Rifle Training: Introductory and onward.

[TCz]

Currently, I only shoot pistols. I am fixin' to change that this summer. I want to take a series of courses over the next 1-2 years in order to take me from a novice to a competent rifle shooter. My question is this: What do y'all recommend as far as a logical progression to accomplish this?

Goals for these courses:
Fundamental rifle marksmanship skills. I want to get these down solid before anything else.
Understanding of the mechanics of rifle shooting (proper stance, recoil control, breathing,etc...)
Exposure to the various types of rifle shooting My primary motivation for this is for defense and 3-gun, but I want to have at least passing familiarity with other types as well.
Achieve competency I want to have a level of competency roughly analogous to an advanced score at AFHF, whatever that equivalent is for a rifle.

ETA: I am not completely unversed with rifles: I shot a fair amount with the Boy Scouts when I was in it. However, I want to start at the beginning without any bad habits.

[LittleLebowski]

I would start with a basic service pistol class then an Appleseed shoot. Pistol shooting is much harder than shooting a rifle but if you start out with a pistol, the rifle will be even easier.

[LittleLebowski]

Forgot to add that Failure2Stop's carbine class is the one carbine class that I've found to be similar to what Todd does with AFHF and that F2S is doing some classes in Texas......

[TCz]

I would start with a basic service pistol class then an Appleseed shoot. Pistol shooting is much harder than shooting a rifle but if you start out with a pistol, the rifle will be even easier.

I may not get that much out of a basic pistol class... I just finished AFHF.

I like the idea of the Appleseed shoot though, and I will check out Failure2Stop.

[LittleLebowski]

Then Appleseed and F2S. if you did AFHF, the learning curve won't be terribly hard. F2S teaches all of the basics during the long range portion of his class as well.

[JAD]

I haven't taken it (my interest in long guns wanes more than it waxes) but I think GJM considers Gunsite's 270 the gold standard in rifle classes, and I consider him an absolute SME on the general purpose rifle. That is, assuming you meant 'rifle' rather than 'carbine.' There are /lots/ of good carbine classes out there.

[TCz]

I haven't taken it (my interest in long guns wanes more than it waxes) but I think GJM considers Gunsite's 270 the gold standard in rifle classes, and I consider him an absolute SME on the general purpose rifle. That is, assuming you meant 'rifle' rather than 'carbine.' There are /lots/ of good carbine classes out there.

To be honest, I am looking for both rifle and carbine training, probably starting with the rifle training at Appleseed. I think the more precision-oriented type of shooting will do a better job of instilling fundamentals initially (I am open to correction; this is merely my untutored perception). I will seek carbine training after I have a firm grasp of the fundamentals of long gun shooting. As I said, my motivation for wanting to do this is primarily for defense and 3-gun, but I want to start on the ground and build on a good foundation of fundamental skills before I branch out.

[jar]

You can't beat Appleseed for fundamentals given that it's almost free.

[orionz06]

I would definitely link up with F2S in Texas.

[theblacknight]

I would definitely link up with F2S in Texas.




+1

[Dr. No]

I also teach a 'foundation carbine' class which is mainly oriented towards AR15 style rifles. I believe 1-2 are things that are normally covered in a basic rifle class, and 4 is more of an intermediate rifle course. 3 will depend on what discipline you're seeking instruction from, but I see that more as a function rather than a form. IE: the basic skills will translate to whatever discipline you want to get involved in. The main difference you will find is a "precision rifle" school vs a "carbine rifle" school. Precision is going to be more oriented towards accuracy and involve distances of 100-1000y, where as carbine is going to be more oriented towards manipulation and accuracy in the 0-300y range.

YMMV.

[texag]

I would definitely link up with F2S in Texas.

If one was to plan on doing this, the 1st weekend of October would be a very good time to be at CCC.

[rob_s]

I haven't trained with everyone, but I've trained with a lot, and if what you want is proper fundamentals training from someone what has a breadth AND depth of knowledge in shooting, you can't beat Randy Cain. I have taken his Carbine class (twice, I think) his AK class, and his Practical Rifle class and they are all virtually identical with the differences coming in terms of tweaking positions for the limitations of the platform (such as what to do about a magazine with an auto-loader in the positions) and manipulations specific to the firearm (such as how to keep a bolt-action topped up with ammo).

In the recent Practical Rifle course I took with him, Randy said "I think position shooting is the essence of being a rifleman", and I happen to agree with him.

http://www.guntactics.com/Rifle.htm

Later on you can go take a Defoor, or Lamb, or McNamara (I've trained with all three, so I'm using examples from my own experiences) class where they turn some of the traditional positions on their heads, or talk about what really matters in each position and how to use it in a fight, but IMO you need to understand the fundamentals of the positions first.

ETA:
I have also seen, in every one of those other classes, shooters who would have benefited greatly from having hand Randy's class first. Some of them will now NEVER go take the Cain class because they think they're beyond it and they're making a mistake not doing so. They may get through the "advanced" classes with the real-deal guys, and they may even enjoy them more, but they would be better shooters if they'd have taken Randy's class first, and they would still be better shooters if they'd correct the mistake after the fact.

[Suvorov]

As a resident of Texas, I would highly recommend checking out and heading on up/over Nacogdoches this fall for Paul Howe's Tactical Rifle course. Paul Howe is not as well known as many of the other guys in the business, but he is every bit as well respected. He comes from the same unit as Kyle Lamb and Larry Vickers. In the past, he had focused most of his efforts on LEO training but has branched out to civilians as well.

What I like about Paul's methods is that he is extremely fundamentals based. His basic TR course will not have you doing roll over prone or firing huge volumes of fires as you would get in a MagPul class, rather his classes are designed to give you a strong foundation in the fundamentals of shooting your carbine. He concludes the course with a rather humorous section on the care and feeding of your rifle. With that basis, you can then proceed to the more advanced and colorful shooting techniques. I attended his course after having shot ARs and M16s for almost 20 years and I learned an immense amount. A big goal of mine is to be able to take and complete his instructor courses.

Paul's school is CSAT http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/

I would recommend him regardless, but since you are within the same state (granted it is a BIG state), it is really a no-brainier.

[Tony Muhlenkamp]

I haven't trained with everyone, but I've trained with a lot, and if what you want is proper fundamentals training from someone what has a breadth AND depth of knowledge in shooting, you can't beat Randy Cain. I have taken his Carbine class (twice, I think) his AK class, and his Practical Rifle class and they are all virtually identical with the differences coming in terms of tweaking positions for the limitations of the platform (such as what to do about a magazine with an auto-loader in the positions) and manipulations specific to the firearm (such as how to keep a bolt-action topped up with ammo).

In the recent Practical Rifle course I took with him, Randy said "I think position shooting is the essence of being a rifleman", and I happen to agree with him.

http://www.guntactics.com/Rifle.htm

Later on you can go take a Defoor, or Lamb, or McNamara (I've trained with all three, so I'm using examples from my own experiences) class where they turn some of the traditional positions on their heads, or talk about what really matters in each position and how to use it in a fight, but IMO you need to understand the fundamentals of the positions first.


Agreed. I just posted announcements for Randy Cain classes in the respective training forums. If you are at all interested in what Rob S is saying, come check them out.

[TCz]

Agreed. I just posted announcements for Randy Cain classes in the respective training forums. If you are at all interested in what Rob S is saying, come check them out.

Thanks, Tony, I'll do that.

[Johnny Thujone]

I find fundamentals and position shooting are commonly overlooked in both the .mil and civilian word in favor of sexy high speed running.

Running, gaming, and "CQB" styled work all have their places, but it pains me when people don't have an idea how to get past 50m.

How much property/space do you have available to you? A good match pellet gun with irons and 25-50m of space can do WONDERS for your position shooting, in terms of both assessment and improvement. (Sitting, various styles of prone, standing, kneeling, squating, etc.)

Look into a quality .22. I have a CZ 452 Varmint that's a 1MOA gun out of the box. It has glass on it that's worth double its value. It has probably done more for me than anything else in regards to reinforcing fundamentals. (One of my favorite drills is 10-20 black pasties on a piece of printer paper at 50m. 5 shots per pasty with my reticle obscuring the target.)