Setting wrist angle - AIWB draw

[cornstalker]

I am curious how the principle of setting your wrist angle applies to an AIWB draw. If it does, at what point during the process does it occur?

Mr_White
AsianJedi
GJM

[AsianJedi]

I am curious how the principle of setting your wrist angle applies to an AIWB draw. If it does, at what point during the process does it occur?

Mr_White
AsianJedi
GJM

What’s your hand starting position? Relaxed, high thoracic, etc?

[cornstalker]

What’s your hand starting position? Relaxed, high thoracic, etc?

That may vary greatly, but for the sake of conversation could we discuss high thoracic?

[Mr_White]

I am curious how the principle of setting your wrist angle applies to an AIWB draw. If it does, at what point during the process does it occur?

Mr_White
AsianJedi
GJM

If I understand you right, I think it's pretty important in the AIWB draw. That's because the AIWB position forces the wrist into a different (much more bent - medially, I guess?) position than it will have when firing. That change has to happen sometime after the gun is lifted. For me, 'setting my wrist angle' involves a significant feeling of back-pressure on the wrist (so laterally, I guess?) and it occurs after the gun is lifted and as the hands are joining. I want the wrist angle set as the number three position is established. More back pressure on the strong hand wrist like that also is a pretty frequent antidote to the issue of first shots going to the support side with an AIWB draw. I've seen that a lot - I think it's a pitfall due to the wrist angle issue. And I've seen more conscious back pressure on the wrist often help.

[Clusterfrack]

I just shot some high speed video. My strong side wrist reaches its final angle after the support hand begins to form its grip, but before the grip is fully made. I feel like my support hand is as or more important in setting the index. If I draw SHO, my wrist angle is still changing up until almost full extension.

[Clay1]

If I understand you right, I think it's pretty important in the AIWB draw. That's because the AIWB position forces the wrist into a different (much more bent - medially, I guess?) position than it will have when firing. That change has to happen sometime after the gun is lifted. For me, 'setting my wrist angle' involves a significant feeling of back-pressure on the wrist (so laterally, I guess?) and it occurs after the gun is lifted and as the hands are joining. I want the wrist angle set as the number three position is established. More back pressure on the strong hand wrist like that also is a pretty frequent antidote to the issue of first shots going to the support side with an AIWB draw. I've seen that a lot - I think it's a pitfall due to the wrist angle issue. And I've seen more conscious back pressure on the wrist often help.

I'm not on the same page, I can tell. Please elaborate more about "back-pressure on the wrist (so laterally, I guess?) and it occurs after the gun is lifted and as the hands are joining."

Thanks

[Clay1]

I just shot some high speed video. My strong side wrist reaches its final angle after the support hand begins to form its grip, but before the grip is fully made. I feel like my support hand is as or more important in setting the index. If I draw SHO, my wrist angle is still changing up until almost full extension.

Please share the video if possible. Me, I wouldn't know how, but would love to see what you have been up to.

[Clusterfrack]

Please share the video if possible. Me, I wouldn't know how, but would love to see what you have been up to.

I can’t figure out how to post video while maintaining PERSEC. Here are some screen caps. Par time was 0.8s to 1 dry fire shot, fairly sporty, at least for me.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/93544401df976ce24f2624d0272a5ad6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/f741bc53596cf0d7bed6a391d94ec6e1.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/9bef0dc089aa16b5f686b420610380e7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/8f7239beced9c528f3fc2ec4a7503d92.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/f843222b7f449f6dd3e029969f218076.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/c927befaf0b94f98545e4b87b25faa60.jpg

[Mr_White]

I'm not on the same page, I can tell. Please elaborate more about "back-pressure on the wrist (so laterally, I guess?) and it occurs after the gun is lifted and as the hands are joining."

Thanks

Here’s what I mean:

This is my strong hand wrist during count 1 (establish master grip) of the draw.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49536542432_6c7fe9b956_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2itnJeN)20200214_161359 (https://flic.kr/p/2itnJeN) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

This is my strong hand wrist during counts 3 and 4 (hands join and gun goes to full extension, respectively) of the draw.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49536311321_fd1da65a34_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2itmxx8)20200214_161417 (https://flic.kr/p/2itmxx8) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

The second picture is what I mean by ‘back pressure on the strong hand wrist’. I make that change after the gun is lifted out of the holster, and as the hands are joining. I believe it to be important to get that done as early as possible in the draw, because the wrist angle is key to index, which supports highly efficient sighted fire. Not sufficiently setting the wrist (insufficient back pressure), particularly when drawing from AIWB, often leads to index and shots drifting toward the shooter’s support side.

[scjbash]

Not sufficiently setting the wrist (insufficient back pressure), particularly when drawing from AIWB, often leads to index and shots drifting toward the shooter’s support side.

When you were here last year I think I pushed the first shot to my support side in both Bill drills and one split Bill, and not setting the wrist early enough was a big part of that. Getting the grip set early enough in the draw was probably the hardest thing for me when I switched to AIWB.

[Cory]

Threads like this are why I joined pistol-forum.

Does a reverse cant on holster change or influence the wrist angle? I have a large amount of ulnar flexion when I establish grip in holster, and start to straighten that some as the support hand joins.

Would changing the cant of my holster to be closer to my final grip angle be beneficial to my draw? I mean it would theoretically make things more efficent right?

I may not make that change, because the current amount of cant aids greatly in concealment. But from a pure shooting perspective I would be curious to hear thoughts on cants impact on wrist angle and draw.

-Cory

[Clay1]

I can’t figure out how to post video while maintaining PERSEC. Here are some screen caps. Par time was 0.8s to 1 dry fire shot, fairly sporty, at least for me.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/93544401df976ce24f2624d0272a5ad6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/f741bc53596cf0d7bed6a391d94ec6e1.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/9bef0dc089aa16b5f686b420610380e7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/8f7239beced9c528f3fc2ec4a7503d92.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/f843222b7f449f6dd3e029969f218076.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200215/c927befaf0b94f98545e4b87b25faa60.jpg

Two things that I made note of from the pictures: 1) you had a full, firing grip on the firearm before it cleared the holster. 2) you did not marry the grip in your center torso but underneath what I am presuming is your dominant eye. Thanks for sharing.

[cornstalker]

ulnar flexion

Could you dumb that down a little for me, please... Lol.

[Clay1]

Here’s what I mean:

This is my strong hand wrist during count 1 (establish master grip) of the draw.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49536542432_6c7fe9b956_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2itnJeN)20200214_161359 (https://flic.kr/p/2itnJeN) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

This is my strong hand wrist during counts 3 and 4 (hands join and gun goes to full extension, respectively) of the draw.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49536311321_fd1da65a34_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2itmxx8)20200214_161417 (https://flic.kr/p/2itmxx8) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

The second picture is what I mean by ‘back pressure on the strong hand wrist’. I make that change after the gun is lifted out of the holster, and as the hands are joining. I believe it to be important to get that done as early as possible in the draw, because the wrist angle is key to index, which supports highly efficient sighted fire. Not sufficiently setting the wrist (insufficient back pressure), particularly when drawing from AIWB, often leads to index and shots drifting toward the shooter’s support side.


Am I right in seeing your strong hand thumb on your rear sights as you draw? I have difficulty getting what I learned in a Stressfire Class year's ago: (In the holster getting a first, final and fighting grip) I see where Modern Samurai Project indexes his drawing hand thumb on the left side of his rear sight.

That back pressure is what I call the "smile" the skin in the thumb web of hand is tight and all the way up into the beaver tail. It created a upward curve in this area and I have always refer to it as a smile. If there is any space between this smiling skin and the beaver tail, I know that my personal grip is off. Thanks for the pictures. I think that I am on the same page now.

[GJM]

Same here, wrist set as hands join from AIWB. That is with a Glock, and different pointing pistols might be different.

Interesting question is whether your vision directs the extension and alignment of the pistol, or whether your index is primary and vision confirms it. The second is faster for me.

[Clusterfrack]

A reverse cant might make it easier to bring your strong hand onto the grip, but I don't think drawing from a canted holster would be as efficient. Also, you need to be really fucking sure you don't muzzle your support hand during the draw. It's hard to gauge depth from the pics I posted, but in the 3rd frame my support hand is behind and to the left of the muzzle as it starts to tip up toward the target. A vertically oriented holster would seem to be the safest option to ensure this.

What I do like is a slightly floppy holster/belt combination. During the WHAP of the strong hand onto the grip, the gun/holster moves a bit and that helps me get my relaxed hand wrapped around the grip.


Threads like this are why I joined pistol-forum.

Does a reverse cant on holster change or influence the wrist angle? I have a large amount of ulnar flexion when I establish grip in holster, and start to straighten that some as the support hand joins.

Would changing the cant of my holster to be closer to my final grip angle be beneficial to my draw? I mean it would theoretically make things more efficent right?

I may not make that change, because the current amount of cant aids greatly in concealment. But from a pure shooting perspective I would be curious to hear thoughts on cants impact on wrist angle and draw.

-Cory

[Mr_White]

Threads like this are why I joined pistol-forum.

Does a reverse cant on holster change or influence the wrist angle? I have a large amount of ulnar flexion when I establish grip in holster, and start to straighten that some as the support hand joins.

Would changing the cant of my holster to be closer to my final grip angle be beneficial to my draw? I mean it would theoretically make things more efficent right?

I may not make that change, because the current amount of cant aids greatly in concealment. But from a pure shooting perspective I would be curious to hear thoughts on cants impact on wrist angle and draw.

-Cory

I would think reverse cant aiwb would help with the wrist angle.

Like you, I also think it would aggravate concealment. And safety (by pointing the muzzle more toward groin than with a straight drop aiwb rig.) I have not pursued reverse cant for those reasons.

[Mr_White]

Am I right in seeing your strong hand thumb on your rear sights as you draw? I have difficulty getting what I learned in a Stressfire Class year's ago: (In the holster getting a first, final and fighting grip) I see where Modern Samurai Project indexes his drawing hand thumb on the left side of his rear sight.

That back pressure is what I call the "smile" the skin in the thumb web of hand is tight and all the way up into the beaver tail. It created a upward curve in this area and I have always refer to it as a smile. If there is any space between this smiling skin and the beaver tail, I know that my personal grip is off. Thanks for the pictures. I think that I am on the same page now.

Yes. The thumb gets to the left side of the slide before the gun clears the holster. I had to look closely with high speed video to be sure. Video can be an important check on self perception.

I think I've heard MSP/Jedi has a name for the thing we both do with that thumb. I don't have a name for it but have been doing it since I started carrying aiwb.

[Cory]

Could you dumb that down a little for me, please... Lol.

I wasn't sure how to properly describe it so I googled the medical term. If you reached out to shake a hand and then bent your wrist toward your pinky that's what I'm talking about.

My holster is slightly canted, but I had wondered about gow efficent it is. My muzzle is slight toward my strong side. This gives a bit more gap between belt and grip for my fingers. This seems to have the same amount of concealment as a straight drop, but is more comfortable. I'm thinking it might not be as beneficial though.

I've not had any support hand muzzle issues, clearing garment and then getting hands up to meet has just always kept the support hand rearward until I build the support grip.

-Cory