating for the week, and if you score 110 or better you earn an Advanced certificate.

[HeadHunter]

I have to ask . . . what connector? ;)

Bill likes the standard connector. He doesn't care for a light trigger.

[the_swede]

There is a 9-part, 125-point test that students shoot every day (and twice on Thursday) when attending Rogers. The parts are also referred to as tests, so the test has Test 1, Test 2, etc. You need a score of at least 70 to pass, 90 gets you an Intermediate rating for the week, and if you score 110 or better you earn an Advanced certificate.
Thanks! Are those uploaded somewhere on the intergalacticweb or do you have to attend a Rogers course to able to shoot them?

[ToddG]

You need access to their reactive steel target system and the right program of times and exposures.

[JHC]

Bill likes the standard connector. He doesn't care for a light trigger.

Standard in a Gen 4 . . . . I suppose "dot" connector for more recent guns. That's really interesting. Thank you!

[Odin Bravo One]

You need access to their reactive steel target system and the right program of times and exposures.

I've got the steel............

Would be cool if someone had the CoF...........

[ToddG]

I've got the steel............
Would be cool if someone had the CoF...........

Worst case, you could figure it out from videos. I believe Bill is pretty adamant about who gets the "official" test and it's related to whether the system was bought through him or not.

I'd love to have the steel to begin with. I can't think of anything more fun than to put on a three day reactive steel class. There is just so much you can accomplish.

[Failure2Stop]

I'd love to have the steel to begin with. I can't think of anything more fun than to put on a three day reactive steel class. There is just so much you can accomplish.

Hell yeah.

I could die a happy death if I had frequent access to a Rogers Range.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

Sean+ToddG+F2S = solution

Unfortunately, Sean is being a selfish #$%@ with the whole "serving my country in a war zone" thing when he should be thinking about us and the fun we could be having.

[ToddG]

I asked the Rogers staff last night about how our class was faring compared to the norm. They said that by day two, normally only about 60% of first time students have passed. We're 8 for 8 in our group (two of us have been to Rogers before).

They also said it was even more rare to have three Advanced in a class, especially one our size. I'm very happy to report that the three Advanced shooters so far are the three F.A.S.T. coin (http://pistol-training.com/fastest) holders: JV, Todd Kennedy, and me. :cool:

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/ptc-coin-350x186.jpg
Don't leave home without it!

[HeadHunter]

There are videos of some of the Tests on my YouTube Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/HeadHunter100?feature=mhee). Search for "Rogers"

[CCT125US]

Any idea on how much the system costs? We could all chip in and centrally locate it for everyone to use, say in London, Ohio. I know a guy there...

[ToddG]

$10-15k per lane last I asked. And Culpeper VA is much more accessible by major airports. :cool:

[Prdator]

Or you could get your Schedule worked out...... and come shoot the one I have access to.......... Two programable lanes on one range and it also has more Steel than you can shake a stick at.

[EMC]

There are videos of some of the Tests on my YouTube Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/HeadHunter100?feature=mhee). Search for "Rogers"

Dang that looks difficult!

[ErnieB]

So with 3 coin holders in the class who has been bold enough to drop theirs and call out the other two at the bar/dinner? :D

[fuse]

$10-15k per lane last I asked. And Culpeper VA is much more accessible by major airports. :cool:

Wow.

How much of this is intellectual property? The system looks so simple on the surface! Testament to the invention, I suppose.

[Odin Bravo One]

Yeah, I'll probably just YouTube the various stages until I get something close. Happiness is 6 Roger's bays, a case of 9mm, and an afternoon to kill.

[Mr_White]

Wow. Awesome job guys! Great shooting. I wish I could be there.

[MDS]

Or you could get your Schedule worked out...... and come shoot the one I have access to.......... Two programable lanes on one range and it also has more Steel than you can shake a stick at.

Where is that?

[Failure2Stop]

Where is that?

Area 57

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[MDS]

Area 57

Gah! And me fresh out of alien tech to trade for access. ;)

In all seriousness, even one or two reactive targets like these would revolutionize my practice... I've been wondering why they don't put one on rails.

[Prdator]

Near Oklahoma City. Not Area 51....

[losrobles]

Wow.

How much of this is intellectual property? The system looks so simple on the surface! Testament to the invention, I suppose.

The only thing I can think of that's intellectual property there would be the actual computer program he uses to run the system. Otherwise, Bill's an open book regarding his tests, concepts and philosophy. He wrote one as well.

I'm lucky. I have access to 2 of his ranges at our academy.

Todd, if you get the chance, say hello to Bill from Ken and Mark in Tallahassee.

[ToddG]

Or you could get your Schedule worked out...... and come shoot the one I have access to.......... Two programable lanes on one range and it also has more Steel than you can shake a stick at.

Two lanes isn't enough for a class unless four people wanted to pay rude money (like $500/day + range fees).


Happiness is 6 Roger's bays, a case of 9mm, and an afternoon to kill.

Happiness is being able to say, "Yeah, I'll go to the pistol-forum.com Rogers class" at the drop of hat just because you want to. :p

TD3 is in the bag. Today our group of 10 shook out at 3 Advanced, 3 Intermediate, and 4 Basic.

The day began with some discussion about the hows and whys of the Rogers's techniques. This was sparked by some of the instructors reading comments right here on pistol-forum.com. It was a good discussion that gave students a chance to ask questions and talk about different approaches to various shooting tasks.

Another point that was clarified -- and a mistake I'd made previously in one of my posts -- is that the test was not developed around an open range holster but rather a legitimate police/duty retention holster. There was then a pretty interesting discussion about how aiwb from concealment does or doesn't have a disadvantage on the test compared to such a holster.

During the day I pointed out to a couple of the instructors that there was a discrepancy on lane 1 (where I am) that could result in students losing an ability to make up misses on one target. While it was made very clear that I was the only person in the history of the school that whined about it, nonetheless the instructors took a minute and shifted the steel plate in front of the target to rectify the problem. So first, major kudos to the folks at Rogers for responding to what they thought was a picayune gamer-whiner problem. Second, to every shooter who ever tests from lane 1 ever again, you owe me thanks every time you score a point for a make-up shot on target 2 after pinging the hostage target. :cool:

The group asked last night if we could possibly get in a little more shooting because we're burning through the normal curriculum so fast. So today, the Rogers cadre accommodated us by setting up what they call the "Beast of the Earth" drill. It's 60-something non stop target engagements. It was probably less than two minutes of extra class time, but everyone burned through 50-100 rounds and had an absolute blast.

Spirits in the class seem pretty high and everyone is looking forward to tomorrow, which is double test day (shot in the AM and at the end of the day). The title of class champion is very much up for grabs with just 17 points separating the three Advanced shooters, while quite a few of the Basic & Intermediate students are just a couple points away from getting bumped up to the next level.

[HeadHunter]

Congratulations to all of you. I will see you tomorrow.

[ToddG]

Congratulations to all of you. I will see you tomorrow.

We will never forgive you if you fail to shoot the test with a pocket .22. :cool:

[GJM]

I have been flying aircraft back and forth from MT to Alaska the last few days, and am so envious of the action down at RSS, I even went to IHop yesterday and ate the same breakfast I have each morning in Ellijay. I just wish we could have have a web cam installed so we all could watch the school test each day.

[ToddG]

I even went to IHop yesterday and ate the same breakfast I have each morning in Ellijay. I just wish we could have have a web cam installed so we all could watch the school test each day.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0801/creepy-creepy-demotivational-poster-1201553802.jpg

[Prdator]

Two lanes isn't enough for a class unless four people wanted to pay rude money (like $500/day + range fees).

Yea your probaly right, I guess I was thiking we could have two or four guys running the reactive and then another group running the other steel and paper on the three other ranges. I think once you see the ragne you'll get a better idea of what I was thinking. ( dont know if it will work though)

Has there been any talk of another "Rodgers" P-F class next year?????

Yall have fun down there!!!!!!!!

[JAD]

Don't hate us because we're beautiful. I am also completely Smuckers over the class. When the boy's a bit older, i guess...

[ToddG]

On Monday, we started the class with 1 Advanced, 4 Intermediate, and 5 Basic.

On Friday, the Rogers staff handed out pins for 4 Advanced and 6 Intermediate. Every student improved over the course of the week with an average of 16 points gained between Monday and the week's best run.

It was a lot of fun to spend the week with such a great group of shooters. I'm sure others will be sharing their more in-depth thoughts on the class.

[Chris Rhines]

Everybody passed as Intermediate or better? Wow. How common is that?

-C

[Jason F]

On Monday, we started the class with 1 Advanced, 4 Intermediate, and 5 Basic.

On Friday, the Rogers staff handed out pins for 4 Advanced and 6 Intermediate. Every student improved over the course of the week with an average of 16 points gained between Monday and the week's best run.

WOW!!! That's awesome... way to go guys!

[ToddG]

Random thoughts on the difficulty of the different stages of the Rogers test...

This is based on the results for the top three shooters in the class, who scored Advanced ratings 16 out of 18 total attempts. The number of times (out of 18) that a particular test was shot clean by these three:

1 -- 13 times
2 -- 8 times
3 -- 14 times
4 -- 18 times
5 -- 9 times
6 -- 2 times
7 -- 7 times
8 -- 3 times
9 -- 8 times

Test Six is, I think, the only time when you have x-number of bullets to hit x-number of targets and if you miss, they disappear before you can reload and make them up. It doesn't surprise me that this was the hardest to clean.

Text Eight is the WHO blast drill, the single longest course of fire in the entire event. With 23 possible shots and one (or two) WHO reloads, it's very hard to keep everything together for 30 seconds without making a single mistake.

In contrast, Test Four begins with failure drills to two targets (2 to a giant steel plate and one to the head, at ~7yd and ~8yd). This played to our strengths because we were all able to engage and double the big steel chest plate much faster than the time allotted (1.75s I think). There is also a pretty generous reload pause (2.5s?) and the first two head plates stay up during the reload. So even if you miss one of the heads on the first part of the string, you can reload and make it up with tons of time left over to hit the remaining three plates at the wall. It was easy enough 2H that all three of us cleaned it every single time. But Test Seven is the same drill WHO, and combined we cleaned it less than half the time. :(

[Vinh]

Thanks to Todd for organizing the class!

I went to Georgia with the sole objective of earning an advanced rating from 100% legit concealment (AIWB under polo shirt). For me, this kind of expenditure was a once in a lifetime thing, so I knew I only had one shot to make something happen.

Two weeks prior to the class, both of my P30s began behaving badly. My diagnosis was that I had suddenly become a limpwrister. I made the drive down simply hoping for the best.

Sunday night:
Bill Rogers gave a lecture, and when he started talking numbers, I knew I was in for a rough ride. My FAST data tells me I have a 2 second draw and .36 splits, so I suspected I would have trouble keeping up.

Monday:
Shooting from the extended ready was new to me, and it took a while for me to adjust to the speed required. From the holster, I was simply too slow. The school requires students to start with their hands in the prayer position, which I adherred to the entire week, but it made my right-hand draw glacially slow. I scored a 95 with one stoppage during the test. I didn't think much of the stoppage at the time.

Tuesday:
I struggled with the speed requirements. I briefly considered switching to open carry late in the week if things got really desperate, but ultimately decided to accept my fate from concealment. I scored a 96 with another stoppage during the test. Now I was concerned, and I cleaned my guns.

Wednesday:
My speed and accuracy slowly improved. I scored a 105 with a hard stoppage that required switching to the secondary P30 to finish the test. At this point the hypothesis was that the chamber design of the P30 and the residue of the special ammo gums up the chamber and results in failure to extract. I inferred that my gun/ammo combination was only good for half a day, so my plan for the next day was to switch guns at lunch. I cleaned the guns again.

Thursday:
I scored a 115 in the AM and finally achieved my objective. I had a stoppage during a drill immediately after the test, so I switched guns at lunch as planned. With the pressure off, I relaxed and shot a 106 in the PM. While cleaning the guns that night, I began to wonder if the 115 was simply luck. I decided that I had to try to shoot advanced again to prove to myself that it wasn't a fluke.

Friday:
With the pressure back on, I scored a 113. I could go home with no regrets.

Definitely a unique, fun experience. It was great meeting everyone. Props to Mario for shooting from concealment and shaving his head. Congrats to JV for shooting so spectacularly. Thanks to Todd's friend for dropping some knowledge on the nuances of the subject matter.

Since this post has filled my internet posting quota for the next five years, that's all, folks!

[JHC]

Any gear - esp trigger observations that jump out? There was much talk about light LEMs in this course yes?

Any insights from the engineering mind of Bill Rogers about the Gen 4 Glocks challenges over the past couple of years?

Any new insights about "flip and press"?

Did those who are press out shooters change and try his method for the school?

Thanks

[JV_]

Overall I had a great time. I tried some new techniques and have new things to consider.

The Rogers flashlight method enabled me to get better hits than the jaw index, but my SureFire tore up the skin in between my fingers - and my finger rests on the Sig mag button. I need to do a lot more flashlight work to see what will work best.

I don't practice WHO/SHO stuff that often, but I had fun working on it this week. I will integrate WHO/SHO into all of my range sessions. Watching Kyle, Adam and Ronnie demo some of those drills was great; they have fantastic WHO/SHO followup shot speed and accuracy. I would like to get a lot better.

I don't have much to add over what the others have posted, except that I have more things to ponder and need to branch out my training to include tactics - which is normally a topic of very little interest.

For those of you like Todd, Vinh, Mario, Chris, and anyone else that shot from concealment - great job! I admire your commitment. I was too concerned with my score to intentionally handicap myself. I also wanted to thank the two Todds for their tips and tricks, it certainly helped me.


Any gear - esp trigger observations that jump out?No.


Any new insights about "flip and press"?No. Bill said the goal is to not come off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, and resetting in recoil was an acceptable alternative.


Did those who are press out shooters change and try his method for the school?I used their method of working the trigger ASAP with the extended confirmed ready position. I used the press-out with everything else, especially with the SHO draw. I've never worked from that position before and was there to try new methods and techniques. I prefer pressing out and working the trigger when I can see my sights are on target, and I acknowledge that working the trigger only when on target is slower from that position.

[YVK]

Since this post has filled my internet posting quota for the next five years, that's all, folks!

No-no, can't do, not until we learn about the top secret SHO draw..

Congratulations on advanced score, way to come through knowing that this was likely first and last trip to Rogers. As a fellow P30 shooter, it gives me hope that advanced is doable with LEM. Bummer on malfunctions though. Anybody knows what exact ammo Rogers uses/provides for his students?

[GJM]

RSS requires frangible or TMJ ammo. School ammo is 147 Blazer TMJ, but you can bring what you want, as long as it is frangible or TMJ. In March, I shot Lawman 124 TMJ.

To my knowledge, this is the first Advanced shot with a LEM HK.

[JV_]

Anybody knows what exact ammo Rogers uses/provides for his students?IIRC - Vinh was shooting 124gr Blazer CleanFire TMJ

[GJM]

1) Wonder if the issue was the Blazer case, as the Lawman 124 TMJ is likely an identical bullet, with a brass case?

2) On the Rogers flashlight technique, I found the Surefire Polymer Z light with the ring worked well, although it is large for EDC. On a smaller light, the Quark did not work for me, as the design of the tail cap made it hard to reliably activate the light. I have a two cell Streamlight, the same size as the Quark, that once fitted with a large rubber band works great, and is now my EDC. While I prefer the WML Surefire, I have the Streamlight with me daily, and feel confident with its use, after working this on the Rogers range.

[EmanP]

Sounds like we all missed a great class. I too would like to see a video of the WHO draw.

[LOKNLOD]

No-no, can't do, not until we learn about the top secret SHO draw..


Yeah, this!

[MDS]

So doing this class with such a great group of shooters was awesome. I'm a big believer in participating with folks that are better than you, if you want to get better yourself. Just listening to folks discuss things was awesome, on break or during chow. At the same time, my results on the range forced me to really focus on the relatively basic level of fundamentals that I'm able to muster: front sight, trigger press. Because of the tight timeframes at RSS, this is the first time I've had to steer the sights and work the trigger at the same time. It felt like learning to drive stick - all my various body parts know how to do each thing individually, but it takes some practice to be able to coordinate them together. This was the big epiphany for me from RSS, and I don't think I'll have a range trip in the near future that doesn't include some conscious practice of doing both at once.

If there was something I would add or change, it's that there wasn't any SOM to speak of, and the night-shoot was just enough to confirm that I don't even know what I don't know when it comes to low-light stuff. But it was all educational and I came away with more exposure than I had going in.

So, yeah, RSS was the most intense gun-related experience I've ever had. Equal parts sublime exhilaration and soul-crushing frustration, but somehow by the end of the week those steel plates looked a little bigger than they did on Monday, and the times felt a little more realistic. And really, I mean, they're big old 8" plates at 7-25 yards. It wasn't as accuracy-focused as some of the drills I often run. But those timeframes add a whole new dimension. I've got a lot of new-found confidence in the kind of shooting that might be necessary in real life, and more importantly, I've got a lot of ideas on how to continue to improve at that kind of shooting.

And the shooting school itself is only half the reason why this trip was so great. I got lucky to be able to spend most of my time shooting with Vinh. He doesn't say much, but when he speaks it makes a lot of sense. I'll be changing a few key things in my shooting thanks to his input. I also spent some time on the same lane with Grant, who also did awesome in spite of a new battle scar, as well as with the retired SEAL who was taking the class with us. I learned a lot from watching and talking to each of them, as well as watching others on the line when I wasn't shooting: the Todds, JV, Mick, and the rest.

Thanks to TLG for setting this up and handling the ammo logistics and stuff. I don't know what my shooting schedule will be like, but I can definitely see myself doing RSS again in the next year or three.

[ToddG]

I finally got around to pulling some photos off my camera from the class:

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/rogers-1.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/rogers-2.jpg