Jeep Gladiators Selling Poorly - Now with Big Dealer Incentives

[RevolverRob]

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/10/jeep-gladiator-sluggish-sales-discounts-incentives/

tl;dr:

Up to $9,000 in incentives from some dealers
Poorest selling vehicle in Jeep's lineup

___

Get one now, if you want one, I suspect they won't be around in three model years.

[Grey]

Man, they look way better in photos than in person... They also charged way too much money.

[BehindBlueI's]

The MSRP pricing is drag-your-dick-in-broken-glass level retarded. If I want a truck for truck stuff the Ram Classic is a much better deal. If I want a Jeep for Jeep stuff, the Wrangler remains the better deal.

It doesn't help that it's fugly.

[Wendell]

If you watch any of the YouTube-based automotive influencers, though, you'd think that the Gladiator is the best new vehicle ever made. (I watch a lot of YouTube.)

It's a reminder (for me) of for whom they really work.

[OlongJohnson]

Found a local dealer with a manual-transmission Overland in white for >$10k off MSRP. Might hafta go check it out.

[LOKNLOD]

They were certainly the hot ticket at SEMA this year. I'm seeing quite a few of them around, but:
1. The rubicons look "right" and the other models are all disproportionate. Sport models look like shit unless you toss on a lift and 35s
2. The rubicons cost an arm and a leg, everyone wants to pay sport prices
3. Nobody wants to be a first-year buyer of a new FCA vehicle.
3a. Especially when it's been announced that it would be coming the following year with the diesel engine everyone thinks they want

[Dan_S]

Wouldn’t buy a Jeep anyway.


For the kind of money you’ll drop on one of those unreliable pieces of junk you could buy a Toyota Hilux, Hilux Surf, or Land Cruiser in good shape.

[Le Français]

Wouldn’t buy a Jeep anyway.


For the kind of money you’ll drop on one of those unreliable pieces of junk you could buy a Toyota Hilux, Hilux Surf, or Land Cruiser in good shape.

Yeah, unreliable vehicles are just headaches. I drive a Ram at work, but if I’m spending my own money, hello Lexus.

[Dan_S]

Yeah, unreliable vehicles are just headaches. I drive a Ram at work, but if I’m spending my own money, hello Lexus.

No kidding. While I don’t ever see living in a situation where I wouldn’t need a truck, or body on frame SUV(unless my live aboard sail boat fantasies come to pass) I’d be all over a Lexus or Acura. Actually, really want a used Lexus 460...maybe when the Taco dies... Or maybe a Landy.

https://www.japaneseclassics.com/contact/



https://back40imports.com/



I’ve emailed and spoken on the phone with Dave at Back 40. Would definitely do business with him based on our interaction this far.





My ‘96 4Runner was awesome would buy another. https://www.japaneseclassics.com/vehicle/1995-toyota-hilux-ssr-g/

[JRB]

Wouldn’t buy a Jeep anyway.


For the kind of money you’ll drop on one of those unreliable pieces of junk you could buy a Toyota Hilux, Hilux Surf, or Land Cruiser in good shape.

Not in the US, you can't. Not unless they're 25 years old. Tacoma's and 4Runners are nice but there's no diesel or solid axle options and manual transmissions are special order only, and only on the Tacomas.

People started figuring out that the 100 and 200 series LC's are awesome and worth the money, now they're going up in price.

But here I am in the Middle East, still dreaming of bringing home one of these twin turbo diesel V8, triple locked, live axle, 6spd manual, quad cab pickup bed 70 series Land Cruisers.


If you can get a Rubicon with a manual trans the new Wranglers are pretty decent, just overpriced. Avoid the Barbie-Jeep trim levels and avoid the auto trans and you'll spare yourself 90% of the heartache you can have with those things.

[RevolverRob]

Jeeps - all of them - are pants on head retarded MSRPs, to me at least.

Worse road manners than a school bus, medium reliability, and moderate off road capability.

But if you could get ~10k off MSRP on the Overland model like OJ found - then it gets a lot less retarded. With a manual transmission? Do it. Drive it for 60k miles and sell it practically for a profit. Jeeps with manual transmissions will always be in demand amongst the enthusiast side of the camp. Like manual equipped Tacomas. Used ones turn out to be unobtainium and end up bringing a premium.

Also, maybe I’m pants-on-head retarded, but the Gladiator is the only model in the Wrangler line that makes ANY SENSE as a daily driven vehicle. The four door modes have so little storage it’s stupid. And the two-doors are only marginally better if you rip the backseat out. At least the Gladiator with a cap or tonneau has usable storage space.

[Dan_S]

The frame quality is questionable, at best - one that was maybe two years old, front axle detached itself from the frame at highway speed, and it came into my uncles shop for repair. You notice a trend when it’s mostly Jeeps and Rangers coming in for frame work.

[willie]

Jeeps rank very low on quality surveys. Mechanics seldom praise them. My two leaked and leaked.

[Farswot]

Showed me lots of stupid-broken Jeeps on warranty repairs.

Said virtually every one sold will be back, if not for recalls, for just failing.

Mostly drivetrain problems.

Please, never buy one is his advice.

I'll keep my '67 Kaiser-Jeep M54A1 5-ton cargo, the "Big Mac Attack".

Farswot

48564

[Mjolnir]

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/10/jeep-gladiator-sluggish-sales-discounts-incentives/

tl;dr:

Up to $9,000 in incentives from some dealers
Poorest selling vehicle in Jeep's lineup

___

Get one now, if you want one, I suspect they won't be around in three model years.

It’s CHRYSLER.

Enough said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JRB]

It’s CHRYSLER.

Enough said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

At my last wrenching job, I was the shop foreman of the largest high performance shop in my state. Two in ground dynos, one of them AWD, 7 lifts, the works. 1000+hp Corvettes, Hellcats, and Mustangs, were common builds and customers. Lots of superchargers and lift kits in all of the big 3's trucks and tons of Wranglers, especially once our in-house full time tuning and software wizard figured out how to remap Dodge auto trans mapping to work with superchargers, lift kits, gearing changes, etc. We had a LOT of 3.6L Wranglers with various supercharger kits, Hemi V8 swaps, etc come through for tuning after other shops screwed it all up.
(If you go that route, stay with the 3.6L V6 and install a Magnuson SC kit, or the Edelbrock SC which is a rebadged Magnuson. If you need more HP than that, do an LS swap don't bother with the Hemi)

I worked on some exotics too, I've wrenched on Ferraris (mostly 360's and F430's), Porsches (lots of 996/997's) AMG's, //M's etc. The Japanese stuff too of course - tons of Evos, WRX's, etc by the boatload, especially WRX's since they love to nuke rod bearings and ring lands.

In almost 20 years of wrenching on performance cars and race cars, I crewed for Formula D twice, built demo cars for Monster Energy and Icon, did burnouts in Hoonigan's lot a few times, and drove a 1500whp Mustang through 5 states just to prove we could.
I'm still a nobody in the big picture, but I've lived and worked in that world long enough to have been a player.

Through all of that I learned one very sage and important thing;

Ferrari, Chrysler, Benz, Toyota, doesn't matter what badge is on it. They're all the same piece of shit as anything else.

What *DOES* matter are the specific models. Every brand has its turds and its legends, and regrettably you can find examples of both in the same body or chassis in many cases, especially with the big three.

If you're going to buy a Wrangler to do Wrangler things, get an early 00's TJ Rubicon with the 4.0L.
If you absolutely need 4 doors, get a JK Unlimited 3.6L Rubicon with the 6spd manual and you'll live happily ever after. Avoid the lower trim models, avoid the 3.8L V6 models, avoid auto transmissions unless it's behind a 4.0L.
Avoid literally every other model on Jeep's lot except the Grand Cherokee SRT models. The smaller and cuter it is, the bigger piece of shit it is. Run away from anything with Chrysler 4cyl and the 9spd auto trans like it has SarsHerpaCoronaAids. Same for any trucks or SUV's that have the dial-a-shifter HVAC knob instead of a shift lever of some kind. They have NOT figured that shit out yet.

If you don't want to spend Rubicon money but still want to do Jeep stuff in a Jeep, buy a '90's XJ Cherokee 4.0L 4x4. Auto or manual works great in those and everything is cheap and pretty simple, and if beat it up a bit doing 4x4 stuff it's no huge loss.

[camsdaddy]

I think jeeps are a lot like Harley's and glocks. The ones I have seen that have given the most trouble have been modified by the owner. Most often it's not the product that causes the failure but the mods.

[JRB]

I had a 2004 TJ Rubicon with the 5-speed manual transmission (they switched to the 6-speed in 2005) that I traded in for a 2011 Scion xB a few months before my son was born.

Shut up. I know I’m stupid. On the plus side, I can haul over 300 board feet of 8’ dimensional lumber completely inside the Scion with all the doors and windows closed. Can’t do that with a Jeep. :)

Child seat + 2-door anything = misery.
I wouldn't call that stupid, I'd call that pragmatic and correctly prioritizing what matters in life.

The world's best, finest, and sharpest knife doesn't help much when you need a wrench or a plunger.


Besides, when it comes time for you to enjoy something else, a 100 series Land Cruiser can do 85% of what that Rubicon can do but with much nicer road manners, more space, and best of all - 4 doors!

[fixer]

I'm a former Ford guy from way back and now a Toyota geek through and through for several dozen well founded reasons. I like to run trails and camp (I won't say overland). The 4runner and Taco are great. The Tundra can be made to work.

However the ease that Rubicons glide over the stupidest obstacle is mind boggling. The Runners and Tacos (and FJs) can make it in stock form on the same trail but its dicey.

I've semi seriously thought about getting an Unlimited Rubicon for trail use only... but mother of effer not for $60,000 out the door.

Dan Grec's Jeep turned out to be unbelievably reliable in his Africa adventure.

http://theroadchoseme.com/

However I'm not sure if his was an outlier or not. Everyone I've known with a Jeep made in the last 15 years or so had really unbelievably bad luck. Neighbors, co-workers, friends...

So while I have a definite crush on Rubicons on the trail, the other 355 days a year I really don't. And where I live I have to have something that is easily 300k mile reliable with minimal, easy to do repairs.

[hufnagel]

The MSRP pricing is drag-your-dick-in-broken-glass level retarded. If I want a truck for truck stuff the Ram Classic is a much better deal. If I want a Jeep for Jeep stuff, the Wrangler remains the better deal.

It doesn't help that it's fugly.

There is/was a brand new diesel crew cab short bed in cali for $21k after incentives.
I'm not ashamed to admit, I started doing the math on how much ramen I'd need to eat to be able to save enough to fliy out, buy it, and drive it back.

[deflave]

You couldn't give me a Jeep. I have no idea how they sell the amount they do.

[Nephrology]

I hate Jeeps.

Here in Denver about 20% of the cars on the road it seems are some lifted jeep with at least one lightbar. Their aftermarket offroad bumpers with winches are ALWAYS immaculate. Here is one of my favorite examples - please note the light bar on the hood. A great use of $60k no doubt. The "angry face" aftermarket fascia is just icing on the cake.

https://i.imgur.com/kdQjfI7.jpg

These same drivers also for some reason think having a big beefy truck is automatically a useful asset for snow driving (without snow tires of course), and end up stranded on the side of the road. My little Mazda (white, behind Jeep above) trucks along just fine.

I can't say I understand the folks who finance a diesel F250 Brokeback Mountain trim and daily drive that to and from their IT job either, but at least the pickup bed is useful. Jeeps don't even have that going for them. They are poorly made brodozers that sell purely because of their macho appeal (beater offroad projects not included) and I can't for the life of me understand it.

My girlfriend owns a Tacoma which is more than enough truck for us. If/when I buy a 4x4 it will be a Toyota/Lexus w/o a doubt.

[BehindBlueI's]

There is/was a brand new diesel crew cab short bed in cali for $21k after incentives.
I'm not ashamed to admit, I started doing the math on how much ramen I'd need to eat to be able to save enough to fliy out, buy it, and drive it back.

I saw that truck pop up in my Google feed. I noted there were some CA-specific rebates for the diesel but didn't know if you had to be a CA resident *shudder* to qualify.

[HeavyDuty]

I was all hot for one of these until I came to my senses - I’m not willing to subject myself to Jeep pricing and reliability. Maybe in a few model years...

But, it might be a good NH vehicle. I suspect my CRV is just as good in snow, though - and I don’t off-road.

[mtnbkr]

My little Mazda (white, behind Jeep above) trucks along just fine.
I don't think people appreciate how well a modern car, with traction control and ABS, does in snow until it gets deep enough for the front end to start plowing. My 2 non-4x4s (Ford Focus and Honda Odyssey) both truck right along. My '97 4Runner, with its more primitive drivetrain and no locking diff, does great in deep snow, but isn't any better in shallower stuff. I mainly drive it in snow to deal with snowplow-created obstacles having damaged the bumper on the Focus years ago after not realizing how tall an ice-berm was.

Also, regarding the factory new costs for these Jeeps, 60k will build one helluva offroad machine even if you have to buy the donor vehicle with that 60k.

Chris

[Greg]

I hate Jeeps.

Here in Denver about 20% of the cars on the road it seems are some lifted jeep with at least one lightbar. Their aftermarket offroad bumpers with winches are ALWAYS immaculate. Here is one of my favorite examples - please note the light bar on the hood. A great use of $60k no doubt. The "angry face" aftermarket fascia is just icing on the cake.

https://i.imgur.com/kdQjfI7.jpg

These same drivers also for some reason think having a big beefy truck is automatically a useful asset for snow driving (without snow tires of course), and end up stranded on the side of the road. My little Mazda (white, behind Jeep above) trucks along just fine.

I can't say I understand the folks who finance a diesel F250 Brokeback Mountain trim and daily drive that to and from their IT job either, but at least the pickup bed is useful. Jeeps don't even have that going for them. They are poorly made brodozers that sell purely because of their macho appeal (beater offroad projects not included) and I can't for the life of me understand it.

My girlfriend owns a Tacoma which is more than enough truck for us. If/when I buy a 4x4 it will be a Toyota/Lexus w/o a doubt.

Mall crawlers are everywhere.

A case of rainbow flag stickers could be a lot of fun....

[Borderland]

They're going to have a hard time selling those. That's the most butt ugly abomination I've seen in a long time. Jeep must be doing the General Motors MSRP thing, put an MSRP sticker on it 20% over what a dealer can actually sell them for. I don't know about anyone else but I'm only going to play that game for about 30 minutes when I want a new vehicle. Put a decent MSRP on it to begin with and you might get a few sales. I walked on a Chevy dealer last summer because of those inflated MSRP stickers. Bought a Toyota.

[Borderland]

My ‘96 4Runner was awesome would buy another.

I see a lot of new 4Runners around here. I bought one because of the price when they discounted the remaining 2019's. I miss my pickup tho.

[RoyGBiv]

I've owned several 80's and 90's vintage Wranglers. All manual transmissions. I've only ever purchased one automatic transmission car for myself, the one I'm driving today.

Back in around 2009 or so I was looking for a new car and test drove the 4-door Wrangler, hoping it would be a better ride than my old 2-doors were. I bought a Mazda3. Not only were the ergos relatively the same in the 4-door, but the manual transmission was a total PITA to drive. Something about the feel of it, the very low gearing in 1st. I drove the auto version also and would have bought that if I had decided to buy the 4-door.

A few years later I spent a week driving my SiL's new-ish 4-door Wrangler around VA and NC (OBX!). Absolutely hated that thing on the hilly highways of VA. Cruise was constantly downshifting on relatively small hills, just to maintain highway speed. Awful gas mileage. Too bad.

I've got my fingers crossed for the revamped Bronco, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Nephrology]

I don't think people appreciate how well a modern car, with traction control and ABS, does in snow until it gets deep enough for the front end to start plowing. My 2 non-4x4s (Ford Focus and Honda Odyssey) both truck right along. My '97 4Runner, with its more primitive drivetrain and no locking diff, does great in deep snow, but isn't any better in shallower stuff. I mainly drive it in snow to deal with snowplow-created obstacles having damaged the bumper on the Focus years ago after not realizing how tall an ice-berm was.

Also, regarding the factory new costs for these Jeeps, 60k will build one helluva offroad machine even if you have to buy the donor vehicle with that 60k.

Chris

Absolutely. If anything, part time AWD is a little better than 4x4 for the average metro area commuter. Not only do you save on gas/have better driving mechanics than most 4x4s, but you get the bonus of a little extra help in rainy weather/cornering on dry roads as well.

I totally get the appeal of a big truck/SUV, particularly when I finally am able to live my best life and move to a more rural area, but I have a gun habit to feed. As much as I wanted to justify a body-on-frame 4x4 when I went to buy the Mazda, I balked at the idea of paying $10k more for a car I knew I would use as a daily driver. My wallet is better off for it.

[Mark D]

There is/was a brand new diesel crew cab short bed in cali for $21k after incentives.
I'm not ashamed to admit, I started doing the math on how much ramen I'd need to eat to be able to save enough to fliy out, buy it, and drive it back.

At that price I'd consider it. Link by any chance?

[Borderland]

I was all hot for one of these until I came to my senses - I’m not willing to subject myself to Jeep pricing and reliability. Maybe in a few model years...

But, it might be a good NH vehicle. I suspect my CRV is just as good in snow, though - and I don’t off-road.

CRV is good on ice and snow, my wife has one. I used to have a Duramax 4x4 but drove her car on ice and snow. Way better. You need anti skid AWD in that crap. Just about all the new Japanese and Euro cars have that.

[Nephrology]

CRV is good on ice and snow, my wife has one. I used to have a Duramax 4x4 but drove her car on ice and snow. Way better. You need anti skid AWD in that crap. Just about all the new Japanese and Euro cars have that.

both my current and previous cars were AWD crossovers and they're both great all-purpose commuter vehicles. Jalopnik and other enthusiasts rag on them, but the extra clearance + part time AWD systems are a genuine benefit in the snow, and they have just enough extra space to make them useful for longer trips. Probably a little too small if you have a >4 person household, but otherwise it's hard to overstate their practicality.

I know a wagon would probably be just as good, but good luck finding one. I'm not sure I could name more than a handful of current production wagon models, and the most obvious (subaru outback) is basically a truck with a sticker price to match. Not sure I trust them after their headgasket issues either.

[Borderland]

I don't think people appreciate how well a modern car, with traction control and ABS, does in snow until it gets deep enough for the front end to start plowing. My 2 non-4x4s (Ford Focus and Honda Odyssey) both truck right along. My '97 4Runner, with its more primitive drivetrain and no locking diff, does great in deep snow, but isn't any better in shallower stuff. I mainly drive it in snow to deal with snowplow-created obstacles having damaged the bumper on the Focus years ago after not realizing how tall an ice-berm was.

Also, regarding the factory new costs for these Jeeps, 60k will build one helluva offroad machine even if you have to buy the donor vehicle with that 60k.

Chris

Those are my observations as well. The AWD, traction control, ABS vehicles that everyone seems to build these days work very well until the snow gets really deep. I've never had one but my wife has had several. I've always had a pickup of some sort. I drove 2WD Toyotas (chained them up) until they started building 4WD sometime in the 80's. Then I bought those. With good tires, 18" of snow won't stop a 4WD Tacoma or 4Runner. They'll plow right thru it. I've tested both. Yuge fan.

[ST911]

I had a 2004 TJ Rubicon with the 5-speed manual transmission (they switched to the 6-speed in 2005) that I traded in for a 2011 Scion xB a few months before my son was born.

The courage you've demonstrated in making this public confession is inspiring.

[LockedBreech]

Wouldn’t buy a Jeep anyway.


For the kind of money you’ll drop on one of those unreliable pieces of junk you could buy a Toyota Hilux, Hilux Surf, or Land Cruiser in good shape.

Quoted for fucking emphasis.

My ex girlfriend had a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee that gave me years of nightmares trying to fix its electrical issues. My very capable brother and dad who are both great mechanics were similarly flummoxed. Once the car alarm went off and the windows rolled down JUST DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD. A few months ago I took a road trip with a friend and her family in a very nicely appointed 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Guess what happened on the road trip? Dead battery twice and weird electrical issues with the windows.

I would rather drive a goddamn Big Wheel.

[Borderland]

Quoted for fucking emphasis.

My ex girlfriend had a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee that gave me years of nightmares trying to fix its electrical issues. My very capable brother and dad who are both great mechanics were similarly flummoxed. Once the car alarm went off and the windows rolled down JUST DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD. A few months ago I took a road trip with a friend and her family in a very nicely appointed 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Guess what happened on the road trip? Dead battery twice and weird electrical issues with the windows.

I would rather drive a goddamn Big Wheel.

They aren't building those in England, are they?

[LockedBreech]

They aren't building those in England, are they?

If they were it would be fitting revenge for the American Revolution.

[RevolverRob]

So to be clear - I wouldn't buy a a post-AMC built Jeep, ever. In fact, nothing from the big three made after 1995 will ever be in my ownership again.

And for that matter, nothing made after 2011 will likely be in my ownership ever again, either. I was just talking to my wife about how if something happened to the FJ Cruiser and it were totaled, I'd take the cash and use it to go get in on a proper FJ40 or 60, a Brazilian Banderiante, a LHD Nissan Patrol from Europe, or a Series Land Rover.

RE: Jeep owners are a-holes...not all of them, just like...98% of them. Just this morning an asshole in a 4-door JK "mall crawler" cut me off, twice, in three blocks. I need to order bumpers and a ram bar for the FJ, just for bashing JKs out of the way. Judging by how clean the Jeep was, it is stored in a garage, and the wheel-tire combo indicates it has never been offroad, ever. A roll of these: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=for+rectaluse+only+stickers&crid=DYPOVZLM1FQT&sprefix=for+rectal+use+only%2Caps%2C181&ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_2_19 Would be even better than rainbow stickers.

[BehindBlueI's]

They're going to have a hard time selling those. That's the most butt ugly abomination I've seen in a long time. Jeep must be doing the General Motors MSRP thing, put an MSRP sticker on it 20% over what a dealer can actually sell them for. I don't know about anyone else but I'm only going to play that game for about 30 minutes when I want a new vehicle. Put a decent MSRP on it to begin with and you might get a few sales. I walked on a Chevy dealer last summer because of those inflated MSRP stickers. Bought a Toyota.

With my Ram, I just did it like seeking bids on a work project. I sent out my specs along with a request to bid to every dealership in the radius I was willing to go to pick it up, roughly a 90 minute drive circle. Those that responded with out-the-door pricing minus sales tax (since some were in another state, didn't want to muddy the water with that) got a second round. The current low bid is $XX, I am buying the truck on (date). I ended up buying from the closest dealership who was within $150 of the lowest bid but tossed in a spray-in bedliner making it both the cheapest and the most convenient. When I bought my wife's 200S it was during an "employee pricing" promotion that the manufacturers occasionally run. We bought from the same dealership. Only used cars or with a trade-in do I bother to dicker at the dealership any longer. I have had reasonable luck selling my vehicles instead of trading them in, but I'm not trading in high dollar stuff. Usually it's 15-20 years old when I'm ready to let it go.

[camsdaddy]

Quoted for fucking emphasis.

My ex girlfriend had a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee that gave me years of nightmares trying to fix its electrical issues. My very capable brother and dad who are both great mechanics were similarly flummoxed. Once the car alarm went off and the windows rolled down JUST DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD. A few months ago I took a road trip with a friend and her family in a very nicely appointed 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Guess what happened on the road trip? Dead battery twice and weird electrical issues with the windows.

I would rather drive a goddamn Big Wheel.

I don't think it will change your mind but wonder if the TIPM has been the issue.

[LockedBreech]

I don't think it will change your mind but wonder if the TIPM has been the issue.

I don't know much about cars, what's that?

I confess to having been spoiled over the last 15 years by owning a Honda for 11 years and a Subaru for 4. Big fan of vehicles just working every time I turn them on (Though my Outback eats batteries a lot faster than my Accord did, the 2016 Outback needing new ones every 2.25 years or so versus the 7-8 I got with the 2004 Accord.

[Borderland]

With my Ram, I just did it like seeking bids on a work project. I sent out my specs along with a request to bid to every dealership in the radius I was willing to go to pick it up, roughly a 90 minute drive circle. Those that responded with out-the-door pricing minus sales tax (since some were in another state, didn't want to muddy the water with that) got a second round. The current low bid is $XX, I am buying the truck on (date). I ended up buying from the closest dealership who was within $150 of the lowest bid but tossed in a spray-in bedliner making it both the cheapest and the most convenient. When I bought my wife's 200S it was during an "employee pricing" promotion that the manufacturers occasionally run. We bought from the same dealership. Only used cars or with a trade-in do I bother to dicker at the dealership any longer. I have had reasonable luck selling my vehicles instead of trading them in, but I'm not trading in high dollar stuff. Usually it's 15-20 years old when I'm ready to let it go.

That's probably the smartest way to do it. That's how the state and feds do it for any number of vehicles they replace every year. They also have auctions to dispose of used vehicles.

Selling a used vehicle yourself takes a lot of the dickering out of buying new. The first question they always ask is "do you have a trade". My answer is always no. If you say yes and hand over your keys so they can drive your trade they may hold your keys hostage to keep the negotiating going. That's going to take more of your time. Selling to a private party is easy if you're willing to talk to people who are interested. Price it right and return texts and calls. I sell all of my used vehicles in under a week advertising on craigslist. Dealers will always only offer about 80-85% of what your trade is actually worth and surprisingly many people are fine with that because they save a few bucks on the tax of the new vehicle. My wife thinks I'm crazy but I like to sell stuff and don't mind dealing with the unwashed masses because I'm pretty unwashed myself. :D

[deflave]

Quoted for fucking emphasis.

My ex girlfriend had a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee that gave me years of nightmares trying to fix its electrical issues. My very capable brother and dad who are both great mechanics were similarly flummoxed. Once the car alarm went off and the windows rolled down JUST DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD. A few months ago I took a road trip with a friend and her family in a very nicely appointed 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Guess what happened on the road trip? Dead battery twice and weird electrical issues with the windows.

I would rather drive a goddamn Big Wheel.

I was driving a Rubicon down the highway one day (work vehicle not my own) and it started to make sounds like a Transformer.

Then the thing stalled and all electrical was zapped. Out. Gone.

Opened the hood and the battery had exploded. Guys that were more familiar with them than myself said “they do that sometimes.”

I never did find out the cause.

[SLUZENE]

Sell a chrysler made tacoma sized truck for $10k more than the tacoma. What could go wrong?

https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif

[RoyGBiv]

Selling a used vehicle yourself takes a lot of the dickering out of buying new. The first question they always ask is "do you have a trade". My answer is always no. If you say yes and hand over your keys so they can drive your trade they may hold your keys hostage to keep the negotiating going. That's going to take more of your time. Selling to a private party is easy if you're willing to talk to people who are interested. Price it right and return texts and calls. I sell all of my used vehicles in under a week advertising on craigslist. Dealers will always only offer about 80-85% of what your trade is actually worth and surprisingly many people are fine with that because they save a few bucks on the tax of the new vehicle. My wife thinks I'm crazy but I like to sell stuff and don't mind dealing with the unwashed masses because I'm pretty unwashed myself. :D

Absolutely this. Although your 80% is way generous.

Just for giggles I let a dealer quote me trade-in on my Mazda3. Offer was $3500. I sold in via Craigslist in 5 days for $6900 and the guy that wanted to buy it for his daughter is still mad at me. Snooze you loose. :p

[Nephrology]

They aren't building those in England, are they?

New land rovers are the one car I understand even less than Jeeps... girlfriends mom drives one and its in the shop every couple months. I don’t know what she paid but I imagine north of $50k at least. At least she has a Silverado for when it’s in the shop...

[hufnagel]

I hate Jeeps.

Here in Denver about 20% of the cars on the road it seems are some lifted jeep with at least one lightbar. Their aftermarket offroad bumpers with winches are ALWAYS immaculate. Here is one of my favorite examples - please note the light bar on the hood. A great use of $60k no doubt. The "angry face" aftermarket fascia is just icing on the cake.

https://i.imgur.com/kdQjfI7.jpg

These same drivers also for some reason think having a big beefy truck is automatically a useful asset for snow driving (without snow tires of course), and end up stranded on the side of the road. My little Mazda (white, behind Jeep above) trucks along just fine.

I can't say I understand the folks who finance a diesel F250 Brokeback Mountain trim and daily drive that to and from their IT job either, but at least the pickup bed is useful. Jeeps don't even have that going for them. They are poorly made brodozers that sell purely because of their macho appeal (beater offroad projects not included) and I can't for the life of me understand it.

My girlfriend owns a Tacoma which is more than enough truck for us. If/when I buy a 4x4 it will be a Toyota/Lexus w/o a doubt.

Fiat 500e on it's right side in that picture. :D

[hufnagel]

I saw that truck pop up in my Google feed. I noted there were some CA-specific rebates for the diesel but didn't know if you had to be a CA resident *shudder* to qualify.

Really? too bad. It was seriously tempted.

[Doc_Glock]

So what does this mean they are selling for now? While I love my shitty 9 year old Scion xB, I’d buy one of these Gladiators if the price was right.

I was super impressed with the xB I drove as a possible teenager car purchase. I had low expectations, but was super surprised how much nicer it was than the Element we currently rock.

[BehindBlueI's]

Really? too bad. It was seriously tempted.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32091/how-to-buy-a-2019-ram-1500-classic-diesel-for-just-21000-right-now


A healthy dealer incentive of $5,325 makes up a chunk of that, although the state of California also pitches in its fair share.

So I don't know if you have to be a CA resident to qualify but several of those discounts are CA specific or region specific.

I can't get the picture to load, so follow the link and scroll down to see the incentives.

[hufnagel]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32091/how-to-buy-a-2019-ram-1500-classic-diesel-for-just-21000-right-now



So I don't know if you have to be a CA resident to qualify but several of those discounts are CA specific or region specific.

I can't get the picture to load, so follow the link and scroll down to see the incentives.

If I had $30k disposable ($21k for the truck, $1400 taxes, $200 fuel to get it home, $200 flight, $400 in food/showers, balance in getting my wife whatever the fuck she wants so she doesn't kill me for buying ANOTHER vehicle!!!) I'd be all over that like a fat chick at an all you can eat buffet on contest night.

[Jakus]

Hopefully I can qualify for the 2% of Jeep owners that are non assholes.

I bought this 2018 JKU with the manual a few months ago and have been nothing but pleased. There are some screaming deals to be found on used manual Jeeps right now, because there are fewer buyers that can drive them or teach their kids to drive them.

I am a recent urban escapee and the Jeep fits my rural, mountainous area perfectly.

The first thing I did when I bought the Jeep was pull the OEM mud terrains off and put a new set of Duratracs on it. Most people who have trouble driving on snow or ice should stop expecting AWD, limited slip, etc to make up for running shitty tires. Our Outback has Blizzaks for winter and they make that thing look like a billy goat.

Hating on mall crawlers is certainly an enjoyable pastime, but in its element the Jeep still shines.

48579

[5pins]

I wonder what the out the door price is one one of them. My 17 year old Ram 1500 needs to be replaced.

[txdpd]

Really? too bad. It was seriously tempted.

We have recently made Chargers that are still developing the Pentastar tick. So even if you don't want the hassle of diesel maintenance, you can roll the dice on getting a diesel motor sound.

[Balisong]

Some great info in this thread. For my next vehicle (currently have a car) I'm wanting a 4x4 for sitting up higher and doing some moderate offroading when I'd like. I have it narrowed down to a 4Runner or a Wrangler (though I may also test drive a Tacoma). I've always been in love with the aesthetics of Wranglers, and when I test drove the 2 vehicles, I sort of preferred driving the Wrangler vs the 4Runner. It seemed more responsive, and I found the 4Runner to be a bit mushy with steering and braking/accelerating. But there are a lot of positives to the 4runner and the reliability issues I've heard of wranglers is very off-putting. Online, the complaints of wrangler reliability tend to be very vague. The folks in this thread have actually named some specific problems, and I'm certainly taking them to heart. I just love the look of a rugged Wrangler, but I HATE car problems and I especially don't want to pay that kind of money to have them.

[5pins]

According to the USAA car buying service, the average price in my area is around $29,000. I'm betting I can't get another $9000 off that price.

[mmc45414]

Most people who have trouble driving on snow or ice should stop expecting AWD, limited slip, etc to make up for running shitty tires. Our Outback has Blizzaks for winter and they make that thing look like a billy goat.
I have the Blizzaks on my Focus ST and it has way exceeded expectations, I imagine a Sube would be crazy.
We also have a nice F-150, but if it just a snowstorm and not a blizzard I am not shy about just taking the car.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200212/f5782ceb2e4e9e7da856876efaf8a1f1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200212/88e1d00046bb29dd4672c1fcd27f073f.jpg

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

Big Jeep fan here. I've had two TJ's, both purchased new in the 90's and built up to be off-road monsters. Traded the manual for an automatic, and ultimately rolled and totaled the second one while wheeling in WA state, not ironically on an obstacle aptly named "tip-over challenge". I also love trucks, and I've driven one almost exclusively for the last 20 years. A pile of Toyota's, and one F-150.

As much as I would LOVE to have another Jeep (Oh, I've looked), and even better yet, a damn Jeep-truck, they are way over-the-top with the Gladiator pricing. Heck, even a well optioned (read: off-road performance options) Wrangler Unlimited is insanely priced. It's like paying for the Pony these days.

You can buy a Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road for less, so that's what I did. I just past 30k, spending countless hours in the woods, on trails, and sandy beaches. Zero issues and not a single squeak or rattle to chase in the cabin.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/033dafc252262f1142e74f14c54a7257/tenor.gif?itemid=5447006

[vaspence]

Some great info in this thread. For my next vehicle (currently have a car) I'm wanting a 4x4 for sitting up higher and doing some moderate offroading when I'd like. I have it narrowed down to a 4Runner or a Wrangler (though I may also test drive a Tacoma). I've always been in love with the aesthetics of Wranglers, and when I test drove the 2 vehicles, I sort of preferred driving the Wrangler vs the 4Runner. It seemed more responsive, and I found the 4Runner to be a bit mushy with steering and braking/accelerating. But there are a lot of positives to the 4runner and the reliability issues I've heard of wranglers is very off-putting. Online, the complaints of wrangler reliability tend to be very vague. The folks in this thread have actually named some specific problems, and I'm certainly taking them to heart. I just love the look of a rugged Wrangler, but I HATE car problems and I especially don't want to pay that kind of money to have them.

I went through the same debate last year (4Runner vs Wrangler). I like the 4Runner but it didn't have the backseat room the Wrangler has for passengers (or at least that is my opinion). I ordered a pretty loaded 2019 Rubicon Unlimited (3.6, 8 speed auto) and took delivery in May 2019. My 2 boys and I drove it over 7500 miles on a trip from Virginia out west (South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, etc) last June/July without a hiccup other than a crack in the windshield while crossing Nebraska in the rain. The Jeep had no issues with power at elevation (think we were over 12,000 in Colorado) and holding speed with the cruise is not an issue. This is on the stock 285/70/17 mud terrains.

I'm currently over 21000 miles and love the jeep.

48587


FWIW I also own a Tacoma (2013 TRD Sport double cab) and the wife has a 2019 Lexus GX460 so we love us some Toyota.

[Wise_A]

Mall crawlers are everywhere.

A case of rainbow flag stickers could be a lot of fun....

Dude, what did gay folk ever do to you? :D

...

Or are you mad because they didn't? :o

[Balisong]

Big Jeep fan here. I've had two TJ's, both purchased new in the 90's and built up to be off-road monsters. Traded the manual for an automatic, and ultimately rolled and totaled the second one while wheeling in WA state, not ironically on an obstacle aptly named "tip-over challenge". I also love trucks, and I've driven one almost exclusively for the last 20 years. A pile of Toyota's, and one F-150.

As much as I would LOVE to have another Jeep (Oh, I've looked), and even better yet, a damn Jeep-truck, they are way over-the-top with the Gladiator pricing. Heck, even a well optioned (read: off-road performance options) Wrangler Unlimited is insanely priced. It's like paying for the Pony these days.

You can buy a Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road for less, so that's what I did. I just past 30k, spending countless hours in the woods, on trails, and sandy beaches. Zero issues and not a single squeak or rattle to chase in the cabin.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/033dafc252262f1142e74f14c54a7257/tenor.gif?itemid=5447006

That's the trim I will get if/when I get a 4runner.

[RevolverRob]

You can buy a Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road for less, so that's what I did. I just past 30k, spending countless hours in the woods, on trails, and sandy beaches. Zero issues and not a single squeak or rattle to chase in the cabin.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/033dafc252262f1142e74f14c54a7257/tenor.gif?itemid=5447006

If it’s anything like the FJ I’m driving you can expect that to continue for the next 140k miles.

I’ve never driven around in a 13-year old (actually, 14, it’s an ‘07 built in ‘06) vehicle that has 168k on it and doesn’t rattle or squeak.

The loudest noise the truck has is some wind noise around the driver’s door at highway speed. I haven’t chased it enough to figure out if it is a weather stripping issue or just the big square mirror out there.

The fact I can HEAR wind noise inside a truck with this mileage and age blows my mind. Also bear in mind the FJ has a plastic and vinyl floor, not carpet. So I’d expect it to be even louder than it is.

How does Toyota manage to build a vehicle that doesn’t squeak or rattle? Because Ford, GM, and Chrysler have NEVER accomplished that. I’ve had rattly Fords that has 25k on them.

[Maca]

I went through the same debate last year (4Runner vs Wrangler). I like the 4Runner but it didn't have the backseat room the Wrangler has for passengers (or at least that is my opinion). I ordered a pretty loaded 2019 Rubicon Unlimited (3.6, 8 speed auto) and took delivery in May 2019. My 2 boys and I drove it over 7500 miles on a trip from Virginia out west (South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, etc) last June/July without a hiccup other than a crack in the windshield while crossing Nebraska in the rain. The Jeep had no issues with power at elevation (think we were over 12,000 in Colorado) and holding speed with the cruise is not an issue. This is on the stock 285/70/17 mud terrains.

I'm currently over 21000 miles and love the jeep.

48587


FWIW I also own a Tacoma (2013 TRD Sport double cab) and the wife has a 2019 Lexus GX460 so we love us some Toyota.

My wife also drives a gx460, a 2020 model thats our second one, after we had a 2017. Great truck. Zero issues.

I plan on trading in my bmw m550 (sedan) and getting either a 4runner, a Wrangler, a Raptor, or another GX. After years of various cars, now that the kids are getting a little older and we are beginning to enjoy the outdoors more, i am ready for somy fluffy tires.

How do you like the Jeep compared to the GX for driving around town?

I test drove a raptor and loved it, but it is BIG for driving around town in boston so i may shy away from it.

[vaspence]

My wife also drives a gx460, a 2020 model thats our second one, after we had a 2017. Great truck. Zero issues.

I plan on trading in my bmw m550 (sedan) and getting either a 4runner, a Wrangler, a Raptor, or another GX. After years of various cars, now that the kids are getting a little older and we are beginning to enjoy the outdoors more, i am ready for somy fluffy tires.

How do you like the Jeep compared to the GX for driving around town?

I test drove a raptor and loved it, but it is BIG for driving around town in boston so i may shy away from it.

There is no comparison, the GX is a better ride on the road. That said, I think the Jeep is a great daily driver. Driving and parking it is like being in a Miata after being in a double cab, long bed Tacoma for over 12 years. Folks who drive cars maybe of the complete opposite opinion.

[Borderland]

Big Jeep fan here. I've had two TJ's, both purchased new in the 90's and built up to be off-road monsters. Traded the manual for an automatic, and ultimately rolled and totaled the second one while wheeling in WA state, not ironically on an obstacle aptly named "tip-over challenge". I also love trucks, and I've driven one almost exclusively for the last 20 years. A pile of Toyota's, and one F-150.

As much as I would LOVE to have another Jeep (Oh, I've looked), and even better yet, a damn Jeep-truck, they are way over-the-top with the Gladiator pricing. Heck, even a well optioned (read: off-road performance options) Wrangler Unlimited is insanely priced. It's like paying for the Pony these days.

You can buy a Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road for less, so that's what I did. I just past 30k, spending countless hours in the woods, on trails, and sandy beaches. Zero issues and not a single squeak or rattle to chase in the cabin.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/033dafc252262f1142e74f14c54a7257/tenor.gif?itemid=5447006

Double like this post. :D

I've had 3 SWB 4WD Toyotas, 2 pickups (one before they badged them Tacoma) and a 4R. IIRC a 91 PU, 97 4R, 02 Taco. I'm on my second 4Runner. so that makes #4. I can say that for the money there isn't anything out there that can measure up. If you put the right tires on one you have a very good off road vehicle. They aren't rock crawlers which seems to be a thing now, but they do the outback just fine. The new ones have traction control for ice and snow if you dial it in. I bought an SR5 4R last summer for 37K. Still has the magic. F'in Chevy broke down twice on the road. I've been a Toyota buyer since 78 ( 6 total ) and they've never left me on the side of the road. I bought the Duramax to tow a trailer. It's gone. If you like spending money on maintenance and repairs buy a Duramax.

[Grey]

If it’s anything like the FJ I’m driving you can expect that to continue for the next 140k miles.

I’ve never driven around in a 13-year old (actually, 14, it’s an ‘07 built in ‘06) vehicle that has 168k on it and doesn’t rattle or squeak.

The loudest noise the truck has is some wind noise around the driver’s door at highway speed. I haven’t chased it enough to figure out if it is a weather stripping issue or just the big square mirror out there.

The fact I can HEAR wind noise inside a truck with this mileage and age blows my mind. Also bear in mind the FJ has a plastic and vinyl floor, not carpet. So I’d expect it to be even louder than it is.

How does Toyota manage to build a vehicle that doesn’t squeak or rattle? Because Ford, GM, and Chrysler have NEVER accomplished that. I’ve had rattly Fords that has 25k on them.

Wish they kept making FJ Cruisers, that was my DO WANT car until they discontinued them :*(.

[Borderland]

Wish they kept making FJ Cruisers, that was my DO WANT car until they discontinued them :*(.

I think I read they have plans to bring it back sort of, only with AWD which ain't quite the same. That's why I bought a 4R. 4WD is dying.

[Grey]

I think I read they have plans to bring it back.

OOOHHHHHHH!!!!!

[Borderland]

I went through the same debate last year (4Runner vs Wrangler). I like the 4Runner but it didn't have the backseat room the Wrangler has for passengers (or at least that is my opinion). I ordered a pretty loaded 2019 Rubicon Unlimited (3.6, 8 speed auto) and took delivery in May 2019. My 2 boys and I drove it over 7500 miles on a trip from Virginia out west (South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, etc) last June/July without a hiccup other than a crack in the windshield while crossing Nebraska in the rain. The Jeep had no issues with power at elevation (think we were over 12,000 in Colorado) and holding speed with the cruise is not an issue. This is on the stock 285/70/17 mud terrains.

I'm currently over 21000 miles and love the jeep.

48587


FWIW I also own a Tacoma (2013 TRD Sport double cab) and the wife has a 2019 Lexus GX460 so we love us some Toyota.

Love those any road road trips. Good way to see the country. Valley of the Gods in Utah. You don't want to take your Lexus in there. The road isn't that good.:D

https://i.ibb.co/Sfrm99d/P1020052.jpg

[Dan_S]

I think I read they have plans to bring it back sort of, only with AWD which ain't quite the same. That's why I bought a 4R. 4WD is dying.

😳


Do tell.

[fixer]

Hating on mall crawlers is certainly an enjoyable pastime, but in its element the Jeep still shines.



Confirmed. This is from a hardcore 4runner guy.

[rob_s]

I found this quote from the linked article to be interesting...

Last year, Jeep sold just over 40,000 of the midsize pickup trucks, putting it close to the bottom in the segment ahead of only the Honda Ridgeline (33,334 units) and GMC Canyon (32,825). At the front of the pack is the Toyota Tacoma with 248,801 sales, followed by the Chevy Colorado at 122,304, the Ford Ranger with 89,571, and the Nissan Frontier at 72,369.

so in order of most sold to least...

Toyota Tacoma: 248,801
Wrangler: 228,032
Chevy Colorado: 122,304
Ford Ranger: 89,571
Nissan Frontier: 72,369
Jeep Gladiator: ~40,000
Honda Ridgeline: 33,334 units
GMC Canyon: 32,825


Right off the lot, which of these is as capable off-road as the Jeep?

I’m asking because I literally,y don’t know.

The second question, and maybe the more telling question, is “does it matter when it comes to mass market sales?”

[JRB]

...Right off the lot, which of these is as capable off-road as the Jeep?

I’m asking because I literally,y don’t know.

The second question, and maybe the more telling question, is “does it matter when it comes to mass market sales?”

None of them are as capable. The only other new vehicle that can compete with a Rubicon stock vs stock is a 70 series triple-locked Land Cruiser which is not available in North America no matter how much money you have.

Only the Rubicon comes with front, rear, and center diff locks and only the Rubicon comes with a live front axle. The non-Rubicon Wranglers still have a center diff lock and live front axle, though the axles are smaller and weaker and I can't in good conscience recommend anything but a Rubicon.

Colorado/Canyon have an interesting small diesel option but the jury's out on whether it'll hold up to the long haul. It also sucks because the diesel isn't available with a manual trans or in a more utilitarian trim level - to get the diesel you need to get all the farkles, bells, whistles, and gizmos which adds considerable cost.
There's also been some reports of frame durability problems with them that has me concerned, so I'd be reluctant to buy one if I wanted to do lots of off roading or tow a trailer.

Avoid the Ranger, lots of weird little issues according to people I know wrenching for the blue oval. If you're a Ford family, get an F150 preferably with the 5.0L Coyote and enjoy one of Ford's finest engines ever and significant long term reliability, or buy an Ecoboost for the ~2-3mpg improvement in trade for somewhat less reliability. Buy a 4wd even if you don't need it because the resale on 2wd F150's sucks.

The Ridgeline is a truck in name only. If you want a crossover with a pickup bed, it works, and is generally reliable but don't expect truck levels of durability or towing.

The Frontier is a sleeper in this segment but the Ghosn-era cost cuts hurt some weird things in Nissan's lineup. If you get a more spartan configuration you should be fine, as most of the issues I have heard about in Nissans have to do with CVT's in non-trucks and in electrical/infotainment related problems across the line. Manual trans 4wd with minimal options should be pretty good to go. Basically, I'd expect it to be about as reliable as the Wrangler overall but as capable as the Tacoma off-road. Depending on final out the door price that might be well worth the cost savings over the Tacoma to a given buyer.

Bottom line, the truck to have in that segment is the Tacoma, with the singular exception of the Wrangler Rubicon if you need/want that additional ~25-30% (totally spitballing) more offroad capability in bone stock form, and are willing to take a small hit in gas mileage and possibly significant hit in reliability to get it.

Personally, I'd buy a Tacoma 4x4 quad cab with a 6spd manual if I had to pick from that list.

[BehindBlueI's]

The second question, and maybe the more telling question, is “does it matter when it comes to mass market sales?”

That's kind of a two part question.

1) Does ACTUAL capability matter: No.

2) Does the MARKETING capability matter: Absolutely.

The number of people who'll actually take a $55k+ new vehicle through anything more challenging then a mud puddle or over anything harsher than a speed bump are a tiny tiny percentage of buyers. The number of people who like to think of themselves as the adventurous sort who absolutely COULD do that sort of thing are a significant percentage. As long as you've got a flagship that's capable enough for the magazines and blogs, you're golden. Especially if you sell cheaper versions that aren't as capable but share the aura. Which is why we have 4 cylinder Camaros as well.

[rob_s]

That's kind of a two part question.

1) Does ACTUAL capability matter: No.

2) Does the MARKETING capability matter: Absolutely.

The number of people who'll actually take a $55k+ new vehicle through anything more challenging then a mud puddle or over anything harsher than a speed bump are a tiny tiny percentage of buyers. The number of people who like to think of themselves as the adventurous sort who absolutely COULD do that sort of thing are a significant percentage. As long as you've got a flagship that's capable enough for the magazines and blogs, you're golden. Especially if you sell cheaper versions that aren't as capable but share the aura. Which is why we have 4 cylinder Camaros as well.

Sounds a lot like guns.

And Raptors.

And sports cars...

So the thing is, even if someone is just a poser (or even maybe moreso if they are a poser), I’d imagine they’d still want “the best”. Like the guy that just has to have the Hodge ar with custom barrel, ya know?

[BehindBlueI's]

Sounds a lot like guns.

And Raptors.

And sports cars...

So the thing is, even if someone is just a poser (or even maybe moreso if they are a poser), I’d imagine they’d still want “the best”. Like the guy that just has to have the Hodge ar with custom barrel, ya know?

6 cylinder Mustangs and Camaros handily outsell V8s every year. This was true even with those motors were dogs, although the V6s of today are pretty capable in their own right and there's actually V6 track editions for the lighter front end, but that's ranging a bit afar.

The best is expensive and you can pose with the lesser version and still get some of that reflected coolness. Some people legitimately don't care about the performance as much as the image. The best also changes quite often. If you want the fastest sports car you're going to be buying and selling pretty often. I've got a Camaro SS/RS. The new ones are faster, but they are also ugly. From a pure performance standpoint they are better. For me, for pride of ownership, they aren't. Maybe I'm posing. I lack a mullet and gold chains, but you never know. I have a hell of a lot of fun posing, though, especially when I get to pass semis on a 2-lane.

[Nephrology]

The number of people who like to think of themselves as the adventurous sort who absolutely COULD do that sort of thing are a significant percentage. As long as you've got a flagship that's capable enough for the magazines and blogs, you're golden. Especially if you sell cheaper versions that aren't as capable but share the aura. Which is why we have 4 cylinder Camaros as well.

It's also probably fair to say that this same segment is really cross-shopping against economy commuter crossovers and sedans, as most of these buyers are just looking for a daily driver that is cool/fits their image/etc and may not even understand why you'd get a v8 over the 4cyl Camaro. A 4 cylinder Camaro still gets more horsepower (and most importantly, looks cooler) than a 2.5L Camry, and a Chevy Tahoe is beefier (and looks cooler) than a Honda Odyssey, even if the more boring cars of each pair are better suited for commuting/family hauling, respectively.

[mmc45414]

so in order of most sold to least...

Toyota Tacoma: 248,801
Wrangler: 228,032
Chevy Colorado: 122,304
Ford Ranger: 89,571
Nissan Frontier: 72,369
Jeep Gladiator: ~40,000
Honda Ridgeline: 33,334 units
GMC Canyon: 32,825


Obviously the Colorado and Canyon are the same thing and the numbers should be combined, and I look at the Gladiator as a Wrangler variant. And the Ranger is just reentering the market. Not that any of that means anything, other than IMO that ranking is a little goofy.

Am surprised the Ridgeline is that low, not so much higher than the Element when they quit them.

[mmc45414]

6 cylinder Mustangs and Camaros handily outsell V8s every year. This was true even with those motors were dogs, although the V6s of today are pretty capable in their own right and there's actually V6 track editions for the lighter front end, but that's ranging a bit afar.
I rented one of the Camaros once and couldn't believe how fast it was. After I turned it back in I went and looked it up and IIRC the V6 car might have squeaked into the 13s!


The new ones are faster, but they are also ugly. From a pure performance standpoint they are better.
I think part of the issue is that things are so fast that faster doesn't really matter. Another problem is that they keep getting more expensive. The C8 is probably the first things that probably justifies the purchase price. This, IMO, is just goofy:
48639
Really cool, but goofy..

[Jakus]

so in order of most sold to least...

Toyota Tacoma: 248,801
Wrangler: 228,032
Chevy Colorado: 122,304
Ford Ranger: 89,571
Nissan Frontier: 72,369
Jeep Gladiator: ~40,000
Honda Ridgeline: 33,334 units
GMC Canyon: 32,825



One thing to point out that the article doesn’t mention is that the Gladiator didn’t have a full year of sales. They didn’t start shipping until May or June. That number will grow for 2020. I suspect the fact that dealers are discounting them decently now just means they can’t get away with charging people early adopter premiums anymore.

Here’s a good video that talks about total sales for trucks broken down by full size and mid size.


https://youtu.be/82yOdqycOlM

[Nephrology]

I rented one of the Camaros once and couldn't believe how fast it was. After I turned it back in I went and looked it up and IIRC the V6 car might have squeaked into the 13s!


I think part of the issue is that things are so fast that faster doesn't really matter. Another problem is that they keep getting more expensive. The C8 is probably the first things that probably justifies the purchase price. This, IMO, is just goofy:
48639
Really cool, but goofy..

Regular mustang GT is already a ton of car.

[deputyG23]

I had a 2004 TJ Rubicon with the 5-speed manual transmission (they switched to the 6-speed in 2005) that I traded in for a 2011 Scion xB a few months before my son was born.

Shut up. I know I’m stupid. On the plus side, I can haul over 300 board feet of 8’ dimensional lumber completely inside the Scion with all the doors and windows closed. Can’t do that with a Jeep. :)

No, you are most likely being sensible. I drive an '08 Town and Country minivan that has served as a light duty truck on numerous occasions from hauling stuff to college to construction waste from my kitchen and bathroom demos. Not to mention climate controlled goodness for hauling expensive stringed instruments to gigs.

[farscott]

Quoted for fucking emphasis.

My ex girlfriend had a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee that gave me years of nightmares trying to fix its electrical issues. My very capable brother and dad who are both great mechanics were similarly flummoxed. Once the car alarm went off and the windows rolled down JUST DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD. A few months ago I took a road trip with a friend and her family in a very nicely appointed 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Guess what happened on the road trip? Dead battery twice and weird electrical issues with the windows.

I would rather drive a goddamn Big Wheel.

There are two classic causes for those issues: 1) water entry into the wire harnesses (especially where the door harnesses connect to the body harness near the door hinges and 2) wires in the body harness being crushed in the door sill. The former is a design issue; the latter is FCA is not willing to pay for wiring shields that spread point forces instead of transmitting them into the harness, causing damaged insulation and intermittent opens and closures that are interpreted as valid user commands.

[Nephrology]

No, you are most likely being sensible. I drive an '08 Town and Country minivan that has served as a light duty truck on numerous occasions from hauling stuff to college to construction waste from my kitchen and bathroom demos. Not to mention climate controlled goodness for hauling expensive stringed instruments to gigs.

Minivans are the most under-rated utility vehicles out there. If you have a reasonably sized family they are a no brainer, and once the kids grow up the van can be used as an awesome beater-hauler.

Hell, even without the kids, if you're looking for a beater vehicle to haul basically anything that doesn't require a trailer hitch, used Toyota Siennas can be found for dirt cheap and used for this purpose.

[mtnbkr]

Minivans are the most under-rated utility vehicles out there. If you have a reasonably sized family they are a no brainer, and once the kids grow up the van can be used as an awesome beater-hauler.

Hell, even without the kids, if you're looking for a beater vehicle to haul basically anything that doesn't require a trailer hitch, used Toyota Siennas can be found for dirt cheap and used for this purpose.

Yup. We've seriously considered another van to replace our Odyssey even though the kids are well out of car seats now (it was needed when two car seats would eat up the entire back seat of our Camry). The Odyssey has plenty of pep and handles better than other vehicles of its size. I'm sure the Sienna and other similar vans compare favorably.

Chris

[Grey]

Minivans are the most under-rated utility vehicles out there. If you have a reasonably sized family they are a no brainer, and once the kids grow up the van can be used as an awesome beater-hauler.

Hell, even without the kids, if you're looking for a beater vehicle to haul basically anything that doesn't require a trailer hitch, used Toyota Siennas can be found for dirt cheap and used for this purpose.No no and no. Minivan is never the answer!!!!!!!

If you cant tell Im trying to justify not getting a minivan for the wife when her car needs replacing. She totallg needs a F150 or Tundra...

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

No no and no. Minivan is never the answer!!!!!!!

If you cant tell Im trying to justify not getting a minivan for the wife when her car needs replacing. She totallg needs a F150 or Tundra...

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

This is my girlfriend's attitude and while I understand it - I'd love a Tundra or an F150 - I also love having money.

[Doc_Glock]

Yup. We've seriously considered another van to replace our Odyssey even though the kids are well out of car seats now (it was needed when two car seats would eat up the entire back seat of our Camry). The Odyssey has plenty of pep and handles better than other vehicles of its size. I'm sure the Sienna and other similar vans compare favorably.

Chris


Minivans are the most under-rated utility vehicles out there. If you have a reasonably sized family they are a no brainer, and once the kids grow up the van can be used as an awesome beater-hauler.

Hell, even without the kids, if you're looking for a beater vehicle to haul basically anything that doesn't require a trailer hitch, used Toyota Siennas can be found for dirt cheap and used for this purpose.


All of the above is true. The minivan is simply the best vehicle no one wants to own for the general utility purposes we use cars for. I will always have one.

[BehindBlueI's]

I rented one of the Camaros once and couldn't believe how fast it was. After I turned it back in I went and looked it up and IIRC the V6 car might have squeaked into the 13s!

The current last generation V6 Camaro was faster than the pre-Coyote V8 Mustang, IIRC. They are quite capable cars. My SS/RS is stupid fast. It's absolutely nuts how fast it can accelerate. I'm not a burn-out guy, but do love a hard charge down an entrance ramp or a 'how quick can I get back into my lane' 2-lane passing funs. My fun factor is pretty solidly in the rolling start to 80mph range. I've had it up to 120 in a controlled environment and it would have done more easily if I'd had more controlled environment. :D

Top speed doesn't really fun me out, though. I've done 135 in Crown Vics, so meh, not exactly a thrill and the instances of being able to use top speed without endangering lives and driving status is very minimal to me.

Did I ever tell you about the time my buddy snuck on to the Indy 500 track for a quick lap? The supposedly empty Indy 500 track? The supposedly empty Indy 500 track that had a tour bus on it? No? Ah, well, it never happened if that's what you're asking.

[Mntneer357]

Regular mustang GT is already a ton of car.

What's *really* sad about that particular vehicle isn't the outlandish asking price. It's the fact that it comes with a knob for a transmission selector (or as they call it, the "TREMEC® 7-Speed Dual Clutch") and not a stick. All that window dressing and no manual transmission? What kind of world are we living in???

To the actual topic, I'm firmly Team Toyota. 2012 Tacoma 4x4 has worked extremely well for me since I brought it home. Before that, there was a '02 4Runner SR5. Same amazing experience. Yes, I'm biased but my experiences back up my feelings. I'm not saying it's *THE* answer, I'm just saying it's the answer for me.

[Borderland]

I used to work with a guy who liked to punish his off road vehicle. He bought an old 4WD Toyota pickup with a solid front axle and started building his idea of an off road vehicle. He bought parts as he could afford them and spent his weekends either flogging his pickup or installing parts. That Toyota was beat to shit. I think he said it had 300K on it when he bought it.

I would say that 90% of the people that buy things like Gladiators and TRD Tacomas aren't going to flog them. They'll spend 90% of their time on the pavement. Why would anyone spend 40K just to hammer a vehicle? The people that you see with these vehicles without any dents or scratches aren't driving them off road and I can't blame them. There are some decent 4WD vehicles out there for under 10K. A good used 20 yo Toyota PU can be had for 5-6K. If you want to build on that you can take it to an off road shop and have them install the parts you want. For 15K you can build right up to a TRD or Gladiator on your own schedule. There's a guy near me that does off road builds and he's 2 months out on any new work. I just had him put some steps on my 4R.

[RoyGBiv]

What's *really* sad about that particular vehicle isn't the outlandish asking price. It's the fact that it comes with a knob for a transmission selector (or as they call it, the "TREMEC® 7-Speed Dual Clutch") and not a stick.
I drove a rental Escape with the selector dial a few weeks ago. Hated it!
Not only do you have to take your eyes off the windshield to go looking for it but then you have to know what direction and how many clicks to turn it.

I can get used to a lot of that driver assist tech, but, hell no on the dial shift.

[Nephrology]

I drove a rental Escape with the selector dial a few weeks ago. Hated it!
Not only do you have to take your eyes off the windshield to go looking for it but then you have to know what direction and how many clicks to turn it.

I can get used to a lot of that driver assist tech, but, hell no on the dial shift.

Amen. Will never buy a vehicle with one. Dumbest fucking idea since the CVT.

[RevolverRob]

There is a reason why small cars and rally cars are more fun than just about everything else. You can reach the limits of such a vehicle in relatively limited controlled conditions.

I do love asphalt, but still, I’m a dirt guy at heart.

[psalms144.1]

We've had minvans in our household since 1998, our "newest" is a 2006 Toyota Previa. Nothing on the road beats the versatility of the minvan. We've loaded four kids and a 130 pound dog into them for long-distance (12 hours driving plus in a day) trips, with no issues. Don't need to build a ramp for the dog to get in and out of the side doors. My aging (now deceased) Mom had no issues getting in and out, unlike most/all SUVs with much smaller capacity.

I only wish there was a decent AWD minivan on the market. After 7 years of snowy NY winters, now into our first icy IN winter, the FWD on the van is just slippery enough that I'm thinking I need something AWD as a replacement for my wife's soon-to-be commuter car for her soon-to-be job.

Back on topic, I lubs me some Jeep. I had several CJs back in the day, and loved every one of them. Even had a Wrangler that was a hoot and a half to drive, but was a bitch MFer on maintenance. My bestest best friend just bought a new 4-door Wrangler, after I did everything in my power to talk him out of one, but he's a lot more car-savvy and can do a lot of the maintenance I expect he'll encounter himself. If someone wanted to give me a current production Wrangler/Gladiator/whatever, I'd take it, but I wouldn't buy one for any amount of money (especially since they don't even make 1/2 door soft top models anymore - COMMUNISTS!).

[OlongJohnson]

I would totally rock a minivan if they were tall enough to fit a dirt bike inside.

[mtnbkr]

I would totally rock a minivan if they were tall enough to fit a dirt bike inside.

Sounds like you need a Sprinter...

Chris

[Doc_Glock]

I only wish there was a decent AWD minivan on the market. After 7 years of snowy NY winters, now into our first icy IN winter, the FWD on the van is just slippery enough that I'm thinking I need something AWD as a replacement for my wife's soon-to-be commuter car for her soon-to-be job.

Toyota makes an AWD Sienna.

I think Bill Nesbitt rocks one?

[TQP]

None of them are as capable. The only other new vehicle that can compete with a Rubicon stock vs stock is a 70 series triple-locked Land Cruiser which is not available in North America no matter how much money you have.

(Snip)

The Frontier is a sleeper in this segment but the Ghosn-era cost cuts hurt some weird things in Nissan's lineup. If you get a more spartan configuration you should be fine, as most of the issues I have heard about in Nissans have to do with CVT's in non-trucks and in electrical/infotainment related problems across the line. Manual trans 4wd with minimal options should be pretty good to go. Basically, I'd expect it to be about as reliable as the Wrangler overall but as capable as the Tacoma off-road. Depending on final out the door price that might be well worth the cost savings over the Tacoma to a given buyer.



I've been driving Nissans since they were Datsuns, I think. My 85 sentra went 180k, my 88 pathfinder and 01 xterra ( wish they still made those) went over 150 and were still in good shape when I sold them. My first and last new vehicle ever is my current 12 frontier. I looked at the tacos, but was too cheap to pay what they wanted for them. One thing you'll run into is a lack of aftermarket/upgrade parts. I've found 1 place that makes a replacement rear bumper, for example.

[TQP]

All of the above is true. The minivan is simply the best vehicle no one wants to own for the general utility purposes we use cars for. I will always have one.

Which is why I can't understand why the Element went away. It was like a 'cool' minivan. My wife LOVED hers. She cried when it got totalled, and when we went looking for something similar, there just isn't. She ended up in an Outback.

[OlongJohnson]

Sounds like you need a Sprinter...

Chris

Have you seen my posts and the corroborating posts by others in the Sprinter thread?

[mtnbkr]

Have you seen my posts and the corroborating posts by others in the Sprinter thread?

No. I remembered the thread, but not your contribution. I was mainly being a smartass. :)

Chris

[mmc45414]

The minivan is simply the best vehicle no one wants to own for the general utility purposes we use cars for.
I had a Chevy Astro as a company car, and ultimately ended up buying it. It towed my boat, it hauled my track bike, it had a good stereo and got decent mileage and had over 500mi range.

I hated it... :cool:

[HeavyDuty]

The current last generation V6 Camaro was faster than the pre-Coyote V8 Mustang, IIRC. They are quite capable cars. My SS/RS is stupid fast. It's absolutely nuts how fast it can accelerate. I'm not a burn-out guy, but do love a hard charge down an entrance ramp or a 'how quick can I get back into my lane' 2-lane passing funs. My fun factor is pretty solidly in the rolling start to 80mph range. I've had it up to 120 in a controlled environment and it would have done more easily if I'd had more controlled environment. :D

Top speed doesn't really fun me out, though. I've done 135 in Crown Vics, so meh, not exactly a thrill and the instances of being able to use top speed without endangering lives and driving status is very minimal to me.

Did I ever tell you about the time my buddy snuck on to the Indy 500 track for a quick lap? The supposedly empty Indy 500 track? The supposedly empty Indy 500 track that had a tour bus on it? No? Ah, well, it never happened if that's what you're asking.


There is a reason why small cars and rally cars are more fun than just about everything else. You can reach the limits of such a vehicle in relatively limited controlled conditions.

I do love asphalt, but still, I’m a dirt guy at heart.

I love my NC series Miata because I can get myself into an assload of trouble without even breaking urban speed limits. Even rowing through the box is fun...

[mmc45414]

I've done 135 in Crown Vics
Did I ever tell you about the time my buddy snuck on to the Indy 500 track for a quick lap?
Ah, well, it never happened if that's what you're asking.
Hmmmmmmm

[mmc45414]

Regular mustang GT is already a ton of car.
I know, right?
I think the horsepower escalation reached the point of diminishing return a long time ago. After putting 105k on my turbo Focus I might even consider the 2.3EB in the Mustang. Probably plenty of power and nice delivery, and a few grand cheaper. Maybe troll for a used one when the Focus is done.

[OlongJohnson]

The problem is that weight and size go right along with it.

Also, driver aids. With all the electronic "helpers" active, those 400-500 hp cars are intermittently turned into 250 hp (or less) cars just when needed to protect someone from being a complete ninny and having a really bad day. Most of the time.

Also, weight. The weight and size keep going up along with the HP. Mazda and Porsche seeming to be the only notable exceptions.

People don't actually drive significantly faster now than they did in the '80s, because we've been operating at the limit of the human performance comfort zone since the 55 started to be lifted. That hasn't changed.

[Doc_Glock]

I had a Chevy Astro as a company car, and ultimately ended up buying it. It towed my boat, it hauled my track bike, it had a good stereo and got decent mileage and had over 500mi range.

I hated it... :cool:


Astros are under rated. A buddy of mine had one for a company car. He also had a waterski boat (Malibu?). Four of us towed the boat from Illinois to Florida one winter over Christmas break for some skiing, and it didn't bat an eye.

[Doc_Glock]

The problem is that weight and size go right along with it.

Ain't that the truth. We got a Highlander for the wife. It's great. For her. Quiet, reliable, BORING, and after driving it, I realized I mainly hate it because it is just too damn heavy and therefore sluggish in its manners (the lack of fun seems to be a general Toyota characteristic as well). Give me the Odyssey any day.

[BN]

Toyota makes an AWD Sienna.

I think Bill Nesbitt rocks one?

I'm on my second one. I bought a used 2005 AWD Sienna and drove it 2 or 3 years and then traded it in on a new 2014 AWD Sienna. I need AWD or 4WD in the winter where I live. Mine just turned 90,000 and it still runs like new. I really like the sliding side doors over regular doors. The other day I was thinking, if I had to replace this vehicle, I would just get another Toyota AWD Sienna. :)

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Astros are great little work trucks...when I used to do contract work for a big telecom company they were highly desirable.



But you know, there's one thing I note in this thread that I always roll my eyes at whenever I see it: there's always a subset of people who, when you start talking Jeeps/HD trucks/sports cars/luxury vehicles/whatever...there's always people who insist that nobody needs anything but a beige Toyota minivan.


I happen to own a beige toyota myself (granted, a 4runner, which usually makes it acceptable to the Jeep guys and the beige toyota guys) so I'm not opposed to this practical approach per se. But holy cow, I can't understand why some people feel the need to insist that everyone who wants a lifted jeep would be so much better served by something they don't want, and that doesn't give them the capabilities in which they're interested.


To me this is exactly the equivalent of an AR thread on a different forum turning into a bunch of guys who can't understand why you aren't just buying a Mossberg MVP. Look at these poser losers with their $5000 tactical abortions from Bravo something something with ten pounds of rails and an optic from Smith Benson or someone I've never heard of...I can do everything they can do with my budget bolt gun and this Bushnell 3-9.


Not saying everybody who advocates for minivans fits in that category, but I just can't ever understand the whole "you don't NEED that jeep" attitude. No kidding, I don't need my motorcycles or guitars either. I have them because I like them and I don't want to replace them with something someone else wants to argue is just as good. For some reason I see this attitude all the time in vehicle threads and elsewhere I've had people go on extended rants about how I don't need body on frame for what I do and so on and so on...and when I say "but the minimum I tow is 5000 pounds" they either start telling me how that's some crazy exception and basically nobody does that, or else they make arcane arguments about how there's a couple of unibody vehicles rated for 5000 pounds and I could just do XYZ and then it would be enough if I was willing to just also remove ABC and so on.


Like okay, I get it, you find something else more practical for you and you're mostly interested in practicality and you don't value what I value. But why am I supposed to buy stuff I don't want instead of stuff I do?

The concerns about Jeep reliability I totally get...I would also have those concerns. The pricing is out of my league, too. And I also happen to think angry eye headlights are stupid, in fact. But the argument against toys for anybody that can afford them, I definitely do not get. I totally expect to see the same thing when the Bronco hits. You don't need that! Just get a Toyota Venza! But...why?

Granted, here we have a LOT of back country and jeeps are not notably owned by jerks. More often skiers, campers, and surfers, none of whom I find particularly offensive.

[Nephrology]

Like okay, I get it, you find something else more practical for you and you're mostly interested in practicality and you don't value what I value. But why am I supposed to buy stuff I don't want instead of stuff I do?

Because you have to share the road, the increase in the number of giant vehicles with poor visibility on the road has directly coincided with a steep rise in auto-pedestrian motor vehicle fatalities. Also means the vehicle most likely to rear-end me is now an average 1000lbs heavier than 15 years ago, obstructs my view of the road, and is often double parked by someone who has no idea how to drive the thing (but thinks they look cool in them).


The pricing is out of my league, too.

Another big piece of it. If you're talking within the boundaries of fiscally responsible spending habits, it is a small segment of people can truly afford to spend $75k on a depreciating asset.



Granted, here we have a LOT of back country and jeeps are not notably owned by jerks. More often skiers, campers, and surfers, none of whom I find particularly offensive.

For me this is the clincher. I never really felt this strongly until I moved to Denver and realized that mall crawlers are a de rigeur fashion accessory for 50% of the people that moved here.

To spare you a very long rant about why I want to leave this place ASAP, the people (extremely broad brush alert) in this city are largely young millennials (like me) who like crossfit, skiing, instagram and weed (not like me). Like Portland and Austin, this has become a "lifestyle destination" for a segment of the American population that I have absolutely nothing in common with. They moved here to enjoy the beautiful outdoors and in doing so have ruined said beautiful outdoors and clogged up the mountain highways. In a fashion consistent with young people chasing their own hedonistic social media fever dream, the behavior I have seen from the general public both on and off the roads is utterly appalling, selfish and often reckless.

So, to me, when I see another ~20s-30s white guy with a beard, ray bans, and baseball hat double parking his lifted and tinted Ram 2500 at the grocery store, I am reminded of all the douchebag drunk bachelors I've seen put in soft restraints in the ED because they got too hammered at Punch Bowl Social to behave like an adult in a civilized society. It reminds me of basically all of the things I miss about the Midwest, and how utterly absent they are out here, and why I feel absolutely zero fondness for this place and cannot wait to leave.

Whew, that felt good to get off my chest.

[OlongJohnson]

But you know, there's one thing I note in this thread that I always roll my eyes at whenever I see it: there's always a subset of people who, when you start talking Jeeps/HD trucks/sports cars/luxury vehicles/whatever...there's always people who insist that nobody needs anything but a beige Toyota minivan.

Pedantic know-it-all blowhard-fudd types infect every area of life. Learn what you can (if anything) from them and then ignore them as you roll on.

Men like stuff. Passion of the ______________ is a thing.

Acquiring a revolver at below market price because someone decided he needs another guitar more works for me. Even though I don't need it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Because you have to share the road, the increase in the number of giant vehicles with poor visibility on the road has directly coincided with a steep rise in auto-pedestrian motor vehicle fatalities.

Which is another reason I like trucks. If there's an arms race, I want to be winning.

And, for what it's worth, I see out of my truck way better than my Camaro. Other than a buttoned up M60 there's nothing I've driven with worse blind spots.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Which is another reason I like trucks. If there's an arms race, I want to be winning.

And, for what it's worth, I see out of my truck way better than my Camaro. Other than a buttoned up M60 there's nothing I've driven with worse blind spots.

Yeah, I was going to say that sounds like a great argument for owning a big heavy truck. But it does make me appreciate the people who voluntarily limit their threat potential to me a little more.

[Darth_Uno]

...I am reminded of all the douchebag drunk bachelors I've seen put in soft restraints in the ED because they got too hammered at Punch Bowl Social to behave like an adult in a civilized society
Stealing this and filing it away in my Pithy Witticisms for Young Men collection.

[OlongJohnson]

Which is another reason I like trucks. If there's an arms race, I want to be winning.


Yeah, I was going to say that sounds like a great argument for owning a big heavy truck. But it does make me appreciate the people who voluntarily limit their threat potential to me a little more.

I drive a 155" WB GMC 3500 van because it carries motorcycles well.

[Darth_Uno]

Which is another reason I like trucks. If there's an arms race, I want to be winning.

I had a lady hit me straight on my front passenger wheel. Silverado needed a new wheel and bumper (bumper was just cosmetic) while her little car looked like one of those exploded diagrams on Brownells. I get that it was designed to do that and thankfully nobody was hurt, but I'll keep the truck.

[Jakus]

Because you have to share the road, the increase in the number of giant vehicles with poor visibility on the road has directly coincided with a steep rise in auto-pedestrian motor vehicle fatalities. Also means the vehicle most likely to rear-end me is now an average 1000lbs heavier than 15 years ago, obstructs my view of the road, and is often double parked by someone who has no idea how to drive the thing (but thinks they look cool in them).



Another big piece of it. If you're talking within the boundaries of fiscally responsible spending habits, it is a small segment of people can truly afford to spend $75k on a depreciating asset.



For me this is the clincher. I never really felt this strongly until I moved to Denver and realized that mall crawlers are a de rigeur fashion accessory for 50% of the people that moved here.

To spare you a very long rant about why I want to leave this place ASAP, the people (extremely broad brush alert) in this city are largely young millennials (like me) who like crossfit, skiing, instagram and weed (not like me). Like Portland and Austin, this has become a "lifestyle destination" for a segment of the American population that I have absolutely nothing in common with. They moved here to enjoy the beautiful outdoors and in doing so have ruined said beautiful outdoors and clogged up the mountain highways. In a fashion consistent with young people chasing their own hedonistic social media fever dream, the behavior I have seen from the general public both on and off the roads is utterly appalling, selfish and often reckless.

So, to me, when I see another ~20s-30s white guy with a beard, ray bans, and baseball hat double parking his lifted and tinted Ram 2500 at the grocery store, I am reminded of all the douchebag drunk bachelors I've seen put in soft restraints in the ED because they got too hammered at Punch Bowl Social to behave like an adult in a civilized society. It reminds me of basically all of the things I miss about the Midwest, and how utterly absent they are out here, and why I feel absolutely zero fondness for this place and cannot wait to leave.

Whew, that felt good to get off my chest.

I can whole heartedly agree with your assessment that getting out of a metro area is certainly good for ones health and soul.

Less people means less jerks. I hate to break it to you but the percentage of big lifted vehicles on the road will likely increase the further from a metro area you get. You will still see 20 something kids in loud Ram 2500s, and you may also see more 70 somethings with bifocal prescriptions that are 10 years out of date driving Ram 3500s with snow plows on them.

Just remember steer into the skid, and life is too short to drink shitty whiskey. Oh and maybe take a regular break from the metro every now and again until you can get the hell out of there.

[RevolverRob]

My wife was really anti-truck. Emphasis on was. She drove the FJ Cruiser to the grocery store two weeks ago and came home and said, “That thing is smooth. Also only one person tried to run into me and then I honked and they freaked out and realized I was going to run them over. I kinda like it.”

Steel bumpers are coming for me. So the next time some asshole parks his shitty jalopy Buick blocking my driveway, I can move that pile of shit out of the way, without scratching my truck.

[OlongJohnson]

Car skates. Just push him out in the middle of the street and leave him there as you drive away. Bonus points if you can turn him sideways to block both lanes, stuck between parked cars and unable to extricate himself. The tow truck operator will have fun with that.

[UNM1136]

Car skates. Just push him out in the middle of the street and leave him there as you drive away. Bonus points if you can turn him sideways to block both lanes, stuck between parked cars and unable to extricate himself. The tow truck operator will have fun with that.

Having called tow trucks on all manner if wrecks/crime scenes/whatever, if you get a driver with more than two years experoence, the things those guys can do are magical. Picking up a really screwed up vehicle, and then placing it down within inches of where you want it.

pat

[JRB]

Ain't no thread drift like P-F thread drift!
Start with Wranglers, end up going through the merits of minivans, poached laps at Indy, and the frustrating societal problems of big cities. I love you all. Seriously. Being able to enjoy an hour or three a day of P-F is significantly helping me stay sane out here.


Regular mustang GT is already a ton of car.

Yes, it is. But there's always an opportunity to enjoy more car. Driving a properly sorted 1000whp twin turbo Mustang or supercharged Corvette while blaring good music with a pretty girl in the passenger seat is about as close as I've come to nirvana in this mortal coil.


Minivans are the most under-rated utility vehicles out there. If you have a reasonably sized family they are a no brainer, and once the kids grow up the van can be used as an awesome beater-hauler.

Hell, even without the kids, if you're looking for a beater vehicle to haul basically anything that doesn't require a trailer hitch, used Toyota Siennas can be found for dirt cheap and used for this purpose.

And Siennas in particular refuse to die. If you need to move a family around and have $4k, there's absolutely no competition.


What's *really* sad about that particular vehicle isn't the outlandish asking price. It's the fact that it comes with a knob for a transmission selector (or as they call it, the "TREMEC® 7-Speed Dual Clutch") and not a stick. All that window dressing and no manual transmission? What kind of world are we living in???...

I fucking hate the knob - a shifter is what's really needed. But the dual clutch auto isn't as bad as you'd think. Honestly as street driven cars start getting north of 700whp a stick can go from being 'fun sporty' to 'scary sporty' real fast.
I distinctly remember a customer's 2013 Shelby GT500 - it was an actual Shelby delivered vehicle, not just the 'regular' GT500 off the lot. The customer checked all the blocks and it came to us with a Kenne Bell 4.0L twinscrew supercharger on it. It baselined at 740whp, when it left after the pullies and headers and a tune, it was making 960whp and 800-something ft-lbs. 6 spd Manual. That car absolutely *DEMANDED* respectful and accurate application of the gas pedal. Unlike the 1400+whp twin turbo setups, where a sharp blip into the throttle didn't immediately try to murder you - that car could end up totally sideways as fast as you could stomp your foot.

An auto or dual clutch trans would have been a lot more enjoyable, as then you could keep both hands on the wheel ALL the time and you could spend that much more mental brainspace allocated to reading and driving the car.

That particular customer called us about 45mins after he picked it up, and he was parked in a parking lot calming himself down after scaring the hell out of himself.

I'm extrapolating my experience here from older stupid-fast Mustangs here, but I honestly kind of agree with making the GT500 an auto-only game for that reason. Kind of.


I know, right?
I think the horsepower escalation reached the point of diminishing return a long time ago. After putting 105k on my turbo Focus I might even consider the 2.3EB in the Mustang. Probably plenty of power and nice delivery, and a few grand cheaper. Maybe troll for a used one when the Focus is done.

We did plenty of Focii and several EB S550 Mustangs at the shop, but we also saw a lot of headbolt/headgasket related failures. Ford mostly addressed those issues (mostly) with the 2.3 EB they put in the Focus RS, but it's a real weakness that can induce scary-early failures even in 100% stock vehicles.
Also, mid grade minimum for the 2.3L EB, I don't give a fuck what the owners manual says about being able to run 86/87 octane. Whatever knock correction strategy the PCM is employing it is not fast enough, and I've pulled a lot of fried spark plugs out of low mile 2.3L EB Mustangs that had owners putting regular in the tank.
Personally I would strongly recommend 91 octane or higher for any of the 2.3L EB Fords.

If you're willing to do a set of ARP headstuds, though, that more or less bulletproofs the engine for anything you can do on the stock turbo. With basic breathing mods and a tune for 91+ octane you can get pretty much even with the stock 5.0L V8's HP and Tq but you'll see 30mpg on the highway, which is pretty fuckin' cool.

[mmc45414]

Ain't no thread drift like P-F thread drift!
Here is another pointless picture of my car in the snow on a business trip this morning:
48668


We did plenty of Focii and several EB S550 Mustangs at the shop, … Also, mid grade minimum for the 2.3L EB, I don't give a fuck what the owners manual says about being able to run 86/87 octane. Whatever knock correction strategy the PCM is employing it is not fast enough, and I've pulled a lot of fried spark plugs out of low mile 2.3L EB Mustangs that had owners putting regular in the tank.
Personally I would strongly recommend 91 octane or higher for any of the 2.3L EB Fords.
So, in the Focus (2.0EB) I used to switch around, and if I was going to smoke through a tank on the highway I might run low octane, figuring it will be gone in a few hours. Then I pretty much stuck with mid grade, but I have also gone through some plugs pretty quickly. I had NO idea that could be an issue until my late model car just died while idling on a hot day (while I was hundreds of miles from home...). Now I pretty much run 93, figuring WTH, it is going to cost $6 or so. But I hear you saying that I should run the better gas, because even if it is retarding automatically it is still mildly pre-detonating in order for the sensor to pick it up? I also run mid grade in the truck with the 3.5EB, and it seems to run better.


If you're willing to do a set of ARP headstuds, though, that more or less bulletproofs the engine for anything you can do on the stock turbo. With basic breathing mods and a tune for 91+ octane you can get pretty much even with the stock 5.0L V8's HP and Tq but you'll see 30mpg on the highway, which is pretty fuckin' cool.
Plus I am a dork that doesn't like to do what all of the other old suburban guys his age are inclined to do. Imma send you a PM at some point, the car is out of warranty and the truck is about to be out of his extended warranty. Not really worried about performance so much, but if I am committing to the better gas I might exploit it. If I can pick up some mileage too, bonus!

[Hemiram]

The Gladiator, to me, is a huge disappointment. I know a couple people who make them, so it's kind of sad.

First is the price, it's insane. I drove a $55K one, and I thought the whole time, "This thing should be about $40K, sticker, tops!" and in the low 30's out the door.
The 3.6 V6 is barely adequate for freeway driving, let alone towing. If they put the 5.7 Hemi in it, with the 8 speed auto, or even better, the 6.4/392, and wanted to sticker it at $50k+, that would be different.
It would still be too high, but with the discounts, $40K or so wouldn't be bad for the fun a 6.4 powered one would be. But if they did put the 6.4 in, they will sticker in the $60k+ range, and that's just as insane as they are now.

I know some people say, "But he 3.6 has more power than the V8's we had in the late '70's!", but those cars and trucks were a PITA to drive and the torque of a V8 helped mitigate the lack of power. There is a level of power needed to be a good driver, and the Gladiator isn't quite there, the 5.7 would be fine. I've owned in the past some agonizingly slow vehicles, and I sure don't miss them at all.

[Bigghoss]

I was considering replacing my old vehicles with something made this century but noticed something very disturbing. It's pretty hard to find a 4x4 with a manual transfer case. I've even seen trucks with manual transmissions and electric shift T-cases. WTH? Recently I had to use the 4wd on a truck at work and it didn't want to cooperate, so none of that for me. The Gladiator has a manual T-case (Or at least it has a lever. I wouldn't put it past a car company to make a fake lever that's actually just an electric switch) so if I actually were going to buy a new truck the Gladiator would be right up there. As it is I'd rather spend a lot less money buying a clapped out truck from 1990 and paying someone to make it not a pile of crap.

[OlongJohnson]

Fords with the 6.0 diesel (yeah, but they can be fixed) came with a 6MT including a crawler low. Some had manual transfer cases and hubs, too. A non-rusty one will bring some bucks, but might be worth it. I keep jonesing for one with standard cab, long bed as a personal vehicle. Like in the old days, before pickups became station wagons without weather protection for the luggage.

ETA: The 6MT apparently survived the generation changeover in 2008 and the advent of the 6.4L. I should look into how long it remained available. I bet one of those would cost less than the $40k not-Rubicon Gladiator I posted about earlier. (Although I read for about two minutes, and it's conceivable the 6.4L's problems are essentially unfixable, and therefore worse than the 6.0L's problems.)

This is almost certainly a FoMoCo photo. Using for discussion and to show how awesome it is.

48826

[Balisong]

I was considering replacing my old vehicles with something made this century but noticed something very disturbing. It's pretty hard to find a 4x4 with a manual transfer case. I've even seen trucks with manual transmissions and electric shift T-cases. WTH? Recently I had to use the 4wd on a truck at work and it didn't want to cooperate, so none of that for me. The Gladiator has a manual T-case (Or at least it has a lever. I wouldn't put it past a car company to make a fake lever that's actually just an electric switch) so if I actually were going to buy a new truck the Gladiator would be right up there. As it is I'd rather spend a lot less money buying a clapped out truck from 1990 and paying someone to make it not a pile of crap.

Aren't the Tacoma's available in 4x4 with manual transfer case?

[hufnagel]

Exciting cars don't need to be fast, and fast cars aren't necessarily exciting in a good way. There's a very fine line to pulse quickening excitement and oh shit I need a new pair of underoos and pants. The latter can get expensive on the dry cleaning bill.

[RevolverRob]

Fords with the 6.0 diesel (yeah, but they can be fixed) came with a 6MT including a crawler low. Some had manual transfer cases and hubs, too. A non-rusty one will bring some bucks, but might be worth it. I keep jonesing for one with standard cab, long bed as a personal vehicle. Like in the old days, before pickups became station wagons without weather protection for the luggage.

ETA: The 6MT apparently survived the generation changeover in 2008 and the advent of the 6.4L. I should look into how long it remained available. I bet one of those would cost less than the $40k not-Rubicon Gladiator I posted about earlier. (Although I read for about two minutes, and it's conceivable the 6.4L's problems are essentially unfixable, and therefore worse than the 6.0L's problems.)

This is almost certainly a FoMoCo photo. Using for discussion and to show how awesome it is.

48826

My dad had a 6.4 F250.

Avoid those pieces of shit like you would a two dollar hooker originating from the Ebola and AIDs ridden region of Wuhan Province.

There is a reason that today 7.3 trucks are highly sought after. Because it’s the last diesel Ford built that didn’t suck.

ETA: In fact, I’d rather take my chances with the hooker than the truck.

I’d rather have explosive diarrhea on a date with twin super models than own a 6.4 diesel Ford.

I’d walk across broken glass, barefoot, to drive a Peugeot, before I owned a 6.4 Ford.

I’d rather fly in a helicopter in bad weather with Kobe Bryant, than own a 6.4 Ford...

[OlongJohnson]

A guy I work with had a 6.0L that he'd done all the reliability mods to. It was solid. His wife just got ready for something newer after a decade or so.

Another guy I work with still rocks the 7.3, but it always smells like diesel downwind of it. He might just be lazy about replacing some seals or something.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I had a work truck with the 7.3 diesel and it was unkillable. But it stank and a friend of mine who did truck repair for the city and worked on them often said it was a very tough motor, but nasty, leaky and filthy whenever one came in.

Sure had some jam, though, despite not being very stressed.

[Bigghoss]

Aren't the Tacoma's available in 4x4 with manual transfer case?

I don't know. The last Chevy in our fleet at work has a manual transfer case, I think it's a 2016, maybe older. The damn traction control on that thing tried to get me stuck once but I would still consider getting one.

[Joe in PNG]

In PNG, I've seen some interesting things regarding bad roads, offroading, and sundry.
Heck, our main highways alone would have the average American 4wd owner whimpering (the pavement just makes the impacts from hitting the big enough to swim in potholes more damaging).

But, some general observations:

-One of the surprisingly best off road vehicles is the 2wd Toyota Hiace van. (https://www.elamotors.com.pg/product-showroom/toyota/item/8-hi-ace) I don't know how they do it, but you seen them in places you'd never expect. Ever. Filled up with double the number of approved passengers, their cargo, and a half ton of betel nuts.

-The reputation of the old 2.4l diesel Hilux is not an exaggeration

-Series 70 Landcruisers (https://www.elamotors.com.pg/product-showroom/toyota/item/34-landcruiser-70-troop-carrier).. they look so cool, but are so uncomfortable. No armrest, a seriously undersized AC unit, pretty much no turning radius, ox cart suspension, and that rear compartment pretty much guarantees carsickness on long trips.

-The old 40 Series, on the other hand... those things are awesome. Especially where the road is more of a suggestion.

I'll be honest- I've become a big fan of smooth paved roads, automatic transmissions, and all the amenities & comforts available in my motor transport these many years.

[Farswot]

Can't grok the real Dodge.

Short. Stout. Simple.

The kids dig it, and know how to drive it.

Farswot

[JRB]

Our final and most faithful race car tow rig was a bulletproofed 6.0L Ford Powerstroke dually 2wd with the 6MT. The bulletproofing with the surprisingly expensive ARP headstud kit and all the associated parts is a cab-off proposition, but once done correctly it's a damn solid option.

It replaced the 'Goldilocks' 5.9L Cummins 2wd dually mega cab we had, which rode like a HMMWV and couldn't quit shitting CD48RE auto transmissions no matter how we built it, cooled it, or babied it for trans temps.


Can't grok the real Dodge.

Short. Stout. Simple.

The kids dig it, and know how to drive it.

Farswot


Nice M37!

Back at the shop, one of our owners was into military vehicles so he had a few M37's. He ended up selling one to a customer and we stuffed an LS3 and 4L80 into it. The offset powertrain mounting and divorced transfer case in those things made that swap a real pain in the ass. It was kind of cool when it was done, but the lack of steering feel and zero return-to-center along with the factory drum brakes made it terrifying to drive and largely useless for anything but cool kid points at car shows.

On the original-spec ones, it was a never ending clusterfuck keeping them running. Parts for those carbs was a pain, keeping them from leaking was a pain, pretty much everything about that truck was 3x harder than it needed to be and the results were underwhelming at best.
But it would run poorly and leaking as long as it had fuel in the tank and oil in the engine, and with that super granny low gear it'd climb like a billy goat especially for it's size. I couldn't help but grudgingly respect their abilities, as much as I hated keeping them running.
But their penchant for leaking everything everywhere made a lot of our current military PMCS procedures seem a lot more sensible.

M880's and CUCV's though, he had a few of those too and while they got absolutely abysmal mileage you couldn't kill them, they were much easier to drive in traffic, and parts were much easier to source. Only real trouble with them was installing power steering in the M880's.

An M1009 CUCV Blazer with A/C, a bona fide overdrive trans, and a Banks turbo setup on that 6.2L is something I could definitely see myself driving.

[HeavyDuty]

Can't grok the real Dodge.

Short. Stout. Simple.

The kids dig it, and know how to drive it.

Farswot

Damn - I’ve always wanted a M-37 for a project vehicle. But, like JRB says they have a rep for being totally uncivilized.

[Farswot]

That is the attraction. I put 250K on that truck over 30 years.

That and a 3-53N Detroit, 5-sp OD, and 11:00-18's.

Newer sealing items done properly made leaks a no biggie.

Farswot

[RevolverRob]

A few months ago, I stumbled upon a company in Arizona that specializes in barn-find-esque Power Wagons. I spent at least two hours carefully combing through their online inventory. I would own an original Power Wagon - and I would drive that uncivilized bitch everywhere I could. Sprung like a buckboard wagon, but capable of driving virtually anywhere there are roads and most places where there aren't.

Like a dumbass, I forgot to bookmark the company and can't seem to find it now.

That said, I'm on the look out for a rust-free Series Land Rover. One of those with the 2.4 Hilux Diesel that Joe in PNG mentioned would be the heat. I could use it to tow the Sunbeam anywhere. Hmm...support truck for the Sunbeam at Rally Newfoundland anyone?

Who wants to co-drive and who wants to drive the support truck? :eek:

[Farswot]

https://www.rough-readydpw.com/

Farswot

[RevolverRob]

https://www.rough-readydpw.com/

Farswot

That's the place!

I mean seriously - someone look at this truck and tell me you don't want it more than you want a Jeep "Gladiator" - https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/dodge/power-wagon/2372159.html

Gladiator gets quotes, because that Power Wagon would eat the "Gladiator" for lunch.

[randyho]

Bonus points for what appears to be a bullet hole in the passenger door!

[BehindBlueI's]

http://www.rustfreeclassics.com/

Have fun.

[RevolverRob]

Here's the one for OlongJohnson to turn into a motorcycle hauler/desert camper - https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/dodge/3500-series/2353658.html

We had three different 1-ton Dodge vans with 360s/autos over the years as work vans. Excellent driving trucks, with enough power to get it, even when loaded to night capacity. Plenty of ground clearance as well.

[OlongJohnson]

Retired Penske 12-ft box truck.

[RevolverRob]

Retired Penske 12-ft box truck.

I drove a GMC 16-footer, gasoline, with the dually rear-axle from Austin to Chicago when we moved here. With cruise control and a 75 mph governor; we averaged, 17 mpg fully loaded with the cruise set at 71-72mph; I kept the rest in reserve for passing and it would do it without hesitation. I never did weigh it, but if it was under 8,000 pounds, I would be surprised.

I've actually frequently thought of buying a 16-footer and converting it to a car hauler. A 16-footer would hold the entire Sunbeam + Tool Box + Sundries. But what would I do with a 16-foot box truck when I wasn't using it to haul a car once every 10-months?

A SWB Series Land Cruiser with some kind of engine swap + trailer would be more fun and at least a semi-practical DD. Especially with power steering and A/C, the PS is basically mandatory to effect an engine swap in those things. Sure it would ride like a small dump truck, but then so does a 16-foot box truck.

[OlongJohnson]

Right, because a 16-ft box truck is medium duty.

The 12 footer is SRW, 9900 GVWR. Same overall L&W footprint and load floor height for easy loading (with the same compromise of wheel wells intruding) as a 155" WB Express/Savana, but with a massively more useful cargo area that separates the fuel storage from the people. No trailer required, all materials are protected from weather and visual recognition. Slap on a set of Bilsteins and you're golden.

[RevolverRob]

Right, because a 16-ft box truck is medium duty.

The 12 footer is SRW, 9900 GVWR. Same overall L&W footprint and load floor height for easy loading (with the same compromise of wheel wells intruding) as a 155" WB Express/Savana, but with a massively more useful cargo area that separates the fuel storage from the people. No trailer required, all materials are protected from weather and visual recognition. Slap on a set of Bilsteins and you're golden.

Yea, for bikes the 12-footer is about perfect. Alas, it's just a too short for cars. Sunbeam is about two inches shy of 13' long. So the 16-footer gives me everything...except, how the fuck do you load a car in it, easily? You don't, at least not with the standard box. You build some kind of shitty ramp that doesn't work very well or you need a loading dock every day...

Then I start down the rabbit hole of things like tilt-back boxes...and before you know it, I'm basically back to where I started...A 14' aluminum flat trailer on bags that can drop all the way to the ground for quick and easy loading. If it's a full floor trailer, I get all the utility of an extra long pick-up bed.

[OlongJohnson]

Yeah, but if you have to tow a trailer for your car, the box truck still gives you all that space to have protected tools, tires, spares, workbench, etc.

Although, once you get to that point, get a real trailer and a real truck and get on with it.

Bikes are like cats. They don't take up much space, don't cost very much (compared to cars, anyway). The first one is awesome. Then you think, hey, I should have a dual-sport so I can connect trails. Then you think, I don't want to tear up the dual sport just pounding commute miles. Pretty soon, you're that guy with all those bikes. You can be that guy and still rock the old beater van.

[RevolverRob]

Yeah, but if you have to tow a trailer for your car, the box truck still gives you all that space to have protected tools, tires, spares, workbench, etc.

Although, once you get to that point, get a real trailer and a real truck and get on with it.


Hence a K-series swap into the Sunbeam, with a bullet proof drivetrain and good suspension bits, I should be able to avoid breaking it too often at the track.

My plan is to get one of these: https://www.leroyengineering.com/grid.php - Which I can use to haul a simple tool and spares kit. I can also raise it to the ceiling of the garage when not in use, it weighs 280 pounds. I even thought of building a drop-in flat floor for it, so I can use it as a utility trailer.

For awhile, I thought I might end up living here in Chicago for, forever, and if I did, I'd have to make a 1-car garage work as the storage and workspace for the 'Beam. So, I spent some time looking at my options out there. The Leroy Engineering track trailers are about ideal for this kind of thing.

Then I wouldn't need a Series Land Rover for anything...except hood rat shit. :rolleyes:

[OlongJohnson]

They should make a version of that to haul bikes.

[Farswot]

Moores' Gulch, N of Phoenix.

[Borderland]

Moores' Gulch, N of Phoenix.

Is that an M37 Power Wagon or something later? When I was in the Navy they were still using Power Wagons for 3/4 ton duty. Logged a lot of miles on those things.

[TQP]

I was considering replacing my old vehicles with something made this century but noticed something very disturbing. It's pretty hard to find a 4x4 with a manual transfer case.

My '12 frontier has a lever, and either it's manual or they've managed to replicate the feel of the gears crunching in. A quick googling didn't give me an answer.

[Farswot]

Produced from 1951 to 1968 in the US & Canada. Series type G741.

Factory variants included cargo, command, ambulance, telephone maintenance. Limited production cab & chassis were contractor turned into crash rescue, dump bed, contact maintenance rigs.

Most were Army, some USMC, a few USAF. USN use was rare.

Farswot.

[JRB]

That is the attraction. I put 250K on that truck over 30 years.

That and a 3-53N Detroit, 5-sp OD, and 11:00-18's.

Newer sealing items done properly made leaks a no biggie.

Farswot

No kidding. Unfortunately the owner had a chubby for 'period correct' and 'military accurate' so he wanted to use all the 50's era cork gaskets, etc.

A powertrain swap like yours would be PERFECT in that truck. Well done, dude!

[fixer]

Moores' Gulch, N of Phoenix.

Can't figure if the astonishment I have is from the old vehicle going to a remote location, or there is rain in the PHX area.

[Balisong]

Can't figure if the astonishment I have is from the old vehicle going to a remote location, or there is rain in the PHX area.

I know its shocking to hear but some years the number of days with rain here approach the double digits!

[GyroF-16]

Yep- I’m pretty sure you’re using that Jeep as God (and Willie) intended. The home setting and mud splatter are good indicators. I genuinely wish you an uneventful maintenance experience with your Jeep.


Hopefully I can qualify for the 2% of Jeep owners that are non assholes.

I bought this 2018 JKU with the manual a few months ago and have been nothing but pleased. There are some screaming deals to be found on used manual Jeeps right now, because there are fewer buyers that can drive them or teach their kids to drive them.

I am a recent urban escapee and the Jeep fits my rural, mountainous area perfectly.

The first thing I did when I bought the Jeep was pull the OEM mud terrains off and put a new set of Duratracs on it. Most people who have trouble driving on snow or ice should stop expecting AWD, limited slip, etc to make up for running shitty tires. Our Outback has Blizzaks for winter and they make that thing look like a billy goat.

Hating on mall crawlers is certainly an enjoyable pastime, but in its element the Jeep still shines.

48579

[Farswot]

This took a lot of thinking & time. It paid off, too.

Farswot, the Jeep thread thief.

[OlongJohnson]

I'm not familiar with that engine, but I assume it's not the original. Personally, I'd probably have leaned toward a mech-injected four-banger Cummins, but that's only 'cause I'm a youngster.

[Farswot]

Kids...

Farswot

[RevolverRob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jfw1_ODKck&feature=emb_title

Alas, I couldn't find the other video where a Gladiator was high-centered on the Jeep obstacle course and had to be towed off....

[Grey]

The two things I really about the jeep is that I can easily reach in the bed from the side without climbing on something and I can take the doors and roof off for that cool guy jeep look.

Otherwise... Tundra plz.

[OlongJohnson]

I did find a dealer in NC or somewhere around there that has several Gladiator Rubicons with minimal options and manuals. They're discounted to the low 40s currently. To end up with that many of them, it must be on purpose. Would probably buy from them if I did buy, as it would be a relief to deal with a dealer that understands people like me actually exist. But probably won't buy.

Epiphany at lunch time: If I can deal with that small a box, what's keeping me from getting a used GM pickup with a 6 1/2 foot box and a 6.0?

[RevolverRob]

Epiphany at lunch time: If I can deal with that small a box, what's keeping me from getting a used GM pickup with a 6 1/2 foot box and a 6.0?

It’s a GM?

Just buy a Tundra and be done with it, bro.

[zaitcev]

I know its shocking to hear but some years the number of days with rain here approach the double digits!
3 or 4 years ago a friend of mine ferried a Flight Design CTLS through Phoenix and they were rained in for a week. After 3 days they parked the plane and took Southwest to home base to wait it out.

[zaitcev]

But speaking of Gladiators, there's a local shooter Rod, who drives one. He loves it and drives with doors off through the winter. I see him often at local classes and matches.

My experience with a 2010 Wrangler was extremely positive. It was bulletproof for 9 years and 140k miles. Jeeps were supposed to be unreliable, but I guess not anymore. But when I went to get a new one, I found that the same Wrangler that I bought for $32k in 2010 was priced at $54k now. The JL generation brought significant price increases. I ended buying a BMW X3 that was significantly cheaper.

[Duelist]

I know its shocking to hear but some years the number of days with rain here approach the double digits!

IKR?

I actually was irritated by rain here last week for one of the few times since I moved to AZ. It was tennis tryouts week, and we lost two days to rain.