CBP RFI for pistol red dot sights.

[5pins]

CBP is looking for red dots for their new Glocks.

https://beta.sam.gov/opp/c2d979065977462889e290c423a74971/view?keywords=U.S

[GJM]

Requires regular height Ameriglo Agent sights to work, no suppressor height sights. Requires battery changes without removing the optic, so no type 2 RMR. Also looks like a closed emitter. Does anything now meet these requirements?

[Mike C]

I don't think so but hopefully the request will cause some wheels to turn in that direction. Sounds like exactly what I want. I hate suppressor height sights.

[YVK]

After reading the requirements, I came to a conclusion that CBP officers will be using iron sights for the next 10-15 years.

[Caballoflaco]

Shall mount to the handgun slide MOS-cut directly, without the use of adaptor plates.

This seems silly, I’m not sure how the screw spacing on an mos cut slide will allow a closed emitter optic to be mounted without a plate.

[Alpha Sierra]

This seems silly, I’m not sure how the screw spacing on an mos cut slide will allow a closed emitter optic to be mounted without a plate.

I think YVK is right about what CBP is going to get: nothing.

[Tod-13]

Haven't we seen two direct to MOS red dots that use regular sights from Holosun and from a different company at a European trade show?

[Alpha Sierra]

and from a different company at a European trade show?

Noblex (formerly Docter)

[WobblyPossum]

Haven't we seen two direct to MOS red dots that use regular sights from Holosun and from a different company at a European trade show?

Neither one was closed emitter though. I don’t know if it’s possible to design a closed emitter optic that would use the MOS screw hole arrangement.

[jellydonut]

I'm glad to see this ambitious solicitation. It is a big contract, it might be just the kind of spur that is needed for companies to develop a red dot that actually fits on a handgun slide and doesn't suck in a dozen different ways.

I predict at least one company will actually pull through on this one. None of us thought it was possible to make a world-class 1-10x FFP in the same footprint as a 1-6x until a couple of weeks ago either.

[Tod-13]

Noblex (formerly Docter)

Yes!


Neither one was closed emitter though. I don’t know if it’s possible to design a closed emitter optic that would use the MOS screw hole arrangement.

Good catch.

But as noted before, people are working on similar stuff. So hopefully...

[Darth_Uno]

Well, I don't think an optic that checks all those boxes exists. But I hope somebody invents one because I'd buy it.

[HCM]

Well, I don't think an optic that checks all those boxes exists. But I hope somebody invents one because I'd buy it.

Well, CBP is the largest law enforcement agency in North America with 45,000 officers between the US border patrol, CBP field operations and CBP air in Marine. If that’s not a big enough honey pot to get someone to build the optic they want then it’s probably not feasible to build at this point.

[HCM]

http://soldiersystems.net/2020/02/07/cbp-seeks-service-handgun-electronic-aiming-device-for-new-glock-pistols/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[YVK]

I am curious if any sizable U.S. LE agency or a military branch has ever fielded a weapon or weapon-mounted accessory made in China, especially by a Chinese company.

In other words, if SIG or Holosun had such an optic, would it have a chance of being adopted? Color me skeptical.

[John Hearne]

After reading the requirements, I came to a conclusion that CBP officers will be using iron sights for the next 10-15 years.

That may be a feature, not a bug. When agencies don't really want to do something, they simply set onerously high standards that nobody can meet.....

[Danjojo]

I am curious if any sizable U.S. LE agency or a military branch has ever fielded a weapon or weapon-mounted accessory made in China, especially by a Chinese company.

In other words, if SIG or Holosun had such an optic, would it have a chance of being adopted? Color me skeptical.

Pretty sure most of the Leupold scopes and Doctor and Burris red dots used by us throughout GWOT had China bits and pieces.

Holosun could just assemble here in a new facility, a couple American bits and pieces added, and label Made in USA like so many others do.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Nothing meets all the requirements at this time. They seemingly want a direct mount w/o plates on a gun that isn't direct milled and requires use of plates. That iron sight co-witness standard isn't possible without direct milling. Interesting wish list...

[Doc_Glock]

This is quite a boon for the Glock, the MOS system and whomever comes up with this optic. And ultimately the consumer.

[RAM Engineer]

This is an RFI, not an RFP.

The former is basically a formalized market survey. The latter is a procurement.

[HCM]

I am curious if any sizable U.S. LE agency or a military branch has ever fielded a weapon or weapon-mounted accessory made in China, especially by a Chinese company.

In other words, if SIG or Holosun had such an optic, would it have a chance of being adopted? Color me skeptical.

A couple years back the FBI adopted the SIG Romeo 4M carbine red dot in lieu of the Aimpoint H2.

It is pretty well known that the SIG Romeo 4/5 optics are made in the same factory as Holosun if not just rebranded Holosuns. SIG got around the Berry compliance issue by bringing in the Bureau optics as parts kits and assembling them in the US.

There were some initial issues with the mounting screws. Subsequently there have been issues with optics dying at random. My understating is they won’t be buying anymore ROMEO 4Ms when this batch is done.

[Danjojo]

Is this one not enclosed emitter?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40184-Shot-Show-2020&p=984624&viewfull=1#post984624

Would also need a replaceable battery and user controlled brightness adjustment to fit the description but seems very close.

Maybe other pistol companies consider licensing MOS from Glock if this is knocked out of the park.

[HCM]

Is this one not enclosed emitter?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40184-Shot-Show-2020&p=984624&viewfull=1#post984624

Would also need a replaceable battery and user controlled brightness adjustment to fit the description but seems very close.

Maybe other pistol companies consider licensing MOS from Glock if this is knocked out of the park.

No, it is open emitter like the RMR, DPP etc.

[TCB]

Sounds like this could be a great optic for us if someone can make it happen. It sure checks off all my boxes for a duty PMRDO. Was hoping for our Chief to memo approve a couple currently available optics for private purchase (that was the rumor) but she just announced her retirement and who knows what the new guy will do...at this point I’m happy enough to see an end to .40 S&W and that gawd awful P2000.

[Screwball]

at this point I’m happy enough to see an end to .40 S&W and that gawd awful P2000.

I’ll drink to that... but still wish I could keep mine. Less than 2,000 rounds through it.

I’m sort of annoyed that OFO is going with the 19, but hey... more holster options. I’ll probably pick up a 19 Gen 5, and have it cut for a RMR by BattleWerks. More and more I look at the MOS setup, the more and more I don’t like it.

[deflave]

This is an RFI, not an RFP.

The former is basically a formalized market survey. The latter is a procurement.


Correct.

CBP can authorize optics without procuring 40K of them. If they found something they could do so with, they would.

Fact is most pistol mounted optics aren't ready for the unwashed masses. The RFI is designed to spur innovation in hopes that something better finds its way to the market.

If nothing else, CBP is doing the shooting world a big favor.

[YVK]

Aimpoint needs to talk to Glock about producing an OEM direct milled ACRO slide for G47.

[GJM]

Aimpoint needs to talk to Glock about producing an OEM direct milled ACRO slide for G47.

Glock needs to talk to Aimpoint about making an Acro with six months of battery life.

[Gio]

CBP would be better off pressuring Glock to make optic ready direct milled slides for the optic footprint of their choice.

[GJM]

CBP would be better off pressuring Glock to make optic ready direct milled slides for the optic footprint of their choice.

I don’t think that would take much pressuring — bet an order for 1,000 pistols would get Glock programming the machines to make an Acro cut instead of MOS.

[BigT]

Sig had an optic at SHOT , can't keep up with the models numbers so I can remember what it was called, that had a clip on section that enclosed the emitter. I'm sure Trijicon , Leupold etc could do something similar.

[deflave]

I don’t think that would take much pressuring — bet an order for 1,000 pistols would get Glock programming the machines to make an Acro cut instead of MOS.

Glock will make whatever their R&D guys want them to make in small batches. But that's not going to solve anything for them. Especially since at this time CBP doesn't authorize any pistol mounted optic on their duty weapons.

Optics come and go in very short amounts of time. The darliings of five years ago are not the darlings of today. MOS makes the most sense when you're outfitting an agency as large as CBP.

[5pins]

Even if Glock made a new slide it won't help CBP. They are not going to replace the slides on the pistols they have.

[YVK]

Even if Glock made a new slide it won't help CBP. They are not going to replace the slides on the pistols they have.

How many will need to be replaced? I mean, how many of those 47s have been fielded so far?
SIG replaced a bunch of M17s for the Army just because of mismatched colors on the controls. If Glock - Aimpoint collaboration locks them the duty dot / host market , it very well may be Glock's spending some $$ on it.

[5pins]

Around 15 to 20 thousand have been produced so far is my understanding.

[runcible]

This is an RFI, not an RFP.

The former is basically a formalized market survey. The latter is a procurement.

For those unfamiliar with the government procurement process, please reread the above quote.^

CBP already has a draft addendum for their monster equipment SOP as relates to optics on duty pistols. They also have a very good reputation for tightly-written solicitations and exhaustively written regs, from the outside; certainly plenty in DHS are more ecstatic and confident in the CBP solicitation's outcome vs ICE's, and for cause.

A well-written RFI is both an all-call to the industry and a strongly worded hint for those that want to bring their A-game come RFP time.

I don't think there's anything presently available that fully addresses the RFI; but there are plenty of options that are near to the whole of it and that could be adapted accordingly.

Given the relative newness of CBP officers being full-time LEOs, that org looks at the aging workforce reality a bit differently than most other LEAs, and I suspect that this is emblematic of that.

[runcible]

How many will need to be replaced? I mean, how many of those 47s have been fielded so far?
SIG replaced a bunch of M17s for the Army just because of mismatched colors on the controls. If Glock - Aimpoint collaboration locks them the duty dot / host market , it very well may be Glock's spending some $$ on it.

A matter of color as opposed to a matter of configuration is a very different concern for an agency, as relates to them departing the agreed upon configuration that ended a competitive process.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don’t think that would take much pressuring — bet an order for 1,000 pistols would get Glock programming the machines to make an Acro cut instead of MOS.

I bet half that quantity would be easily doable with minor NRE costs (or none if the payback is good/fast enough).

Think about it, the programming time would be pretty small, the workholding fixtures are still the same (you're still holding the same slide, in the same mill, in the same XYZ orientation) and at most tooling changes would be swapping some mill cutters/inserts for another. Post machining operations would still all be the same.

[AMC]

Sig had an optic at SHOT , can't keep up with the models numbers so I can remember what it was called, that had a clip on section that enclosed the emitter. I'm sure Trijicon , Leupold etc could do something similar.

The Romeo 2. Will come with 2 shrouds, one of which makes it an enclosed emitter. The Electro Optics guys said it will be formally released at NRA. It looks promising.....much more robust housing than the Romeo 1 Pro. Might end up being their first duty ready sight.

[YVK]

Around 15 to 20 thousand have been produced so far is my understanding.

That would be a whole lotta guns to replace, especially that Glock doesn't really benefit from it in regards to this particular contract.


Would be interesting to see how industry responds to it. I've got to say, I think ACRO's cross-bolt attachment is its second best feature after its closed emitter. Getting rid of small screws with all of their problems is great, I wish all optics attached that way. I'd be disappoint if Aimpoint tried to revise this part of their design.

[call_me_ski]

That would be a whole lotta guns to replace, especially that Glock doesn't really benefit from it in regards to this particular contract.


Would be interesting to see how industry responds to it. I've got to say, I think ACRO's cross-bolt attachment is its second best feature after its closed emitter. Getting rid of small screws with all of their problems is great, I wish all optics attached that way. I'd be disappoint if Aimpoint tried to revise this part of their design.

I agree with the ACRO Mount being a great design. I have some doubts that Sig’s new design will have all the benefits of other closed optics. How do they plan of controlling fogging without it being purged? Also it isn’t IPX8 rated. I think the Border patrol is more likely than most LE to find themselves wading through water. Then again I don’t know.

[HCM]

Given the relative newness of CBP officers being full-time LEOs, that org looks at the aging workforce reality a bit differently than most other LEAs, and I suspect that this is emblematic of that.

No but yes-

CBP has approximately 45,000 LEOs. All of them are and have been full-time since the creation of CBP and the department of homeland security. I think you meant covered under LE retirement but the is only true of CBP OFO which is less than half the agency.

There are a little over 20,000 LEO in the US border patrol which is part of CBP. Like the Marine Corps being part of the Navy the border patrol likes to downplay the fact that they are part of CBP. A little over 20,000 in the CBP office of field operations (OFO) which performs the prior functions of US immigration and US customs inspectors at ports of entry. These officers wear blue uniforms and are now known as CBP Officers or “CBPO.” Finally, there approximately 3000 to 4000 in the CBP Air and Marine Operations branch (AMO).

Up until a few years ago, only certain members of the CBP OFO had “6c” law-enforcement retirement coverage Which in the federal system has traditionally meant in by 37 and out by 57. While CBP OFO Officers Or still not “6c” covered, They recently got their own unique form of law-enforcement retirement as opposed to regular federal civil service retirement.

Both US BP and AMO have been “6c” covered since prior to the creation of DHS/CBP.

Even for 6C Positions CBP and border patrol have generally extended the entry age to in by 40 and out by 60. Many other agencies are allowing 6C covered personnel to do extensions to 60 if they can pass fitness for duty examinations. Some federal law-enforcement agencies are also allowing US military veterans to enter on duty above the age of 37 or 40 but maintaining the mandatory retirement ages of 57 or 60. The catch is that to get the higher 6C/LE Retirement rate one must do 20 years of 6C covered time so those entering on duty beyond 37 or 40 will receive a reduced pension versus those who completed a full term.

In many local police departments it is not uncommon for officers to enter on duty between the ages of 20 and 25 and retire in their early 40s, Similar to the US military. Due to the nature of federal law-enforcement positions and their entry requirements most federal LE enter on duty between 25 and 35 And it is now trending to entering on duty between 25 and 40. Given that most people start having age related changes to their vision between 40 and 45 this is a concern for all federal agencies.

For example, due to the entry requirements and the background needed to be a competitive candidate, which usually exceeds the minimum requirements, most FBI Agents are prior military officer, prior LE, prior professionals, have graduate degrees etc etc so many of their new recruits now a days are in their 30s.

[HCM]

I agree with the ACRO Mount being a great design. I have some doubts that Sig’s new design will have all the benefits of other closed optics. How do they plan of controlling fogging without it being purged? Also it isn’t IPX8 rated. I think the Border patrol is more likely than most LE to find themselves wading through water. Then again I don’t know.

I don’t know about wading through water but more likely to be outdoors at all hours and in all types of weather conditions so fogging due to temperature changes and Ambient humidity would definitely be a concern

[Inspector71]

Given the relative newness of CBP officers being full-time LEOs, that org looks at the aging workforce reality a bit differently than most other LEAs, and I suspect that this is emblematic of that.

Just to further cover the point, the CBP Officer position (series 1895), has been receiving the enhanced LEO retirement package for all time post July 6th, 2008. Those on board prior to that date were grandfathered in with no mandatory retirement age. Those after, have to retire by age 57.

[HCM]

Given the relative newness of CBP officers being full-time LEOs, that org looks at the aging workforce reality a bit differently than most other LEAs, and I suspect that this is emblematic of that.

Just to further cover the point, the CBP Officer position (series 1895), has been receiving the enhanced LEO retirement package for all time post July 6th, 2008. Those on board prior to that date were grandfathered in with no mandatory retirement age. Those after, have to retire by age 57.

It’s 6d coverage, yes ?

[Inspector71]

It’s 6d coverage, yes ?

No. They did not extend LE retirement coverage by amending either 6c/12d. Congress passed stand alone, new legislation PL 110-161, to extend the same benefit (the math works out the same as if doing your 20 years under traditional 6c/12d position).

[El Cid]

CBP would be better off pressuring Glock to make optic ready direct milled slides for the optic footprint of their choice.

But wouldn’t that marry them to an optic? Would an agency buy M-4’s if they came with an optic and only that optic worked with it?

[JSGlock34]

But wouldn’t that marry them to an optic? Would an agency buy M-4’s if they came with an optic and only that optic worked with it?

I think what we're seeing with the M17 is the way to go. DPP standard footprint. Either make your optic to the DPP footprint or use an adapter plate. I'm sure Trijicon is working on a RMR/SRO for the DPP footprint; they'd be crazy to pass on potential military contracts.

But at least one optic option should be a direct mount to a slide. Interface plates suck.

https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Sig_Mil_03.jpg

[HCM]

No. They did not extend LE retirement coverage by amending either 6c/12d. Congress passed stand alone, new legislation PL 110-161, to extend the same benefit (the math works out the same as if doing your 20 years under traditional 6c/12d position).

I’m aware of the stand alone, I thought I was codified under 6d.

Here is more than you would ever want to know about it... https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09727.pdf

Suffice to say between extensions to 60, many agencies raising Entry age to 40 and the MSPB Isabella decision allowing veterans to partially wave entry age restrictions all federal LE needs to be concerned with their “aging workforce.”

[HCM]

I think what we're seeing with the M17 is the way to go. DPP standard footprint. Either make your optic to the DPP footprint or use an adapter plate. I'm sure Trijicon is working on a RMR/SRO for the DPP footprint; they'd be crazy to pass on potential military contracts.

But at least one optic option should be a direct mount to a slide. Interface plates suck.

https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Sig_Mil_03.jpg

The endpoint ACRO mounting system seems to be the best option for closed emitter optics.

I can’t think of anyone who would be better served with a closed emitter optic vs an open emitter than the military though USBP is pretty close.

[deflave]

Given the relative newness of CBP officers being full-time LEOs, that org looks at the aging workforce reality a bit differently than most other LEAs, and I suspect that this is emblematic of that.

I read further and see now that you are speaking specifically to OFO.

Please disregard my last.

[Gio]

But wouldn’t that marry them to an optic? Would an agency buy M-4’s if they came with an optic and only that optic worked with it?

Not necessarily. If you mandate an optic footprint then all the manufacturers that hope to compete for that contract are going to make an optic to fit that footprint. I think standardization in the industry in this regard could be a good thing long term.

[call_me_ski]

Not necessarily. If you mandate an optic footprint then all the manufacturers that hope to compete for that contract are going to make an optic to fit that footprint. I think standardization in the industry in this regard could be a good thing long term.

I think the Army going with DDP pattern and CBP going MOS might be a roadblock for an truly universal footprint.

[RAM Engineer]

I think the Army going with DDP pattern and CBP going MOS might be a roadblock for an truly universal footprint.

Small population, but USMS SOG's Staccatos are using the DPP footprint as well. I'm not smart enough to know what the pros vs cons are of DPP vs RMR footprints.

[HCM]

Small population, but USMS SOG's Staccatos are using the DPP footprint as well. I'm not smart enough to know what the pros vs cons are of DPP vs RMR footprints.

All Staccato DUO default to the DPP foot print. RMRs require an adaptor plate. I don't think the USMS SOG contract was a deciding factor in that. It is logical as the DPP optic window sits higher, making the tall optic your default and adding the thickness of an adaptor plate to the shorter optic allows the same BUIS to be visible through the window of both optics.

SIG's current PRO optics cut accommodates both the DPP / SIG R1 PRO and the RMR, which was a requirement for the CBP contract.

[Tokarev]

I think the Army going with DDP pattern and CBP going MOS might be a roadblock for an truly universal footprint.Nothing has been decided yet. CBP has had some responses from industry but no real testing is underway as far as I know. If anything we probably won't be doing much until early to mid 2021.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Holosun has something new which seems to be a direct response to this RFI.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYvalseLwJj/?utm_medium=copy_link

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51228-Holosun-Solar-powered-dot-that-fits-MOS-cut-out

[Noah]

Holosun has something new which seems to be a direct response to this RFI.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYvalseLwJj/?utm_medium=copy_link

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51228-Holosun-Solar-powered-dot-that-fits-MOS-cut-out


Not a closed emitter. I agree with old posts that the requirement to use the MOS screw holes makes a closed emitter hard.