Getting people to help at matches. [Archive]

Shokr21

05-08-2012, 12:29 PM

Never had an issue with this at the clubs I shoot at.

A suggestion I've read several times is to call out the jobs
shooter, on deck, in the hole, paster 1, paster 2, paster 3, steel reset 1,2, etc

Gives people enough time to finalize their plan. Gives the most recent shooter time to reset. Keeps everyone involved and accountable. Ensures 2 people aren't doing all the work.

I have no issue with saying "Hey man you gonna grab some pasters or is this an ice cream social?"

voodoo_man

05-08-2012, 01:25 PM

"The faster we clear a stage the faster you get to shoot and the faster you get to shoot the faster you get to eat."

Usually works.

jetfire

05-08-2012, 01:29 PM

Two weekends back we had our second largest match of the year. It was decided that if 2 SO's complained about a shooter not assisting they would receive an FTDR? Solves the problem.

That's pretty rough. Usually the mockery of your peers is enough motivation.

NEPAKevin

05-08-2012, 02:11 PM

Asking usually works. Sometimes at the match briefing, I mention to the new shooters that they are welcome to partake of the "privilege" of helping to reset but not to tape targets before they are scored. About the only time this did not work was with the 3-gun matches we had so I stopped holding them.

BigT

05-08-2012, 02:12 PM

That's pretty rough. Usually the mockery of your peers is enough motivation.

Worked well enough that no one got a second warning. Result ,great sucess :)

Sadly some details dont mock ,half of the guys just end up doing all the work while the rest sit on their camp chairs ( on which I must agree with a mate of mine on, he's of the opinion that camp chairs should be banned from IDPA)

ToddG

05-08-2012, 03:17 PM

I'm with the "tell them they have to help" crowd. Reminding folks in an annoyed voice that they're being lazy blankety-blanks works well in my experience. Someone who consistently refuses to help simply because he thinks he's too important would get DQd and told not to come back.

I've had this happen in classes a few times. Usually, just telling someone "hey, go help" is enough. Once I had someone who basically let me know he was too cool to pick up brass, to which I replied that made him too cool to receive a graduation certificate. He was pissed, but he helped pick up brass...

jetfire

05-08-2012, 04:02 PM

theblacknight

05-08-2012, 04:06 PM

My club is pretty tight on stage reset.

The pasters follow the RO and paste behind his verbal scoring. Steel gets reset/painted right away as it's pretty obvious if you missed one. Each squad's reloader guys will agree on what caliber who reloads and they p/u what they want to take home,winner gets the spoils. If I'm running the timer,scoring/batting order, I call out dudes on deck etc etc as soon as I get the score down. If not I reset far steel and p/u last dudes mags as 50% usually go into "why did i do that" mode as soon as they holster.

At the ipsc shoots, holding the grill hostage till the range is clear works pretty well.

If I was a RO and had a bad apple, I would prob quad them with the 1sttimer squad no matter skill and keep him till whenever is they get done.

ToddG

05-08-2012, 04:14 PM

If I was a RO and had a bad apple, I would prob quad them with the 1sttimer squad no matter skill and keep him till whenever is they get done.

LIKE

JodyH

05-08-2012, 06:04 PM

Invite my wife to be scorekeeper.
She cracks the whip when it comes time to tape and reset.

LHS

05-09-2012, 01:41 AM

Nephrology

05-09-2012, 06:36 AM

At my local club we had to (for a variety of reasons, beyond just non-participation) limit our matches to 20 shooters + range staff (MD, RO, Scorekeeper, etc). this helped a LOT because it meant those who were motivated enough to sign up quickly for the matches are usually motivated to help out.

And yes, generally asking and doing so in a very loud, clear and non-negotiable tone helps quite a bit.

VolGrad

05-09-2012, 06:52 AM

Don't be afraid to call people out during the day. Usually at the start of the match everyone's really good about taping and resetting targets, but as the day drags on, people start talking or doing other things.

Yup. Saw that this past weekend (IDPA). One guy on our squad was a USPSA ninja of some variety. He started out on the clipboard but that duty was quickly diverted to others because he kept yelling (but imagine it in an English accent), "I'm not clairvoyant. You have to yell them out. I can't read your bloddy minds." The reality was he wasn't paying attention. The rest of the squad ALL heard every single score called out. I guess he felt you shouldn't yell out the score until he was ready to hear it. He was getting pissed as was everyone else. Anyway, he liked to talk and smoke more than he liked to paste and it was noticed by all.

Call these guys out. Shame them into pasting and helping score.

The core of our squad is pretty much the same guys each match with a few extra randoms to fill it out. We are known to move fast and generally catch up to the squad in front of us at each and every stage.

I think the thing that keeps us moving isn't just not dicking around while shooting but being organized and quick with scoring and pasting. We work as a team and generally sort of work pasting the targets and resetting targets in zones. I know I generally pick a couple of targets that are grouped close together and always go straight there. I have the targets scored, hands/fingers held up for the scorer, and pasters ready to go asap. The other guys all do the same thing. We don't play around. We just want to get back to shooting.

Leozinho

05-09-2012, 10:10 AM

I'm going to start hiring day laborers from in front of Home Depot to do all my taping/resetting for me. "Hey Caleb, who's that?" "Oh, that's just Paco, he's resetting steel and taping targets for me. Cost me 2 bucks an hour."

Gun Nuts Media, creating jobs!

You laugh, but having (minimally) paid laborers to reset and paste is common in South America. And I'm told that some of the big USPSA matches in Florida that draw a lot of foreign shooters have a tough time getting them to paste because they don't do that stuff at home.

jetfire

05-09-2012, 10:46 AM

You laugh, but having (minimally) paid laborers to reset and paste is common in South America. And I'm told that some of the big USPSA matches in Florida that draw a lot of foreign shooters have a tough time getting them to paste because they don't do that stuff at home.

Actually, that's exactly what brought that mind. I met a dude at SHOT from S. Africa and we chatted for a bit about the difference between matches here and there, and when I mentioned that they had low paid laborers to reset targets, I shot coffee out my nose.

BigT

05-09-2012, 10:55 AM

Actually, that's exactly what brought that mind. I met a dude at SHOT from S. Africa and we chatted for a bit about the difference between matches here and there, and when I mentioned that they had low paid laborers to reset targets, I shot coffee out my nose.

Thats a very rare event here dude. Sadly.

NEPAKevin

05-09-2012, 11:41 AM

I'm going to start hiring day laborers from in front of Home Depot to do all my taping/resetting for me.

Just pasting and resetting? The rest of the time, he could be fetching lattes, making snacks, setting up shade, ... the possibilities are endless! The best part is that if you call him a personal assistant or subcontractor, and it would (probably) be legal to pay salary and use it as a business deduction.

"Hey Caleb, who's that?" "Oh, that's just Paco, he's resetting steel and taping targets for me.

http://users.telenet.be/CHiPS/Zorro/GayBlade/Gayblade20.jpg

:)

jetfire

05-09-2012, 12:18 PM

This is seriously the best idea I've ever had.

EMC

05-09-2012, 02:14 PM

This is seriously the best idea I've ever had.

Maybe he could be a gun caddy for 3 gun too. "What do you think, should I be using the 20" with optic for this stage, or the midlength with RDS?". "Sir, looking at the layout of the targets, I recommend the midlength."

joshs

05-09-2012, 02:18 PM

Let's try to get back to the topic of getting people to help at matches.

NEPAKevin

05-09-2012, 02:41 PM

Another problem I have seen at major matches are the tools who only tape to air paste the stage and then don't do squat after they shoot. Psychological warfare works well on those who already have narcissistic tendencies and electronic hearing protection.

EMC

05-09-2012, 02:43 PM

joshs

05-09-2012, 02:48 PM

What about stage set up and take down? The local matches here rely on volunteer help for that part as well. If you end up on the slow squad you're screwed at the at the end of the match with target take down. That slow squad also tends to have the highest level of mid-match attrition so you end up with about 4 people on the last stage doing everything.

Make people tear down the last stage their squad shoots. Make all of the squads end on a different stage, then all the stages should get torn down as the squads finish the match.

VolGrad

05-09-2012, 03:43 PM

Make people tear down the last stage their squad shoots. Make all of the squads end on a different stage, then all the stages should get torn down as the squads finish the match.

Same at our club. During the pre-shoot briefing everyone is reminded they will break down the stage they finish on and reminded it's everyone's job to paste.

Serenity

05-14-2012, 09:09 PM

Our RO's say "pickers and painters" after calling the range clear and we all hop to.

Lomshek

05-14-2012, 10:33 PM

I'm the match director and usually run one of the squads.

As soon as we squad I hand each of my shooters a strip of about 20 pasters and tell them that everyone pastes and resets except the last (loading mags), current (watching scoring) and next (air gunning) shooter.

If someone is slacking I hand them a strip and point out the target array I want them to paste with a polite reminder that they have to help so we can be done sooner.

rob_s

05-15-2012, 04:57 AM

This topic comes up frequently within clubs, whether within the membership, at the SO level, or the BOD level. The reality is that it ebbs and flows but it remains pretty constant. Generally speaking, however, it does lie with the individual SO/RO (or better yet the scorekeeper) to bust their balls to a certain extent. Same thing goes for setup and tear-down. I ran my own carbine match for 7 years and the level of complexity at next month's match was based wholly on how many people stuck around to help tear down this month. If I'm going to have to tear down with one other guy then I'd be a moron to set up some elaborate and prop-heavy stages.

But the pasting issue in particular requires nothing more than a little bit of balls. I see SO/ROs that just holler at the whole squad, and that's not going to cut it. If people really aren't pasting then you have to call them out individually. Be careful that you're really being objective though. I was at a match where squads were 20 guys and an RO walked up to me and handed me a strip of pasters and told me to go paste. I'll get busy pasting as soon as all your buddies paste, how's that? If the culture of your club is that your "rock stars" don't paste, don't expect me to do it either.

Remember the types of incentives (and therefore dis-incentives):

financial
social
moral

Most guys are doing it because of #3. Some may require a little pressure relative to #2. IME most clubs that try to tie it to #1 fail miserably.

raks

05-16-2012, 01:42 PM

... the level of complexity at next month's match was based wholly on how many people stuck around to help tear down this month.

As a frequent IDPA match director this is exactly my approach to set up/tear down. We also give out modest door prizes at every match, the draw is done after tear down is complete and you have to be present to win. Sometimes the set up crew will get an extra ticket as a thank you.

Shaming lazy pasters works, I also try to remind everyone in the match briefing that everyone who shoots is expected to work too.

LHS

05-20-2012, 01:48 PM

As a frequent IDPA match director this is exactly my approach to set up/tear down. We also give out modest door prizes at every match, the draw is done after tear down is complete and you have to be present to win. Sometimes the set up crew will get an extra ticket as a thank you.

Shaming lazy pasters works, I also try to remind everyone in the match briefing that everyone who shoots is expected to work too.

I shot my first match in about five years today. It was an 'unaffiliated' USPSA match, so I got some odd looks for shooting it with a Beretta from an IWB rig under a buttoned-up Hawaiian shirt, but I did well enough. One thing I noticed was that everyone helped paste, score, reset steel, police brass, etc. I stuck around and helped tear down, and made out like a bandit on gently used USPSA cardboard that they were just going to toss in the trash barrel.

ummm

05-21-2012, 11:05 AM

Just an observation from a n00b -- taping targets would seem to be at odds with maximum preparation for your match.

Imagine some hard-core gamer, very into his match, trying his best to game every tenth off his time. He's walking the stage as much as possible, refining his plan, mentally shooting the stage, -- all those things to maximize your results.

Taking time away from that to tape takes time away from your preparation.

That's why I like Caleb's idea. I think every match should up their match fees enough to pay for sufficient tapers / resetters, so that it all gets done, and there's no burden on RO/SO types to crack whips, and people who are spending their time / money to play a game can play it to the best of their abilities, free from unrelated concerns.

Alternatively, increase match fees for non-tapers, and have self-identified tapers shoot for free. Gamers can pay and not tape, free from guilt, while those on a budget can reap the rewards.

ToddG

05-21-2012, 01:21 PM

Imagine some hard-core gamer, very into his match, trying his best to game every tenth off his time. He's walking the stage as much as possible, refining his plan, mentally shooting the stage, -- all those things to maximize your results.

You're describing the guy who wants to be in the top 1% but is really probably barely in the top 25%. He's convinced himself that going through the motions is more important than actually having a plan. He is easily distracted. And, more likely than not, he is using his "mental game" as an excuse not to tape, because he's got it in his head that taping is something for the serfs.

I was on a squad once with: Dave Sevigny, Ernest Langdon, Rob Haught, Dave Harrington, and Scott Warren. Guess who taped? Everyone. Sevigny and Warren in particular are big on the visualization/prep thing and it wouldn't surprise me if they both took a break from taping right before their turn each time. But otherwise, everyone helps, everyone works, it gets done faster, and everyone is happy.

There's also a certain PR/psych aspect to it. Shooters who do more than their share helping to run a stage get noticed by the ROs and, purposefully or not, tend to get more favorable calls. Or put another way, the guys who act full of themselves and are "too good" to pull their weight on the menial stuff get noticed and tend to draw far closer scrutiny by the ROs.

But basically, if you think you're too good to help, odds are you're not that good.

LOKNLOD

05-21-2012, 01:50 PM

I was on a squad once with: Dave Sevigny, Ernest Langdon, Rob Haught, Dave Harrington, and Scott Warren. Guess who taped? Everyone. Sevigny and Warren in particular are big on the visualization/prep thing and it wouldn't surprise me if they both took a break from taping right before their turn each time. But otherwise, everyone helps, everyone works, it gets done faster, and everyone is happy.

All the matches I've been too, the guy "on deck" is allowed to skip taping/reset so he can get ready for his run, and the guy who just shot is usually busy listening to his scores and gathering mags and such. Otherwise everyone helps. Of course if the squads are only a few people that may not be as easy; it's usually been 9 to 11 people per squad when I've shot the local match.

Do squad members usually run the timer and scoresheet for one another at most matches, or are there dedicated people for each stage?

Serenity

05-21-2012, 10:52 PM

Ours are a little smaller and there are usually enough ROs there for an RO to be doing the timing and one to be recording/observing. Person on deck is preparing, person who just shot is gathering mags, collecting brass from those that are picking. A couple of people grab a can of paint or some tape and reset and everyone finishes at about the same time.

Lomshek

05-22-2012, 12:05 AM

Since you self described as a n00b please don't take this as a beat down but your ideas don't work in reality.

Just an observation from a n00b -- taping targets would seem to be at odds with maximum preparation for your match. Todd's right that the guy who is obsessed with "maximum preparation" is usually struggling to hit the top 25% (and needs to relax).

Taking time away from that to tape takes time away from your preparation. Not being allowed to shoot the next month will give that shooter lots of prep time.

That's why I like Caleb's idea. I think every match should up their match fees enough to pay for sufficient tapers / resetters, so that it all gets done, and there's no burden on RO/SO types to crack whips, and people who are spending their time / money to play a game can play it to the best of their abilities, free from unrelated concerns. Is this a serious idea or a spoof? I run a small match of 30 shooters max split into three squads shooting 5 stages. To re-set a stage even half way fast requires 5 workers plus CRO & RO. A match lasts about 3 hours. I would need to find 15 paster slaves willing to work 3 hours in the weather on a weekend. If I only paid them $5/hour (sure...on the weekend, in the heat or cold) that comes out to $235 cash so I would need to double my match fee to $30 per shooter. Not even the illegals will work for that.

Alternatively, increase match fees for non-tapers, and have self-identified tapers shoot for free. Gamers can pay and not tape, free from guilt, while those on a budget can reap the rewards. That won't end well.

rob_s

05-22-2012, 04:03 AM

I have yet to see the financial incentive plans work. Read Freakonomics for more.

Essentially what everyone thinks is that they bought the right not to work, and you can't up the rate enough to offset that without chasing people away.

NEPAKevin

05-22-2012, 10:07 AM

Alternatively, increase match fees for non-tapers, and have self-identified tapers shoot for free. Gamers can pay and not tape, free from guilt, while those on a budget can reap the rewards. That won't end well.

While we do have a wide demographic of shooters at our matches, if I had to guess, probably the majority tend to be middle to senior level professionals in the technology fields and not too many, if any, illegal-immigrant migrant workers. Which would mean they would probably desire significantly more than sub-minimum wage to encourage them to give up their expendable leisure time in deference to lazy, arrogant, NTMFs. I agree, there's no happy ending to that fairy tale.

David Armstrong

05-22-2012, 11:40 AM

Back when I had a range and used to put on matches, whenever we were planning a big match I'd pass the word to some local high school and college kids that if they would come and work the match they could have an hour of range access after the match, bring your own guns and ammo or use mine and some of the other competitors. Don't know how efffective it would be for a regular club match but it worked out great for big matches. Lots of these kids will work there tails off for free burgers and a chance to do some shooting, plus it helped introduce the game to some.

ggruber

06-12-2012, 03:54 PM

We always did it with a combination of expectations (the two guys on deck were mandatory tapers/resetters) and peer pressure (the old hands would step up and go tape whatever stage they were near, and the younger guys would join in to avoid looking lazy). Seemed to work fine, but it did require a core of dedicated people and a culture of respect.

we never ask the guy on deck to tape / reset. We routinely shoot in 110+ degrees and have plenty of water and shelter from the sun. Everyone rotates from the shade to help out. All it takes is 'would you please help tape if you are not shooting' to get guys to participate.

BWT

07-04-2012, 05:06 PM

You're describing the guy who wants to be in the top 1% but is really probably barely in the top 25%. He's convinced himself that going through the motions is more important than actually having a plan. He is easily distracted. And, more likely than not, he is using his "mental game" as an excuse not to tape, because he's got it in his head that taping is something for the serfs.

I was on a squad once with: Dave Sevigny, Ernest Langdon, Rob Haught, Dave Harrington, and Scott Warren. Guess who taped? Everyone. Sevigny and Warren in particular are big on the visualization/prep thing and it wouldn't surprise me if they both took a break from taping right before their turn each time. But otherwise, everyone helps, everyone works, it gets done faster, and everyone is happy.

There's also a certain PR/psych aspect to it. Shooters who do more than their share helping to run a stage get noticed by the ROs and, purposefully or not, tend to get more favorable calls. Or put another way, the guys who act full of themselves and are "too good" to pull their weight on the menial stuff get noticed and tend to draw far closer scrutiny by the ROs.

But basically, if you think you're too good to help, odds are you're not that good.

Also, talking about visualizing the stage, walking the stage to tape the targets still means you're Walking the Stage. If I want to game how that thought process goes out on how I'm going to run a stage, I may tape part of a stage, like the right half and then tape the left side if it's a very complex, and just kind of walk through it, it gives me a chance to survey it, see what the other shooter's did hit, or where they struggled, and maybe tweak something.

As a side note, there are a few times I don't tape targets is, if I'm the next shooter to go, because that's better than me taping and then them having to wait for me to grab my gun, and magazines, etc. Two, after I've finished the course of fire and I go back to reload my magazines, so I'm ready to go when we go to the next stage. Both of those mean in a squad of like (in the carbine match I shoot) 10-12, I don't help paste for two runs really, when I'm the next to go, and when I've finished and I'm picking up my magazines off the stage and loading magazines after completing.

Alaskapopo

09-22-2012, 09:47 PM

I'd like to hear suggestions from folks about increasing the number of people who tape, brass and set steel at matches. Both IDPA and USPSA clubs I frequent have a huge problem with this to the point that it's significantly slowing matches

If its my match that I am hosting I just tell people as nicely as possible that they all need to be helping. That usually works. People just get busy BSing and forget that stuff needs to be done.
Pat