USPSA Division Equipment Rules (Guns)

[Hot Cereal]

I'm thinking of playing gun games again and I never really paid attention to the equipment rules. I want to shoot an APX Centurion, which I don't see on the approved list. I want to use a weapon light since I'm cheap, holsters are expensive and I prefer to carry with one. As far as I can tell a functioning light puts me in open and a non-functioning light puts me in limited. Is this correct or am I sol with a wml? Does taking the battery out make the light "non-functioning"? Thanks.

[Lon]

The approved list only matters if you’re shooting one of the production divisions. Open and Ltd don’t matter. A working light absolutely puts you in open. I don’t know how much modification you need to do to the light to make it a “weight” and not a light. Brian Enon Forums is the unofficial USPSA forum. Lots of good info there.

[Lon]

According to this thread you need to take the bulbs and battery out.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/196886-using-a-weaponlight-as-a-frame-weight-for-limited/page/2/

[olstyn]

Is it really so much hassle to mount and unmount a light that you can't just take it off for matches and put it back on afterward? (No snark intended - I'm genuinely curious, as I don't own any WMLs, but I had the impression that mounting and unmounting them was a fairly quick process.)

[spinmove_]

Is it really so much hassle to mount and unmount a light that you can't just take it off for matches and put it back on afterward? (No snark intended - I'm genuinely curious, as I don't own any WMLs, but I had the impression that mounting and unmounting them was a fairly quick process.)

Then he would have to buy another holster, which is something he didn’t want to do.

If he wanted to stay in limited, it would be cheaper to buy a second holster instead of buying another light, gut it, and weight it. If he didn’t care, he could just go to Open.

Personally I see the benefit in having a specific gaming rig (belt, holster, mag pouches, etc.) as it’s a more apples to apples comparison to whomever you’re competing against.

[Hot Cereal]

After seeing the APX Centurion isn’t on the stupid production list I figured since I’m in limited anyways why not just use the WML. Removing the bulb and batteries is stupid. WMLs have become so common they should at least be allowed in limited and perhaps production. Someone would be quick to the scene with replicas that are made out of resin (like a blue gun, sort of like these: https://newbreedtactical.com/product/split-light-molding-drones/. In fact, it’s says they mount. I wonder if they’d stay put during recoil. Hmmm?

[Lon]

If you don’t care about advancing up the classification ladder, just shoot what you carry and shoot in open. Years before Carry Optics was a thing I was shooting a 226/RMR combo in open shooting minor. Or a duty rig shooting limited minor with my duty gun. I had fun and that was what mattered to me. Plus it was a challenge. I tried to stay within 3-4 seconds of the good open shooters on each stage with my 226/RMR. I knew I was at a huge disadvantage with my setup, but it was my work gun and I didn’t care.

To an extent, I still shoot at a disadvantage. I mostly shoot CO with my carry gun. Which had always been a G19/229/P07 sized pistol against guys shooting G34s, CZ Shadows, Q5s or whatever. I’d shoot from AIWB if they’d let me.

Now that I’m switching over to Glocks I may buy a true game gun, but still plan on shooting a lot with my duty/carry guns.

[Hot Cereal]

If you don’t care about advancing up the classification ladder, just shoot what you carry and shoot in open. Years before Carry Optics was a thing I was shooting a 226/RMR combo in open shooting minor. Or a duty rig shooting limited minor with my duty gun. I had fun and that was what mattered to me. Plus it was a challenge. I tried to stay within 3-4 seconds of the good open shooters on each stage with my 226/RMR. I knew I was at a huge disadvantage with my setup, but it was my work gun and I didn’t care.

To an extent, I still shoot at a disadvantage. I mostly shoot CO with my carry gun. Which had always been a G19/229/P07 sized pistol against guys shooting G34s, CZ Shadows, Q5s or whatever. I’d shoot from AIWB if they’d let me.

Now that I’m switching over to Glocks I may buy a true game gun, but still plan on shooting a lot with my duty/carry guns.
That's about where I am with it. I know I'm at a disadvantage but who cares, it's just for fun. If I did shoot open, can I have the battery in it or do I have to take it out?

[deflave]

That's about where I am with it. I know I'm at a disadvantage but who cares, it's just for fun. If I did shoot open, can I have the battery in it or do I have to take it out?

Yes it can be functional.

About the only thing you can't have in OPEN is full auto.

[Lon]

Deflave is right. Functional is fine. My local club used to let me shoot my SWAT rig back in the day - 228 w/CT laser grips and old school Surefire light/DG switch. I’d kill the lights and shoot no lights w/ my laser and WML. it was an outlaw match and I shot w the Open guys. Lots of fun.

[Alpha Sierra]

I figured since I’m in limited anyways why not just use the WML. Removing the bulb and batteries is stupid. WMLs have become so common they should at least be allowed in limited and perhaps production.

USPSA is not and never will be "tactically" or "defensive" oriented. Not going to happen.

[RJ]

I don’t know much about Berettas, but there appears to be a ‘APX 4.3” 9mm’ on the USPSA Production Gun List. Is that a ‘Centurion? Might be worth asking a NRO or USPSA rep about that.

48816

[Hot Cereal]

Yes it can be functional.

About the only thing you can't have in OPEN is full auto.

Sooo binary triggers are gtg? HA!

[Hot Cereal]

USPSA is not and never will be "tactically" or "defensive" oriented. Not going to happen. We've already seen the crossover with RDS from gun games to serious duty use. I think USPSA could add a division that accommodates that, or allow them in carry optics, since the name of the division implies some vague resemblance of tactical/defensive orientation.


I don’t know much about Berettas, but there appears to be a ‘APX 4.3” 9mm’ on the USPSA Production Gun List. Is that a ‘Centurion? Might be worth asking a NRO or USPSA rep about that.

48816

That is the full size APX. The Centurion and Compact have 3.7 in barrels.

[deflave]

Sooo binary triggers are gtg? HA!

https://uspsa.org/documents/rules/2019_USPSA_Competition_Rules.pdf

[Alpha Sierra]

We've already seen the crossover with RDS from gun games to serious duty use. I think USPSA could add a division that accommodates that, or allow them in carry optics, since the name of the division implies some vague resemblance of tactical/defensive orientation.

IPSC (and by extension it's US region: USPSA) is not a defensive shooting sport. It's a shooting sport with no pretension or connection to tactics or tactical equipment.

[Clusterfrack]

USPSA needs fewer divisions, not more. We already have divisions that only 2 or 3 people shoot (Lim 10, Revo). USPSA is really not about any specific gun. What makes it special is hit factor scoring. Buying a gun that's suited to USPSA is usually among the cheapest parts of the sport.

I just shot a match today, and saw a number of guys (including active LEO) struggling to compete effectively with a Glock 19 and other tactical or CCW oriented guns. Can they do it? Sure, but they would learn a lot more with the right equipment.

Edit: this came out more grumpy than I intended. USPSA is fun, especially when played well. The right equipment helps.

[Alpha Sierra]

I just shot a match today, and saw a number of guys (including active LEO) struggling to compete effectively with a Glock 19 and other tactical or CCW oriented guns.

It's not the guns (for the most part)

This guy was a local shooter but now gone from the area. I think he was AD USAF. He can drive a stock P-10C like he stole it.


https://youtu.be/2OPzsmcorQk

[RJ]

USPSA needs fewer divisions, not more. We already have divisions that only 2 or 3 people shoot (Lim 10, Revo). USPSA is really not about any specific gun. What makes it special is hit factor scoring. Buying a gun that's suited to USPSA is usually among the cheapest parts of the sport.

I just shot a match today, and saw a number of guys (including active LEO) struggling to compete effectively with a Glock 19 and other tactical or CCW oriented guns. Can they do it? Sure, but they would learn a lot more with the right equipment.

Edit: this came out more grumpy than I intended. USPSA is fun, especially when played well. The right equipment helps.

I kinda get what you meant. That poor equipment selection can be made, which would get in the way of performance ‘on the clock’ as it were.

On the other hand, as a lowly D Production shooter with 9 matches lifetime, I would say my match scores are heavily influenced by factors almost completely absent from equipment: mental lapses in stage planning (FTE), hitting No Shoots by mistake, gross incompetence in stage planning (not efficiently managing mag swaps on an unloaded table start). I’ve shot a rental G34, and concluded until I could shoot more Alphas quicker, the $700 for a new Glock would be better invested in training ammo and focused dry practice. So I keep shooting my G19, which to my size M hands is like a G17 to most guys. I don’t think it’s holding me back, really.

But point taken. FWIW you didn’t sound too grumpy to me. :)

[bofe954]

I'm thinking of playing gun games again and I never really paid attention to the equipment rules. I want to shoot an APX Centurion, which I don't see on the approved list. I want to use a weapon light since I'm cheap, holsters are expensive and I prefer to carry with one. As far as I can tell a functioning light puts me in open and a non-functioning light puts me in limited. Is this correct or am I sol with a wml? Does taking the battery out make the light "non-functioning"? Thanks.

If you just shoot local level one matches, there is a good chance no one will care if you shoot production with that set up, as long as you don't have more than 10 rounds in a mag.

On the other hand, if you're a beginner at moving around with a loaded gun and a 180 rule, sometimes it's better to shoot limited or open anyway so you have less opportunities to blow the 180 during a reload. Plus now with practiscore you can look at overall scores and just compare yourself to the production shooters anyway.

[RJ]

If you just shoot local level one matches, there is a good chance no one will care if you shoot production with that set up, as long as you don't have more than 10 rounds in a mag.

On the other hand, if you're a beginner at moving around with a loaded gun and a 180 rule, sometimes it's better to shoot limited or open anyway so you have less opportunities to blow the 180 during a reload. Plus now with practiscore you can look at overall scores and just compare yourself to the production shooters anyway.

This is 100% true at my local matches. Be safe, don’t do dumb stuff, load 10 rounds (11 in first one) and you are gtg.

[deflave]

USPSA needs fewer divisions, not more. We already have divisions that only 2 or 3 people shoot (Lim 10, Revo). USPSA is really not about any specific gun. What makes it special is hit factor scoring. Buying a gun that's suited to USPSA is usually among the cheapest parts of the sport.

I just shot a match today, and saw a number of guys (including active LEO) struggling to compete effectively with a Glock 19 and other tactical or CCW oriented guns. Can they do it? Sure, but they would learn a lot more with the right equipment.

Edit: this came out more grumpy than I intended. USPSA is fun, especially when played well. The right equipment helps.

Kinda silly to imply that only two or three people are shooting Lim10 or revolver.

Also kinda silly to imply Divisions don't make sense.

[olstyn]

Kinda silly to imply that only two or three people are shooting Lim10 or revolver.

At most of my local matches, there are less than 5 people shooting revolver and zero shooting Lim10. The only appeal of Lim10 is if you want a division win that is meaningless or if you're in a ban state.

[Alpha Sierra]

Kinda silly to imply that only two or three people are shooting Lim10 or revolver.

Also kinda silly to imply Divisions don't make sense.


I shot fifteen USPSA level 1 matches in 2019 and three so far this year. There hasn't been a single person shooting Limited 10 or Revolver in any of them.

Last fall I bought a Performance Center 5" 627. It will probably go on sale in a few weeks and whatever I get out of it will likely go into turning my P-09 into another carry optics gun.

[olstyn]

I shot fifteen USPSA level 1 matches in 2019 and three so far this year. There hasn't been a single person shooting Limited 10 or Revolver in any of them.

Higher level matches are the same way. MN Section Championship 2019 had 2 people shooting Revolver and 1 Lim10. 2018 had 1 Revolver and 3 Lim10. 2017 had 2 Revolver and 4 Lim10. (Total match attendance has been a sold out 150+ for basically as long as I've been shooting it.) Those divisions are effectively dead up here.

[Alpha Sierra]

Higher level matches are the same way. MN Section Championship 2019 had 2 people shooting Revolver and 1 Lim10. 2018 had 1 Revolver and 3 Lim10. 2017 had 2 Revolver and 4 Lim10. (Total match attendance has been a sold out 150+ for basically as long as I've been shooting it.) Those divisions are effectively dead up here.

I bet the L10 guys were Canadians

[deflave]

I shot fifteen USPSA level 1 matches in 2019 and three so far this year. There hasn't been a single person shooting Limited 10 or Revolver in any of them.

Last fall I bought a Performance Center 5" 627. It will probably go on sale in a few weeks and whatever I get out of it will likely go into turning my P-09 into another carry optics gun.

Yes. I can say the same for my local matches.

However, it comes as a great surprise to many that the USPSA is the governing body for a sport that spans an entire country.

And while your local club may not be able to take advantage of said Divisions, other locations may.

If anyone thinks an eight shot revolver can go toe-to-toe with a G17 (all things being equal), I'd invite them to take a video of themselves shooting an eight shot revolver for score.

[olstyn]

I bet the L10 guys were Canadians

I recognize at least some of the names in L10 over the last few years as non-Canadian, so I think it's mostly just the odd person who still has a gun and mags from the '94-'04 AWB and decides to shoot it. Good theory, though - we do usually get about one squad worth of guys from up there coming down to shoot with us every year. Given that there are typically less L10 shooters than Canadians, I would *guess* that most of the Canadians are shooting Production.

[BigD]

To the OP:

The "Why doesn't USPSA have a division just for the particular way I like to set up my pistol and holster? Wah!" comes up all the time.

Feel like you should be able to load your mags to 13 rounds? Want to use a AIWB holster? Want to bolt a honking big light on the front and reduce muzzle rise? You can do all of that...in Open. (And some stuff in Limited.)

Just shoot Open. You can compare your score to those of the Production shooters. You weren't going to win anyway, and even if you did win Production at a Level 1 club match, the prize is a steaming hot cup of jack squat.

I seem to recall Steel Challenge used to allow lights.

We can argue they arent perfect, but USPSA is trying to keep Production from being an equipment race. Hence why they don't allow lights

[BigT]

We've already seen the crossover with RDS from gun games to serious duty use. I think USPSA could add a division that accommodates that, or allow them in carry optics, since the name of the division implies some vague resemblance of tactical/defensive orientation.



That is the full size APX. The Centurion and Compact have 3.7 in barrels.


If you truly don't care about the game for its own sake, then you will shoot Open with whatever you have and deal with the results.

If you do actually care then you have to stay within the rules. You don't get to try change for everyone it because you don't get it.

[Alpha Sierra]

And while your local club may not be able to take advantage of said Divisions, other locations may.

I'm not advocating that revo be eliminated. If one person in the country wants to shoot it, have at it. That doesn't change the fact that as a viable way to compete, both it and L10 are dead.

Now L10 needs to be done away with. The people who live in ban states or in countries where mag capacity is restricted don't have (and don't need) Open 10 or Production/Carry Optics 10 to have a game. There's already ways to address compliance.

[Hot Cereal]

To the OP:

The "Why doesn't USPSA have a division just for the particular way I like to set up my pistol and holster? Wah!" comes up all the time.

Feel like you should be able to load your mags to 13 rounds? Want to use a AIWB holster? Want to bolt a honking big light on the front and reduce muzzle rise? You can do all of that...in Open. (And some stuff in Limited.)

Just shoot Open. You can compare your score to those of the Production shooters. You weren't going to win anyway, and even if you did win Production at a Level 1 club match, the prize is a steaming hot cup of jack squat.

I seem to recall Steel Challenge used to allow lights.

We can argue they arent perfect, but USPSA is trying to keep Production from being an equipment race. Hence why they don't allow lights
Man, you guys get testy with differing opinions. Already said I’ll probably just shoot open, but the attitudes of some of the people posting here really suck. Some of you guys come across like assholes.

[spinmove_]

Man, you guys get testy with differing opinions. Already said I’ll probably just shoot open, but the attitudes of some of the people posting here really suck. Some of you guys come across like assholes.

I’m sure they don’t mean to be, but it is a thing that USPSA shooters do hear A LOT, so it gets annoying. And it almost always comes from someone who is new to the sport. The fact that we have like 70 divisions is somewhat of a sore spot for a lot of shooters as there’s some goofyness that happens with trying to make everyone fairly happy.

I get why almost all of the divisions that are in USPSA are there. The only exception in my mind is why PCC hasn’t just been spun off into it’s own thing. I get the allure and how it can be valuable, but it completely muddys the waters in the overall scores.

[BigT]

Man, you guys get testy with differing opinions. Already said I’ll probably just shoot open, but the attitudes of some of the people posting here really suck. Some of you guys come across like assholes.


I mean I am an arsehole, but that's really neither here nor there on the discussion at hand.

Guys who shoot the game hear all the time about how their should be a special division for some dudes specific set up combined with how he doesn't care about results etc. Which he patently does or he would be quietly shooting Open with his dot sighted Shield and not commenting on the need for a new division. It frustrates guys.

Go shoot a match with whatever you have, the guys will almost definitely find a plan for you. You may find less desire to change things once you get into it.

[jetfire]

USPSA needs fewer divisions, not more. We already have divisions that only 2 or 3 people shoot (Lim 10, Revo). USPSA is really not about any specific gun. What makes it special is hit factor scoring. Buying a gun that's suited to USPSA is usually among the cheapest parts of the sport.

I just shot a match today, and saw a number of guys (including active LEO) struggling to compete effectively with a Glock 19 and other tactical or CCW oriented guns. Can they do it? Sure, but they would learn a lot more with the right equipment.

Edit: this came out more grumpy than I intended. USPSA is fun, especially when played well. The right equipment helps.

You leave revolver out of this!

[Clusterfrack]

Man, you guys get testy with differing opinions. Already said I’ll probably just shoot open, but the attitudes of some of the people posting here really suck. Some of you guys come across like assholes.

I think this was a lively discussion, but not over the fault line into asshole territory.

USPSA has undergone a recent series of rule changes and division expansions. As well, we've had some confusion within our governance about whether USPSA is a hobby, an event, or a sport (https://uspsa.org/announcement/288). I am sure you can appreciate how those of us who are committed to competing in USPSA as a sport have some strong feelings about this. When questions like yours come up, it's hard not to think "oh fuck, not this again." Imagine if you were a new soccer player, and wanted to change the rules so you could play your way.

Anyway, I'm happy to continue the discussion, and will try not to come off like an asshole--although my not-an-asshole classification is D.

[Clusterfrack]

Kinda silly to imply that only two or three people are shooting Lim10 or revolver.

Also kinda silly to imply Divisions don't make sense.

I didn't imply either of these things--I stated a fact and my opinion based on the fact. I think it's silly to have divisions where there is little or no competition. I have a lot of respect for Revo shooters--but they can really slow down a match. Here are the numbers from some recent matches:

483 shooters:
Division GM M A B C D U
Limited 7 15 16 39 32 8 4
Limited 10 0 0 0 3 3 1 0
Open 7 20 28 26 19 4 4
Production 4 12 8 19 19 3 6
Revolver 0 1 0 1 2 0 1
Single Stack 1 3 8 11 6 1 0
Carry Optics 3 9 15 26 20 1 13
PCC 7 14 7 8 5 2 11

95 shooters:
Division GM M A B C D U
Limited 0 3 3 7 5 1 9
Open 0 2 3 7 2 1 2
Production 0 1 1 2 3 0 1
Limited 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Revolver 1 0 0 1 2 0 0
Single Stack 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Carry Optics 1 2 2 4 5 2 6
PCC 1 2 2 3 2 0 5


81 shooters:
Division / Class
Division GM M A B C D U
Limited 0 1 2 7 6 0 6
Open 0 2 4 6 2 1 1
Production 0 1 1 2 2 1 4
Limited 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Revolver 0 0 0 1 3 0 0
Single Stack 0 1 0 0 2 0 0
Carry Optics 1 2 2 3 3 1 4
PCC 1 1 2 1 2 0 2

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't know how revolver shooters can "really slow down a match" when there's at most 2 or 3 of them spread throughout 4 - 8 squads in an entire match and their runs take maybe 5 - 10 more seconds longer than the average production shooter.

I guess if they stood around and didn't help paste and reset that may be a thing......

[Clusterfrack]

I don't know how revolver shooters can "really slow down a match" when there's at most 2 or 3 and their runs take maybe 5 - 10 more seconds than the average production shooter.

I guess if they stood around and didn't help paste and reset that may be a thing......

The good ones don't. Our GM Revo shooter is squared away. It's the other ones that take 2-3x the time to shoot, tie up the bay for several more minutes hunting for their moon clips, and don't paste because it takes them a half an hour to reload their clips. Get stuck on a squad with 2 or 3 of these dudes and dudettes, and it starts to feel like they need their own match. But you're right, it's not that big a deal.

e.g. Looking at some recent scores, one Revolver guy took 501.29s to shoot a match that took me 140s in Production.

[deflave]

The good ones don't. Our GM Revo shooter is squared away. It's the other ones that take 2-3x the time to shoot, tie up the bay for several more minutes hunting for their moon clips, and don't paste because it takes them a half an hour to reload their clips. Get stuck on a squad with 2 or 3 of these dudes and dudettes, and it starts to feel like they need their own match. But you're right, it's not that big a deal.

https://media.giphy.com/media/5WXqTFTgO9a7e/giphy.gif

[spinmove_]

The good ones don't. Our GM Revo shooter is squared away. It's the other ones that take 2-3x the time to shoot, tie up the bay for several more minutes hunting for their moon clips, and don't paste because it takes them a half an hour to reload their clips. Get stuck on a squad with 2 or 3 of these dudes and dudettes, and it starts to feel like they need their own match. But you're right, it's not that big a deal.

e.g. Looking at some recent scores, one Revolver guy took 501.29s to shoot a match that took me 140s in Production.

Revo and PCC should just be split off into their own matches. The PCC shooters will get done way faster than the revo shooters and therefore can just paste everything. The revo shooters can then just feel free to take forever, take the time to find all their moon clips, and not have to worry about pasting. And unless you’re Caleb, they’ll all be about the same age anyway.

[RJ]

The good ones don't. Our GM Revo shooter is squared away. It's the other ones that take 2-3x the time to shoot, tie up the bay for several more minutes hunting for their moon clips, and don't paste because it takes them a half an hour to reload their clips. Get stuck on a squad with 2 or 3 of these dudes and dudettes, and it starts to feel like they need their own match. But you're right, it's not that big a deal.

e.g. Looking at some recent scores, one Revolver guy took 501.29s to shoot a match that took me 140s in Production.

Not any worse than the 1911 shooters having malfunction after malfunction. I was on deck behind this dude a few months ago at a local match. BEEEEEP! BANG! Click! Tap Rack rack rack. BANG! Click!




*ducks and runs* :D

[45dotACP]

Not any worse than the 1911 shooters having malfunction after malfunction. I was on deck behind this dude a few months ago at a local match. BEEEEEP! BANG! Click! Tap Rack rack rack. BANG! Click!




*ducks and runs* :D

Well that, and they're all a thousand years old ;)

[RJ]

Well that, and they're all a thousand years old ;)

Hey I’m just kidding of course.

Lotsa guys I shoot with run 1911s. Mostly A or B Shooters. They are pretty nice looking, and very dialed in. This one time was the exception.

[45dotACP]

Hey I’m just kidding of course.

Lotsa guys I shoot with run 1911s. Mostly A or B Shooters. They are pretty nice looking, and very dialed in. This one time was the exception.Haha no worries man, there's only like ten single stack guys to worry about offending anyways [emoji23]

If you really want the internet to hate you then you need to say something bad about Sig 320s

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Medusa]

Revo and PCC should just be split off into their own matches. The PCC shooters will get done way faster than the revo shooters and therefore can just paste everything. The revo shooters can then just feel free to take forever, take the time to find all their moon clips, and not have to worry about pasting. And unless you’re Caleb, they’ll all be about the same age anyway.

i’d be glad to see pcc go. Revo seems like a legit handgun player in a handgun sport. I know a couple of the local revo shooters and they are nice people working hard to play the game best they can, or that’s my experience with them.

as far as resetting I try to pick up slack for older / less mobile shooters regardless of what they shoot. Maybe in future I’ll need that kind of help myself. Gonna do my best not to, but still. What goes around and all that.

[Alpha Sierra]

Don't care if PCC stays or goes. I pay no mind to them in the results since I'm only concerned how I do in division. Pretty much all the locals who shoot them have them debugged and run fine.

[45dotACP]

I am gonna do a hot take here and say that having a PCC, Revo and Lim10 division basically doesn't hurt anyone. Especially now that PCC is squared away.

That said, nobody takes USPSA Revo or PCC seriously. For PCC it's a rifle in a handgun game, and for Revolvers, I feel like the only sport where a wheelgun is an actual reasonable choice is probably IDPA.

Getting through a 32 round field course with speedloaders? Bleh.

One thing I've actually admired about IDPA is that they don't ever really have long stages so you can have like two or three speedloaders and what's in the gun and you're good.

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[Bucky]

Revo and PCC should just be split off into their own matches. The PCC shooters will get done way faster than the revo shooters and therefore can just paste everything. The revo shooters can then just feel free to take forever, take the time to find all their moon clips, and not have to worry about pasting. And unless you’re Caleb, they’ll all be about the same age anyway.

In my experience, it’s the PCC guys that take the longest to run. They may shoot the stage faster, but the load and unload is longer.

[Bucky]

Not any worse than the 1911 shooters having malfunction after malfunction. I was on deck behind this dude a few months ago at a local match. BEEEEEP! BANG! Click! Tap Rack rack rack. BANG! Click!
D

Can’t tell tell you how many times I could say the same thing about GLOCK.

In our area, if you ask if I had to guess if a gun wold run, the first question would not be what kind of gun, but who is running and maintaining it.

[spinmove_]

i’d be glad to see pcc go. Revo seems like a legit handgun player in a handgun sport. I know a couple of the local revo shooters and they are nice people working hard to play the game best they can, or that’s my experience with them.

as far as resetting I try to pick up slack for older / less mobile shooters regardless of what they shoot. Maybe in future I’ll need that kind of help myself. Gonna do my best not to, but still. What goes around and all that.


In my experience, it’s the PCC guys that take the longest to run. They may shoot the stage faster, but the load and unload is longer.

I’m totally and completely joking as to having both of those divisions splitting off. Around my area literally no one is shooting Revo. Almost everyone shooting PCC is Senior to Super Senior status and they do it mostly because arthritis is a thing and that’s mainly come from old age and/or shooting major for so much so many years.

[olstyn]

Can’t tell tell you how many times I could say the same thing about GLOCK.

In our area, if you ask if I had to guess if a gun wold run, the first question would not be what kind of gun, but who is running and maintaining it.

This. People who screw around with the internals and/or run shit ammo can make any gun fail, and people who make sure everything is properly squared away and run good ammo can make almost anything, including 1911s, run reliably.

[Alpha Sierra]

Getting through a 32 round field course with speedloaders? Bleh.

No one who is even moderately serious about USPSA Revolver uses a six gun with speedloaders. They're all using 8 shooters with moonclips.

[deflave]

No one who is even moderately serious about USPSA Revolver uses a six gun with speedloaders. They're all using 8 shooters with moonclips.

I agree.

They're really not reloading much more than the single stack or 10 round groups.

[Jim Watson]

Because of policy not more than eight shots in a target array. Allowing 8 Minor revolvers killed off the sixshooters overnight. Revolver is now like production, single stack, L10, Canada, California; shoot eight and reload on the move to the next setup. You just don't have a makeup, better hit that plate first try.

[rob_s]

Once a new shooter gets over themselves, you eventually realize that USPSA is pretty fantastic with their equipment rules. You can show up with *almost* any gun and belt-mounted holster and mag setup and provided you aren't a danger to yourself or others, you'll get to shoot. You'll be in Open, and you won't win, but you'll shoot.

From there you can decide whether your "real world" and "tactical" needs still matter on a game range, which division you'd like to participate in over the long haul, and whether you want to adjust your equipment to fit said division.

[45dotACP]

No one who is even moderately serious about USPSA Revolver uses a six gun with speedloaders. They're all using 8 shooters with moonclips.True. I did kinda forget about the 8-shot minor guns.

So perhaps I'll amend my statement that IDPA is the only place where you can run a 6 shooter as a reasonable choice.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Bart Carter]

In my experience, it’s the PCC guys that take the longest to run. They may shoot the stage faster, but the load and unload is longer.

Not my experience with the PCC shooters I shoot with. Lock bolt back, put flag in your pocket, insert mag, release bolt. I have seen pistol shooters take up more time with their dry presses as they make ready.

[Zincwarrior]

I'm not advocating that revo be eliminated. If one person in the country wants to shoot it, have at it. That doesn't change the fact that as a viable way to compete, both it and L10 are dead.

Now L10 needs to be done away with. The people who live in ban states or in countries where mag capacity is restricted don't have (and don't need) Open 10 or Production/Carry Optics 10 to have a game. There's already ways to address compliance.

Multiple jurisdictions now limit mags to ten rounds. That is likely to increase in the future, if not nationwide.

[Clusterfrack]

,,,Around my area literally no one is shooting Revo. Almost everyone shooting PCC is Senior to Super Senior status and they do it mostly because arthritis is a thing and that’s mainly come from old age and/or shooting major for so much so many years.

So interesting how Division trends are regional. We have some high level shooters here, including one GM who travels internationally. He's truly talented at PCC, but would otherwise be a mid-B level shooter in the pistol divisions. There are a few older folks who shoot PCC, but Open, Single Stack, and Revo are where the Super Seniors go to play. I love squadding with most of those guys. They are experienced, upbeat, and supportive. Sometimes it's like having cheerleaders, except not hot and not girls.

I don't care how long people take to get ready to shoot or finish, as long as they are safe and help reset.

Gun reliability (or lack) shows a very strong pattern at the matches I've been to, regardless of location.

Glocks pretty much never fail, unless people try to make them into Open or Limited guns, or limp-wrist them while shooting minor PF ammo (usually kids or new female shooters).

CZs are also virtually 100% reliable unless people load their ammo wrong (COL too long), or fail to replace parts that constantly break in their .40 Limited CZs.

Sig 320s: super reliable, including later gen Sig Romeos.

Various polymer and metal carry-type guns can be very unreliable. It's hard to know why because it's usually newer shooters who don't return who bring these guns. I've noticed that the more "Unicorn" a gun is, the greater chance of it having issues.

Revolvers: lots of light strikes, and a few catastrophic failures that stopped the shooters match.

PCCs: malfunction all the time. As in people act surprised when they actually finish a stage without a malfunction. A few people have guns that seem to mostly run, until they don't. This division is a reliability nightmare.

2011s: malfunction quite a bit, despite people spending crazy money on them. There seems to be no correlation between cost and reliability.

1911s: Same as above.

Open 2011s: Same as above, except worse.

The frequency of malfunctions is approx. 45% PCC, 45% 1911/2011, and 10% other.

[Wake27]

I’ve only shot a handful of matches, but I always shoot in my class setup which includes my carry gun. Matches are a fun way for me to get more practice in, and I have no desire to compete for status so I’m ok shooting open with my normal setup. YMMV, but at the end of the day it’s all sending rounds down range. The only thing I can’t use is my drop leg which is a bit of a bummer.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200218/bca3b4230f51b61db48573423c928d84.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

Multiple jurisdictions now limit mags to ten rounds. That is likely to increase in the future, if not nationwide.

A. I disagree about the spread
B. Still no need for Limited 10 even if A is true

[Zincwarrior]

I’ve only shot a handful of matches, but I always shoot in my class setup which includes my carry gun. Matches are a fun way for me to get more practice in, and I have no desire to compete for status so I’m ok shooting open with my normal setup. YMMV, but at the end of the day it’s all sending rounds down range. The only thing I can’t use is my drop leg which is a bit of a bummer.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200218/bca3b4230f51b61db48573423c928d84.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dude, as a weekend comeptition hack, I find your lack of proper gamer gear offensive. ;)

You need
*Gamer wicking shirt
*Gamer double belt.
*27 Gamer approved magazine holders on your Gamer Approved Gamer belt.
*Gamer Gun.
*Gamer Head Gear.
*Gamer tacticool shades.
*Gamer bag and setup. It can't be just a bag. It has to have Gamer Approved (TM) pockets.
*Gamer trained stance and cool slow mow moves. You can't be a proper Gamer without stylin reload moves and Kewl Gamer approved bent running stance. What are you, some kind of IDPA shooter?!?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLl42HTkuZwF76Qz3NnfIW1uJv7XzKk Kpo82wb5y7Rr4w7r70Q&s

[Zincwarrior]

A. I disagree about the spread
B. Still no need for Limited 10 even if A is true

In the words of our leader, I reject your reality, and substitute my own!

[spinmove_]

So interesting how Division trends are regional. We have some high level shooters here, including one GM who travels internationally. He's truly talented at PCC, but would otherwise be a mid-B level shooter in the pistol divisions. There are a few older folks who shoot PCC, but Open, Single Stack, and Revo are where the Super Seniors go to play. I love squadding with most of those guys. They are experienced, upbeat, and supportive. Sometimes it's like having cheerleaders, except not hot and not girls.

I don't care how long people take to get ready to shoot or finish, as long as they are safe and help reset.

Gun reliability (or lack) shows a very strong pattern at the matches I've been to, regardless of location.

Glocks pretty much never fail, unless people try to make them into Open or Limited guns, or limp-wrist them while shooting minor PF ammo (usually kids or new female shooters).

CZs are also virtually 100% reliable unless people load their ammo wrong (COL too long), or fail to replace parts that constantly break in their .40 Limited CZs.

Sig 320s: super reliable, including later gen Sig Romeos.

Various polymer and metal carry-type guns can be very unreliable. It's hard to know why because it's usually newer shooters who don't return who bring these guns. I've noticed that the more "Unicorn" a gun is, the greater chance of it having issues.

Revolvers: lots of light strikes, and a few catastrophic failures that stopped the shooters match.

PCCs: malfunction all the time. As in people act surprised when they actually finish a stage without a malfunction. A few people have guns that seem to mostly run, until they don't. This division is a reliability nightmare.

2011s: malfunction quite a bit, despite people spending crazy money on them. There seems to be no correlation between cost and reliability.

1911s: Same as above.

Open 2011s: Same as above, except worse.

The frequency of malfunctions is approx. 45% PCC, 45% 1911/2011, and 10% other.

My experience generally mirrors this. And the one thing that seems to be a commonality between Limited/Open 2011s, 1911s, and PCCs is generally magazine related. The more goofy weird crap I see done to any given magazine the more that stuff seems to either break or not feed correctly. It’s almost always in the name of adding 2-3 rounds in Limited or Carry Optics or something stupid like 5-10 rounds in PCC. If these people simply used a slightly less ridiculously high capacity magazine they’d MAYBE have to reload one more time without incurring the time penalty for dealing with a catastrophic malfunction.

It’s one main reasons why I like Production. The hardware simpler, more affordable, and generally works so long as you don’t screw around with it too much.

[45dotACP]

So interesting how Division trends are regional. We have some high level shooters here, including one GM who travels internationally. He's truly talented at PCC, but would otherwise be a mid-B level shooter in the pistol divisions. There are a few older folks who shoot PCC, but Open, Single Stack, and Revo are where the Super Seniors go to play. I love squadding with most of those guys. They are experienced, upbeat, and supportive. Sometimes it's like having cheerleaders, except not hot and not girls.

I don't care how long people take to get ready to shoot or finish, as long as they are safe and help reset.

Gun reliability (or lack) shows a very strong pattern at the matches I've been to, regardless of location.

Glocks pretty much never fail, unless people try to make them into Open or Limited guns, or limp-wrist them while shooting minor PF ammo (usually kids or new female shooters).

CZs are also virtually 100% reliable unless people load their ammo wrong (COL too long), or fail to replace parts that constantly break in their .40 Limited CZs.

Sig 320s: super reliable, including later gen Sig Romeos.

Various polymer and metal carry-type guns can be very unreliable. It's hard to know why because it's usually newer shooters who don't return who bring these guns. I've noticed that the more "Unicorn" a gun is, the greater chance of it having issues.

Revolvers: lots of light strikes, and a few catastrophic failures that stopped the shooters match.

PCCs: malfunction all the time. As in people act surprised when they actually finish a stage without a malfunction. A few people have guns that seem to mostly run, until they don't. This division is a reliability nightmare.

2011s: malfunction quite a bit, despite people spending crazy money on them. There seems to be no correlation between cost and reliability.

1911s: Same as above.

Open 2011s: Same as above, except worse.

The frequency of malfunctions is approx. 45% PCC, 45% 1911/2011, and 10% other.Carry Optics is probably the biggest division around me. Followed by Limited, Production, PCC, Single Stack and Revo.

My last match I was one of 6 guys in Single Stack.

I actually haven't seen more than one Revo guy at a time.


As for reliability...I mean the onus is on the shooter to make sure they know what's going on with their gun.

The issue I see is usually not relegated to specific divisions. Guys try to buy performance (reduced power striker springs, reduced power recoil springs, just barely power factor ammo, higher cap mags for their PCC, CO, Limited, or Open gun) and it costs them.

I've seen guys literally go home from matches because their PCC was so broken it was a bolt gun.

I'm blessed to have little drama with my guns, but it's at the cost of learning the hard way to diagnose and fix my gun problems. You cannot be optimistic when you see a warning sign about your guns reliability. The more serious I get about USPSA the more I have come to prioritize reliability.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

You cannot be optimistic when you see a warning sign about your guns reliability. The more serious I get about USPSA the more I have come to prioritize reliability.


^^^THIS and ^^^THIS

[rob_s]

I'd be in favor of a two-malf stage DQ.

[Alpha Sierra]

The more goofy weird crap I see done to any given magazine the more that stuff seems to either break or not feed correctly. It’s almost always in the name of adding 2-3 rounds in Limited or Carry Optics or something stupid like 5-10 rounds in PCC. If these people simply used a slightly less ridiculously high capacity magazine they’d MAYBE have to reload one more time without incurring the time penalty for dealing with a catastrophic malfunction.

Agree. Now that I shoot carry optics I roll with two 19 round mags with CZ OEM +2 basepads and two 19 rounders, plus a barney mag for MR.

Very seldomly do I come across a stage that has 23 - 24 rounds, and when I do there's always a place to do a reload on the move.

I tried, for shits and grins, to setup a mag to take 23 rounds and found two things: the base pad won't fit in the 141 mm gage and I had to cut the spring down so much that now the gun won't lock open on empty. IMO that's not a reliable magazine to take to a match, even if it weren't over length.

[Clusterfrack]

In my S2 CO gun, I'm having good luck with 22 rounds reloadable using 17 round Mec-gar tubes, Henning or Springer extensions, and Grams followers & springs. I've yet to have an issue. A couple of the Springer mags needed to be filed on the back feed lip corners to fit in the gauge. Henning extensions are GTG, and I prefer those.

[jetfire]

No one who is even moderately serious about USPSA Revolver uses a six gun with speedloaders. They're all using 8 shooters with moonclips.

I used to use a 6 shot speedloader gun and junk dudes running 8 shooters. 🤷*♂️

[GJM]

22 rounds has worked in nearly every 140mm mag I have used, regardless of platform. 23 has always been iffy, and if even an option, reserved for something like a 24 round speed shot, where the time for a reload is almost equal to the points loss with a miss.

[spinmove_]

Agree. Now that I shoot carry optics I roll with two 19 round mags with CZ OEM +2 basepads and two 19 rounders, plus a barney mag for MR.

Very seldomly do I come across a stage that has 23 - 24 rounds, and when I do there's always a place to do a reload on the move.

I tried, for shits and grins, to setup a mag to take 23 rounds and found two things: the base pad won't fit in the 141 mm gage and I had to cut the spring down so much that now the gun won't lock open on empty. IMO that's not a reliable magazine to take to a match, even if it weren't over length.

Unfortunately our club just LOVES to run 32+ round stages at least once or twice a match because we have so many bloody Limited, Open, PCC, and Carry Optics shooters. It’s really frustrating sometimes as a Production shooter when the stage is literally designed to shoot 10+ rounds from a single standing location to where I’m at an obvious disadvantage sitting there making standing reloads.

That said, and not because of the situations above, there’s a decent chance at some point in the future I may switch over to Carry Optics as I’ll eventually get dot curious and then will want to shoot what I carry. If I do that, there’s a good chance it’ll be with a P-10F with 19+2 OEM magazines as that's about as reliable an OEM solution I could get for doing such a thing.

[GJM]

Unfortunately our club just LOVES to run 32+ round stages at least once or twice a match because we have so many bloody Limited, Open, PCC, and Carry Optics shooters. It’s really frustrating sometimes as a Production shooter when the stage is literally designed to shoot 10+ rounds from a single standing location to where I’m at an obvious disadvantage sitting there making standing reloads.

That said, and not because of the situations above, there’s a decent chance at some point in the future I may switch over to Carry Optics as I’ll eventually get dot curious and then will want to shoot what I carry. If I do that, there’s a good chance it’ll be with a P-10F with 19+2 OEM magazines as that's about as reliable an OEM solution I could get for doing such a thing.

Do the CZ OEM 19 round mags with the +2 extensions fit the 140 gauge?

[Clusterfrack]

[QUOTE=spinmove_;997735]Unfortunately our club just LOVES to run 32+ round stages at least once or twice a match because we have so many bloody Limited, Open, PCC, and Carry Optics shooters. It’s really frustrating sometimes as a Production shooter when the stage is literally designed to shoot 10+ rounds from a single standing location to where I’m at an obvious disadvantage sitting there making standing reloads.

/QUOTE]

That sucks. Bad stage design regardless of division.

[Alpha Sierra]

I used to use a 6 shot speedloader gun and junk dudes running 8 shooters. 🤷*♂️

Video or it didn't happen :)

[Alpha Sierra]

Do the CZ OEM 19 round mags with the +2 extensions fit the 140 gauge?

I'd like to know myself before the Buckeye Blast. I may just buy a gauge.

[Alpha Sierra]

In my S2 CO gun, I'm having good luck with 22 rounds reloadable using 17 round Mec-gar tubes, Henning or Springer extensions, and Grams followers & springs. I've yet to have an issue. A couple of the Springer mags needed to be filed on the back feed lip corners to fit in the gauge. Henning extensions are GTG, and I prefer those.

I have a gift certificate for Springer from one of last year's matches, but everything I hear about Henning baseplates makes me want to buy some.

I'd hate to go to the state match in May and get f-ed with mags that don't fit the gage.

[Jim Watson]

Long Courses – In Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

The places I shoot limit to 32 even at L1.
Tomorrow will likely have 2x32, 2x20, 2 classifier. 2-8 hits per position.

[olstyn]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLl42HTkuZwF76Qz3NnfIW1uJv7XzKk Kpo82wb5y7Rr4w7r70Q&s

That meme is beautifully true, apart from the fact that it's using "you're" where "your" would be correct. :(

[Clusterfrack]

I have a gift certificate for Springer from one of last year's matches, but everything I hear about Henning baseplates makes me want to buy some.

I'd hate to go to the state match in May and get f-ed with mags that don't fit the gage.

Springer bases are good. Maybe a few 1000s of filing on the rear top of mag to fit the gauge. No big deal. Henning are better but not that much better.

[Xhado]

I am gonna do a hot take here and say that having a PCC, Revo and Lim10 division basically doesn't hurt anyone.

As a shooter, it doesn't hurt me at all.

As a spectator it does leave me bummed out.

For example:

I do not like watching Shane Coley winning L10 Nats, especially when I know he lost out in Limited Nats earlier in the year to JJ. It would have been much more entertaining if he went head to head with Ben Stoeger in Production.

Also, in the upper echelons of the sport PCC should get dedicated PCC stage designs instead of being paired with Open.

[Alpha Sierra]

As a shooter, it doesn't hurt me at all.

As a spectator it does leave me bummed out.

For example:

I do not like watching Shane Coley winning L10 Nats, especially when I know he lost out in Limited Nats earlier in the year to JJ. It would have been much more entertaining if he went head to head with Ben Stoeger in Production.

Gamers gonna game..........

[spinmove_]

Do the CZ OEM 19 round mags with the +2 extensions fit the 140 gauge?

That’s actually a good question. I honestly have no idea and just assumed they would.

[spinmove_]

[QUOTE=spinmove_;997735]Unfortunately our club just LOVES to run 32+ round stages at least once or twice a match because we have so many bloody Limited, Open, PCC, and Carry Optics shooters. It’s really frustrating sometimes as a Production shooter when the stage is literally designed to shoot 10+ rounds from a single standing location to where I’m at an obvious disadvantage sitting there making standing reloads.

/QUOTE]

That sucks. Bad stage design regardless of division.

It’s insanely annoying. This past weekend I shot a match that had a 36 round stage with a single array of 6 targets requiring 6 shots per target. No barriers, nothing fancy with movement, and not much opportunity to shoot on the move. In fact, after the first 12 rounds you can essentially shoot a few rounds on the move and then just post up and finish the stage. I did no less than 3 standing reloads to finish the stage because there was no better way to finish.

[GJM]

That’s actually a good question. I honestly have no idea and just assumed they would.

I shot a P10F for a while last spring into early summer, and have a vague recollection that the OEM 19 and the OEM 19 with CZ Custom or Springer 140mm base pads fit the 140 gauge, but the OEM 19 with the MecGar +2 base pads ate too long. Verify this as it has been a while, and I sold my P10 and P09 pistols, so I can't easily check.

[Clusterfrack]

I did no less than 3 standing reloads to finish the stage because there was no better way to finish.

Yep. Been there and done that. It's actually kind of funny because so many people try to shoehorn reloads into places that don't make sense, and end up taking more time for worse points. Crappy stand and deliver stages often require standing reloads for low cap divisions.

[GJM]

If I couldn’t get 22+1 into my CO pistol, I would switch platforms. In a lot of our local matches, one extra standing reload can make a big difference in placement. A few extra rounds in the mag allows me to shoot more aggressively, especially on steel.

[Alpha Sierra]

If I couldn’t get 22+1 into my CO pistol, I would switch platforms. In a lot of our local matches, one extra standing reload can make a big difference in placement. A few extra rounds in the mag allows me to shoot more aggressively, especially on steel.

I'm not going to lose sleep over a one round delta.

[GJM]

I'm not going to lose sleep over a one round delta.

Maybe not lose sleep, but my wife beat me at a match Saturday, when I came up one shot short on the last steel target on a stage!

[Clusterfrack]

Maybe not lose sleep, but my wife beat me at a match Saturday, when I came up one shot short on the last steel target on a stage!

Awesome! Good for her!

[GJM]

Awesome! Good for her!

You, everyone else, and especially she likes it when she beats me. She has been doing it about 25 percent of the time, so I have learned to be a gracious loser! ::mad:

[YVK]

I'm not going to lose sleep over a one round delta.

I lost a little bit of sleep about it after a 120 points 10-16 HF seconds Nationals stage, by people who could get 23+1 into their guns. For those of us who had to reload that translated into more match points lost in 7 seconds than I would've been agreeable with.

[Clay1]

If you truly don't care about the game for its own sake, then you will shoot Open with whatever you have and deal with the results.

If you do actually care then you have to stay within the rules. You don't get to try change for everyone it because you don't get it.

I'm a USPSA member and shoot every Tuesday night in a league along with a practice night. I shoot this game to work on my skill set. The gun that I carry, I can't shoot it in IDPA which is suppose to be a carry gun centric sport. Note: I carry AIWB, G19.5 with RM06, Compensator and X300U (Rolandish).

I wanted to practice with my carry gun. I shoot 124 Nato rounds at 1200 fps and the comp runs the way it is suppose to. I shoot with the light and the comp because that is what I carry. I have no aspirations of winning even a local match, I just want to get better with what I carry and know that if I train with what I carry, I will be better if I ever have to use it.

Guess what, I shoot in Open, I get over it, and I shoot against what I shot last week or last month or last year. I also compete from concealment. Tell me, how many guys have you seen compete in Open from concealment? I am getting better and I am having a blast. Life is good. So to the original Op. Go play the game with whatever toys you choose to play with and be happy. It's just a game.

[Alpha Sierra]

Maybe not lose sleep, but my wife beat me at a match Saturday, when I came up one shot short on the last steel target on a stage!

Yeah, that one had to hurt....LOL

[olstyn]

Yeah, that one had to hurt....LOL

Given some of the things GJM has posted regarding his wife's shooting in the past, especially her rate of improvement, I would suggest that there is no shame in losing to her - my understanding is that she has gotten quite good.

[jetfire]

Video or it didn't happen :)

Ask and ye shall receive! Outlaw USPSA match, there were a couple of dudes there with clipped 627s. I won


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7SaNN3WxE

[Alpha Sierra]

Ask and ye shall receive! Outlaw USPSA match, there were a couple of dudes there with clipped 627s. I won


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7SaNN3WxE

LOL I had seen that one before. No idea how you ended up tho.

[YVK]

I do not like watching Shane Coley winning L10 Nats, especially when I know he lost out in Limited Nats earlier in the year to JJ. It would have been much more entertaining if he went head to head with Ben

Business decision, I presume, Team Glock adds another Nationals win...

[Xhado]

Business decision, I presume, Team Glock adds another Nationals win...

Of course, good decision for Shane/Glock/Agency

Bad decision for the sport.

L10 should go away.

[YVK]

I don't think that the sport itself, as in people of it, has any illusions about L10. In regards to a specific potential match-up you alluded to, I don't think there is much illusion about as well. Shane shooting 343 alphas vs Ben's 403 for a gain of whole 3 seconds would not leave much to imagination if they both shot minor pf. I don't really think L10 dilutes the scene than much.

Personally I don't care if the organization goes after barely-there divisions. I am more concerned about them not doing anything about previously popular divisions that are starting to decline. I may have been still shooting Production if it were with 140 mm mags, but that's a different discussion.

[Alpha Sierra]

I am more concerned about them not doing anything about previously popular divisions that are starting to decline. I may have been still shooting Production if it were with 140 mm mags, but that's a different discussion.

Agree about the decline. Production is nearly dead in my local matches. The state match is a different story, with P and CO sign ups about equal.

Personally, I'd rather USPSA had bumped Production and CO magazine capacity to 15 like IPSC instead of giving CO effectively 20+ and leaving Production at 10. In any event, reloads were not what drove me out of Production.

The people in ban states can download to 10, just like they do now for Open and Limited.

[BigT]

Production remains the biggest division in IPSC, by a pretty serious margin.

9mm is obviously part of that but I think the 15 as opposed to 10 mag cap really helps its appeal.

[Clusterfrack]

I like Production as it is. Local matches here don’t have as many Production shooters as before the new divisions. But some younger shooters with real talent are coming to Production here, so I think we’re ok. Level 2 and 3 matches have plenty of heat.

Bottom line, Production is a great game, and to me it’s the best division.

[Artemas2]

I like the added challenge of working reloads and the added layers of stage planing that production has over the high cap divisions. I also think that the lo cap divisions have more mental game involved. I don't like the idea of turning production in to another hoser division.

Locally all the divisions has been losing ground to CO and PCC, but it has not greatly changed the overall match placements among our regulars.

[GJM]

I don't see how allowing Production to have 140mm magazines, just like CO, hurts the game. That is unless, you think loading Production magazines to an artificial limit below their actual capacity to get to practice reloads is interesting. This would bring a number of shooters from Limited, that are now shooting Production guns in Limited but with 140mm mags, back to Production, and increase the viability of Production.

[Zincwarrior]

Production: Its not broke so don't fix it.

[GJM]

Production: Its not broke so don't fix it.

In AZ and MT, there are probably more single stack shooters than Production, and in local matches Production is dead.

[Zincwarrior]

In AZ and MT, there are probably more single stack shooters than Production, and in local matches Production is dead.

In Texas it is very alive. I am at the bottom score of a long list of Production shooters monthly. Single stack shooters are limited here.

Additionally, its an excellent entrypoint for IDPA shooters who are switching over.

Respectfully, so, what? If shooters in your locale are shooting something else, then its irrelevant if there's one or two hundred production shooters.

[Clusterfrack]

I would strongly oppose high cap in Production. To me, Production is the most challenging division because it combines minor PF, low capacity, iron sights, and at least in theory a more challenging trigger.

Steel? Better go one for one.

Partials? Still need to shoot Alphas.

Makeup shots? Don’t do it unless you really need to.

CO is fun, but doesn’t speak to me the way Production does, because of the no bullshit challenges of this division.


I don't see how allowing Production to have 140mm magazines, just like CO, hurts the game. That is unless, you think loading Production magazines to an artificial limit below their actual capacity to get to practice reloads is interesting. This would bring a number of shooters from Limited, that are now shooting Production guns in Limited but with 140mm mags, back to Production, and increase the viability of Production.

[bofe954]

I would strongly oppose high cap in Production. To me, Production is the most challenging division because it combines minor PF, low capacity, iron sights, and at least in theory a more challenging trigger.

Steel? Better go one for one.

Partials? Still need to shoot Alphas.

Makeup shots? Don’t do it unless you really need to.

CO is fun, but doesn’t speak to me the way Production does, because of the no bullshit challenges of this division.

I wouldn't mind 15 rounds to make it the same as IPSC. Still probably 2 reloads per stage. Wouldn't be so much mag cleaning/fiddling between stages. I don't want 140mm though. I hate the equipment race BS. I don't want to have to think about what to file off my follower to eek in one more round. I have +0 base pads on my mags, but I like the idea that I can go buy a mag at a sporting goods store and use it.

[Bucky]

In AZ and MT, there are probably more single stack shooters than Production, and in local matches Production is dead.

On the North East Coast, production is thriving and SS is dead.

[cheby]

There are different skills that become more important for different divisions. To me the most difficult division to be competitive is Open. Of course it easier to hit the target with the Open gun but that is not enough to be competitive. This might mean being more aggressive, more shooting on the move, less stopping. Trying to blend shooting positions together. The goal being to essentially be shooting constantly.
Make up shots are still bad, sure you might come into a position with 8 pieces of steel and have 15+ rounds in the gun. But if you take 5 or 6 make up shots you're going to be way off the pace for the stage. The HHF's are going to be higher so the extra time you add taking make up shots is going to hurt more then loosing the same amount of time in a minor low cap division

[spinmove_]

In AZ and MT, there are probably more single stack shooters than Production, and in local matches Production is dead.

Our last match we had 10 Production shooters. By way of comparison, we had 9 Open, 7 Limited, 12 Carry Optics, 6 PCC, and 3 Single Stack shooters. That’s fairly representative of distribution around here. It’s obviously very HiCap heavy and some of the more questionable stage designs reflect the bias.

[CleverNickname]

L10 should go away.

Just combine it and SS. Keep the 8rd major / 10 rd minor rule from SS to keep the choice of power factor not obvious.

[cheby]

Just combine it and SS. Keep the 8rd major / 10 rd minor rule from SS to keep the choice of power factor not obvious.

And include production as well. Call it Low Cap Iron Sight

[Clusterfrack]

And include production as well. Call it Low Cap Iron Sight

No dude. Leave Production out of this. It works. No need to fix it.

[Jim Watson]

Yesterday weeknight indoor USPSA
1 Open
7 Limited
1 Single stack
4 Production
1 Carry Optic. (Usually more)
6 PCC. (Usually fewer.)

I thought Production was meant to be an entry and economy division, not an additional challenge and a high pressure specialty.
I think standard capacity magazines would be reasonable, but not protruding 140s.
I think that should be accompanied by backing off most of the modifications that have crept in.

[Alpha Sierra]

I wouldn't mind 15 rounds to make it the same as IPSC. Still probably 2 reloads per stage. Wouldn't be so much mag cleaning/fiddling between stages. I don't want 140mm though. I hate the equipment race BS. I don't want to have to think about what to file off my follower to eek in one more round. I have +0 base pads on my mags, but I like the idea that I can go buy a mag at a sporting goods store and use it.

Agreed. Rename CO as Production Optics, 15 rounds for Prod and PO.

Done.

[RJ]

Yesterday weeknight indoor USPSA
1 Open
7 Limited
1 Single stack
4 Production
1 Carry Optic. (Usually more)
6 PCC. (Usually fewer.)

I thought Production was meant to be an entry and economy division, not an additional challenge and a high pressure specialty.
I think standard capacity magazines would be reasonable, but not protruding 140s.
I think that should be accompanied by backing off most of the modifications that have crept in.

Interesting, my last match 19 of 49 shooters were in Production.

[Alpha Sierra]

I thought Production was meant to be an entry and economy division, not an additional challenge and a high pressure specialty.

Intent is for IDPA, though I agree with your points about magazines and most modifications.

[Jim Watson]

In my cynical opinion, USPSA Production was put in to compete with IDPA SSP.

[cheby]

In my cynical opinion, USPSA Production was put in to compete with IDPA SSP.

Yes, to a certain degree. Then Production USPSA guns arrived: Stock 2, 3, and Shadow 2 which are essentially Limited Minor guns. Then Carry Optics killed the whole Production thing as an idea to me. It is alive in places where 10rds mags limit is more apparent.
Don't get me wrong, I love Production. I guess, I am still a timmy deep down inside and would prefer to have a real production (Let's call it Timmy) division.

[YVK]

I am not sure what we're discussing anymore, but since everyone is weighing in on the Production... I really wish I had quit shooting it sooner. I also wish that the price of playing with nice toys in the Limited was a bit less steep.

[Alpha Sierra]

In my cynical opinion, USPSA Production was put in to compete with IDPA SSP.

And thank God Production pistol specifications didn't stay that way.

[Medusa]

In my cynical opinion, USPSA Production was put in to compete with IDPA SSP.

suits my limited goals (see what I did there) fine, and I use the same gear for both except more mag carriers.

[Jim Watson]

Good with me.
I have a younger agile friend who made the choice to push Production instead of paying for the latest and greatest in Limited.

[bofe954]

I am not sure what we're discussing anymore, but since everyone is weighing in on the Production... I really wish I had quit shooting it sooner. I also wish that the price of playing with nice toys in the Limited was a bit less steep.

You're right this is turning into 5 different threads. Since it's happening though...Why do wish you quit it sooner?

Do you think the nice toys are required? I shot limited a long time back and had a Brazos gun. It was about 3K back then which I thought was ridiculous. Now they are probably 5K. I was looking at it again recently and thinking if I did it again it would be with a CZ or probably the DWX. People seem to be able to do OK with the Tanfo's and they aren't that expensive.

[Zincwarrior]

In my cynical opinion, USPSA Production was put in to compete with IDPA SSP.

Thats exactly why it was put in.

[rob_s]

what's driving the move away from Production for you guys? What about it attracted you in the beginning and what is now leading you away from it?

[Alpha Sierra]

what's driving the move away from Production for you guys? What about it attracted you in the beginning and what is now leading you away from it?

What attracted me to Production was its relatively low barrier to entry. Just about any duty sized handgun is more than good enough to make GM with if your skills are up to it. I started with a CZ 75, a kydex pancake, Wilderness belt, and four clip-on kydex mag pouches. Placed mid-field (out of typically 40 - 60 competitors) right from the get go. Eventually bought a full belt rig and transitioned to a CZ P-09 which for me has much better ergos and shoots much flatter. The allowable modification are for the most part relatively easy and cheap, at least the ones that gain you the most capability for the $. You can go full retard now changing all the internals, but the advantage that provides is really marginal.

What drove me away was the fact that Carry Optics provides a relatively affordable option with a sighting system that doesn't handicap me (I'm 53 and have had presbyopia for about 10 years) against people with younger, better eyes. I'll put my movement skills against most and I can improve them at relatively low risk and cost, but there's nothing I can do to fix my eyes' lack of accommodation that isn't surgically invasive and expensive.

[YVK]

Why do wish you quit it sooner?


what's driving the move away from Production for you guys? What about it attracted you in the beginning and what is now leading you away from it?

Ease of entry into the division, relative competitiveness of my carry gun (I made a B class with P30 LEM then), and perceived benefit of extra challenge associated with low cap were my reasons to get into the USPSA via the Production, Rob.

Low capacity (combined with non-competitiveness of minor pf in the Limited) is my main reason to have left. People speak of low cap as an extra mental challenge, as if we're playing chess here. We're not. You're simply anchored to reloading after each target array, and sometimes after shooting just a couple of targets. The worst part is that it affects other aspects of the game that I don't get to try and execute during matches with the aggression of an unimpeded movement. Can I occasionally arrive to the next array as fast while doing a reload as without? Yes, but it is an exception for me, and many others. It is not theoretical, I can show it in match placements in comparison to my local A/M shooters who shoot both Prod and CO. I shot a class with Stoeger, his stage plan was less aggressive in some ways than mine just because there was no point for him to shoot on the move [that he could have easily executed] and then find himself at the next shooting position without having done a reload. I am not a good mover, I am not a good reloader, low cap disrupts my flow too much, hi cap allows me to push and work on movement and aggression. I'll never go back to Production as long as it is low cap.




Do you think the nice toys are required? I shot limited a long time back and had a Brazos gun. It was about 3K back then which I thought was ridiculous. Now they are probably 5K. I was looking at it again recently and thinking if I did it again it would be with a CZ or probably the DWX. People seem to be able to do OK with the Tanfo's and they aren't that expensive.

I don't know if they are required but my personal observation is that most people around me who have started with the TSOs have migrated to 2011 anyway. Not because triggers, because guns' behavior under major pf conditions, both shooting and breakages. I won't use the Tanfo. I had two that I spent four digit numbers on just making them run, unsuccessfully, during my Production years. The brand is dead to me. Cheaper option of STI is dead too, now that they are voiding their warranty if you put a steel grip on. Seems like 4 grand Atlas is sort of default baseline choice these days.

[Zincwarrior]

What attracted me to Production was its relatively low barrier to entry. Just about any duty sized handgun is more than good enough to make GM with if your skills are up to it. I started with a CZ 75, a kydex pancake, Wilderness belt, and four clip-on kydex mag pouches. Placed mid-field (out of typically 40 - 60 competitors) right from the get go. Eventually bought a full belt rig and transitioned to a CZ P-09 which for me has much better ergos and shoots much flatter. The allowable modification are for the most part relatively easy and cheap, at least the ones that gain you the most capability for the $. You can go full retard now changing all the internals, but the advantage that provides is really marginal.

What drove me away was the fact that Carry Optics provides a relatively affordable option with a sighting system that doesn't handicap me (I'm 53 and have had presbyopia for about 10 years) against people with younger, better eyes. I'll put my movement skills against most and I can improve them at relatively low risk and cost, but there's nothing I can do to fix my eyes' lack of accommodation that isn't surgically invasive and expensive.

I think that is a big driver, especially on the IDPA side. On the USPSA side: 1) I almost never see anyone my age or older shooting; 2) If so they almost inevitably are shooting CO, along with anyone apparently over 30; 3) I specifically bought my pistol with the view I might be doing the same in the next 12 - 24 months; and 4) it seems many use CO as a baby Open category.

If anything we need a Production:CO category. :cool:

[Alpha Sierra]

I think that is a big driver, especially on the IDPA side. On the USPSA side: 1) I almost never see anyone my age or older shooting; 2) If so they almost inevitably are shooting CO, along with anyone apparently over 30; 3) I specifically bought my pistol with the view I might be doing the same in the next 12 - 24 months; and 4) it seems many use CO as a baby Open category.

If anything we need a Production:CO category. :cool:

Carry Optics in the USA IS production with an optic, with the exception of the magazines. In the rest of the world (IPSC) it's called Production Optics because that's precisely what it is.

[Clusterfrack]

It's great that this thread is moving toward less criticizing of divisions, and more focus on what makes each challenging and unique.

I like shooting iron sights. My vision has remained remarkably good as I've aged, and I intend to take full advantage of that.

I like minor PF scoring. It's what I'm used to, and I like the challenges it presents. Major is just different, and has other challenges.

I like limited ammo because of the requirements of explosive speed, high risk, and the stress it imposes on me. High cap is fun as well because of the continuous aggressive movement it enables, so I enjoy shooting CO occasionally.

It's also really interesting to compare stage plans and outcomes across divisions, so I like squadding with shooters of a range of divisions.

“Good” stage design makes all the difference.

Bottom line: USPSA is awesome. Best game ever.

[Zincwarrior]

Carry Optics in the USA IS production with an optic, with the exception of the magazines. In the rest of the world (IPSC) it's called Production Optics because that's precisely what it is.

"with the exception of the magazines" is the part I am talking about.

[Alpha Sierra]

"with the exception of the magazines" is the part I am talking about.

OK, I get it now. But that's still a pretty low barrier. CZ P-09/P-10F are 19 rounds stock, 21 rounds with a $10 OEM extended base pad, and 22 - 23 with a slightly pricier ($35 or so) aftermarket baseplate plus a $20 Grams follower/spring. Seems like a lot until you realize that two extended mags and two stock 19 rounders will see you through any stage you can think of.

[Zincwarrior]

OK, I get it now. But that's still a pretty low barrier. CZ P-09/P-10F are 19 rounds stock, 21 rounds with a $10 OEM extended base pad, and 22 - 23 with a slightly pricier ($35 or so) aftermarket baseplate plus a $20 Grams follower/spring. Seems like a lot until you realize that two extended mags and two stock 19 rounders will see you through any stage you can think of.

Yes, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything.

[45dotACP]

It's great that this thread is moving toward less criticizing of divisions, and more focus on what makes each challenging and unique.

I like shooting iron sights. My vision has remained remarkably good as I've aged, and I intend to take full advantage of that.

I like minor PF scoring. It's what I'm used to, and I like the challenges it presents. Major is just different, and has other challenges.

I like limited ammo because of the requirements of explosive speed, high risk, and the stress it imposes on me. High cap is fun as well because of the continuous aggressive movement it enables, so I enjoy shooting CO occasionally.

It's also really interesting to compare stage plans and outcomes across divisions, so I like squadding with shooters of a range of divisions.

“Good” stage design makes all the difference.

Bottom line: USPSA is awesome. Best game ever.


I think USPSA is by far the best game.

A lot of the reasons you enjoy production are why I enjoy single stack division. I actually shot both for the longest time and was even getting into carry optics, but my time for shooting has grown lesser because life gets in the way and I've been hooked on BJJ for a while and trying to pick up overtime, so I decided to drop down to just shooting one division and this coming season I won't be shooting any other sport but USPSA.

What I like about single stack is that I can still shoot a minor division with 10 rounds and see how I do against the production guys when I have to focus more on shooting all A's while still being mindful of reloads. I love production, but I also love shooting my cheat codes gun (aka a full sized 9mm 1911) so this allows me to do just that. Plus, I don't always have a bunch of ammo on hand for the .45, but I always have 9mm around.

The Major portion of single stack is pretty fun too, although the capacity and the major PF are somewhat oxymoronic. As a more accuracy focused shooter I find it challenging because it rewards me actually going faster, but because of the capacity, you'll never truly take full advantage of the speed major allows you because of all the damned reloads. Also because of the capacity I have to know I'm hitting correctly and never make up shots, which has made me really focus on developing speed and efficiency, but also the ability to call my shots. It does allow me a bit more leeway on partials though, and the big honking magwell makes it easy to get a mag in the gun.

So long as my eyes are good (and they are, because I'm just under 30) I'll probably shoot an iron sighted divison.

[Alpha Sierra]

So long as my eyes are good (and they are, because I'm just under 30) I'll probably shoot an iron sighted divison.

Would you be interested in a tuned 627 and a nice belt rig to go with it?

[45dotACP]

Unfortunately you caught me at the point in life where I'm down to just one division until I actually get gooder

Besides, the three other single stack guys are depending on me to improve my skills so I can be tough competition. Can't let them down [emoji23]

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[Xhado]

I don't think that the sport itself, as in people of it, has any illusions about L10. In regards to a specific potential match-up you alluded to, I don't think there is much illusion about as well. Shane shooting 343 alphas vs Ben's 403 for a gain of whole 3 seconds would not leave much to imagination if they both shot minor pf. I don't really think L10 dilutes the scene than much.


I'm not saying that Ben would of lost, but I'm willing to bet Shane would had a different game plan if he was shooting production.

This argument is like saying the 49ers shouldn't have played in the Super Bowl because we know they lost by two scores. As a spectator I want to see the best shooters go head to head, even if I know that there is a front runner going into the match.



Just combine it and SS. Keep the 8rd major / 10 rd minor rule from SS to keep the choice of power factor not obvious.
This makes no sense. L10 can be collapsed into Limited and the only people who will be upset is the ones who can't keep up with the stiffer competition.

Combining it with SS would make it quite troublesome when it comes time to pick a IPSC World Shoot Classic team and the front runner shoots a Glock.

[YVK]

I'm not saying that Ben would of lost, but I'm willing to bet Shane would had a different game plan if he was shooting production.





That's true, although looking at the numbers and times, I dunno what he could've done even if he shot Production.
Shane is a terrific shooter but at the highest levels he hasn't made much of an impact in any minor power factor division. Major vs minor shooting style and approach are really different. JJ told @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410) how shooting Production messed up his Open game at some point. There are maybe four guys who are able to shoot both and be real contenders at the Nats. I doubt we were robbed of some tense match-up in this particular case and, in general, people who choose shooting L10 do it because they know they don't have a realistic chance of winning in a real division. Regardless if it is a local match or Nats.

[Xhado]

That's true, although looking at the numbers and times, I dunno what he could've done even if he shot Production.
Shane is a terrific shooter but at the highest levels he hasn't made much of an impact in any minor power factor division.

9/10 Ben's going to win. 1/10 is the 2016 production nats where Shane beat Ben.

No one would have predicted the 9-7 Titans would have beat the 12-4 Patriots and the 14-2 Ravens. Things like that make sports exciting. We never would have seen that if the Titans were playing in a different league.

[Alpha Sierra]

The shooting sports are extremely individual and almost completely devoid of spectator appeal. Even slightly considering the appeal of shooter x vs y as the basis to have or not have a division misses the point of this sport completely.

[Wake27]

Since this has morphed into a general USPSA thread, anyone know why the member class look-up tool would be showing that I haven't shot a single classifier? Do clubs or I have to input that data in a separate manner than just posting scores on practiscore? I was really hoping to be classed after yesterday's match.

[Artemas2]

Since this has morphed into a general USPSA thread, anyone know why the member class look-up tool would be showing that I haven't shot a single classifier? Do clubs or I have to input that data in a separate manner than just posting scores on practiscore? I was really hoping to be classed after yesterday's match.

you have to wait for your MD to upload the results to USPSA and then wait until the following Tuesday night for the system to be run.

Most clubs are pretty good about getting them up in a few days through the next week.

You will also need a minimum of 4 valid classifier entries before you get an initial letter for your division.
https://uspsa.org/pages/about/classification

[Wake27]

you have to wait for your MD to upload the results to USPSA and then wait until the following Tuesday night for the system to be run.

Most clubs are pretty good about getting them up in a few days through the next week.

You will also need a minimum of 4 valid classifier entries before you get an initial letter for your division.

Ok so that explains the one from yesterday, thanks. Do they expire? I shot my other three in 2018.


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[Artemas2]

Ok so that explains the one from yesterday, thanks. Do they expire? I shot my other three in 2018.

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Not that I am aware of. Sometimes older stages are removed, but I am not sure how that affects percentages if at all. So long as they have a "Y" next to them you should be good.

There is one club I shoot that only uploads once a year in December, which is rather annoying.

[Bucky]

This makes no sense. L10 can be collapsed into Limited and the only people who will be upset is the ones who can't keep up with the stiffer competition.


The people who live in a ten round state and want to shoot an Area match or nationals will also be upset.

[Alpha Sierra]

The people who live in a ten round state and want to shoot an Area match or nationals will also be upset.

What do those shooting Open or Carry Optics in those states do?

Limited does NOT need a special needs category when none of the other high cap divisions do.

[Wake27]

What do those shooting Open or Carry Optics in those states do?

Limited does NOT need a special needs category when none of the other high cap divisions do.

Suck it up? That’s what I did, but I really don’t care about placement. I know it was a real concern for many in Hawaii though.


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[Bucky]

What do those shooting Open or Carry Optics in those states do?

Limited does NOT need a special needs category when none of the other high cap divisions do.

They shoot Limited 10. ;)

Seriously though, it does give those an option at a tricked out gun, sans optics and comps. Why do we need single stack? For years so many claimed the 1911 is the ultimate fighting handgun, it’s only limitation being capacity. Why not roll them into Limited 10? Why do they need, as you put it, a “special needs category” division? I’d even go so far as to remove the .40 caliber major restriction on limited 10.

[Artemas2]

I shoot a few matches in NY every month due to how close I live to it. I see 1 or 2 L10 shooter at a given match, limited and open are surprisingly popular.
As per USPSA rules if you live in a ban state you are running 10 round mags anyway and the stages seem to be better designed to accommodate that fact.

[Clusterfrack]

What do those shooting Open or Carry Optics in those states do?

Limited does NOT need a special needs category when none of the other high cap divisions do.

I'm chuckling at the image of 2 or 3 Lim10 shooters arriving at a match in a short bus with well-licked windows.

[jetfire]

I'm chuckling at the image of 2 or 3 Lim10 shooters arriving at a match in a short bus with well-licked windows.

They can ride with the revolver guys

[Clusterfrack]

They can ride with the revolver guys

Only if you're willing to share your crayons ;)

[jetfire]

Only if you're willing to share your crayons ;)

GET YOUR OWN

[GJM]

I stumbled onto what I believe is a P09 OEM magazine with the +2 OEM extension. Assuming this is it, it seems a bit long when I tried it in my 140mm Springer Precision gauge.

49190

[BigT]

I stumbled onto what I believe is a P09 OEM magazine with the +2 OEM extension. Assuming this is it, it seems a bit long when I tried it in my 140mm Springer Precision gauge.

49190

That doesn't look like the OEM +2's I've seen. Unless the F one is different the P10C and P07 here ship with two in the box with the gun and they're basically the same mecgar shoe you see on their 75 and 92 mags.

[Zincwarrior]

That look a lot like my Sig X 5 21 rounders.

[GJM]

That doesn't look like the OEM +2's I've seen. Unless the F one is different the P10C and P07 here ship with two in the box with the gun and they're basically the same mecgar shoe you see on their 75 and 92 mags.

Here is a link to the mag I gauged as slightly too long:

http://gregcotellc.com/cart/cz-factory-mecgar-actmag-c-173/cz-p09-cz-p10-f-9mm-21-rd-aluminum-base-2-cz-11621-11444-p-1706.html

[Alpha Sierra]

I stumbled onto what I believe is a P09 OEM magazine with the +2 OEM extension. Assuming this is it, it seems a bit long when I tried it in my 140mm Springer Precision gauge.

49190

That's not the OEM +2 base pad

This one is
https://hbindustries.net/store/shop/cz-p07p09p10-magazine-2-base-pad/

[BigT]

That's not the OEM +2 base pad

This one is
https://hbindustries.net/store/shop/cz-p07p09p10-magazine-2-base-pad/


Thats the only one I've seen.

[Xhado]

The people who live in a ten round state and want to shoot an Area match or nationals will also be upset.
Took a Ben Stoeger class this week. There was a Canadian open shooter present who had plenty of 170mm mags.

While in Canada the mags are riveted to limit them to 10 rounds. In the US he can remove the rivet for 170mm of freedom.