Why P320 is so popular outside of pistol-forum

[zaitcev]

Now that we had a few massive hate fests in this forum, such as "Would you trust P320", how about we reconcile with the fact that civilians love them some P320?

I'm just back from a pistol class where I ran P320 Full Size. I only have that gun because the front strap of G19 cuts painfully into my fingers as I start to apply the grip. The cross-section of the grip on my P320 is more round at the front, so it does not hurt no matter how tight I grasp it. Before getting it, I considered putting a good bead of JB Weld on the front strap of my G19, then filing it into a desirable shape, but I decided that I wasn't handy enough to make that project a success. I fired a bit north of 1300 rounds in the class, and dry-fired perhaps a third of a half of that amount, and my fingers are fine.

But another thing I noticed is the invasion of P320 of various kinds among the students. Most still have Glocks, but I'd say P320 is at least a quarter. It wasn't like that just a year ago. Well, I had a Glock back then too.

I overheard other students discussing this and the ergonomics was the main topic. Glock users had calluses and tender spots. One guy's fingers were in band-aids all over. Another one reported to class on the second day wearing gloves. SIG users were feeling smug, I'm sure. The second topic was the complaints about the price of SIG magazines. I brought ETS magazines to the class, but to the disappointment of many, they aren't drop-free in my gun. Nobody seemed to care much about the difference in the trigger feel.

I didn't see any malfunctions aside from one Glock user having light strikes, but it was cured by a change in ammunition. Well, 1300 rounds per gun is not much. But it is safe to consider P320 reliable enough for civilian use.

I'm afraid P320 is here to stay. Even if nothing else, adoption by Army is going to see to that.

[HCM]

Taurus is here to say too.

The P320’s adoption by the army guarantees it will sell. But who is it selling to ?

Furthermore, you are in Texas and the P320 is the current issue gun of the Dps.. Many local law-enforcement agencies and civilian shooters in Texas follow the lead of the DPS. This will guarantee regional popularity.

My own agency issues a unique SKU version of the P320. Here is where I have an issue with SIG. The government contract P320’s I have seen I’ve been extremely reliable. Unfortunately I am not seeing that in commercial guns, both my own and guns run by competent shooters in local match Circles.

That tells me the P320 design is fine but SIG only ensures it is properly executed when compelled to do so. If you think about it, putting morals and ethics aside, why should they when they will still sell every P320 they make?

We have seen the same two-tiered quality control system before, most notably in law enforcement and government contract RRA and bushmaster rifles vs the same companies commercial guns.

I’ve been an agency and factory trained armorer for several different guns over the years. I have taken SIGs P320 Armorers class. Seeing the small complex parts inside the FCU did not inspire my confidence but they have survived realistic testing.

Ultimately, the issues with the P320 are “SIG” problems, not “P320” problems.

All of this is why I still carry a personal Glock vs a agency SIG despite shooting the SIG as well or better than the Glock.

PS- On the subject of ergonomics, SIG s has still failed to make sizes small and large Xgrip frames available. A modular done without modularity is a problem. Myself and several of the better shooters in my agency, or at least in my office have experienced issues with high grip resulting in unintentional activation of the slide catch in the middle of a string of fire. In fairness this has only occurred with the size medium carry grip, it has not occurred with the standard 320 grip but it has occurred on several occasions with several skilled shooters. The slide not locking back on the last shot is one thing, but a self-induced stoppage in the middle of a string of fire is unacceptable.

[HCM]

Are you running the stock recall spring in your full-size P320?

My experience with the full-size slide is that it is over sprung and tends to dip when recovering from recoil. For a civilian shooter this is easily fixed with a lighter sprain but for a work done where that is not an option I much prefer the Carry version.

[willie]

I shoot dirt clods, rocks, and stumps with my trusty handgun. For many years I popped these targets with a 1st generation S&W Model 39 made in 1956. My daddy traded a man two hogs and a gun shy bird dog for it. The hogs were wormy, and the dog would point turtles but not quail. My M-39 performed flawlessly as it consumed case after case of corrosive WW2 European surplus ammo. I loved this pistol. Mine was perfect but many others in the series had terrible performance records. Smith finally got this platform to work after tweaking it for 40 years, but then it was too late.

PF persons, who object to using Sig's, don't trust the company. The company has demonstrated suspect ethics. Those not trusting companies usually don't trust their products. Many can point to examples of defective Sig products and can connect the products to faulty policy. Here many have made a good case against Sig. The forum has a large number of members who carry guns for a living. I am a civilian who carries a handgun and usually base my choices on what PF professionals recommend. I do not subscribe to the idea that a brand might be good enough for a civilian to carry.

Your Sig will most likely serve you well. I urge you to buy a second one so you can practice with one and carry the other.

[FreedomFries]

I just bought my first P320 this month. It is fine and hasn't done anything lame yet. I like it. I can see it being mainstream popular because of the modular design. By that, I don't mean that most people will actually change calibers, barrel length, and grip length for specific reasons. Mostly, they will just feel confident in stippling their grips with a soldering iron or painting patterns on it because they can just swap it out to look brand new for about 40 bucks if they don't like their mods anymore.

I'm a low volume shooter compared to most members here. I shot about 4-5K rounds from my pistols last year. Some of you I am sure do that in a month or two. Most gun owners spend much less time at the range than even I do. Let's face it, most people don't shoot more than a case a year. They just want to have cool looking stuff that looks military or pro competition shooter approved. Then they want to spend hours customizing it with paint jobs and stippling so they can admire how pro it looks. It's probably just like any other hobby. For example, when I rode road bikes, I wanted to have a cool carbon fiber bike with nice components that looked like pro racing stuff. I'm not a sponsored rider. I'm just a fat slow guy who wants to have cool looking stuff.

Also, Sig is still perceived as a luxury brand by most gun owners.

[Dan_S]

A couple friends of mine, who I highly regard, have jumped to the SIG P320. I’ve fired a couple, and I wasn’t particularly wowed, but I think they certainly offer some interesting options, and some very competent and intelligent people have made the switch. Not sure why there’s so much controversy over them. It’s not like ANY mechanical device is perfect, or will satisfy everyone.

[tlong17]

Taurus is here to say too.

The P320’s adoption by the army guarantees it will sell. But who is it selling to ?

Furthermore, you are in Texas and the P320 is the current issue gun of the Dps.. Many local law-enforcement agencies and civilian shooters in Texas follow the lead of the DPS. This will guarantee regional popularity.

My own agency issues a unique SKU version of the P320. Here is where I have an issue with SIG. The government contract P320’s I have seen I’ve been extremely reliable. Unfortunately I am not seeing that in commercial guns, both my own and guns run by competent shooters in local match Circles.

That tells me the P320 design is fine but SIG only ensures it is properly executed when compelled to do so. If you think about it, putting morals and ethics aside, why should they when they will still sell every P320 they make?

We have seen the same two-tiered quality control system before, most notably in law enforcement and government contract RRA and bushmaster rifles vs the same companies commercial guns.

I’ve been an agency and factory trained armorer for several different guns over the years. I have taken SIGs P320 Armorers class. Seeing the small complex parts inside the FCU did not inspire my confidence but they have survived realistic testing.

Ultimately, the issues with the P320 are “SIG” problems, not “P320” problems.

All of this is why I still carry a personal Glock vs a agency SIG despite shooting the SIG as well or better than the Glock.

PS- On the subject of ergonomics, SIG s has still failed to make sizes small and large Xgrip frames available. A modular done without modularity is a problem. Myself and several of the better shooters in my agency, or at least in my office have experienced issues with high grip resulting in unintentional activation of the slide catch in the middle of a string of fire. In fairness this has only occurred with the size medium carry grip, it has not occurred with the standard 320 grip but it has occurred on several occasions with several skilled shooters. The slide not locking back on the last shot is one thing, but a self-induced stoppage in the middle of a string of fire is unacceptable.

I have this issue consistently with the x compact as the slide release is in an even worse position than the carry. Waiting for a grip module that has that area built up more other than the standard one. Wondering what the Wilson combat module does to help.

[zaitcev]

I am intrigued by the Wilson Combad grip module, because I would prefer a straight grip. That said, my fingers do not hurt with the stock P320, and I'm not at the level where the presence or absence of palm swell makes an impact on the score, so the $65 would be wasted.

[HCM]

I have this issue consistently with the x compact as the slide release is in an even worse position than the carry. Waiting for a grip module that has that area built up more other than the standard one. Wondering what the Wilson combat module does to help.

The Wilson is interesting but not something we would be able to use at work.

[HopetonBrown]

SIG users were feeling smug, I'm sure.

It's sad and pathetic that you and your smug fanbois give 2 shits about what anyone else is shooting in a class. Did you feel equally smug when you drove by a broken down Honda Civic in your Toyota Corolla? That's all these guns are, just econo duty guns squirted in molds. They're all the same. You're not special because you chose one over the other.

Here's a story about you and your eye rolling buddies.

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/287794

[Mjolnir]

It's sad and pathetic that you and your smug fanbois give 2 shits about what anyone else is shooting in a class. Did you feel equally smug when you drove by a broken down Honda Civic in your Toyota Corolla? That's all these guns are, just econo duty guns squirted in molds. They're all the same. You're not special because you chose one over the other.

Here's a story about you and your eye rolling buddies.

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/287794

Why the hate?

I did not perceive that the OP was smug at all.

It’s just a pistol...


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[TexasSiegfried]

It's sad and pathetic that you and your smug fanbois give 2 shits about what anyone else is shooting in a class. Did you feel equally smug when you drove by a broken down Honda Civic in your Toyota Corolla? That's all these guns are, just econo duty guns squirted in molds. They're all the same. You're not special because you chose one over the other.

Here's a story about you and your eye rolling buddies.

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/287794I'm fascinated that, as an implied rebuke of someone's incorrect view of things, you yourself cite someone who attributed the authorship of the Three Musketeers to Hugo rather than Dumas...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Warped Mindless]

If SIG could fix their horrible QC they would likely become the new king of the hill. That said, a lot of very competent people are switching and for good reasons.

If not for Shield Arms renewing interest in the 43x/48 with its 15rds mags then I suspect the sig p365 would have an even bigger market share.

Glocks needs to start innovating and releasing models with some better ergonomics and other improvements if they wish to stay as popular as they are.

Im also starting to see a lot more HKs being carried too. We have so many great options now that the days lf Glock being the big king may soon be over. Lots of great guns out there now!

[Tensaw]

If SIG could fix their horrible QC they would likely become the new king of the hill. That said, a lot of very competent people are switching and for good reasons.
If not for Shield Arms renewing interest in the 43x/48 with its 15rds mags then I suspect the sig p365 would have an even bigger market share.
Glocks needs to start innovating and releasing models with some better ergonomics and other improvements if they wish to stay as popular as they are.
Im also starting to see a lot more HKs being carried too. We have so many great options now that the days lf Glock being the big king may soon be over. Lots of great guns out there now!

WM ain’t wrong. Shot a friend’s P365 side-by-side with my 43X a few weeks ago. Once I stopped trying to point it like a Glock (grip angle) I think I shot it better than my 43X. For me, the hang-up is that I have been living with Glocks for over 20 years, understand the system, and am heavily invested in them. And then there is the whole Sig saga. But for Shield Arms rolling out the 15 round mag, I would likely be rocking a P365/XL right about now. But for now, the Shield Arms mag has scratched that itch. Kinda crazy. The G17 was incredibly innovative and paradigm-changing when it was initially developed. And it Gaston pretty much stopped right there. My Gen 1 G17 isn’t all that much different than my 19X.

[fixer]

Can't answer why p320 is so popular. Then again when it comes to new mechanical features on a personal firearm I'm happily in the Luddite end of the spectrum.

[Warped Mindless]

WM ain’t wrong. Shot a friend’s P365 side-by-side with my 43X a few weeks ago. Once I stopped trying to point it like a Glock (grip angle) I think I shot it better than my 43X. For me, the hang-up is that I have been living with Glocks for over 20 years, understand the system, and am heavily invested in them. And then there is the whole Sig saga. But for Shield Arms rolling out the 15 round mag, I would likely be rocking a P365/XL right about now. But for now, the Shield Arms mag has scratched that itch. Kinda crazy. The G17 was incredibly innovative and paradigm-changing when it was initially developed. And it Gaston pretty much stopped right there. My Gen 1 G17 isn’t all that much different than my 19X.

Yeah, everytime I shoot a SIG I consider switching but I just have to much time, money, and accessories all invested in Glock right now.

[gato naranja]

I'm afraid P320 is here to stay. Even if nothing else, adoption by Army is going to see to that.

Good for the P320. May it ever do the trick for those who think any particular handgun will make them happy forever and ever.

[orionz06]

It's a gun that has a lot to offer and lots of folks view the de facto standard Glock as suffering at times. There are things folks need to overcome with a Glock that don't exist with other guns, take it for what it is. Some of those people shoot 320's. Hell, sometimes the only reason is that it's not a Glock.

[GJM]

Sig with the 320, has finally dislodged SA and the XD, to become the most hated company and gun, by gun forum participants. While hate for Sig and the 320 is strong, Sig’s individual products are either very competitive or leaders in their segment.

Want a Production or Carry Optics pistol, the 320 Legion is now the gun that is most common.

Want a small EDC, the 365 and 365 XL are both very popular.

Want a pistol with an optic from the factory, the 320 RX is most common.

Want to do LEGO with your pistol, the 320 made that work.

Want your own copy of the military pistol, the 320 does that.

Want a Competition PCC that shoots factory ammo softly, the MPX is the leading choice.

Sig is very easy to hate but also very hard to compete with.

[GJM]

There are things folks need to overcome with a Glock that don't exist with other guns, take it for what it is.

If only Glock made their rear sight dovetails wider, so people could push that rear sight further right, 99 percent of the Glock complaints would go away!

[M2CattleCo]

They just need a rear sight with the notch offset.

I should start a company that makes Glock trigger jobs and offset notch sights.

I could call it EL Snacho tactical

[spinmove_]

Why is the P320 popular outside PF? Most people either didn’t even know about the “Voluntary Upgrade” or didn’t think past the surface and realize it was a shady move.

Couple that lack of disposition with the fact that it’s easier to shoot than a Glock, it’s more comfortable, and the Army bought it, and you have a recipe for a piece of small arms tech that isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. If it weren’t for Ron Cohen being a blatantly amoral shyster I’d probably be right there with the rest of the P320 peoples. It’s a great concept. They probably even have reliable 10 round OEM magazines.

Glock hasn’t done anything truly innovative since 1982. All they’ve really done is found creative ways to repackage the first gen G17 and sell it to you over and over again. I mean, if it’s stupid and it works, is it really that stupid? For 1980’s tech it was way ahead of it’s time. It’s now 2020 though and people are starting to wake up to the fact that Glock isn’t the only company capable of making a decent pistol.

[Greg]

They just need a rear sight with the notch offset.

I should start a company that makes Glock trigger jobs and offset notch sights.

I could call it EL Snacho tactical

I’m your first investor.

[Zincwarrior]

Sig Legions are all over the place in the competitions I have been to in the last six months. They seem to be a favorite for Production/SSP and CO.

The 320s now generally come with removable top plates for COs, have night sights, a much better trigger, and is somewhat customizable right out of the box with easy grip changes.

What does Glock have again? They are at the bottom of the curve.


It’s important to remember that if anyone has a different opinion, or likes something different, than you it’s solely because they hate you/it. And the more they articulate the reasons why, the stronger the hate.

So true!

[Jared]

I think it was well covered in the “trust a 320” thread, but it’s a good comment nonetheless. I think most people agree that the 320 is a reliable design if executed properly. The flip side of that is do we trust SIG’s manufacturing and QC to execute that design properly 90+ % of the time. A lot of folks here, because of their own experiences with SIG do not have that trust.

One of the huge issues with SIG is they’ve repeatedly used their customers as beta testers. They’ve released designs early that really needed more testing to find the bugs to the public. Then the public found the bugs. That burns a lot of asses. It erodes trust. It doesn’t inspire confidence.

One of the reasons for the popularity is marketing. SIG’s marketing department is top notch. I don’t blame them one bit for playing up the military selection. I don’t blame them one bit for advertising their wares aggressively to make a profit. I just wish they’d use a little bit of that marketing money on QC and making damn sure the product is the best it can possibly be.

[MrInox]

I cant speak for anyone else but I like my p320C. Its run fine over its admittedly still low round count and just chugs along. In fact I ditched my px4 compact because I shot the p320 noticably better (and the beretta's DA pull proved to be something of an irritant for me during long range outings.....funny how the things that bother me about certain pistols become sharply defined when shooting 500-1000 rounds in a session...a big part of why I got out of glocks...)

[HeavyDuty]

I’ll be honest, only one thing has kept me from trying a SIG striker gun - no SCD.

[AJD21]

What is exactly different in terms of quality of parts between a contract/Leo/mil P320 and a commercial P320?

Not perceived but exact.

[spinmove_]

I’ll be honest, only one thing has kept me from trying a SIG striker gun - no SCD.

While I’m a huge fan of the SCD and have it on both of my G19s, the fact that there isn’t one for every other variant of striker pistol isn’t a huge detractor. Prior to the SCD people were safely holstering SFA pistols for decades.

The SCD is definitely nice to have, but it’s not a NEED.

[Nephrology]

Sig with the 320, has finally dislodged SA and the XD, to become the most hated company and gun, by gun forum participants. While hate for Sig and the 320 is strong, Sig’s individual products are either very competitive or leaders in their segment.

Want a Production or Carry Optics pistol, the 320 Legion is now the gun that is most common.

Want a small EDC, the 365 and 365 XL are both very popular.

Want a pistol with an optic from the factory, the 320 RX is most common.

Want to do LEGO with your pistol, the 320 made that work.

Want your own copy of the military pistol, the 320 does that.

Want a Competition PCC that shoots factory ammo softly, the MPX is the leading choice.

Sig is very easy to hate but also very hard to compete with.

IMO they are the Fiat-Chrysler of the gun world, in almost every way. This analogy is equal parts compliment and criticism.

[TCinVA]

What does Glock have again?


A resistance to making the kind of radical design changes Sig has made in pursuit of market share because Glock already has it.

They also have the reality that at the moment they are selling every gun they can make, and doing so at a profit.

Glock doesn't have much pressure to make radical changes.

The FBI probably had the most leverage in getting some changes out of Glock (because unfortunately some people at the top really do believe that whole "perfection" marketing bullshit) and Glock seemed to be interested enough in keeping big federal LE contracts to make guns that met the requirements as minimally as possible.

Glock is selling reliable, durable and now even pretty damn accurate handguns (Gen5 guns are, by all reports I've seen, very accurate) as fast as they can make them. This despite the fact that the ergonomics suck for most people's hands (left syndrome with Glocks is **not** simply a function of jerking the trigger) and the thing still requires pressing the trigger to take it down for cleaning.

Sig's concept behind the 320 is compelling and their manufacturing capability is probably one of the best in the firearms industry. They have made significant investments in automation that some other companies have not, helping them reduce per-unit costs.

Their Achilles heel seems to be a reliance on sub-contracted MIM parts and an inability to get quality control for those bits in hand. (Which might be a contributor to their firing-when-dropped problems)


I’ll be honest, only one thing has kept me from trying a SIG striker gun - no SCD.

That's one of the primary reasons I'm carrying a Gen5 Glock. I carry AIWB and it has the SCD. The functionality of an SCD is a requirement for a pistol I'm going to be reholstering tens of thousands of times in a year.

[HeavyDuty]

While I’m a huge fan of the SCD and have it on both of my G19s, the fact that there isn’t one for every other variant of striker pistol isn’t a huge detractor. Prior to the SCD people were safely holstering SFA pistols for decades.

The SCD is definitely nice to have, but it’s not a NEED.

It is for me.

I started shooting PPC discipline as a teen back in the dark ages, and it’s very deeply ingrained for me to reholster with thumb on hammer. I feel the SCD adds a layer of safety not offered by striker guns in general. Glock leg is a thing...

[Danjojo]

QC, 3rd world MIM parts, and company ethos talk aside, when looking at p320 9mm compacts - too short a grip, bad placement of the mag release...would have to be careful to move middle finger from blocking release and inserting mags killing pinky finger or grabbing a glove. Didn't seem like there was a nice spot for support thumb, a beavertail to poke my stomach carrying AIWB, OEM mags coming from various companies with varying quality, etc.

System/design with a lot of promise in the future and it's easy to see how they sell well.

A 40 or 45 version of the X5 for certain roles might have been likely purchased already but all fancy models seem to be strictly 9mm. Waiting a bit more to try out 365 series vs a couple competitors that are on the way.

[Grey]

On paper I like everything about the 320 and even fan boy over the legion bull shit but Sig as a company is out for me. I know my glock is going to go boom everytime I pull the trigger and i can neglect the shit out of it.

Scd makes me way more comfortable pointing a 147 grain hollowpoint at my dick/artery.

I don't need the best gun because im probably never going to outshoot my glock because i dont have the time to spend the hours of hard work to get to that point at this stage in my life.

I need a gun that can shoot a fist sized group at 10 to 25 yards and goes bang reliably. With the shit ive seen sig do over the years I dont want to take that bet with them.

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[TCinVA]

It's also worth noting that the 320 is being marketed aggressively.

And part of that is selling them cheap. The ability to roll in to a police department and present a package of a pistol and an optic for what just a Glock will cost is going to attract buyers.

[zaitcev]

Why is the P320 popular outside PF? Most people either didn’t even know about the “Voluntary Upgrade” or didn’t think past the surface and realize it was a shady move.
You may be correct overall. General public is poorly informed. But I think the overwhelming majority of P320 users who bother to come to 2-day classes must be aware of the drop safety and, by extension, SIG's ethics. Nonetheless, it didn't come up at all.

Personally, I think that although SIG's conduct in P320 case was reprehensible, they were sufficiently shamed that they turned it around in P365. I never saw any gun company disclose actual failure rates. Cerntainly not HK or Glock. But SIG did. That puts SIG ahead in customer relations.

Now I wish SIG disclosed changes they made to parts, so users could determine if their parts need changing or not. Instead, their answer is "send it in, we'll have a look". This is no different from what Glock say, actually. The difference is that Glock's part have numbers on them, which are completey undocumented, but with a bit of crowd-sourced deduction can be used as a guide.


One of the huge issues with SIG is they’ve repeatedly used their customers as beta testers.

I happen to disagree on this, at least in part. The failures of P365 were rare enough that I'm not surprised that SIG's development testing didn't catch them. Perhaps they could do a better job, or perhaps not. But speaking in general, "using customers as beta testers" is absolutely unavoidable.

No gun came out of the gate without problems. For example, it took Soviets from 1945 to 1959 to produce a definitive AK. Its beta versions with known failure points were in used in combat and in fact widely exported, as well as produced under license.

Frankly I became more sympathetic because of my own product, a magazine adapter for 9mm ARs. I certainly used my customers as beta testers, by the above definition. There's just no other way. I only asked them not to use my adapters for self-defense, at least for now.

[Nephrology]

It is for me.

I started shooting PPC discipline as a teen back in the dark ages, and it’s very deeply ingrained for me to reholster with thumb on hammer. I feel the SCD adds a layer of safety not offered by striker guns in general. Glock leg is a thing...

I've always been more or less all in on Glocks but the SCD clinched it for me. I traded in my pair of Shields a few years ago at a small loss to buy a pair of G43s instead, purely because of the SCD. No regrets whatsoever.

Given that I spend far more time carrying a Glock than I do shooting one, the SCD is probably the best value aftermarket pistol part I've ever bought, about as important (or more) as quality night sights. Not that I have any reason to, but I would not switch to another striker pistol platform without a similar device.





That's one of the primary reasons I'm carrying a Gen5 Glock. I carry AIWB and it has the SCD. The functionality of an SCD is a requirement for a pistol I'm going to be reholstering tens of thousands of times in a year.


Said it better than I could.

[HCM]

What is exactly different in terms of quality of parts between a contract/Leo/mil P320 and a commercial P320?

Not perceived but exact.

I can tell you for sure the coatings on the FCU parts.

The GOV contract FCUs I’m familiar with are basically M17/18 FCUs without the thumb safety.

Most of the QC issues at SIG are not assembly errors or machining errors on parts made by SOG. They are mostly QC issues with small parts made by SIG contractors. For several years now, SIG Has had issues with their contractors and small parts, going back to the classic DA/SA guns.

SIGs parts suppliers aren’t bad, they just make parts to the QC level and reject rate SIG is willing to pay for. Just like all “FN” AR barrels are not equal.

I suspect SIG pays for two levels of QC- one for the coated /GOV parts and one for commercial parts.

I can tell you that after SIG began using MIM and modified parts in classic P series they were still supping our guns with the original parts per our contract.

[RevolverRob]

I've sold enough guns over the years to know five really important things.

1) If the Army uses it half the people in the world will buy one.

2) If a local PD/State PD uses it, the other half will buy one.

3) The other-other half are largely too ignorant to know better and will trust the salesman to direct them to the right choice.

4) The salesman will sell whatever is in the case that favors their personal biases.

5) Whatever is cheapest sells fastest.

The Sig P320 fits all of those criteria, the Army uses it; local and state PDs use it; it appeals to ignorant buyers by virtue of all its features; it appeals to ignorant sales people by virtue of all it's (nigh useless) features (swappable fire control group! So you can get different frame sizes...who here swaps their 320 FCG regularly between frame sizes, instead of having two+ guns?); and finally it's cheap.

That's why it is popular.

___

RE: Why I hate the P320, I don't. I just don't care about low price or the compromised principles of Sig. In fact, I don't care for compromised principles, period. This is why I don't own products from a lot of companies. And price does not influence me any longer. I'm privileged in that sense, I can afford to spend pretty much what I want to spend on various products, so I can look at the producer, as opposed to just the product.

[CWM11B]

Damn near all of the failures of what we know as the 320 came up in the M17 trials, including the drop issue.

In 1985, the 92 became the hotness after DoD adopted it, and it got a further boost with movies like "Lethal Weapon" and "Die Hard" and a bazillion others. Talk to some old timers in the gun owner world about trying to buy a S&W Model 29 after "Dirty Harry" came out. The Walter Mitty effect is a factor in a lot of these purchases.

It's been said over and over in these threads, most of us dont hate the 320, we dont trust the parent company. Big difference. You have one. You like it. Cool. A bunch of other folks have them. They like them. Cool. I dont have one and don't like the company. Cool. I'm not going to try and talk anyone out of theirs and dont need validation for what I carry. Nor am I in the business of handing it out to others who seek it either.

[Guinnessman]

I would bet we have some “Closet” P320 shooters on the forum. Shooting a Sig 320 is like riding a moped, it’s fun until your friends or forum members see you.😜🤣

[45dotACP]

It's also worth noting that the 320 is being marketed aggressively.

And part of that is selling them cheap. The ability to roll in to a police department and present a package of a pistol and an optic for what just a Glock will cost is going to attract buyers.Isn't that sorta how Glock unseated their competitors?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

Part of the genius of a Glock is that, at least according to TLG, a retarded monkey can perform a detailed disassembly and reassembly. The components are durable and easy to put together-pretty much anywhere, in any environment.

SIG's genius is that the realization that a huge majority of sellers are simply never going to have a need or desire to take things down beyond the field-stripping level. Instead, they concentrated on easily replaceable/substitutable/swappable components that resonated with the actual users.

I suspect the detailed disassembly/reassembly of the P320 FCU would at least provide a momentary challenge to an HK armorer. So as long as they work, most simply either don't care, or are organizationally forbidden (probably eminently wisely in most cases) to take things down beyond field-stripping.

Which platform will be my choice for a deep woods extended hike or hunting trip? Likely a Glock. Which one will I choose for daily urban EDC? My acceptable choices obviously widen-and to date I'm very comfortable in carrying my P320 RX in it's current X Carry guise.

Best, Jon

[CCT125US]

They just need a rear sight with the notch offset.


Already exists, Heinie has you covered. Never had a centered notch from them. When I pointed that out to them, I was informed it was due to Glocks typically shooting left. The CS rep didn't know how to respond to the fact that it was on an HK sight.....

[Jared]

I would bet we have some “Closet” P320 shooters on the forum. Shooting a Sig 320 is like riding a moped, it’s fun until your friends or forum members see you.😜🤣

Oh, I’ll come right out and say I currently own a 320 X-Carry and actually shoot the damn thing as good as I can any other striker fired 9. I just went into it with my eyes wide open and I’m not currently using it in any capacity besides range use. That may change someday or I may sell it. Jury is out.

I don’t begrudge someone from saying Fuck SIG, I will not buy from them. I don’t begrudge the folks that have one and love it either.

[learnerpermitted]

When the P320 was still pretty new, I traded a Gen3 G19 for a full-size P320 9mm when I gave up on getting my hands to grip the Gen3 correctly. The Gen3 was just a tad bit too big. Accuracy with the P320 was very easy for me and I think its mainly the trigger. The trigger is pretty much a single action trigger travel disguised as a double action only. I think this is part of the draw for P320 fans, its a really short crisp trigger for a striker fired gun in my opinion. In addition, the Sig Sauer name, being adopted by military and Leo,and the economical pricing are probably very appealing reasons to consumers who don't want to try out as many different guns as he/she can.

That being said, I haven't touched my P320 in years, and I am now all about the DA/SA platform, specifically the PX4. My preferred striker is my Gen4 G19/26.

[zaitcev]

I suspect the detailed disassembly/reassembly of the P320 FCU would at least provide a momentary challenge to an HK armorer.
Having built a P320 from a bag of parts, I report that the lower FCU in the chassis is not too difficult. The only less then obvious part was how to hold the little coil spring with needle-nose pliers. The real challenge lies in the striker group, which has extremely small parts. We're talking down to 3mm long and 0.5 mm wide small. To begin with, your work area must not have any crevices into which these parts can escape.

[gomerpyle]

left syndrome with Glocks is **not** simply a function of jerking the trigger

QfT

[CanineCombatives]

The sig hate mob mentality goes mainly to the demographic change this forum has seen in the past 3-4 years, this place used to be small, very small in membership numbers, and those numbers were comprised I'd guess of about 85% professional users, LE, national and regional level competitors, industry insiders and seasoned instructors.
That has flipped, maybe not fully the other way but around 75% of todays PF membership is civilian hobbyists looking for and sharing EDC information on today's pistols, and we know how powerful the mob mentality can be in forums, if you dont pile on the sig hate threads with your own licks, your not gonna be one of the cool kids, even worse if you come out as a sig defender.

But out there in the real world the actual P320 story is very different, rolled out fully in 2015 what it has accomplished in just 5 years in the professional end user market is really extraordinary, M17-18 became the standard across all 4 services after the most stringent selection process ever undertaken, in the LE market the P320 has taken back over 30% of glocks market share and that number grows by the day, and when you start talking to any professional end user about how the pistols have been received the answers are always extremely positive.
Now the aftermarket has finally gotten on board with the platform and will make it possible to really tailor the pistol to exactly what you want, which will result in an even bigger share of the commercial market, there's a reason why the whole drop sham was only ever embraced and gaslighted by the commercial side, considering an entire cottage industry has been established for the sole purpose of building "gucci glocks", but on the professional side few even know or care.

Bottom line, keep on hatin if it makes you happy, dont trust them, dont buy them, at the end of the day it has zero effect on the success of the P320.

[RAM Engineer]

... M17-18 became the standard across all 4 services after the most stringent selection process ever undertaken...

That's quite overstated.

[psalms144.1]

That's quite overstated.And patently UNTRUE. The pre-selection testing was EXTREMELY limited. But, Sig brought the small number on the bid, so they got the contract.

[AJD21]

We are aware the army screwed up. Everyone knows the most common sense option was ignored.

Which is why the M9A3 isn’t being currently produced for the armed forces. Lol.

[Zincwarrior]

We are aware the army screwed up. Everyone knows the most common sense option was ignored.



It all went downhill after they got rid of the Colt Single Action Army...:rolleyes:

[RAM Engineer]

From my perspective, any gain from a P320 over a Glock (9mm of any flavor) is so incremental as to be not worth it logistically. That goes for any plastic fantastic wondernine. The big gains are coming from optics and bullet technology strides.

The base pistol only needs to be (in order):
1. Reliable
2. Durable & Accurate & Ergonomic (three-way tie)

A chassis gun has never been a big whoop to me.
LEGION!!!/intricate slide machining & windows/Punisher Skull aesthetics/tribal tattoos on my gun/deck plating/TiN mean nothing to me.

[Nephrology]

The sig hate mob mentality goes mainly to the demographic change this forum has seen in the past 3-4 years, this place used to be small, very small in membership numbers, and those numbers were comprised I'd guess of about 85% professional users, LE, national and regional level competitors, industry insiders and seasoned instructors.
That has flipped, maybe not fully the other way but around 75% of todays PF membership is civilian hobbyists looking for and sharing EDC information on today's pistols, and we know how powerful the mob mentality can be in forums, if you dont pile on the sig hate threads with your own licks, your not gonna be one of the cool kids, even worse if you come out as a sig defender.

But out there in the real world the actual P320 story is very different, rolled out fully in 2015 what it has accomplished in just 5 years in the professional end user market is really extraordinary, M17-18 became the standard across all 4 services after the most stringent selection process ever undertaken, in the LE market the P320 has taken back over 30% of glocks market share and that number grows by the day, and when you start talking to any professional end user about how the pistols have been received the answers are always extremely positive.
Now the aftermarket has finally gotten on board with the platform and will make it possible to really tailor the pistol to exactly what you want, which will result in an even bigger share of the commercial market, there's a reason why the whole drop sham was only ever embraced and gaslighted by the commercial side, considering an entire cottage industry has been established for the sole purpose of building "gucci glocks", but on the professional side few even know or care.

Bottom line, keep on hatin if it makes you happy, dont trust them, dont buy them, at the end of the day it has zero effect on the success of the P320.

I just realized I've been a member here for 10 years..... and I was definitely not then, nor am I now, a high-speed low drag persona. I just like to buy gear that works :cool:

[Zincwarrior]

LEGION!!!/intricate slide machining & windows/Punisher Skull aesthetics/tribal tattoos on my gun/deck plating/TiN mean nothing to me.
Legion weighs 42 oz without the removeable magwell, has adjustable sights and a trigger Glocks could only dream of. Its purpose made for SSP / Production competition, or CO competition. Glocks barely exist in that space any more (same for M&P actually), and literally can't make the same weight without illegal modification. Recent equipment surveys have them almost completely absent now.

[RAM Engineer]

Legion weighs 42 oz without the removeable magwell, has adjustable sights and a trigger Glocks could only dream of. Its purpose made for SSP / Production competition, or CO competition. Glocks barely exist in that space any more (same for M&P actually), and literally can't make the same weight without illegal modification. Recent equipment surveys have them almost completely absent now.

There's more to <LEGION!!!> than just the 320 version...

It's the modern day <EMPEROR SCORPION!!!>

[Zincwarrior]

There's more to <LEGION!!!> than just the 320 version...

It's the modern day <EMPEROR SCORPION!!!>

Blasphemy!

[Zman001]

Its the army pistol. Thats quite attractive to lots of people

Also, most people don't shoot much, and they definitely don't worry about the companies reputation.

[UniSol]

People might know about the drop issue, for example, and still wouldn't care because:

"I don't never drop mah gun"

"Only a fool carries with a round in the chamber," so moot point.

Carrying appendix guarantees "you will shoot yourself," they carry a 365 in a 4' × 4' hybrid holster made put of 3mm neoprene and leather and a sweat guard that goes halfway up their ribcage 4:30 IWB.

"This is mah safety sir."

"SEALs use them." (joking)

I personally don't care about Sigs ethics, QC, etc. I get why other people do. I would be all over a p320 compact if it was hammer fired.

[Zman001]

M17-18 became the standard across all 4 services after the most stringent selection process ever undertaken


This is completely incorrect. The Beretta M9 went through trials twice. The m17/m18 didn't even complete 1 trial.

And the few cops I've asked about their 320's, weren't exactly happy with their new guns.

[edison]

Legion weighs 42 oz without the removeable magwell, has adjustable sights and a trigger Glocks could only dream of. Its purpose made for SSP / Production competition, or CO competition. Glocks barely exist in that space any more (same for M&P actually), and literally can't make the same weight without illegal modification. Recent equipment surveys have them almost completely absent now.

Are you talking about the equipment survey at USPSA nationals?

[TCinVA]

Again: The 320 is being marketed aggressively, especially to institutional users. Sig is following Glock's old business model for marketshare.

The 320 has been through some rigorous testing...where it had significant issues. The FBI contract is likely the largest. All the scuttlebutt I heard coming out of the FBI on that was highly favorable until all of a sudden it wasn't due to serious issues that arose in testing and viola: The Gen5 Glock got the win.

It's worth noting that the FBI, the USSS, and the CBP awards were made after some pretty thorough testing...and all went to Glock.

The 320 has some significant potential advantages over Glock. An entire industry of reworking Glock grips hasn't materialized for no reason. The Glock is an ergonomic nightmare for most people's hands. The Sig's use of an easily replaceable frame that a fire control chassis slips into is brilliant. It's the execution of it that leaves much to be desired, and that's where Sig has been for a number of years. They've been willing to innovate but did so with significant problems in delivering on the final product.

The S&W M&P is a superb design that had serious problems from the jump because of S&W's troubles delivering a proper end result. It took them until version 2.0 to address serious issues like the inconsistent lockup problem. Had they fixed that up front and not had a number of other problems along the way, who knows where the M&P might be right now.

[Rc217]

I have a p320 variant and the Wilson Combat grip module and a flat face trigger renewed my interest in it. The fcu concept allows the user to significantly change the feel of the gun without permanent mods or going through an ffl. It is definitely debatable how big a deal that is, and I definitely understand just having another firearm instead of switching things around. What about the fcu makes it to where you can serialize it as the “gun” and would there be a way for Glock to do that and maintain their simplicity? I would love to be able to drop a Glock fcu into various aftermarket modules without having to go the p80 route or buy other serialized parts.

[Spoon Dog]

A changing of the guards is hardest for the most entrenched.

All great things must first wear a terrible mask....





Now that we had a few massive hate fests in this forum, such as "Would you trust P320", how about we reconcile with the fact that civilians love them some P320?

I'm just back from a pistol class where I ran P320 Full Size. I only have that gun because the front strap of G19 cuts painfully into my fingers as I start to apply the grip. The cross-section of the grip on my P320 is more round at the front, so it does not hurt no matter how tight I grasp it. Before getting it, I considered putting a good bead of JB Weld on the front strap of my G19, then filing it into a desirable shape, but I decided that I wasn't handy enough to make that project a success. I fired a bit north of 1300 rounds in the class, and dry-fired perhaps a third of a half of that amount, and my fingers are fine.

But another thing I noticed is the invasion of P320 of various kinds among the students. Most still have Glocks, but I'd say P320 is at least a quarter. It wasn't like that just a year ago. Well, I had a Glock back then too.

I overheard other students discussing this and the ergonomics was the main topic. Glock users had calluses and tender spots. One guy's fingers were in band-aids all over. Another one reported to class on the second day wearing gloves. SIG users were feeling smug, I'm sure. The second topic was the complaints about the price of SIG magazines. I brought ETS magazines to the class, but to the disappointment of many, they aren't drop-free in my gun. Nobody seemed to care much about the difference in the trigger feel.

I didn't see any malfunctions aside from one Glock user having light strikes, but it was cured by a change in ammunition. Well, 1300 rounds per gun is not much. But it is safe to consider P320 reliable enough for civilian use.

I'm afraid P320 is here to stay. Even if nothing else, adoption by Army is going to see to that.

[LockedBreech]

The sig hate mob mentality goes mainly to the demographic change this forum has seen in the past 3-4 years, this place used to be small, very small in membership numbers, and those numbers were comprised I'd guess of about 85% professional users, LE, national and regional level competitors, industry insiders and seasoned instructors.
That has flipped, maybe not fully the other way but around 75% of todays PF membership is civilian hobbyists looking for and sharing EDC information on today's pistols, and we know how powerful the mob mentality can be in forums, if you dont pile on the sig hate threads with your own licks, your not gonna be one of the cool kids, even worse if you come out as a sig defender.


I've never gotten the impression that anyone at PF gives a shit about being "cool" - certainly I don't, that's why I like it here.

I think we joined around the same time and while I've noticed plenty of new faces I still see "shoot more, buy less" as the answer to most questions, which tells me we're still culturally pretty sound. I'm certainly a better shooter because of PF.

I'm responding to this mainly because I've been pretty vocally one of the anti-Sigs here, but I'm certainly not thoughtless or hive-mind about it. I enthusiastically endorse the SP2022 still, and if the QC issues ever smooth out I want an M18.

[zaitcev]

I would be all over a p320 compact if it was hammer fired.
If a hammer-fired P320 Compact were all you wanted, it would be very simple to make one, just expensive. Buy a few P250 parts, buy a MUP-1 fixture, use the fixture to drill a couple of holes, swap the P250 parts into your Compact and voila: you have a hammer-fired P320 Compact. In fact, the extra holes do not prevent you going back to striker if you want. But I suspect that you actually want a DA/SA P320 Compact instead. The latter is impossible unfortunately.

[Runt1122]

Mike Glover, retired special forces, seems VERY impressed with his new Sig P320. This guy has seen more combat than we can imagine, is an instructor today, and incredibly humble.


https://youtu.be/InQc_7ynrW4

[Joe in PNG]

Its the army pistol. Thats quite attractive to lots of people

Also, most people don't shoot much, and they definitely don't worry about the companies reputation.

If people cared about actual use & reputation, Uncle Mike's & Serpas wouldn't be as popular.

[Alpha Sierra]

Its the army pistol. Thats quite attractive to lots of people

Also, most people don't shoot much, and they definitely don't worry about the companies reputation.

The 320 becomes more and more popular in USPSA carry optics and production every passing month. They (we) shoot A LOT as a general rule. Probably more than most tac timmies, I would bet.

Most people don't worry about the "reputation" of the company that made their pistol because it's irrelevant if theirs runs. They're not interested in virtue signaling or tilting at windmills.

FTR, I neither have nor want a 320. I shot one once and it sucked.

[modrecoil]

I have a bunch of P320s in all shapes and sizes from X-Five to subcompact (which may be my favorite, oddly). They all served me well and were more accurate at distance than any of my Glocks. Until Gen 5s came out. Now I'm mostly back to Glock, with casual CZ flings here and there.

I think HCM nailed it when he said P320 problems are SIG issues, not P320 issues.

[TheNewbie]

Mike Glover, retired special forces, seems VERY impressed with his new Sig P320. This guy has seen more combat than we can imagine, is an instructor today, and incredibly humble.


https://youtu.be/InQc_7ynrW4


I appreciate what these guys have done and the knowledge they have. Most of these dudes can use crap gear better than I can use quality gear.

That doesn’t mean you always get the best advice from them. I had an SF guy who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq tell me Kimber was the best bang for the buck 1911 wise.

I’ve seen serval pics of elite unit guys using Serpas.

Your post is a legit post, I’m not trying to dismiss it. Just pointing out even knowledgeable guys make bad choices at times.

I have no first hand experience with the P320, but for a multitude of reasons I just can’t trust the platform. If I want to play the I’m nervous if it’s going to work game, I’ll just buy a 1911. Then I at least have quality gunsmith options. The P320 may be great, but it’s not the gun for me at this time.

People should definitely listen to Mike Glover over me, but a poor choice is a poor choice whoever makes it.

[Zman001]

The 320 becomes more and more popular in USPSA carry optics and production every passing month. They (we) shoot A LOT as a general rule. Probably more than most tac timmies, I would bet.

Most people don't worry about the "reputation" of the company that made their pistol because it's irrelevant if theirs runs. They're not interested in virtue signaling or tilting at windmills.

FTR, I neither have nor want a 320. I shot one once and it sucked.


I'd still bet relatively few people shoot USPSA compared to all the guys who go to cabellas and pick up the new army pistol


Sigs reputation has nothing to do with virtue signaling, it has everything to do with lying to customers, and letting guns that are not ready for the limelight get onto the market.

"Most people" didn't even know that they were carrying and shooting a gun that was not drop safe. Hell, most gun stores didn't even know.

[GJM]

The 320 Legion has the best price /performance ratio of any Production or Carry Optics Gun. It can be 44.8 ounces in CO against a 45.0 limit. The magazines hold 22-23, depending upon follower, are tapered, and the good ones are made by MecGar. The magwell can be hogged out to near Limited/Open gun size and reloads are very fast. Factory trigger is good and GGI is drop in and inexpensive by trigger standards. They are reliable and generally shoot accurately. The grip feels 2011’ish for those that find that important. The TUNGSTEN infused polymer grip module is innovative. Texture can easily be added to the grip. Springer makes plates for nearly every optic. Ongoing maintenance is minimal. For $899 you get a lot of competition pistol.

My wife and a high percentage of my friends shooting CO are using the new Legion. Nearly every match, I see another shooter with a new Legion. I am feeling very nostalgic competing with a Gen 4 Glock 17, but I just don’t enjoy shooting the Legion.

[GJM]

I'd still bet relatively few people shoot USPSA compared to all the guys who go to cabellas and pick up the new army pistol


Sigs reputation has nothing to do with virtue signaling, it has everything to do with lying to customers, and letting guns that are not ready for the limelight get onto the market.

"Most people" didn't even know that they were carrying and shooting a gun that was not drop safe. Hell, most gun stores didn't even know.

Not defending Sig, but there have been scores of different brand guns that were not drop safe. Walther, Canik, S&W (third gen semi auto pistols and some revolvers), Ruger revolvers, 1911 pistols for years and many more I have forgotten.

[Wise_A]

It's popular with plebs because it's inexpensive, new, and it says "Sig" on the side. It's popular with the hobbyist shooter because individual examples of any modern manufacturer's guns will, on average, be pretty decent, even when that manufacturer half-asses it and employs modern cost-saving QC shortcuts.

Enthusiasts that are super-engaged with the community, on the other hand, have a bone to pick with Sig for various reasons, and the internet allows us to remember the P320's woes while forgetting that even steadfast Glock had a few mis-steps. And, of course, the testing problems that far exceed the conditions most people are going to put their guns through. Sort of like the "lifetime guarantee" on el cheapo's--when the average shooter isn't going to put 500 rounds through their Hi-Point or Canik, who cares if it breaks after 2k? Not to mention, I think a lot of us are somewhat risk-averse given that we take carry, competition, or just screwing-around shooting more seriously than the average bear.

It's a gun. It doesn't interest me, but I don't think it's any better or worse than anything else in its price bracket.

[Zman001]

Not defending Sig, but there have been scores of different brand guns that were not drop safe. Walther, Canik, S&W (third gen semi auto pistols and some revolvers), Ruger revolvers, 1911 pistols for years and many more I have forgotten.

Sig still sold new 320's that were not drop safe. Just because some other company had safety issues, doesn't give sig a free pass.

They knew the gun was not drop safe, then that cop got shot by his own gun, denied that their gun wasn't safe, then did a "voluntary upgrade" after Omaha Outdoors did that video.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'd still bet relatively few people shoot USPSA compared to all the guys who go to cabellas and pick up the new army pistol


Sigs reputation has nothing to do with virtue signaling, it has everything to do with lying to customers, and letting guns that are not ready for the limelight get onto the market.

"Most people" didn't even know that they were carrying and shooting a gun that was not drop safe. Hell, most gun stores didn't even know.

I predict all that will be heard only in internet echo chambers while SIG keeps raking in money.

[Zman001]

I predict all that will be heard only in internet echo chambers while SIG keeps raking in money.


I bet taurus is raking in money right now too, that doesn't change the fact that nobody in their right mind would reccomend them for a serious use gun.

How much longer till sig is at the same level? From the CS I've seen, and how they treat customers who buy thier long guns, I'd say they are close.

Do you have an actual argument? Because "well they are making money" isn't a very good one.

[modrecoil]

Having built a P320 from a bag of parts, I report that the lower FCU in the chassis is not too difficult. The only less then obvious part was how to hold the little coil spring with needle-nose pliers. The real challenge lies in the striker group, which has extremely small parts. We're talking down to 3mm long and 0.5 mm wide small. To begin with, your work area must not have any crevices into which these parts can escape.

Working with the triggerbar spring made me want to vote for Bloomberg.

[Zman001]

Working with the triggerbar spring made me want to vote for Bloomberg.

Is it wrong to say the APX is the better mousetrap? From a vrief visual inspection of the apx, it sure seemed like it

[spence]

I'm no expert, nor do I use a gun near as much as many here, and I sure as heck don't have a lot of time behind a Glock, but it's easy to recognize the issues with Sig as a company and their business practices. I find that very off putting. However, I really don't much like Glock pistols from a shootability standpoint. If I was looking for a striker fired pistol for a shooting gun, I'd strongly consider one. I wouldn't want to carry it, in the slightest, but I put a handful of rounds through a rental a few months ago, and I was rather impressed with the thing. The price on them is certainly attractive, too, in comparison to a lot of other options on the market. That said, I'm not in the market for a striker fired anything at the moment, and don't foresee being so any time soon, so it's a moot point.

[JRB]

I'll almost certainly buy an M17 or M18 just because I want a practice gun for what I may be issued in the Army. With luck, I'll be able to keep M9's indefinitely but I can't count on that.
Otherwise I'd have no interest in one.

On (insert high speed low drag meat eating sheep-hitting pipe-dog operator guy) sorts of recommendations:

Gentlemen, those guys are the race car drivers of this world. Not the engine builders, not the suspension guys or aerodynamics guys, they're drivers.

The worlds fastest and best drivers rarely know a damn thing about proper piston ring gaps, camshaft lift, aero balance, etc - they just know when the car is fast and works well for them so they can drive it faster. They don't give a tenth-inch of shit about the numbers and how or why, they know just enough to give good feedback.

The issue with the gunternet levels of experience is that this overlap is not clearly defined like it is in cardom.

Yes, I absolutely want driving lessons from the badass driver when I'm learning how to drive fast. He's the guy to talk to about those driving lessons. But he might not be the guy to talk to about building your engine, or tuning your suspension, especially if he's not particularly familiar with your car - he just happens to be a skilled driver that can drive it very quickly.
Now, drivers that fancy a particular car will tend to learn a lot about it and can give precise and expert feedback on mechanical SNAFU's and such. E.g. guys who've carried and shot Glocks for entire careers of pistolcraft will sure as hell know how Glocks work.

Putting an awesome driver in a fresh new car and running some fast laps are all great things, when we're comparing it to other new cars and lap times. When we're worried about tire life, long term reliability, etc - not necessarily the best data from which to work.


Also, and more complicating - there's different kinds of skilled professional drivers than the rock star race car drivers. There's a shitload of guys driving massive 53ft semi trucks and being a 'good driver' in either of those disciplines have very different skillsets. So first things first, figure out what you're driving and then find those sorts of drivers. In one case, that race car driver gets switched-on and stays switched on for the whole time he's driving because he's pushing everything to the max and he knows he's at the limit.

Truck drivers, meanwhile, endure hours of tedium that can very suddenly require accurate, effective, and precise reaction and driving skill to save their own lives and the lives of bystanders. Not glamorous like the race car driver, but a wildly different reality that dictates some very real differences in how those skills are applied.

Neither of them are necessarily the guys to talk to about how things work under the hood, or what engine is best - they will have very rooted anecdotal experience and opinions but not the perspective of an engine builder, or shop foreman on what works and lasts and what doesn't.

So the SOF operators know a lot about switching on, and bringing the fight to the bad guys and putting a shitload of hurt on much larger numbers of hostile Soldiers as a small effective element.
But a 25 year experienced street cop has a hell of a lot more perspective on defending oneself from possibly lethal surprises in an otherwise normal-looking world.
When it comes to running the pistol itself as best I can, I want the race car driver with hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange.
When it comes to mindset, defensive tactics, carry, draw, concealment, gear selection that doesn't fuck your whole life up, etc - I'm listening to that beat cop first.

That all said, I'll carry an HK USP45, Glock 19, or Beretta M9 depending on the situation that day. The only 'new' guns that may change that rotation are a Glock 48 and an HK45C LEM.

I strongly doubt I'll ever daily carry the M17 or M18 I buy as a practice gun for a possible Army issued duty weapon - but if some weird miracle happens where I start shooting it measurably better or faster than my G19 or M9, and I run enough ammo through it to trust it, I'm open to the idea, especially if an SCD of some kind becomes available.
But my current experience with other P320 models doesn't align with that possibility. The G2 G19 is my tired old pickup truck with all of its rattles and dents but is hauntingly reliable.

[HCM]

That's quite overstated.


And patently UNTRUE. The pre-selection testing was EXTREMELY limited. But, Sig brought the small number on the bid, so they got the contract.


Again: The 320 is being marketed aggressively, especially to institutional users. Sig is following Glock's old business model for marketshare.

The 320 has been through some rigorous testing...where it had significant issues. The FBI contract is likely the largest. All the scuttlebutt I heard coming out of the FBI on that was highly favorable until all of a sudden it wasn't due to serious issues that arose in testing and viola: The Gen5 Glock got the win.

It's worth noting that the FBI, the USSS, and the CBP awards were made after some pretty thorough testing...and all went to Glock.

The 320 has some significant potential advantages over Glock. An entire industry of reworking Glock grips hasn't materialized for no reason. The Glock is an ergonomic nightmare for most people's hands. The Sig's use of an easily replaceable frame that a fire control chassis slips into is brilliant. It's the execution of it that leaves much to be desired, and that's where Sig has been for a number of years. They've been willing to innovate but did so with significant problems in delivering on the final product.

The S&W M&P is a superb design that had serious problems from the jump because of S&W's troubles delivering a proper end result. It took them until version 2.0 to address serious issues like the inconsistent lockup problem. Had they fixed that up front and not had a number of other problems along the way, who knows where the M&P might be right now.

A couple notes with regard to federal agency testing. CBP is the largest LE agency in North America with 45k LEOs.

The next biggest fed agency is ICE with a “mere” 15k LEO.

The FBI contract including collateral purchases by other agencies such as DEA, the US marshals service and the US department of state diplomatic security service combined is still smaller than the CBP contract. In fact those combine purchases are just over half tne size of the CBP contract.

There have been some individuals who question why different federal law enforcement agencies conduct their own testing or why they don’t just adopt whatever the military adopts because in their anti-government/libertarian myopia They fail to realize that the Darwinian competition for large contracts is the greatest spur to innovation, improvement and refinement in service pistol design.

The FBI did the first round of recent federal pistol testing. The PE320 was the last pistol eliminated before leaving the Glock M models as the sole gun to pass testing and meet all requirements.

Duding the ICE testing, the next big round of testing, The Glock M models were submitted and then withdrawn by Glock prior to the completion of the test. Both the SIG P320 and the FN 501, a non-commercial version of the 509 passed testing but the contract was awarded to SIG. The SIG P320 That passed the ICE testing was improved based on what was learned from the failures in the FBI testing.

I don’t know the details of the USSS testing other than the fact that they conducted their own independent pistol testing And chose the same Glock model’s adopted by CBP.

We do know that CBP conducted an extensive test of available modern service pistols and unlike most agencies they designed the testing protocols but had them executed by an independent non-government entity to in sure fairness and impartiality. The result was that the improved versions of Both the Glock MOS and Sigg P320 pro carry met the requirements and passed the testing. Both guns were then put In the hands of a large group of beta testers Who carried and shot them in the field. CBP then chose the Glock over the SIG based largely on the feedback from those and users.
.
Other contenders such as the Smith and Wesson M&P And the Beretta APX were entered into the US military MHS testing and several of the above mentioned law enforcement test but we’re unable to complete or meet requirements for any of them.

[Alpha Sierra]

Do you have an actual argument? Because "well they are making money" isn't a very good one.

I told you I don't have a 320 nor do I want one. I'm just here to laugh at the virtue signaling and righteous indignation while SIG laughs all the way to the bank.

[Bucky]

The 320 becomes more and more popular in USPSA carry optics and production every passing month. They (we) shoot A LOT as a general rule. Probably more than most tac timmies, I would bet.

Most people don't worry about the "reputation" of the company that made their pistol because it's irrelevant if theirs runs. They're not interested in virtue signaling or tilting at windmills.

FTR, I neither have nor want a 320. I shot one once and it sucked.

There’s a reason the P320 is gaining more popularity in USPSA than in IPSC. The arbitrary rule set that plays into the P320 in USPSA, or more accurately the P320 plays into the rule set.

Also, as was stated, the P320 is probably the easiest to get up and competitive in Carry Optics.

[Tokarev]

A couple notes with regard to federal agency testing. CBP is the largest LE agency in North America with 45k LEOs.

I don’t know the details of the USSS testing other than the fact that they conducted their own independent pistol testing And chose the same Glock model’s adopted by CBP.

We do know that CBP conducted an extensive test of available modern service pistols and unlike most agencies they designed the testing protocols but had them executed by an independent non-government entity to in sure fairness and impartiality. The result was that the improved versions of Both the Glock MOS and Sigg P320 pro carry met the requirements and passed the testing. Both guns were then put In the hands of a large group of beta testers Who carried and shot them in the field. CBP then chose the Glock over the SIG based largely on the feedback from those and users.

Testing was conducted by the NIJ for CBP. Companies interested in competing for the contract submitted guns and paid NIJ to test them in accordance with the standards set by CBP.

I believe USSS merely piggy backed off the CBP contract and did no additional testing on the gun.

Also, the "beta tests" conducted by CBP were somewhat limited. Guns were shot in a closed environment and participants signed NDAs. Guns were not allowed off the testing venues and were not carried in the field. Tests done in field locations were one day only before moving on to the next location.

The Glock and 320 were statistically tied after the testing phase was completed. Tie breaker was price.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[HeavyDuty]

This is a slight tangent, but...

Sunday I flew back home from Manchester, NH on SWA. After boarding I was chatting with my row mate (we were trying to project “we’re big fuckers” vibes to prevent someone from picking the center seat,) and as it turned out he was a former SIG employee. I don’t want to out him as I think he’s still at least tangentially involved in the industry, but he was pretty high up in the management side. He said he reached the point where he just couldn’t work there anymore because of Ron and his policies. I mentioned the P320 rollout issues, and he said there were a lot of odd decisions made by the higher ups.

SIG management reminds me of what happens when a charismatic MBA wonderchild gets hired to “fix” things, and all he cares about is this quarter, the next and just possibly one or two more after that because he will have found greener pastures to shit in by the time the full impact of his corrosive policies is felt.

[gato naranja]

There’s a reason the P320 is gaining more popularity in USPSA than in IPSC. The arbitrary rule set that plays into the P320 in USPSA, or more accurately the P320 plays into the rule set.

That almost sounds like what is killing participation at our local/regional stock car races.

I sure wish I had realized 45 years ago that building a better mousetrap was not as important as marketing a better mousetrap or getting a government contract for mousetraps.

[Zincwarrior]

Are you talking about the equipment survey at USPSA nationals?

USPSA and IDPA

[Alpha Sierra]

There’s a reason the P320 is gaining more popularity in USPSA than in IPSC. The arbitrary rule set that plays into the P320 in USPSA, or more accurately the P320 plays into the rule set.

Not up to speed on IPSC PO and Production rules. What's that arbitrary ruleset in USPSA that the 320 exploits?

[Alpha Sierra]

That almost sounds like what is killing participation at our local/regional stock car races.

I sure wish I had realized 45 years ago that building a better mousetrap was not as important as marketing a better mousetrap or getting a government contract for mousetraps.

The 320 does nothing better than most other striker fired pistols. A lot of what you see in sports is monkey see monkey do.

[Zincwarrior]

The 320 does nothing better than most other striker fired pistols. A lot of what you see in sports is monkey see monkey do.

Lets compare the Glock 34 and X Five Legion.

Legion has adjustable sights. Glock 34?
Legion has a fiver optic front sight. Glock 34?
Legion has a CO plate setup. Glock 34?
Legion has a short trigger reset. Glock 34?
Legion is at the maximum weight for 2 of the USPSA categories. Glock 34?

Legions took the X five changes that competitive shooters were making (mine was in the shop doing that) and put them into the Legion. When has the Glock 34 been modified?

EDIT: I could say the same about Walther's Q5 steel frame, both are made to compete right out of the box. Walther's looks more like a ray gun though, so it has the kewl factor. :cool:

[Yung]

Only somewhat related question, but what did John Hearne carry for duty pistol before he earned a turbo pin from Gabe White with an X-Five?

[HCM]

Testing was conducted by the NIJ for CBP. Companies interested in competing for the contract submitted guns and paid NIJ to test them in accordance with the standards set by CBP.

I believe USSS merely piggy backed off the CBP contract and did no additional testing on the gun.

Also, the "beta tests" conducted by CBP were somewhat limited. Guns were shot in a closed environment and participants signed NDAs. Guns were not allowed off the testing venues and were not carried in the field. Tests done in field locations were one day only before moving on to the next location.

The Glock and 320 were statistically tied after the testing phase was completed. Tie breaker was price.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk


USSS bought / is buying the guns off the CBP contract, and may have had access to the CBP test data but they did their their own testing prior to that selection.

Didn’t NIJ contract out the testing ? That is what they normally do with body armor testing:

https://www.justnet.org/compliant/NIJ-approved-labs.html

[Dave T]

I'm going to sound like a Glock fan-boy for part of this, but I actually don't like them much. They are butt ugly and the trigger sucks. That said I was forced into the Glock when my physical problems (arthritis in my shooting hand) forced me to give up on my beloved 1911s. The wider grip and softer recoil of the G21 made me into a user and carrier.

If I had purchased every "Glock killer" and "better than a Glock" service style handgun that has come along since the mid-1990s, I would have a safe full of guns and magazines, and a drawer full of holsters, that could stock at least a counter in a gun shop. After putting several thousand rounds through the G21 I started carrying a Glock 30, then a G 30S when that idea caught on. My wife, who gave up competitive shooting but still wanted a gun around, opted for the Glock 19, a 2nd Gen because her small hand and fingers didn't come close to fitting Glock's finger grooves. I found another clean Gen 2 and bought it as a back-up for her. Couple years later I got a chance to buy a very tired police trade in G2 G19 for a stupid cheep price so now we have three of them laying around (OK - two are in the safe).

We find ourselves Glock shooters when it isn't the first choice for either of us. But, Glocks are boringly reliable, I can replace parts even with my limited smithing skills, and at our age (early 70s) and condition we can still shoot them without hurting anything.

One of the biggest arguments I hear and read in favor of the new SIG is it is so much more ergonomic than the Glock. Glocks apparently don't fit anyone well. However I'm always reminded of P-F's own Dagga Boy from the revolver section who once said, we are adaptive creatures with four fingers and an opposing thumb. Adapt to the tool and quit worrying about making the tool a perfect fit to you. Yea, he was talking about a revolver at the time but the concept still applies.

If you like, own, or want a SIG P320 then God bless you and more power to you. It doesn't have to be "better" than the Glock, the M9, the HK, or anything else. If you want to try one, pay your money and take your chances. It might be your wonder gun. But please don't defend you choice by telling us it's better than everything else. Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, is better than everything else.

Dave

[GJM]

Lets compare the Glock 34 and X Five Legion.

Legion has adjustable sights. Glock 34?
Legion has a fiver optic front sight. Glock 34?
Legion has a CO plate setup. Glock 34?
Legion has a short trigger reset. Glock 34?
Legion is at the maximum weight for 2 of the USPSA categories. Glock 34?

Legions took the X five changes that competitive shooters were making (mine was in the shop doing that) and put them into the Legion. When has the Glock 34 been modified?

EDIT: I could say the same about Walther's Q5 steel frame, both are made to compete right out of the box. Walther's looks more like a ray gun though, so it has the kewl factor. :cool:

Actually, the Glock has shorter reset and a factory MOS system. That aside, USPSA shooters are totally focused on performance, and are buying the new Legion because they think they shoot it better. For every one shooter going from Legion back to Glock, there are ten going from Glock to the Legion. The higher level shooters in AZ are almost exclusively, with a few exceptions like FON (friends of Nils).

[HCM]

Actually, the Glock has shorter reset and a factory MOS system. That aside, USPSA shooters are totally focused on performance, and are buying the new Legion because they think they shoot it better. For every one shooter going from Legion back to Glock, there are ten going from Glock to the Legion. The higher level shooters in AZ are almost exclusively, with a few exceptions like FON (friends of Nils).

The legion 320 frame is a true innovation, a polymer frame with the weight of a metal frame. However, it is a completion only application. SIG specifically advises not to use the legion frame for duty use.

Have there been durability issues with the legion frame in USPSA .

[GJM]

The legion 320 frame is a true innovation, a polymer frame with the weight of a metal frame. However, it is a completion only application. SIG specifically advises not to use the legion frame for duty use.

Have there been durability issues with the legion frame in USPSA .

The 320 Legion pistols are all less than a year old, and the high time ones are probably still under 20,000 rounds. What is the issue with the Legion grip module for duty?

[HCM]

The 320 Legion pistols are all less than a year old, and the high time ones are probably still under 20,000 rounds. What is the issue with the Legion grip module for duty?

I was told a durability issue. They didn’t go into detail but I know Magpul found differences in the strength and durability of different colors of the same polymers so can see the tungsten powder in the polymer changing the properties the material.

The regular X5 grip shell and magwell are ok for duty so it seems to be a materials issue.

[Zincwarrior]

I would image the regular X5 would be preferred for duty, due to the lighter weight as well.

[gomerpyle]

For every one shooter going from Legion back to Glock, there are ten going from Glock to the Legion. The higher level shooters in AZ are almost exclusively, with a few exceptions like FON (friends of Nils).

GJM, can you elaborate on this? Are a number of AZ's higher level shooters migrating to the Legion?


I am feeling very nostalgic competing with a Gen 4 Glock 17, but I just don’t enjoy shooting the Legion.

And why do you enjoy shooting Glocks over the Legion?

[t1tan]

Just look at the past 10 years, constant product revisions, generation after generation, lack of support for previous generations, "upgrades", cutting corners, going cheap on sub-contracted parts and pushing out now quite finished designs. Sig puts out a lot of interesting stuff, the problem is Sig themselves and what leaves the factory. Company ethics aside, if they'd take their time for once and put out a fully flushed out finished design I'd be more willing to give their products a try, but I get the feeling of everything they release reaches "good enough" and the send it out into the wild.

[TCFD273]

Lets compare the Glock 34 and X Five Legion.

Legion has adjustable sights. Glock 34?
Legion has a fiver optic front sight. Glock 34?
Legion has a CO plate setup. Glock 34?
Legion has a short trigger reset. Glock 34?
Legion is at the maximum weight for 2 of the USPSA categories. Glock 34?

Legions took the X five changes that competitive shooters were making (mine was in the shop doing that) and put them into the Legion. When has the Glock 34 been modified?

EDIT: I could say the same about Walther's Q5 steel frame, both are made to compete right out of the box. Walther's looks more like a ray gun though, so it has the kewl factor. :cool:

I had a Legion and went back to Glock. In all fairness I’ve been shooting Glocks for a very long time, and I shoot them very well.

I have about $800 in my CO 34.5 (blue label) not including optic and I’m at 38 ounces with an unloaded mag. Not bad for a gun with a proven track record and 2.5” groups with my reloads.

The guys that I’m routinely chasing at matches..1 shoots a Tanfo (GM), 1 shoots a CZ (GM), 1 shoots a 34 (M), and another shoots a Legion (M). The gun doesn’t matter that much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John Hearne]

I too was curious about the infused grip module not being suited for duty use. From the Legion reviews I've seen, they consistently report a drop in trigger pull weight. I wonder if the Legion allegedly being inappropriate for duty use are actually reflection of a trigger weight that is intended more for the match than the street.


And regarding carry weight, I trucked around a 5" all stainless steel 45 for more years than I can count and all weight was forgiven once the gun came out of the holster and the shooting started.


*Full Disclosure - I've been running an earlier X-Five as my uniform duty gun for over a year.

[Eyesquared]

I had a Legion and went back to Glock. In all fairness I’ve been shooting Glocks for a very long time, and I shoot them very well.

I have about $800 in my CO 34.5 (blue label) not including optic and I’m at 38 ounces with an unloaded mag. Not bad for a gun with a proven track record and 2.5” groups with my reloads.

The guys that I’m routinely chasing at matches..1 shoots a Tanfo (GM), 1 shoots a CZ (GM), 1 shoots a 34 (M), and another shoots a Legion (M). The gun doesn’t matter that much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As someone who shoots the Legion for USPSA I agree that the specific brand of firearm isn't a big deal. However, the Legion, like a Tanfo Stock 2 or a CZ Shadow 2, offers no room for excuses. I like it simply because there is no doubt that my match performance is on me and not a equipment deficiency (even if in a conscious level, I believe those deficiencies are largely figments of the imagination).

[AMC]

FWIW, Sig's VP of LE Sales told me that the Legion X Frame was prone to chipping or cracking from impacts, due to the tungsten infusion changing the "flex" properties of the polymer, and that he would never want cops carrying the gun on duty. Our SWAT guys had asked about this, so we asked. He said it's a competition only focused product. On a positive note, if the frame does crack....its a $199 fix, not a new gun.

[HCM]

I too was curious about the infused grip module not being suited for duty use. From the Legion reviews I've seen, they consistently report a drop in trigger pull weight. I wonder if the Legion allegedly being inappropriate for duty use are actually reflection of a trigger weight that is intended more for the match than the street.


And regarding carry weight, I trucked around a 5" all stainless steel 45 for more years than I can count and all weight was forgiven once the gun came out of the holster and the shooting started.


*Full Disclosure - I've been running an earlier X-Five as my uniform duty gun for over a year.

Specifically the Legion grip shell. Not just the complete gun.

Regular X5 and X5 components are GTG.

[Eyesquared]

FWIW, Sig's VP of LE Sales told me that the Legion X Frame was prone to chipping or cracking from impacts, due to the tungsten infusion changing the "flex" properties of the polymer, and that he would never want cops carrying the gun on duty. Our SWAT guys had asked about this, so we asked. He said it's a competition only focused product. On a positive note, if the frame does crack....its a $199 fix, not a new gun.
That makes sense to me. I don't have a regular x5 grip but I was surprised at how rigid the TXG grip was when I first got my Legion. It is much less flexible than my Glock frames are. I did some light research into similar high density polymers since I was curious about the viability of a heavyweight polymer 2011 grip, and I would expect the material properties w.r.t. durability at extreme temps to suffer.

[Bucky]

Not up to speed on IPSC PO and Production rules. What's that arbitrary ruleset in USPSA that the 320 exploits?

USPSA allows for an extremely light and extremely short single action trigger pull, so long as it’s striker fired. Originally single action wasn’t allowed in any form, and the XD was originally disallowed because of it. The M&P however was allowed, because they claimed it to be DA. That rule would eventually be changed to any striker Fire is OK, and pretty much any mod is OK.

IPSC limits modifications in production. It also has a trigger pull weight restriction. It used to be first shot must be 5 pounds, which favored the DA/SA guns (since there was no restriction on subsequent shots). It seems recently they’ve update to either the previous restriction (for DA/SA) or a 3# for every shot (for the strikers).

This new rule will probably balance the field more in IPSC.

[GJM]

GJM, can you elaborate on this? Are a number of AZ's higher level shooters migrating to the Legion?



And why do you enjoy shooting Glocks over the Legion?

Yes, almost every A/M/GM USPSA shooter I know, that is shooting CO, has started shooting CO with a Legion, or switched from something else in CO to a Legion. Between AZ, MT and PF folks, I know at least a few dozen who have gone over to the Legion in CO. They seem especially popular with 2011 Limited/Open shooters, because the weight, grip angle and shape of the grip is apparently very 2011 like. The Canik appeals to some Nils fan boys, and budget oriented shooters. Glocks are mostly new shooters, cops, and guys with beards. Interestingly, almost every M class CO Glock shooter I know, is shooting a 17, and most of them with a SRO.

Intellectually, I love the Legion. I just really dislike shooting it and feel very much more in tune with how the dot tracks with a Glock. When my wife asks me to do something with one of her Legions, I have to really bite my tongue to not make a fuss. I don’t believe it is just subjective, because my recent classifiers are nearly ten percent higher with the 17 than with the Legion over the summer. More importantly, I just plain enjoy shooting more with a Glock than the Sig. Obviously that is unique to me, as the people I know shooting a Legion really like them and feel their performance is better with the Sig. A bunch of them have really strong feelings about a Glock, and wouldn’t shoot one if you paid them to.

[RAM Engineer]

I've gotta say that this thread DOES have me interested in trying an X-Compact...

[zaitcev]

Adapt to the tool and quit worrying about making the tool a perfect fit to you.
I refuse to hammer in nails with an axe when I can afford a hammer. I also have a bread knife, a carving knife, and a vegetable knife in my kitchen.

[Alpha Sierra]

and pretty much any mod is OK.

That is simply not so. There are plenty of restrictions of what can be done to USPSA Production and Carry Optics pistols. Comments in forums/facebook/social media to the contrary does not make it so, regardless of who made the comment.

The rest of your comments I agree with and was already aware. I was wondering if there were some brand new changes in IPSC rules. I'm not sure how I feel about the need for Production Optics Light (in IPSC). Personally I don't think lighter pistols (30 oz range) are any disadvantage. But I don't know much.

[PNWTO]

I've gotta say that this thread DOES have me interested in trying an X-Compact...

Defoor’s 25yd shooting with a stock X-Compact have me interested as well. However with a probable mag capacity restriction pending in this state the 365 may become my route into the new Sig line-up.

[Jared]

I've gotta say that this thread DOES have me interested in trying an X-Compact...

Try it, worst case scenario you don’t like it and sell it or trade it for something else. Ideally, find a lightly used one to buy and save a little dough on the initial purchase.

I like the ergos on my X-Carry a lot. I do not like the way the grip feels on the regular 320. I was in the “never buy a 320” camp until I got to playing with the X-Carry in a gun shop. So I took a chance on it. So far it’s range only for me, but like I said upthread, that may change.

With regard to performance, I shoot the 320 X-Carry as well as I can shoot my Gen5 G17, and shoot both of them a damn sight better than I can my G45. Why that is I cannot say for certain, but it is absolutely happening for me.

[t1tan]

Defoor’s 25yd shooting with a stock X-Compact have me interested as well. However with a probable mag capacity restriction pending in this state the 365 may become my route into the new Sig line-up.

Not to drift the thread, but don't comply, simple fix.

[FreedomFries]

Not to drift the thread, but don't comply, simple fix.

I hear a lot of people saying this, but that doesn't work for everybody. An arrest/criminal prosecution can jeopardize professional licensure, ability to remain employed, financial security, and time to spend with your family whether you agree with the law or not.

[Whirlwind06]

Just look at the past 10 years, constant product revisions, generation after generation, lack of support for previous generations, "upgrades", cutting corners, going cheap on sub-contracted parts and pushing out now quite finished designs. Sig puts out a lot of interesting stuff, the problem is Sig themselves and what leaves the factory. Company ethics aside, if they'd take their time for once and put out a fully flushed out finished design I'd be more willing to give their products a try, but I get the feeling of everything they release reaches "good enough" and the send it out into the wild.Sounds lie you are talking about Taurus, unfortunately you're not.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[t1tan]

I hear a lot of people saying this, but that doesn't work for everybody. An arrest/criminal prosecution can jeopardize professional licensure, ability to remain employed, financial security, and time to spend with your family whether you agree with the law or not.

Yeah it's a risk, but if people keep complying and allowing this stuff to happen, it will just continue and continue to get worse. Up to the individual though, everybody's circumstances are different.

[Bucky]

That is simply not so. There are plenty of restrictions of what can be done to USPSA Production and Carry Optics pistols. Comments in forums/facebook/social media to the contrary does not make it so, regardless of who made the comment.

The rest of your comments I agree with and was already aware. I was wondering if there were some brand new changes in IPSC rules. I'm not sure how I feel about the need for Production Optics Light (in IPSC). Personally I don't think lighter pistols (30 oz range) are any disadvantage. But I don't know much.

In context, but I should have been clearer, I was talking about the trigger. A lot of restrictions have been removed over the years, including you can now replace the physical trigger.

[Wise_A]

I hear a lot of people saying this, but that doesn't work for everybody. An arrest/criminal prosecution can jeopardize professional licensure, ability to remain employed, financial security, and time to spend with your family whether you agree with the law or not.

I've often thought about what I would do, in terms of practical handguns, if I didn't have a 10-round capacity. Multiple attackers are a Thing, I guess, but really--what exactly would shots 11 or 12 through 17 or 18 really do in a single-attacker scenario? Would I be better off..."front-loading" the available firepower with a larger cartridge than the 9mm, at the expense of capacity? BUT isn't the performance gap between 9mm and .45 ACP narrower than ever, to the point of being nonexistent? How much faster and more accurate am I with the 9 than I would be with a concealable .45?

And even if I did face multiple attackers, am I really going to have time to empty a 17-round magazine? Sure, more is always better, but is more really better in relation to the costs?

Too many questions, not enough answers, so--fuck it. 10 rounds of 9 oughta do in just about any situation I could reasonably survive. Of course, I don't roll with any dependents, so I'm free to jet if I find myself in a statistical outlier. Your situation may be different. But I'd still suggest that the 365 will offer you plenty of capacity. I wouldn't even say that such a thing as "enough" exists, but...yeah, that.

That said, I still strenuously object to magazine restrictions on the grounds that they are a Gun Law, and are thus pointless and stupid.

[GJM]

In context, but I should have been clearer, I was talking about the trigger. A lot of restrictions have been removed over the years, including you can now replace the physical trigger.

There is also more freedom in frame mods — the joke was that Dremel had become the official sponsor of Production and Carry Optics.

[spinmove_]

Yeah it's a risk, but if people keep complying and allowing this stuff to happen, it will just continue and continue to get worse. Up to the individual though, everybody's circumstances are different.

That’s why we vote and encourage others to vote. Things in VA are getting interesting and I’m interested to see how things get handled. It will undoubtedly set the tone for other states.

As much as I’d love to peacefully not comply, I also have a family to think about. Not complying works until I get popped at the most in-opportune for something like having a 15 round magazine and then I’m a felon and have all of the rest of my arms taken away from me. Or I could have a lower capacity magazine/gun for most situations and hold on to my “contraband” for a more appropriate time to use them if they remain legally contraband.

Anti-gun legislation is complete and utter bullshit that I find completely unacceptable, however, we must be smart about this as it happens. If we can fix it by voting then I prefer that to more violent means. In the meantime, I’ll comply within reason to satisfy not being a felon while still remaining armed in some capacity. I’m not a red flag to the state and I can still serve and protect my family until such a time I either don’t have to worry about it or more drastic measures need to be taken.

That’s me and my decision. You are free to handle your situation as you please and I wish you the best of luck in whatever you choose.

[OlongJohnson]

Their Achilles heel seems to be a reliance on sub-contracted MIM parts and an inability to get quality control for those bits in hand. (Which might be a contributor to their firing-when-dropped problems)

My recollection is that the issues were with the design itself, not manufacturing issues. There weren't any broken or out of spec parts when guns were disassembled and inspected.


Accuracy with the P320 was very easy for me and I think its mainly the trigger. The trigger is pretty much a single action trigger travel disguised as a double action only.

This is the problem I have with it. Not going to carry a SAO gun without an external safety. I know there's the version that has a safety, but it's small and in a weird location. I haven't really messed with it too much, but it seems unlikely to work as naturally as a 1911 or USP safety.


Only somewhat related question, but what did John Hearne carry for duty pistol before he earned a turbo pin from Gabe White with an X-Five?


And regarding carry weight, I trucked around a 5" all stainless steel 45 for more years than I can count and all weight was forgiven once the gun came out of the holster and the shooting started.

My recollection from previous discussion is that that was one or more P220s, not 1911s, right? Just because the way you said it will make most people jump to the latter conclusion.

[Deaf Smith]

One day I might get a P320... but since my Glocks, SIG 229, Kimber 1911, etc.. all run fine I see no reason to get one.

Plus I'll let the others R&D it for me to see if it works over the long haul.

[TheNewbie]

My recollection is that the issues were with the design itself, not manufacturing issues. There weren't any broken or out of spec parts when guns were disassembled and inspected.



This is the problem I have with it. Not going to carry a SAO gun without an external safety. I know there's the version that has a safety, but it's small and in a weird location. I haven't really messed with it too much, but it seems unlikely to work as naturally as a 1911 or USP safety.





My recollection from previous discussion is that that was one or more P220s, not 1911s, right? Just because the way you said it will make most people jump to the latter conclusion.


I feel just like you about SAO sans safety.

Do you use Glocks?

I feel comfortable enough with a Glock, NY-1 trigger, and SCD. Prefer a hammer and long smooth trigger more, but can live with that setup.

[OlongJohnson]

Focusing on USPc at the moment.

[John Hearne]

This is the problem I have with it. Not going to carry a SAO gun without an external safety. I know there's the version that has a safety, but it's small and in a weird location. I haven't really messed with it too much, but it seems unlikely to work as naturally as a 1911 or USP safety.

My recollection from previous discussion is that that was one or more P220s, not 1911s, right? Just because the way you said it will make most people jump to the latter conclusion.

I’ve handled but not shot the manual safety P320 and did my best to commune with the safety. I found it exceptionally well executed. I’ve thought more than once about it’s value on a duty gun and if I ever heed the siren’s call of AIWB, I’d carry the manual safety P320.

Regarding duty guns, I drug my feet transitioning from my revolver. From ‘98 to ‘02, I carried a standard P220. At the end of ‘02 I bought my first P220ST (the one with the propriety rail). Around ‘04(?) I went to a P220ST with standard rail. Around ‘06ish I picked up a P220ST Elite and a 5” slide assembly with fixed night sights. I carried that combo until the end of ‘18. I moved the on the X-Five as the P220 had broken another locking insert, I didn’t want to buy another, my agency made it clear we were moving to the P320, and I got a sweetheart deal that on a lightly used X-Five. So, all of the steel 45’s I carried were some iteration of the P220.

[frozentundra]

Sig is unbelievably schizophrenic with their approach to handgun lines!

I have been interested in Sig's modular frame swap system since the 250. I'd love to be able to try different grip customizations without sacrificing a gun to every project. Since they won the big contracts, I check in from time to time, hoping they will have stabilized into something resembling a coherent model lineup.

What I really want is an optic-ready G19 analog that can be fit with a small-size grip module for short trigger reach. RMR cut or adapter plate is also a feature I'd like to have.

This is what I find during my yearly visit to Sig's website:

*The subcompact models seem to have been completely discontinued
*There is a P320 "Nitron" Compact with 3.9" barrel and no optic cut
*There is a P320 "RXP " Compact with 3.9" barrel, direct milled optic cut, and mandatory attached Sig red dot that I don't want
*There is a P320 "X-Compact" with 3.6" barrel, rear night sight-plate assembly, also direct cut for optics I don't want
*The X-Compact series don't have a small grip module available
*Thankfully they have white frames available now because reasons

I don't know why the .3" difference in barrel length was necessary? Did they specifically not want all the slide assemblies to swap between the regular and X-series grip frames? Or can you actually put a 3.9" compact slide onto a 3.6" X-compact grip module?

One of these years, Sig will start making the P320 that I want, and I'll be happy to buy one. Then they'll probably discontinue it and release a P320-X-RXP-Legionaire-Compact-4.17" in Pink Cammo with a Burris Fastfire slide cut. :confused:

[OlongJohnson]

Around ‘06ish I picked up a P220ST Elite and a 5” slide assembly with fixed night sights.

So is that the gun I would recognize as a P220 SSE?

And refresh me on what the slide assembly came from? All the .45 Auto fixed-sight long slides I see are internal extractors, and my understanding is those are rabies/herpes/AIDS and can't be made to run.

A search for fixed-sight long slides with external extractors brings up a lot of 10mm.

A search for long slides with external extractors in .45 Auto brings up a lot of adjustable sights.

Thanks.

[tlong17]

Sig is unbelievably schizophrenic with their approach to handgun lines!

I have been interested in Sig's modular frame swap system since the 250. I'd love to be able to try different grip customizations without sacrificing a gun to every project. Since they won the big contracts, I check in from time to time, hoping they will have stabilized into something resembling a coherent model lineup.

What I really want is an optic-ready G19 analog that can be fit with a small-size grip module for short trigger reach. RMR cut or adapter plate is also a feature I'd like to have.

This is what I find during my yearly visit to Sig's website:

*The subcompact models seem to have been completely discontinued
*There is a P320 "Nitron" Compact with 3.9" barrel and no optic cut
*There is a P320 "RXP " Compact with 3.9" barrel, direct milled optic cut, and mandatory attached Sig red dot that I don't want
*There is a P320 "X-Compact" with 3.6" barrel, rear night sight-plate assembly, also direct cut for optics I don't want
*The X-Compact series don't have a small grip module available
*Thankfully they have white frames available now because reasons

I don't know why the .3" difference in barrel length was necessary? Did they specifically not want all the slide assemblies to swap between the regular and X-series grip frames? Or can you actually put a 3.9" compact slide onto a 3.6" X-compact grip module?

One of these years, Sig will start making the P320 that I want, and I'll be happy to buy one. Then they'll probably discontinue it and release a P320-X-RXP-Legionaire-Compact-4.17" in Pink Cammo with a Burris Fastfire slide cut. :confused:

The X-Compact grip is basically a small of the carry size. Even though it says medium, it’s not the same medium as the carry module. I have both and the x compact grip is smaller than carry medium and no noticeable difference from the small carry other than length.

You can get RMR plates that fit the DPP/Romeo 1 pro cut on the slide which effectively makes it no different than an MOS setup.

And yes you can put the 3.9 carry slide on the x compact grip module and it has very similar dimensions as a G19 with this set up.

[HCM]

The X-Compact grip is basically a small of the carry size. Even though it says medium, it’s not the same medium as the carry module. I have both and the x compact grip is smaller than carry medium and no noticeable difference from the small carry other than length.

You can get RMR plates that fit the DPP/Romeo 1 pro cut on the slide which effectively makes it no different than an MOS setup.

And yes you can put the 3.9 carry slide on the x compact grip module and it has very similar dimensions as a G19 with this set up.

The X compact grip is basically a small of the Compact size (15 round mag) grip shell. It is very G19ish.

The carry is the full (17 round) length.

You can normally go up or down one size between slides and grip shells without unsightly gaps.

[cornstalker]

G19.5 MOS and a P320c slide on an Xcompact frame.

48672

48673


The Sig is noticeably thicker. The picture doesn't do much to illustrate that.

[willie]

My lgs sells Sig pistols like they are hot cakes. The man in the street does has no knowledge of the issues discussed here and would not care anyway. Texas DPS continues to issue Sig's, a fact that influences other agencies in the state. I really should limit my comments about the brand because I have bias giving me negative opinions. I see them as shit guns that are notches above Glocks which I grudgingly accept. I no longer see Glocks as shit guns. They have no soul though. However, my G26 is my pet stepchild.

[gomerpyle]

Yes, almost every A/M/GM USPSA shooter I know, that is shooting CO, has started shooting CO with a Legion, or switched from something else in CO to a Legion. Between AZ, MT and PF folks, I know at least a few dozen who have gone over to the Legion in CO. They seem especially popular with 2011 Limited/Open shooters, because the weight, grip angle and shape of the grip is apparently very 2011 like. The Canik appeals to some Nils fan boys, and budget oriented shooters. Glocks are mostly new shooters, cops, and guys with beards. Interestingly, almost every M class CO Glock shooter I know, is shooting a 17, and most of them with a SRO.

Intellectually, I love the Legion. I just really dislike shooting it and feel very much more in tune with how the dot tracks with a Glock. When my wife asks me to do something with one of her Legions, I have to really bite my tongue to not make a fuss. I don’t believe it is just subjective, because my recent classifiers are nearly ten percent higher with the 17 than with the Legion over the summer. More importantly, I just plain enjoy shooting more with a Glock than the Sig. Obviously that is unique to me, as the people I know shooting a Legion really like them and feel their performance is better with the Sig. A bunch of them have really strong feelings about a Glock, and wouldn’t shoot one if you paid them to.

GJM, I'm sure you'll likely hear this soon, but just in case....

Ben Stoeger recently spoke of his first foray into CO (he posted a video of one of his stages in IG). In his Practical Shooting After Dark podcast #88, he discusses his experience, and for his likely preference for a Glock in CO over a P320 X5 Legion. Start at the 30:30 mark - the weight of the optic appreciably reduces recoil and the Glock is easier to transition. Of course, take it for what it's worth, Stoeger doesn't see himself competing in CO beyond the club level.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you are not unique in this regard:)

[frozentundra]

G19.5 MOS and a P320c slide on an Xcompact frame.

48672

48673


The Sig is noticeably thicker. The picture doesn't do much to illustrate that.

Thanks for the pics! That really puts it in perspective. I definitely don't want a grip wider than a glock.

How did you go about mounting the Holosun on the compact slide? Did you have to buy it as an RXP model with a Sig optic mounted on it?

[NWshooter]

Once Wilson or LTT does some work on them, the 320 will be loved here.

Just like the PX4

[JTQ]

Once Wilson or LTT does some work on them, the 320 will be loved here.

Just like the PX4
That's possible. Outside of the XD, or maybe Taurus in general, the PX4 was probably the most disliked pistol on this forum until Ernest Langdon started working on them.


Edit to add: Giving credit where credit is due, Caleb was on-board with the pre-Langdon PX4

[cornstalker]

Thanks for the pics! That really puts it in perspective. I definitely don't want a grip wider than a glock.

How did you go about mounting the Holosun on the compact slide? Did you have to buy it as an RXP model with a Sig optic mounted on it?

It was direct milled.

[AMC]

Thanks for the pics! That really puts it in perspective. I definitely don't want a grip wider than a glock.

How did you go about mounting the Holosun on the compact slide? Did you have to buy it as an RXP model with a Sig optic mounted on it?

The grip on the X Compact grip module is definitely not wider than a Glock. Slide thickness seems slightly more, however.

In terms of mounting an optic, this kinda goes to your point of the ever-evolving, ever expanding product lines, but Sig is going to the Pro style optic cut on their commericial lines, not just the LE Pro lines. That maintains the dovetailed rear sight, rather than having it as part of the plate. They're also changing the optic cut to a four hole mounting pattern, that will allow mounting of RMR footprint optics. I agree that it's annoying they didn't just do both of these things from the jump but hey....at least they're listening to the market now. Better late than never, I guess.

[cornstalker]

Could be my eyeballs lying to me again. I will throw a mic on it when I get home.

[frozentundra]

The grip on the X Compact grip module is definitely not wider than a Glock. Slide thickness seems slightly more, however.

In terms of mounting an optic, this kinda goes to your point of the ever-evolving, ever expanding product lines, but Sig is going to the Pro style optic cut on their commericial lines, not just the LE Pro lines. That maintains the dovetailed rear sight, rather than having it as part of the plate. They're also changing the optic cut to a four hole mounting pattern, that will allow mounting of RMR footprint optics. I agree that it's annoying they didn't just do both of these things from the jump but hey....at least they're listening to the market now. Better late than never, I guess.

So Sig is going to change to a completely new system that isn't currently available commercially? I apologize that much of the above terminology flies over my head. I have no idea what a LE Pro line is, what a Pro style optic cut is, or what exactly a four-hole mounting pattern will mean.

Has there been a detailed discussion about this on P-F.com to link to, or could you take pity on me and spell it out at a slightly more...remedial...level?

I don't have any experience with pistol RDS, but I know I want to go down this route. My vision is getting worse, and I just found out that a semi-local private gun club is actually hosting IDPA/USPSA matches. Apparently most people are shooting carry optics, and I would love to try this in the late Spring when they start up for the season.

It's really confusing to decide which platform to invest in.

[Alpha Sierra]

It's really confusing to decide which platform to invest in.

CZ P-10F Optics Ready for sports. CZ P-10C Optics Ready or CZ P-10S Optics Ready for carry.

One clean, clear, logical system with near total parts interchangeability.

[psalms144.1]

So Sig is going to change to a completely new system that isn't currently available commercially? I apologize that much of the above terminology flies over my head. I have no idea what a LE Pro line is, what a Pro style optic cut is, or what exactly a four-hole mounting pattern will mean.

Has there been a detailed discussion about this on P-F.com to link to, or could you take pity on me and spell it out at a slightly more...remedial...level?

I don't have any experience with pistol RDS, but I know I want to go down this route. My vision is getting worse, and I just found out that a semi-local private gun club is actually hosting IDPA/USPSA matches. Apparently most people are shooting carry optics, and I would love to try this in the late Spring when they start up for the season.

It's really confusing to decide which platform to invest in.The Pro series pistols, which to date have been sold as LE-only SKUs, have an optic plate like the MOS GLOCKs. The standard P320 optics platforms incorporate the rear sight into the mounting plate, so, unless you use an RDS with integrated rear backup sight notch, you're pretty much SOL on BUIS.

Hope that clears it up a little. On the issue of Sig's never ending and never predictable pattern of changing things in mid-stream, I can't help you, except to say that Ron Cohen will have Sig do WHATEVER he thinks will scrape them out a little more profit or market share.

[kwb377]

For additional size reference, I recently lined up a 320 Carry, X-Compact frame w/ X-Carry slide, VP9, and P10C.48679https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200213/6c7e3cb87dacc85b4730e41c3bcaf5b8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200213/c54b7aaf595fa1a7125a86e1f95fd7bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200213/0367fe16f23436631327912bdc775d36.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200213/7e18c63fecaa6cfeff15e657e3a5e435.jpg

[AMC]

CZ P-10F Optics Ready for sports. CZ P-10C Optics Ready or CZ P-10S Optics Ready for carry.

One clean, clear, logical system with near total parts interchangeability.

This isnt wrong. Especially if you're just concerned with your own needs. Those are great pistols.

In answer to frozentundra's question: the 320 Pro series pistols are a "Law Enforcement" product line. X Carry frame, flat trigger, Hi Vis X Ray night sights, and an optic cut similar to the Glock MOS, or M&P CORE. The original Sig RX Series optic cut incorporated an integral rear sight on the plate, that came off with the plate. Due apparently to customer demand, Sig is going to incorporate the Pro optic cut system on their non LE products as well. The original cut was proprietary, and only acommodated the Sig Romeo and Leupold Delta Point optics. The new mounting system they are adopting will also allow mounting Trijicon RMR footprint optics as well.

Hope this helps. You're right, it is confusing.

[TCFD273]

As someone who shoots the Legion for USPSA I agree that the specific brand of firearm isn't a big deal. However, the Legion, like a Tanfo Stock 2 or a CZ Shadow 2, offers no room for excuses. I like it simply because there is no doubt that my match performance is on me and not a equipment deficiency (even if in a conscious level, I believe those deficiencies are largely figments of the imagination).

Listened to Stoegers latest podcast, he shot CO with a stock G34. Pretty interesting his observations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eyesquared]

Listened to Stoegers latest podcast, he shot CO with a stock G34. Pretty interesting his observations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought that was interesting as well. I don't have a standard weight grip for the P320 so I don't know how it would compare on transitions, but I do like how my Glocks transition compared to heavy guns. I also think I have learned to be a little more precise and to not muscle the gun around with the heavy frame.

[RAM Engineer]

In answer to frozentundra's question: the 320 Pro series pistols are a "Law Enforcement" product line. X Carry frame, flat trigger, Hi Vis X Ray night sights, and an optic cut similar to the Glock MOS, or M&P CORE. The original Sig RX Series optic cut incorporated an integral rear sight on the plate, that came off with the plate. Due apparently to customer demand, Sig is going to incorporate the Pro optic cut system on their non LE products as well. The original cut was proprietary, and only acommodated the Sig Romeo and Leupold Delta Point optics. The new mounting system they are adopting will also allow mounting Trijicon RMR footprint optics as well.

So which system is the issue M17/M18 using?
Which system is the current XCompact?

[AMC]

So which system is the issue M17/M18 using?
Which system is the current XCompact?

M17/18 uses the original system, which incorporates the rear sight into the cover plate. No idea if it is identical to the commercial version, but it's essentially the same thing. The X Compact also uses that system.....the Pro Compact is basically the same gun, but with the Pro Cut slide. Saw commercial models of this at SHOT (non LE only SKUs).

[tlong17]

M17/18 uses the original system, which incorporates the rear sight into the cover plate. No idea if it is identical to the commercial version, but it's essentially the same thing. The X Compact also uses that system.....the Pro Compact is basically the same gun, but with the Pro Cut slide. Saw commercial models of this at SHOT (non LE only SKUs).

You can also buy the RXP versions of either the X series or non-X and then sell the Romeo 1 Pro that comes with it separate. They have been hard to find and you should be able to sell it for at least $200-$250 bringing the cost of the pistol to $610-650ish. You’re paying $30-$70 more than the X compact with rear site attached to plate. But you’re getting installed suppressor sights.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks for the pics! That really puts it in perspective. I definitely don't want a grip wider than a glock.

Note that I don't hang out on stippling forums...

I haven't seen it done yet, but there's certainly room to slim down the sides of the grip module and restipple them, or just throw on some grip tape. So, for example, if you like the reach from backstrap to trigger you get with a medium, but want the overall width to be slimmer like a small, and perhaps a little slab-sided like a USP, you can do that. It's only time and/or money.

[Wendell]

What is exactly different in terms of quality of parts between a contract/Leo/mil P320 and a commercial P320?

Not perceived but exact.

Does anyone know? I think that is the point. (Maybe someone at Sig knows, but they aren't sharing it publicly.)

Some people (myself included) would like to believe/have confidence/know that the QC applied was the same, but we don't.

[cornstalker]

Thanks for the pics! That really puts it in perspective. I definitely don't want a grip wider than a glock.


Both measured in two places near the center of the grip, not at the widest point (which would be the flared Glock magwell).
My Gen 5 Glock 19 grip measures 1.180" thick
My Xcompact P320 measures 1.225" thick

[HCM]

This isnt wrong. Especially if you're just concerned with your own needs. Those are great pistols.

In answer to frozentundra's question: the 320 Pro series pistols are a "Law Enforcement" product line. X Carry frame, flat trigger, Hi Vis X Ray night sights, and an optic cut similar to the Glock MOS, or M&P CORE. The original Sig RX Series optic cut incorporated an integral rear sight on the plate, that came off with the plate. Due apparently to customer demand, Sig is going to incorporate the Pro optic cut system on their non LE products as well. The original cut was proprietary, and only acommodated the Sig Romeo and Leupold Delta Point optics. The new mounting system they are adopting will also allow mounting Trijicon RMR footprint optics as well.

Hope this helps. You're right, it is confusing.

The original RX did NOT have the M17/18 plate system.

The original RX was cut specifically for the original SIG Romeo optic. The cut was in front of the rear sight.

Then SIG came out with the M17/18 system In which the entire rear of the slide is cut away and either an optic or a cover plate with a fixed rear sight is mounted. Per the MHS requirements the cut underneath the plate was for the loophole DeltaPoint pro footprint.

SIG subsequently cane out with the X5 and Xcarry Which both used an M 17 style cut and plate system but it was cut for the footprint of the original Sigg Romeo optic.

Right around the time CBP released their new pistol requirements. Which specifically excluded the M17 style plate system, SIG released the PRO series with the cut in front of the rear sight like the original RX and the Glock MOS. If I recall correctly these used the leupold DPP footprint but other optics could be mounted with MOS style adapter plates.

Then SIG changed the optics footprint under the M 17 style plate on the X Carry and the X5 from the original Romeo footprint to the DPP footprint.

Now SIG has discontinued the X Carry and the X full and replace them with the successor (RXP?).


SIG currently has optics with the Romeo foot print and two versions of the DPP footprint, only one of which is available commercially.

SIG literally has to provide their dealers a chart to track what fits with what.

[CanineCombatives]

And their new flagship pistol optic, the Romeo2 is just about to arrive, I'm pretty certain it will be compatible with both the MHS integral slides as well as the pro slides, it has the integrated rear sight that will co witness with the new x-ray suppressor height sights on the newest RXP's, what I'm not certain of is will the still new Romeo1 Pro sort of fall away and be replaced by the romeo 2 or will it continue as more of an EDC type optic since the Romeo 3 MAX is the dedicated gaming optic. Maybe they will clarify things at the NRA meeting.

[Yung]

zaitcev, have you seen the CCW surveys that Nephrology did a couple years back?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29050-2017-Pistol-Forum-com-CCW-Survey
Results start around page 26, but check out the entire thread for extra subanalyses and reflections from the participants.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34474-2018-pistol-forum-com-CCW-Survey
Results start around page 16, and Tom Jones pops back in to add some embedded infographics.

[HCM]

So which system is the issue M17/M18 using?
Which system is the current XCompact?

The M17/18 uses the cut all the way to the rear and the cover plate with the fixed rear sight. The optics cut is for the Leupold DPP footprint which is also compatible with the new Romeo1 and Romeo1 PRO.

The latest x Compact has abandoned the M17 system for a DPP footprint cut in front of the rear sight.

It may change again in a few months- who knows with SIG.

48694

[MistWolf]

Not defending Sig, but there have been scores of different brand guns that were not drop safe. Walther, Canik, S&W (third gen semi auto pistols and some revolvers), Ruger revolvers, 1911 pistols for years and many more I have forgotten.

The Walther PPQ will not fire if dropped. If the blow ia hard enough, the striker will release, but will be stopped from hitting the primer by the striker block.

[HCM]

And their new flagship pistol optic, the Romeo2 is just about to arrive, I'm pretty certain it will be compatible with both the MHS integral slides as well as the pro slides, it has the integrated rear sight that will co witness with the new x-ray suppressor height sights on the newest RXP's, what I'm not certain of is will the still new Romeo1 Pro sort of fall away and be replaced by the romeo 2 or will it continue as more of an EDC type optic since the Romeo 3 MAX is the dedicated gaming optic. Maybe they will clarify things at the NRA meeting.

Has anyone had hands-on with the Romeo2?

I’ve heard conflicting information. One version says it is a true closed emitter optic, The other says it is an open a meter optic with a removable cover for weather like rain and snow but that it is not truly sealed against moisture like the ACRO or HS 509.

[Duelist]

The Walther PPQ will not fire if dropped. If the blow ia hard enough, the striker will release, but will be stopped from hitting the primer by the striker block.

There are other Walthers. The PP & PPK reportedly have the potential to fire when dropped unless the safety is engaged, as well as first and second, but not third gen S&W.

[call_me_ski]

Has anyone had hands-on with the Romeo2?

I’ve heard conflicting information. One version says it is a true closed emitter optic, The other says it is an open a meter optic with a removable cover for weather like rain and snow but that it is not truly sealed against moisture like the ACRO or HS 509.

It is not a true closed emitter. The prototypes they have shown will ship with two shrouds. One is a closed emitter and the other is just a hood like on the Romeo1 pro. It is IPX7 water proof while you can scuba dive with the Acro.

[GJM]

The Walther PPQ will not fire if dropped. If the blow ia hard enough, the striker will release, but will be stopped from hitting the primer by the striker block.

PPS M2:

https://waltherarms.com/recall/

[HeavyDuty]

Has anyone had hands-on with the Romeo2?

I’ve heard conflicting information. One version says it is a true closed emitter optic, The other says it is an open a meter optic with a removable cover for weather like rain and snow but that it is not truly sealed against moisture like the ACRO or HS 509.


It is not a true closed emitter. The prototypes they have shown will ship with two shrouds. One is a closed emitter and the other is just a hood like on the Romeo1 pro. It is IPX7 water proof while you can scuba dive with the Acro.

I found these pics - my first reaction is that this is actually a decent idea if they pulled it off:

https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/SHOT-2020-SIG-6.jpg
https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/SHOT-2020-SIG-9.jpg

[archangel]

Now SIG has discontinued the X Carry and the X full and replace them with the successor (RXP?).



The X-fullsize is still available. Both the Carry and the XCarry appear to have been discontinued.

The RXP is the Romeo1Pro version of the RX line, ie guns that come with an optic included. That includes the RXP Full, RXP XFull, RXP Compact, and RXP XCompact. (That's right, you can now get models with TWO X's in the name, and the X's mean different things!)



The M17/18 uses the cut all the way to the rear and the cover plate with the fixed rear sight. The optics cut is for the Leupold DPP footprint which is also compatible with the new Romeo1 and Romeo1 PRO.

I was under the impression that the Romeo1Pro was the "new" Romeo1, for DPP footprint guns, and the orginal Romeo1 was sticking around to support the older guns with the Romeo1 footprint.



The latest x Compact has abandoned the M17 system for a DPP footprint cut in front of the rear sight.
48694

That appears to be an RXP XCompact. The regular XCompacts on Sig's website still show the M17 cut with rear site on the plate. But that could just be that they have not updated their photos. I have not seen a current XCompact in person yet.




It may change again in a few months- who knows with SIG.


It probably will, but that's not new. Back in the 90's, Sig was making so many changes to the springs and small parts under the grips on the 226 that Hogue and Pachmayr had a "we're pretty sure our grips will fit but we can't guarantee anything unless you send us the specific gun" policy.

[HCM]

It is not a true closed emitter. The prototypes they have shown will ship with two shrouds. One is a closed emitter and the other is just a hood like on the Romeo1 pro. It is IPX7 water proof while you can scuba dive with the Acro.

Thanks.

[HCM]

The X-fullsize is still available. Both the Carry and the XCarry appear to have been discontinued.

The RXP is the Romeo1Pro version of the RX line, ie guns that come with an optic included. That includes the RXP Full, RXP XFull, RXP Compact, and RXP XCompact. (That's right, you can now get models with TWO X's in the name, and the X's mean different things!)




I was under the impression that the Romeo1Pro was the "new" Romeo1, for DPP footprint guns, and the orginal Romeo1 was sticking around to support the older guns with the Romeo1 footprint.



That appears to be an RXP XCompact. The regular XCompacts on Sig's website still show the M17 cut with rear site on the plate. But that could just be that they have not updated their photos. I have not seen a current XCompact in person yet.




It probably will, but that's not new. Back in the 90's, Sig was making so many changes to the springs and small parts under the grips on the 226 that Hogue and Pachmayr had a "we're pretty sure our grips will fit but we can't guarantee anything unless you send us the specific gun" policy.

The X compact photo I shared if from my LGS so that version (RXP?) is shipping and in the wild.

The M17 plate version transitioned from the Romeo cut to the DPP cut a few months ago. One day the DPP cut, M17 plate style Xcompact will be a rare collectors item like S&W 5926s.

SIGs website is not regularly updated and is a shitshow on par with Safariland’s

[frozentundra]

SIGs website is not regularly updated and is a shitshow on par with Safariland’s

I think this is because Sig doesn't even understand what Sig is doing or why they are doing it. It's even more convoluted than I had guessed.

Why don't they just ask Lena Miculek or Daniel Horner what to do? I'm sure they could sort it out in about 15 minutes.

[BehindBlueI's]

I found these pics - my first reaction is that this is actually a decent idea if they pulled it off:

https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/SHOT-2020-SIG-6.jpg
https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/SHOT-2020-SIG-9.jpg

Is that like a quick disconnect? That'd be awesome. Get your gun muddy or snowy and just pop it off? Kind of like the snowmobile helmet visors?

[HeavyDuty]

Is that like a quick disconnect? That'd be awesome. Get your gun muddy or snowy and just pop it off? Kind of like the snowmobile helmet visors?

I think it’s just the two different hoods shown in comparison.

[backtrail540]

GJM posted this link in the romeo2 thread. Looks to screw in from the side.

https://www.recoilweb.com/sigs-romeo2-a-fresh-take-on-the-enclosed-emitter-mrds-157068.html

[BehindBlueI's]

I think it’s just the two different hoods shown in comparison.

Ah, damn it. That's still one of my hangups for an RDS in an exposed duty holster.

[GearFondler]

Love the hood idea (I could see a company cludging together a snap-on hood for the RMR)... hate, hate, hate the built in BUIS.

[psalms144.1]

Love the hood idea (I could see a company cludging together a snap-on hood for the RMR)... hate, hate, hate the built in BUIS.The incorporated BUIS has two advantages: (a) to date, nearly all of Sig's optics ready pistols have incorporated the rear sight into the RDS mounting plate, and (b) the built in BUIS mates up with a standard factory front sight. I think (a) shows lazy, incredibly short sighted design on the part of Sig, but I like the idea of being able to run standard height front sights (just hate having a uber tall front sight from an aesthetic perspective).

[GearFondler]

The incorporated BUIS has two advantages: (a) to date, nearly all of Sig's optics ready pistols have incorporated the rear sight into the RDS mounting plate, and (b) the built in BUIS mates up with a standard factory front sight. I think (a) shows lazy, incredibly short sighted design on the part of Sig, but I like the idea of being able to run standard height front sights (just hate having a uber tall front sight from an aesthetic perspective).Those are not good reasons from my perspective...
- there is no ability to adjust windage
- you're stuck with whatever rear sight picture they decided on... You prefer 1, 2 or 0 dots, Trit or Plain? Too bad.
- if you remove the RDS you lose the rear iron.
But my perspective is only opinion... I don't like it so I just won't buy it. Easy enough.

[John Hearne]

So is that the gun I would recognize as a P220 SSE?

And refresh me on what the slide assembly came from? All the .45 Auto fixed-sight long slides I see are internal extractors, and my understanding is those are rabies/herpes/AIDS and can't be made to run.

A search for fixed-sight long slides with external extractors brings up a lot of 10mm.

A search for long slides with external extractors in .45 Auto brings up a lot of adjustable sights.

Thanks.

Sig made a very small number of 5" slides with fixed sights. I've seen the number as 50 or 75. These slides did have the external extractor which can be problematic.

The initial internal extractors ran great. My skinny rail P220ST has never bobbled. I was told that Sig struggled to properly heat treat the extractors and ran into problems later in production. My first 5" P200 ran good for thousands of rounds before it had problems. I eventually beta tested the Gray Guns extractor fix and I can report if does work. On another internal extractor, it died at around 750 rounds. The replacement extractor died at, guess what, 750 rounds.

[HCM]

Those are not good reasons from my perspective...
- there is no ability to adjust windage
- you're stuck with whatever rear sight picture they decided on... You prefer 1, 2 or 0 dots, Trit or Plain? Too bad.
- if you remove the RDS you lose the rear iron.
But my perspective is only opinion... I don't like it so I just won't buy it. Easy enough.


Windage is adjustable via the dovetail front just like with the plate mounted fixed rear of the M17/18.

Just like on a carbine the RDS is your primary sighting system. The Irons are back ups, only for use if the dot goes down. The future is now.

The advantage of the RDS is it is a single focal plane sighting system. Using Irons in conjunction with the RDS is making a three focal plane system and making it into a four focal plane system. It is a literal step backwards.

Tritium and/or painted dots draw the eye, as intended, but in so doing, they detract from the use pf the primary sighting system. See above.

In SIG's M17/18 modular system as also used on the X5, if you remove the RDS you are replacing it with either an adjustable rear iron or a cover plate with a fixed rear iron. It's part of that whole modular handgun thing...

[JonInWA]

On my P320 RX Compact slide, the Romeo1 is mounted in front of the suppressor-height drift adjustable rear sight; the cut for the Romeo1 is immediately in front of the rear sight; the sight is integrally mounted on/in the slide, not on a removable plate.

However, using the SIG steel RDS protective shroud does somewhat interfere with the sight picture, but it's still usable.

Best, Jon

[Alpha Sierra]

Just like on a carbine the RDS is your primary sighting system. The Irons are back ups, only for use if the dot goes down. The future is now.

The advantage of the RDS is it is a single focal plane sighting system. Using Irons in conjunction with the RDS is making a three focal plane system and making it into a four focal plane system. It is a literal step backwards.

Tritium and/or painted dots draw the eye, as intended, but in so doing, they detract from the use pf the primary sighting system. See above..

Yep. Treating an RDS as an adjunct to irons instead of treating it as primary and independent of irons explains why it seems so many have trouble accepting or quickly getting proficient with pistol mounted RDS.

[Alpha Sierra]

It is not a true closed emitter. The prototypes they have shown will ship with two shrouds. One is a closed emitter and the other is just a hood like on the Romeo1 pro. It is IPX7 water proof while you can scuba dive with the Acro.
Question: what does it matter that it isn't a "true" closed emitter optic if it's IPX7 rated? If the Romeo 2 can take submersion to 1 meter without leakeage past the hood, who really cares if you can't take it scuba diving?

When do consumer expectations become ridiculous?

[HCM]

Question: what does it matter that it isn't a "true" closed emitter optic if it's IPX7 rated? If the Romeo 2 can take submersion to 1 meter without leakeage past the hood, who really cares if you can't take it scuba diving?

When do consumer expectations become ridiculous?

Its not about scuba. The detachable hood can be a double edge sword. It physically shields the emitter from rain, snow, mud etc but the question is how will it deal with condensation / temperature induced environmental moisture inside the hood vs a traditional “sealed” optic.

Modern hunting rifle scopes have gotten pretty good but I recall in the 70s and 80 ambient moisture getting into and fogging up scopes was a common issue.

[Alpha Sierra]

Its not about scuba. The detachable hood can be a double edge sword. It physically shields the emitter from rain, snow, mud etc but the question is how will it deal with condensation / temperature induced environmental moisture inside the hood vs a traditional “sealed” optic.
The answer would lie, at least in part, in the definition of IPX7 and what environmental conditions it's designed to resist.

If indeed the Romeo2 with hood is IPX7 rated as someone here said. I haven't verified that myself.

[Alpha Sierra]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code

IPX7: not tested against solid particle intrusion. No harmful water penetration permitted when submerged to a depth of 1 meter for 30 minutes.

[45dotACP]

At a shooting class this weekend...will have an AAR up tomorrow because this class seriously rocks, but I thought I'd share some hardware observations.

There's more Sig 320 legion X5 models here than any other single gun design. As a carry optics gun I can see why. I've had the chance to fondle a few..including some done up by Gray Guns.

Excluding the guy who is running a standard 320 as his duty gun, Quite a few of them have triggers that are lighter than my 1911s, with no thumb safety or grip safety and they weigh about what a 1911 does, whilst being chambered on 9x19.

I'm talking triggers that are sub 2lbs for some.

It made me a touch nervous tbh

Safety concerns aside, this with a red dot is a very potent combo. They'll probably be solid contenders with the regular production guns (CZ, Tanfo, etc) and they're clearly the leader of the pack in carry optics.


Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Eyesquared]

The answer would lie, at least in part, in the definition of IPX7 and what environmental conditions it's designed to resist.

If indeed the Romeo2 with hood is IPX7 rated as someone here said. I haven't verified that myself.

It's not just the issue of water intrusion, it's the issue of moisture in the air trapped inside the optic when you attach the hood. Think purging optics with inert gas, that sort of thing.

[Alpha Sierra]

It's not just the issue of water intrusion, it's the issue of moisture in the air trapped inside the optic when you attach the hood. Think purging optics with inert gas, that sort of thing.
Probably right. I don't think about this too much because I don't think a closed emitter RDS is a necessity for me.

[zaitcev]

Yep. Treating an RDS as an adjunct to irons instead of treating it as primary and independent of irons explains why it seems so many have trouble accepting or quickly getting proficient with pistol mounted RDS.
It's not entirely independent. You still use the front sight when drawing. This method is quick and eliminates any delay of searching for the dot. So, unlike a rifle or a competition pistol, the iron sights are still critically important for operation of a combat pistol with an optical sight. I do agree though that to ask for tritium shows that the shooter isn't utilizing the optic. And asking for a front fiber of the same color as the dot might be a little self-defeating in some lighting conditions.

[HCM]

It's not entirely independent. You still use the front sight when drawing. This method is quick and eliminates any delay of searching for the dot. So, unlike a rifle or a competition pistol, the iron sights are still critically important for operation of a combat pistol with an optical sight. I do agree though that to ask for tritium shows that the shooter isn't utilizing the optic. And asking for a front fiber of the same color as the dot might be a little self-defeating in some lighting conditions.

No. You don’t still use the front sight while drawing. Alpha Sierra is spot on here.

Read what I wrote above again about 1 focal plane vs 3 vs 4.

Using the front sight to index the dot is a crutch masking poor draw /index and wastes time.

The only reason to have irons in the window at all is because PMO technology is not yet at the level of reliability of rifle mounted RDS. As PMO reliability improves to where rifles are now, I can see flip up pistol BUIS becoming a thing.

[El Cid]

It's not entirely independent. You still use the front sight when drawing. This method is quick and eliminates any delay of searching for the dot. So, unlike a rifle or a competition pistol, the iron sights are still critically important for operation of a combat pistol with an optical sight. I do agree though that to ask for tritium shows that the shooter isn't utilizing the optic. And asking for a front fiber of the same color as the dot might be a little self-defeating in some lighting conditions.

As HCM explained - you’re doing it wrong. Take a class from a reputable trainer that is specifically geared to pistols with red dots.

[Redhat]

Would it be best to tape over or remove the front sight all together when first learning?

When rifle red dots first came out we used to close the front lens cover to help students learn to keep both eyes open. The rear BUIS was also kept down.

Sage Dynamics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HloKf9WifJg

[HCM]

It's not entirely independent. You still use the front sight when drawing. This method is quick and eliminates any delay of searching for the dot. So, unlike a rifle or a competition pistol, the iron sights are still critically important for operation of a combat pistol with an optical sight. I do agree though that to ask for tritium shows that the shooter isn't utilizing the optic. And asking for a front fiber of the same color as the dot might be a little self-defeating in some lighting conditions.


No. You don’t still use the front sight while drawing. Alpha Sierra is spot on here.

Read what I wrote above again about 1 focal plane vs 3 vs 4.

Using the front sight to index the dot is a crutch masking poor draw /index and wastes time.

The only reason to have irons in the window at all is because PMO technology is not yet at the level of reliability of rifle mounted RDS. As PMO reliability improves to where rifles are now, I can see flip up pistol BUIS becoming a thing.

Since you are a fan of SIG, here is a video from the SIG academy on this topic. In the beginning of the video the instructor talks about people using the front sight to acquire the dot, a technique known elsewhere as “casting” for its similarity to casting a fishing rod.


https://youtu.be/uwI0wIedlg8

Since you are in central TX, PF member Asian Jedi will be holding classes near San Antonio in March and October.

Another solid option for RDS training in central TX is Bryan Veliz of Slytac training.

[YVK]

Would it be best to tape over or remove the front sight all together when first learning?



I can't give a complete answer because I've never taped mine. I do know that removal works just fine, and does force you to start paying attention to index / kinesthetics etc in a way that I've never done before. Generations of open shooters have been able to learn how to do it withoiut even having an option of irons. I now have setups that all my guns, carry and competition, have at least a front sight, and I never use them to get to the dot. I am unconvinced that it is even worth the time to use them as an intermediate learning aid.



Separately, in regards to SIG optic: I think that discussing the Romeo hood properties is a bit too early. I think we need to start with finding out if SIG electro-optics products, as they call it, are worth putting on duty / carry guns. From my limited observational experience, I would put a DPP on a duty gun before I trusted a Romeo.


Finally, not to nitpick but the dots are two focal plane sighting system, not single. The dot exists within focal plane of a lens. We're target focused but the eyes still have to be able to collect information from two different planes. This has been largely a theoretical thing for me but recently I got my first pair of progressive glasses, encouraged by GJM, and they brought out that thing.

[Alpha Sierra]

It's not entirely independent. You still use the front sight when drawing. This method is quick and eliminates any delay of searching for the dot. So, unlike a rifle or a competition pistol, the iron sights are still critically important for operation of a combat pistol with an optical sight. I do agree though that to ask for tritium shows that the shooter isn't utilizing the optic. And asking for a front fiber of the same color as the dot might be a little self-defeating in some lighting conditions.
Using irons to find the dot is a crutch to make up for a weak presentation. The answer is to train more.

Irons are there only for the very infrequent occasion that your RDS isn't working.

I have at the moment only one RDS equipped pistol. And because it's a competition firearm, it doesn't have sights tall enough to be seen through the glass. Never had any problems finding the dot. Probably because I've had presbyopia for so long that I learned to rely on my index to align the sights for me in order to have any semblance of a quick draw.

[Alpha Sierra]

Would it be best to tape over or remove the front sight all together when first learning?

When rifle red dots first came out we used to close the front lens cover to help students learn to keep both eyes open. The rear BUIS was also kept down.

Sage Dynamics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HloKf9WifJg

One thing that helped me tremendously was to give up the tactical turtle/hunched over posture. Having your head erect, slightly bent elbows, and looking out the center of the eye socket made finding the dot on the draw and tracking it through recoil much easier.

[Gio]

PF persons, who object to using Sig's, don't trust the company. The company has demonstrated suspect ethics. Those not trusting companies usually don't trust their products. Many can point to examples of defective Sig products and can connect the products to faulty policy. Here many have made a good case against Sig. The forum has a large number of members who carry guns for a living. I am a civilian who carries a handgun and usually base my choices on what PF professionals recommend. I do not subscribe to the idea that a brand might be good enough for a civilian to carry.

Long thread, didn't read it all. This pretty much sums up my feelings. Ever since Ron Cohen took over Sig and did the same thing to the brand that he did to Kimber, it's hard to get behind the company's products. The P320 is awesome in concept and represents a real step forward/revolution in handgun design that I think other companies (including Glock) will likely attempt to copy in the future. Unfortunately, the execution has been awful. Being a .gov customer doesn't get you any better product QA either, as DoD is painfully learning.

[Gio]

Using irons to find the dot is a crutch to make up for a weak presentation. The answer is to train more.


There is a lot of truth here. If your index is consistent and repeatable, the dot will be there. Hunting for irons to find the dot is a bandaid to an inconsistent index and will lead to hunting for the dot in any kind of non-standard shooting position.

[HCM]

Would it be best to tape over or remove the front sight all together when first learning?

When rifle red dots first came out we used to close the front lens cover to help students learn to keep both eyes open. The rear BUIS was also kept down.

Sage Dynamics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HloKf9WifJg

With a long gun you have four points of contact so index and the dot being in the window to a quite is not really a thing. You were talking about a different issue or issues.Two eyes open is preferable but you can run a red dot with one eye.

The pistol issues are 1) retraining shooters who spent years or decades training to look for the front sight to
Look at the target; 2) Getting those shooters to admit the reason the dot is not in the window is because their prior index with iron sites is a lot sloppier than they want to admit.

Usually the issue is casting. They are presenting the handgun picking up the front sight then dropping it into the rear notch then shifting focus to the target because now the dot is in the window. They are taking what should be a one step process of looking through the optic at the target and making it a four step process.

[HCM]

There is a lot of truth here. If your index is consistent and repeatable, the dot will be there. Hunting for irons to find the dot is a bandaid to an inconsistent index and will lead to hunting for the dot in any kind of non-standard shooting position.

The real proof of this for us mortals being how much faster the sites appear when you return to iron sites after training with a dot.

[Alpha Sierra]

The real proof of this for us mortals being how much faster the sites appear when you return to iron sites after training with a dot.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if I shoot Production after 6 - 8 months of shooting nothing but Carry Optics this year.

[GJM]

BUIS on a red dot pistol is sort of like the fire extinguisher on an aircraft. There is nothing good about needing BUIS on your red dot pistol, or the fire extinguisher on your aircraft. However, with both the extinguisher and BUIS, if you need them, you will be really happy you have them available.

My number one competition pistol is a Gen 4 Glock 17, direct milled for a SRO, with Ameriglo tritium BUIS. I verified zero after installing the BUIS, but have not fired a shot since using them.

[YVK]

It'll be interesting to see what happens if I shoot Production after 6 - 8 months of shooting nothing but Carry Optics this year.

I myself won't go back, if I went irons again, I would do the Limited. Based on observations of local shooters who've done that, the results are underwhelming.

[Alpha Sierra]

I myself won't go back, if I went irons again, I would do the Limited. Based on observations of local shooters who've done that, the results are underwhelming.

I don't mind the extra mag changes. Limited minor sucks almost as much as limited 10......

[Bucky]

I don't mind the extra mag changes. Limited minor sucks almost as much as limited 10......

I’m stuck shooting Carry Optics - 10 until Spring time arrives. :( :(

[Nephrology]

BUIS on a red dot pistol is sort of like the fire extinguisher on an aircraft. There is nothing good about needing BUIS on your red dot pistol, or the fire extinguisher on your aircraft. However, with both the extinguisher and BUIS, if you need them, you will be really happy you have them available.

My number one competition pistol is a Gen 4 Glock 17, direct milled for a SRO, with Ameriglo tritium BUIS. I verified zero after installing the BUIS, but have not fired a shot since using them.

What trigger/other parts do you have in your Gen 4s?

[TCFD273]

Yes, almost every A/M/GM USPSA shooter I know, that is shooting CO, has started shooting CO with a Legion, or switched from something else in CO to a Legion. Between AZ, MT and PF folks, I know at least a few dozen who have gone over to the Legion in CO. They seem especially popular with 2011 Limited/Open shooters, because the weight, grip angle and shape of the grip is apparently very 2011 like. The Canik appeals to some Nils fan boys, and budget oriented shooters. Glocks are mostly new shooters, cops, and guys with beards. Interestingly, almost every M class CO Glock shooter I know, is shooting a 17, and most of them with a SRO.

Intellectually, I love the Legion. I just really dislike shooting it and feel very much more in tune with how the dot tracks with a Glock. When my wife asks me to do something with one of her Legions, I have to really bite my tongue to not make a fuss. I don’t believe it is just subjective, because my recent classifiers are nearly ten percent higher with the 17 than with the Legion over the summer. More importantly, I just plain enjoy shooting more with a Glock than the Sig. Obviously that is unique to me, as the people I know shooting a Legion really like them and feel their performance is better with the Sig. A bunch of them have really strong feelings about a Glock, and wouldn’t shoot one if you paid them to.

I played around this weekend after my match with a Legion that had trigger work done by The Sig Armorer, and a Shadow 2 milled for CO.

If I was to switch from Glock, it would be the Shadow 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DpdG]

Regarding the DHS/ICE approved version- I understand there is a specific SKU agents are required to purchase if they want to carry a POW on duty. Can anyone provide that SKU?

HCM