PDA

View Full Version : The Speed Re-Holster



KevH
05-05-2012, 03:16 PM
I've noticed a disturbing trend lately of what I'm now calling "The Speed Re-Holster."

It's always been the objective to smoothly draw a pistol from the holster as fast as possible. Getting a handgun into the fight is a needed skill that no one is going to argue with. What is NOT needed is to re-holster extremely fast.

I just spent the last week in a patrol rifle instructor course. The attendees were all firearms instructors from various local LE agencies but as with most classes experience (and competence) varied.

For most of my career various LE instructors have advocated re-holstering without looking at the holster to the point where you would get yelled at if you looked down. This wasn't a huge concern when all of our guns had hammers on the back and it was standard practice to press on it with your thumb as you re-holstered. Now that most folks around here have striker fired guns we've seen more than a few ND's (especially when other crap on the belt or North Face fleece tabs gets into the trigger guard). I don't think glancing down quickly to re-holster will get you killed. I think shooting yourself in the leg during a firefight might.

During the class this week I watched a guy almost shoot himself in the leg trying to stick his Glock back into a Safariland 6004. He was so concerned with sticking it in there fast that twice his finger was danerously dabbling near or in the trigger guard and because he was refusing to look down (old school) he couldn't quite find the holster mouth. I watched in horror and just waited for the pop. The issue was addressed as the class instructor caught it as well and said something to him about it and then used the command "reluctantly holster" after the firing sequences. He wasn't the only one. I watched a couple other guys that I'm sure got wrapped up in the speed of the drills take that same speed to the re-holster. SLOW IT DOWN! Be deliberate. Be SAFE!

Yes, I realize that sometimes in the LE world you need to holster up fairly fast to go hands-on. I've been there and understand it. But if you don't holster it SAFELY then fast will do you no good. Your re-holster should not be as fast as your draw...and...since you're putting your gun away...things should be safe to glance down at your holster to orient yourself. This doesn't meen stare at it the whole time, but if a quick glance means the difference between a safe re-holster or fumbling forever or ND'ing...then take a friggin glance.

Please...do NOT speed re-holster!

MD7305
05-05-2012, 03:36 PM
I've noticed this before at our academy range. It seems that as the tempo of the drills increases so does the re-holstering. A few years ago I was on the opposite end of the line when someone had a malfunction. The malfunction was then discovered to be a hole in his Uncle Mike's duty holster, a smoldering hole in the ground, and a case of the shakes. The drill was something to the effect of firing AMRAP in a short time from the holster. As the time was gradually decreased this gent was thinking "faster" instead of "finger off the trigger" and the suprise happened.

Scary stuff.

jetfire
05-05-2012, 03:39 PM
That's why I'm an advocate of the "hard break" from a mental standpoint before I re-holster. Finish shooting the drill, bring the gun back to a high compressed ready, assess my target/take a breath/burp/do something to break the mind from "SHOOTSHOOTSHOOT" to "put the damn gun away."

The other thing that I try to do is "consciously holster." I want lots of actions like reloads, sight tracking, etc to be done with no-mind, when I'm putting the gun away, especially in the appendix position, I want to mind the holster, the trigger, the gun, etc.

Jay Cunningham
05-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Put your handgun back in the holster... reluctantly.

ToddG
05-05-2012, 04:04 PM
I also teach (and require) a hard break before holstering when I teach.

FWIW, I taught a LE-only class earlier this year where I brought up the same thing and the officers were adamant that they needed to be able to holster lightning quick without looking when doing things like solo cuffing, which this particular agency apparently does often. My response was to tell them they could do whatever they wanted the other 362 days of the year, but for three days of class they had to hard break.

JConn
05-05-2012, 05:57 PM
Very few things scare me more on a public range then someone speed rehoslstering. It's just dumb.

abu fitna
05-05-2012, 06:05 PM
I've also encountered this issue more than a few times when folks would argue for fast reloads after carbine / SMG transition drills. The thinking was that the pistol was used as an emergency action measure to fight off the immediate threat, but that the primary weapon was still down and needed to be brought back into action as soon as possible - one is none and all that. Thus speed re-holstering as the final step in timed drills, with or without re-engagement with the rifle depending on course of fire.

Not a good argument in my book, again as a wounded man is less combat effective than one who takes an extra second or two to get his rifle back up (given the immediate threat has been ended, or one wouldn't be re-holstering the pistol in the first instance).

The lack of a reset pause (at high ready retention, or SUL) after shooting is also frequently one of the things where you see folks fail to decock a conventional DA / SA pistol before re-holstering, or fail to safe an SA. (Once upon a time, I was guilty of this offense once and exactly once, on the firing line of a name school under the gaze of an experienced instructor. Embarrassing enough I didn't do that twice, but it took me quite a while and watching a lot of folks over time to understand the cause of that error.) While I still advocate DAO and striker safe / quick action designs for a lot of other reasons now, removing the failure to decock / safe on reholster as one source of potential human error remains a good thing as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, one doesn't always have the luxury of choosing one's weapon, something that is particularly challenging for those in austere environments with few options (or even in developed countries under the straightjacket of certain agencies' or departments' policies.)

I was also taught that if one found oneself too often with an unholstered weapon when needing to go hands on as tactical situations developed it was usually a failure of good contact / cover dynamics. Now, not everyone has the luxury of working with a partner, or has that partner in position to cover when first needed. And of course, the real world happens despite the best laid plans, so one may find oneself in a challenging situation now and again. But just like training for weapon retention, this is a phase that can be handled with the red gun and mats (and frankly in my view should be, with emphasis on decision as much as the physical).

I consider speed holstering to be a training scar on par with picking up one's brass or spent magazines immediately after engagement. But this is one where there remains a lot of resistance.

Odin Bravo One
05-06-2012, 04:24 AM
Six pack abs have never proven to kick anybody's ass, and no one has ever won a gunfight by his ability to re-holster fast.

jetfire
05-06-2012, 08:13 AM
Six pack abs have never proven to kick anybody's ass, and no one has ever won a gunfight by his ability to re-holster fast.

But they both look cool.

Dr. No
05-06-2012, 10:20 AM
Six pack abs have never proven to kick anybody's ass, and no one has ever won a gunfight by his ability to re-holster fast.

If you are in a gunfight, holstering is just about the dumbest thing in the world.

However we in LE are frequently in situations where we point guns at people even though we cannot utilize deadly force. There have been numerous times where a career idiot knows this and is not scared of me pointing a gun at him, and will not comply with my commands. I have had to holster my pistol to change weapon systems or to go hands on, and often at scary close distances.

I too am a firearms instructor and understand the scary aspect of people getting in a hurry to holster. I've seen cops blast themselves because their trigger finger discipline sucks.

I would warn you guys from saying you "never need to holster fast". You will lose a lot of credibility with some of your students. I would change that to "I understand you may have to holster quickly at times - so this is why trigger finger discipline is paramount". The way I teach it to people is the mirror image of the draw, including the finger index and engaging manual safeties. I do advocate that they should keep their eyes on their threat - if I am holstering because the idiot is doing something I don't like and I'm going to have to "correct his actions", split seconds may be very important. If I'm holstering because I 10 ringed the bad guy and the fight is over .... I don't mind looking at my holster to get the gun in. My hands will probably be shaking pretty hard anyway.

I do think it's a good idea for students in a class to crawl walk run with this ... teach them the draw stroke where the final step on holstering involves them looking at their holster. Half way through the class, explain to them that a good draw index will alleviate the need to do this by building muscle memory, and have them stop looking at that point. I think it will build better habits while still accomplishing the safety goals of the class.

All that being said, if you have a student who is ate up .... You may have to hold off on the walking/running part for them for a bit.

Odin Bravo One
05-06-2012, 12:09 PM
The OP was speaking about speed re-holstering as it pertained to post-shooting procedures, which is where my comments were directed.

rob_s
05-06-2012, 12:30 PM
It strikes me that if holstering rapidly and without looking is such a major factor, it should be taught and practiced. The good news is that it can easily be practiced at home. The bad news is that few of the people that need to, will. It's been a long time since I played with a cop holster and when I did it was an SSIII that I kept set up in the gunshop I worked at just to play with in between customers. It was certainly possible to re-holster without looking but if one of the customers hadn't told me how to index the gun to easily get it back in it probably would have taken me awhile to figure it out. I wouldn't know what to do with one of the new Safarilands and an X300, although I suspect the concept is the same but the minutiae has changed.

This strikes me as one of those issues of whether to train to the level of the students or to train to the ideal. I have seen cops that damn near can't get the gun OUT of the holster without looking, let alone back in. Are we really going to advocate that those guys re-holster a loaded gun without looking? Or is the theory that they're better off maybe shooting themselves or the ground in a traffic stop than they are taking their eyes off the suspect? and is re-holstering and properly indexing taught, and explained as to why this is important?

I'm asking that seriously, without sarcasm, in an attempt to understand the priorities.

Steve S.
05-06-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm not in LE, but I can agree with Rob. I think a split second glance could be beneficial.

I also understand why LE would not teach this. Split second glances in training could turn into long period glares under stress.

What was the "trick" to the duty holster, Rob? Slightly canting the pistol to index?

rob_s
05-06-2012, 04:22 PM
What was the "trick" to the duty holster, Rob? Slightly canting the pistol to index?

The only way I could reholster (IIRC, this was 10+ years ago) with the SSIII without looking was exactly that, to cant the muzzle slightly forward, get the tip in, and then let the holster front guide the whole thing in rolling my wrist forward to seat it. I'm sure I would have figured it out eventually but having someone show me made it that much quicker and meant the time I would have spent figuring it out on my own could instead be spent getting it right. Not that it mattered, I was just a kid screwing around in a gunshop.

nonameisgood
05-06-2012, 05:28 PM
Nothing wrong with doing things fast and sloppy if the circumstances require accepting the risk, but being sloppy or inobservant during practice or training is not a good plan. Slow enough to be deliberate and build good habits is the way to go.

I was chastised in a draw-and-fire course for moving my thumb to the hammer of my HK LEM. Once I explained that I have cultivated the technique to avoid ND when holstering, the instructor shrugged and said "ok, but that could get you kills in a fight.". I agree, but I practice a lot more than I fight, so the technique stays in my practice, which also includes practice of a "safely back on target after starting to holster" drill.

TCinVA
05-06-2012, 05:42 PM
In any other aspect of handling a firearm under stress, it's pretty widely accepted that we need to do so with practices that safeguard against unintentionally launching bullets into our own anatomy or into others...except when it comes to registering?

I have no doubt that there are occasions when someone needs to put a handgun away to deal with a problem, but in such a circumstance is it really reasonable to hold that we abandon the idea of thinking critically about what we are doing with a deadly weapon and teach people to shove a striker fired pistol with a light trigger and no manual safety into a holster blindly? We expect people to account for the trajectory of their rounds while they are actively trying to put down a threat...but having them check clearance to the holster is a bridge too far?

It sounds to me like this may be one of those things that's being insulated from critical thinking by tradition.

Dr. No
05-06-2012, 07:31 PM
In any other aspect of handling a firearm under stress, it's pretty widely accepted that we need to do so with practices that safeguard against unintentionally launching bullets into our own anatomy or into others...except when it comes to registering?

I have no doubt that there are occasions when someone needs to put a handgun away to deal with a problem, but in such a circumstance is it really reasonable to hold that we abandon the idea of thinking critically about what we are doing with a deadly weapon and teach people to shove a striker fired pistol with a light trigger and no manual safety into a holster blindly? We expect people to account for the trajectory of their rounds while they are actively trying to put down a threat...but having them check clearance to the holster is a bridge too far?

It sounds to me like this may be one of those things that's being insulated from critical thinking by tradition.

In no way am I advocating that the first time we teach the draw we tell students to slam the gun into the holster as fast as possible. In no way am I saying we should say "you should stop being safe ... when you holster". Besides, how is a "striker fired pistol with a light trigger and no manual safety" going to discharge when you stick the gun into the holster blindly ...... unless you have your finger on the trigger or some sort of obstruction in the trigger guard? Aren't these things that you would notice ... if you were safety conscious about where your trigger finger is?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but to me it seems we are addressing the symptoms and not the cause. The cause of discharging a round while re-holstering is your finger on the trigger. Not because you are holstering. You can still shoot yourself if you look at the holster .... and have your finger on the trigger.

Also, are you really going to be able to see your holster or an obstruction at night? Wearing a gas mask? How about when you've been in a fight? If not, it may not be a good technique to teach. Again, there are numerous times and scenarios I have personally experienced and trained in where re-holstering quickly is important. I personally think re-holstering in a rapid fashion without taking your eyes off the threat it is a valid technique to teach, but the crawl walk run approach is certainly valid so that we build confidence and don't have shaky stressed out new shooters slamming a gun in leather.

jmjames
05-06-2012, 07:48 PM
In no way am I advocating that the first time we teach the draw we tell students to slam the gun into the holster as fast as possible. In no way am I saying we should say "you should stop being safe ... when you holster". Besides, how is a "striker fired pistol with a light trigger and no manual safety" going to discharge when you stick the gun into the holster blindly ...... unless you have your finger on the trigger or some sort of obstruction in the trigger guard? Aren't these things that you would notice ... if you were safety conscious about where your trigger finger is?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but to me it seems we are addressing the symptoms and not the cause. The cause of discharging a round while re-holstering is your finger on the trigger. Not because you are holstering. You can still shoot yourself if you look at the holster .... and have your finger on the trigger.

Also, are you really going to be able to see your holster or an obstruction at night? Wearing a gas mask? How about when you've been in a fight? If not, it may not be a good technique to teach. Again, there are numerous times and scenarios I have personally experienced and trained in where re-holstering quickly is important. I personally think re-holstering in a rapid fashion without taking your eyes off the threat it is a valid technique to teach, but the crawl walk run approach is certainly valid so that we build confidence and don't have shaky stressed out new shooters slamming a gun in leather.

Some of the folks earlier in the thread mentioned a number of possible ways for something other than a finger to snag on the trigger during re-holster. I can certainly imagine that after a gunfight, clothing may be in the way, stuff on the belt may have shifted around to weird places... all it takes is for the officer to miss the holster in the heat of the moment and snag the trigger on the corner of a belt pouch or even the sweatshield on the holster and KA-BLAM.

J.Ja

Jac
05-06-2012, 09:06 PM
However we in LE are frequently in situations where we point guns at people even though we cannot utilize deadly force.

Not to get too far off topic, but that's frightening.

Dr. No
05-06-2012, 09:51 PM
Some of the folks earlier in the thread mentioned a number of possible ways for something other than a finger to snag on the trigger during re-holster. I can certainly imagine that after a gunfight, clothing may be in the way, stuff on the belt may have shifted around to weird places... all it takes is for the officer to miss the holster in the heat of the moment and snag the trigger on the corner of a belt pouch or even the sweatshield on the holster and KA-BLAM.

J.Ja

Again, going back to what I've said already ... If the gunfight is over and there is nothing else to do but call crime scene, there is nothing wrong with looking at your holster.

I've pulled my gun hundreds of times on duty. I've never shot anyone. Many many times after I've pointed a gun at someone I've had to fight them.

Dr. No
05-06-2012, 09:55 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but that's frightening.

You should go ride out with your local PD and see what the world is like through their eyes. We get sent into very dangerous situations with very little information.

There is also a provision in Texas law that allows the threat of deadly force even though the use of deadly force may not be justified at the time. An example: I served a felony warrant with one of my partners. The persons inside would not come to the door, but we heard them inside. We gained entry through an unlocked door and they would not show themselves even after we announced our presence multiple times in our Big Boy voices. Finally, a male popped his head over the second story landing and was greeted by my pistol and orders to show his hands.

Could I have shot him at that point? Not in the least. He however was hiding a felon (a felony charge in itself), had the high ground on us, and was not complying with instructions. My threat of deadly force finally convinced him to come downstairs and I holstered and handcuffed him.

Use of force is never a pretty thing.

TGS
05-06-2012, 10:18 PM
In no way am I advocating that the first time we teach the draw we tell students to slam the gun into the holster as fast as possible. In no way am I saying we should say "you should stop being safe ... when you holster". Besides, how is a "striker fired pistol with a light trigger and no manual safety" going to discharge when you stick the gun into the holster blindly ...... unless you have your finger on the trigger or some sort of obstruction in the trigger guard? Aren't these things that you would notice ... if you were safety conscious about where your trigger finger is?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but to me it seems we are addressing the symptoms and not the cause. The cause of discharging a round while re-holstering is your finger on the trigger. Not because you are holstering. You can still shoot yourself if you look at the holster .... and have your finger on the trigger.

Also, are you really going to be able to see your holster or an obstruction at night? Wearing a gas mask? How about when you've been in a fight? If not, it may not be a good technique to teach. Again, there are numerous times and scenarios I have personally experienced and trained in where re-holstering quickly is important. I personally think re-holstering in a rapid fashion without taking your eyes off the threat it is a valid technique to teach, but the crawl walk run approach is certainly valid so that we build confidence and don't have shaky stressed out new shooters slamming a gun in leather.

Not saying you're right or wrong with regards to the applicability of holstering quickly, but I do take issue with how you are equating ND's during reholstering as caused by the lack of a trigger finger index, even when holstering quickly. You mentioned it once, but pretty much ignored it with the actual message your sending; other obstructions can get in your shit, and keeping your finger out of the trigger guard and in a good index isn't going to do anything to help you.

I also take issue with the idea that a safety conscience person would be able to notice an obstruction and react appropriately if they're slamming a gun home in the holster without looking. "Safety conscience" isn't just a mindset.....it's taking physical steps to create safety, like looking at the holster, holstering slow enough to give your flawed human self enough time to react to the foreign object, indexing the trigger finger out and away from the trigger guard, and/or thumbing the hammer. You can't just say, "I'm safety conscience" and slam a gun home into a holster without taking safety steps and expect "safety conscience" to help you when foreign matter catches your trigger. By holstering quickly without looking, you have just taken away 2 of 3 universal protocols to actually create safety, and have absolutely no safety net to catch you with the issue of foreign objects (with the exception of a safety lever engaged, hammered or gadgeted weapon) .

Reholstering a SFA Glock/M&P/ect very rapidly without looking negates safety. This is not debatable. It may be necessary to do such, but equating that it's just as safe is quite absurd.


Not to get too far off topic, but that's frightening.

It's a frightening world, with a lot of very frightening people, who need to have frightening guns pointed at them in order to frighten them.


Split second glances in training could turn into long period glares under stress.

Like this (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2883-Monterey-Park-CA-OIS-incident-captured-on-video-by-idiotic-bystanders) at 00:40:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY5ioBvrYIg&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dcarls%2Bjr%2Bshooting%26oq%3Dcarls%2Bjr %2Bshooting%26aq%3Df%26aqi%3D%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyo utube-psuggest.3...6941.10814.0.10943.17.17.0.0.0.0.180. 1632.13j4.17.0...0.0.

Jac
05-07-2012, 07:13 AM
Okay, so putting aside that violating the four rules seems to be a common thing among LEOs (that doesn't seem to concern anyone else), and looking at it purely from an on-topic perspective:

Perhaps cops would be speed-reholstering less often if they weren't getting their guns out with the knowlege that they would not be shooting. I mean, everyone makes a big deal when cops ND because they've cocked their DA/SA guns before making a clear decision to shoot; isn't this as much of a training failure?

jmjames
05-07-2012, 07:44 AM
Okay, so putting aside that violating the four rules seems to be a common thing among LEOs (that doesn't seem to concern anyone else), and looking at it purely from an on-topic perspective:

Perhaps cops would be speed-reholstering less often if they weren't getting their guns out with the knowlege that they would not be shooting. I mean, everyone makes a big deal when cops ND because they've cocked their DA/SA guns before making a clear decision to shoot; isn't this as much of a training failure?

EDIT: Eh... I'm struggling to phrase this in a way that makes any sense at this hour of the morning...

J.Ja

Dr. No
05-07-2012, 08:51 AM
Not saying you're right or wrong with regards to the applicability of holstering quickly, but I do take issue with how you are equating ND's during reholstering as caused by the lack of a trigger finger index, even when holstering quickly. You mentioned it once, but pretty much ignored it with the actual message your sending; other obstructions can get in your shit, and keeping your finger out of the trigger guard and in a good index isn't going to do anything to help you.


Out of the ND's you've seen while holstering, what is the leading cause of them? I would hazard a guess it's finger on the trigger. The minority reason would be things like - grass/sticks/dirt/gear in the way of the holster, the retention hood popped up, snap getting in the way, etc. Again, if there is an obstruction IN the holster, the gun shouldn't go in correctly - this still won't cause it to discharge unless the trigger is actually pulled. Gear hanging up on the trigger I would say is the 20%, while finger on the trigger is the 80.

One of my street partners put a 12ga slug through the floor of a trailer home when he transitioned from his shotgun to a taser without putting it on safe. When he slung the shotgun it hung up on his taser holster and discharged. Would he have prevented that by looking at where he was slinging the shotgun, or by activating the safety and/or controlling the gun as it was slung? Not that this is the same as putting a pistol away, but it goes back to the "focusing on safety and why it is important, at ALL times, will prevent these kinds of accidents".



I also take issue with the idea that a safety conscience person would be able to notice an obstruction and react appropriately if they're slamming a gun home in the holster without looking. "Safety conscience" isn't just a mindset.....it's taking physical steps to create safety, like looking at the holster, holstering slow enough to give your flawed human self enough time to react to the foreign object, indexing the trigger finger out and away from the trigger guard, and/or thumbing the hammer. You can't just say, "I'm safety conscience" and slam a gun home into a holster without taking safety steps and expect "safety conscience" to help you when foreign matter catches your trigger. By holstering quickly without looking, you have just taken away 2 of 3 universal protocols to actually create safety, and have absolutely no safety net to catch you with the issue of foreign objects (with the exception of a safety lever engaged, hammered or gadgeted weapon) .

Reholstering a SFA Glock/M&P/ect very rapidly without looking negates safety. This is not debatable. It may be necessary to do such, but equating that it's just as safe is quite absurd.


You are a trainer, and you are an experienced shooter. How often do you look at your holster? Do you consider yourself unsafe when you do not do so?

If you are disciplined in your trigger finger location, you have your gear set up correctly so your path to/from the holster is unencumbered, and nothing is able to inject itself into your trigger guard, what is unsafe about putting the pistol in the holster as fast as it came out?




Like this (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2883-Monterey-Park-CA-OIS-incident-captured-on-video-by-idiotic-bystanders) at 00:40:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY5ioBvrYIg&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dcarls%2Bjr%2Bshooting%26oq%3Dcarls%2Bjr %2Bshooting%26aq%3Df%26aqi%3D%26aql%3D%26gs_l%3Dyo utube-psuggest.3...6941.10814.0.10943.17.17.0.0.0.0.180. 1632.13j4.17.0...0.0.

That is a perfect example of what we're discussing. Not a situation non-LE encounter very often.

The officer trying to switch to a less lethal solution is missing his holster completely because he's stressed out. Not to debate his tactics here, but why is he trying to go hands on with a non-compliant guy with a large weapon? Not to mention he probably should be holding lethal cover since his partner has a giant dog that is yanking him around.

Regardless, he tries to holster his pistol and looks at his holster because it won't go in. In that split second the bad guy turns and wields the weapon threateningly. Thankfully his partner is switched on and starts pulling the trigger.

Wouldn't this be a perfect example for a time when there is a need to quickly re-holster while keeping eyes on the threat? If he was alone, that scene could have turned out very very different.

Dr. No
05-07-2012, 08:56 AM
Okay, so putting aside that violating the four rules seems to be a common thing among LEOs (that doesn't seem to concern anyone else), and looking at it purely from an on-topic perspective:

Perhaps cops would be speed-reholstering less often if they weren't getting their guns out with the knowlege that they would not be shooting. I mean, everyone makes a big deal when cops ND because they've cocked their DA/SA guns before making a clear decision to shoot; isn't this as much of a training failure?

You're right. We shouldn't point guns at people who have evaded us in a vehicle - we can't shoot them because they don't have a weapon, right?

We shouldn't point guns at people who won't show us their hands after they've threatened to kill us. we can't shoot them because they don't have a weapon, right?

We shouldn't pull our guns when we go to a burglar alarm at 0400 in the morning and we run into a person who's wearing all black and have gloves on. we can't shoot them because they don't have a weapon, right?

You don't seem to have a good grasp as to how the LE world works.

And when did anyone say anything about cocking pistols before making a decision to shoot? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that .... aside from people trying to fudge at qualifications.

People make a big deal about cops ND'ing with their finger on the trigger. It happens a lot with cops because we tend to use our guns more than the rest of the public. That being said, most cops are not 'gun people' and do not practice. They don't practice with their batons, with their defensive tactics, with their pursuit driving, and they don't PT.

Then again, most non-cops don't do that stuff either....

TCinVA
05-07-2012, 09:07 AM
Aren't these things that you would notice ... if you were safety conscious about where your trigger finger is?

You speak as if being "safety conscious" is a binary condition of the human mind...as if people either are, or are not, "safety conscious". In reality human beings operate in a spectrum. There are times when human beings are very safety conscious, and there are times where the exact same human being under different circumstances is not "safety conscious". Therefore breeding a practice which requires that you must be "safety conscious" to avoid disaster is, for lack of a better term, stupid. The number of people who have managed to launch a round while attempting to reholster seems to speak to the fact that whether someone is a clueless noob, a trained Law Enforcement Professional, or even a grand-master level competitive shooter, it's possible for people to have not "safety conscious" moments and launch a bullet.



I'm not trying to be difficult, but to me it seems we are addressing the symptoms and not the cause.


The "cause" is that human beings are human. Through casual inattention bred by familiarity or under stress human beings can perform acts they've performed dozens/hundreds/thousands of times before, screw it up, and in the process kill or injure themselves.



The cause of discharging a round while re-holstering is your finger on the trigger.


That is A cause. I have personally narrowly avoided a racing stripe down my leg because of a flashlight lanyard that ended up in my holster. In the dark, with only fractions of a pound of pressure left before the big boom, I noticed that something didn't feel right with the slow and deliberate reholstering procedure I was using with my striker-fired pistol with the relatively short, light trigger pull. By that point I'd had several hundred hours of training and I barely managed to catch it in time and correct it before I shot myself. I developed that slow, deliberate holstering procedure because I'd seen examples of other people who had reholstered really quickly and managed to shoot themselves in the process. The one that stuck out most in my mind was an officer who ended up with a big bite out of his rump because he reholstered his .40 caliber Glock pistol in his departmentally-mandated plainclothes holster, and the thumbsnap worked its way into the trigger guard of the weapon. He had to reholster in a hurry because one of the other guys in his unit had to go hands on with a suspect. Had to get involved in a hurry, you see. Had to reholster fast...so he did.

...and then he was on the ground with a gunshot wound trying to figure out what the hell just happened to him, utterly useless to the other officer who was in need of assistance. Isn't the first rule for first responders something about how becoming a casualty yourself doesn't really help solve the problem?

There is no situation in which you need to reholster quickly that is going to be significantly improved if you shoot yourself. This should lead to choices in gear that minimize potential obstructions into the holster and handling procedures which minimize the chances of you doing so. To quote someone wiser than me, the goal is to keep the goal the goal. The goal of reholstering a gun in a hurry is to enable you to deal with a problem. Getting shot doesn't help you deal with the problem...and the things necessary to keep you from getting shot don't take forever to actually do, so do them.



Not because you are holstering. You can still shoot yourself if you look at the holster .... and have your finger on the trigger.


Yes, you can. But answer me this:

Are you more likely to notice a significant safety risk by shoving a gun blindly into the holster, or if you actually take a fraction of a second to look at what in blue heck you're doing? Safety isn't about whether or not it's possible to screw something up...it's about adopting procedures and practices which minimize the chances that a single failure will result in a tragic condition.



Also, are you really going to be able to see your holster or an obstruction at night? Wearing a gas mask? How about when you've been in a fight? If not, it may not be a good technique to teach.


...so because there may be some occasions where you cannot visually check the status of your holster, is it wise to completely forgo the check altogether and leave off any potential benefit to safety that could be had in those other situations where you can?



Again, there are numerous times and scenarios I have personally experienced and trained in where re-holstering quickly is important.


You seem to be operating under the idea that reholstering in an efficient and safe manner cannot be done in a timely fashion. That idea is incorrect.



Regardless, he tries to holster his pistol and looks at his holster because it won't go in.

...because he missed it the first couple of times. How much time do you think the officer dedicated to reholstering in his duty rig? Some of us have spent dozens of hours just working on our reholstering techniques and thinking through the possibilities because we're interested in not blowing a hole in ourselves.

Dr. No
05-07-2012, 10:13 AM
You speak as if being "safety conscious" is a binary condition of the human mind...as if people either are, or are not, "safety conscious". In reality human beings operate in a spectrum. There are times when human beings are very safety conscious, and there are times where the exact same human being under different circumstances is not "safety conscious". Therefore breeding a practice which requires that you must be "safety conscious" to avoid disaster is, for lack of a better term, stupid. The number of people who have managed to launch a round while attempting to reholster seems to speak to the fact that whether someone is a clueless noob, a trained Law Enforcement Professional, or even a grand-master level competitive shooter, it's possible for people to have not "safety conscious" moments and launch a bullet.

The "cause" is that human beings are human. Through casual inattention bred by familiarity or under stress human beings can perform acts they've performed dozens/hundreds/thousands of times before, screw it up, and in the process kill or injure themselves.


As a person who has had a ND, I completely agree with you except for one point. "Therefore breeding a practice which requires that you must be "safety conscious" to avoid disaster is, for lack of a better term, stupid. " Do we run with firearms? Do we wave guns around other operators as we enter a structure? Do we discharge firearms in a CQB scenerio all the way to 1' in front of our partner's muzzle? All of these scenarios are incredibly dangerous and have the potential for the mother of all fuckups to occur very quickly. We do them because we have to in order to operate in our dangerous environment.... and the only way we can do these "safely" is to be "safety conscious". Those who train hard and are professional about their actions tend to excel in these environments - those who are careless with their trigger finger, muzzle, gear, etc ... they tend to be pushed out. Hopefully before something bad happens.

I completely agree that even highly trained people can screw up. I don't think that the "potential" for error should be a reason to throw out a valid technique.



That is A cause. I have personally narrowly avoided a racing stripe down my leg because of a flashlight lanyard that ended up in my holster. In the dark, with only fractions of a pound of pressure left before the big boom, I noticed that something didn't feel right with the slow and deliberate reholstering procedure I was using with my striker-fired pistol with the relatively short, light trigger pull. By that point I'd had several hundred hours of training and I barely managed to catch it in time and correct it before I shot myself. I developed that slow, deliberate holstering procedure because I'd seen examples of other people who had reholstered really quickly and managed to shoot themselves in the process.


Do you always draw your pistol very slowly and deliberately in order to ensure that there are no obstructions in the way of your muzzle when you present it to the target? I doubt it ... unless the situation calls for it. That's my whole argument for this "technique" ... there are times when it is very necessary (see video) and times when it is not.

Your ND was prevented by your skill, training, calmness, and awareness. If you were a green boot rookie and the instructors whole goal was to freak you out, it may have been different. Again, your level of training has bred proficiency. Not only in your technique, but you have driven things like the draw, reholstering, trigger manipulation, etc - into your subconscious skill set. This allows your mind to focus on other things in your environment that you would not normally be able to pay attention to --- like the fact that something felt "weird" and you should check on it.

I completely agree that in a non-exigent environment, the practice should be to slowly reholster the weapon safely. Whether that is looking at the holster or not, it is a valid technique. I am never in a hurry to put my pistol away in a scenario where I was scared enough to take it out in the first place....



The one that stuck out most in my mind was an officer who ended up with a big bite out of his rump because he reholstered his .40 caliber Glock pistol in his departmentally-mandated plainclothes holster, and the thumbsnap worked its way into the trigger guard of the weapon. He had to reholster in a hurry because one of the other guys in his unit had to go hands on with a suspect. Had to get involved in a hurry, you see. Had to reholster fast...so he did.

...and then he was on the ground with a gunshot wound trying to figure out what the hell just happened to him, utterly useless to the other officer who was in need of assistance. Isn't the first rule for first responders something about how becoming a casualty yourself doesn't really help solve the problem?

There is no situation in which you need to reholster quickly that is going to be significantly improved if you shoot yourself. This should lead to choices in gear that minimize potential obstructions into the holster and handling procedures which minimize the chances of you doing so. To quote someone wiser than me, the goal is to keep the goal the goal. The goal of reholstering a gun in a hurry is to enable you to deal with a problem. Getting shot doesn't help you deal with the problem...and the things necessary to keep you from getting shot don't take forever to actually do, so do them.


I agree with you on all counts here. My solution to that officer in point would be - that rig is not one that you can re-holster the weapon safely one handed. I would guess it was a floppy leather belt rig, much like most of our Detectives wear.... and I can see exactly how that ND would happen. You simply cannot re-holster a gun in that rig without A) pulling the snap away to clear the entrance or B) pointing the muzzle at your body and using it as a shovel to "dig" the holster open. A) sucks because you point the gun at your hand as you holster. B) sucks because you point the muzzle at your body. The real answer is that holster sucks ..... and we all know that gear choices have a lot to do with these "problems" (read: Serpa)




Are you more likely to notice a significant safety risk by shoving a gun blindly into the holster, or if you actually take a fraction of a second to look at what in blue heck you're doing? Safety isn't about whether or not it's possible to screw something up...it's about adopting procedures and practices which minimize the chances that a single failure will result in a tragic condition.


I agree. Which is more important, officer safety from the suspect or from himself? Take our video ... Do you think it's more important for that officer to get the gun in the holster or keep his eyes on the giant dude with the club? The officer doesn't shoot himself but comes very close to getting brained with a construction tool. His partner shooting the mug was the only thing that seemed to prevent the latter....



...so because there may be some occasions where you cannot visually check the status of your holster, is it wise to completely forgo the check altogether and leave off any potential benefit to safety that could be had in those other situations where you can?


I have never said that. In fact, I have argued that reholstering quickly IS a valid technique in some scenarios. Just as re-holstering slowly is a valid one in others....



You seem to be operating under the idea that reholstering in an efficient and safe manner cannot be done in a timely fashion. That idea is incorrect.


I would disagree. Thousands of cops and regular shooters do it every day. It is when things get 'exciting' that it introduces a 'oh shit' factor. I have done it, personally, hundreds of times on duty, and do not have any scars on my back side. I believe you also fall into that category...




...because he missed it the first couple of times. How much time do you think the officer dedicated to reholstering in his duty rig? Some of us have spent dozens of hours just working on our reholstering techniques and thinking through the possibilities because we're interested in not blowing a hole in ourselves.

I would guess he has practiced it very little. The technique I teach to my students is the exact same way as the draw, just in reverse. Orient the pistol on your pectoral muzzle pointed to the target. Roll the muzzle down, pointed at the holster, and index your finger and direct the pistol straight into the holster. It does not "slam" into the rig, but rather when you have your index correct it slides straight in with no fuss or muss. There is no special technique, no magic, no ... anything. It's exactly what you already know. You can use this same technique in a "slow" fashion by looking at the holster before you lower the pistol into the holster.

Where is the problem ?

azant
05-07-2012, 10:19 AM
One should never make a first post in a thread like this, but I hope that I can interject something that might help explain this LE speed reholster thing.

I look at my holster more often than not when reholstering in training. I often look at it when reholstering on the street. However, I believe that law enforcement officers engaged in uniformed patrol functions must be able to holster quickly and without looking. I'll give you a couple of examples from my limited experience.

Once upon a time I found myself on a balcony with a guy with a framing hammer. Having heard all of the stories of the paperwork involved in using deadly force, I decided to put on my superman cape and disarm the guy by hand. Did I mention he was in toxic psychosis from to much meth? This was before we had tasers. As I holstered my pistol, he attacked by swinging that hammer with both hands at my head. Had I been looking at my holster......you get the picture. I deflected it down where it bent a spare 1911 magazine and broke a rib through the body armor. I should have shot him, in fact I should have shot him from the ground and never gotten on that balcony. Sometimes we go places others wouldn't go because we are paid to, and we think "we got this". It could be youth, machismo, or stupidity, but it seems to be part of the job.

Another example would be finding 2 burglars running away from a convenience store. I confronted them at gun point because it was dark, there were two of them, and I didn't know how many guns, knives, and crowbars they might have. They decided to run, but circumstances had them running at me to get away. One guy bumped his buddy and moved him a little too close to me, so we went to the ground. I was on top on my knees and he was on his belly trying to swim out from under me. My flashlight was underneath the guy. It was so dark that I couldn't see my holster if I wanted to and I really needed to get the gun put away so I could handcuff this guy. I could see his white hands against the dark ground and clothing, but not much else.

These are two anecdotes of many. Some of these situations are caused by decisions made earlier in the event. Some may say those were poor decisions. Others may shrug and say that is just the way it happens sometimes. I can say there were things in both instances I could have done better and there are a lot of important details left out of those anecdotes. The facts are that we end up in those places sometimes.

I advocate holstering safely after a hard break when training on the range. The officers should look at the gun going into the holster early in the learning process and later move to not looking sometimes. I also think that defensive tactics, force on force, and simulator training should address the reholstering issue with simulated weapons not capable of poking holes in you.

For cops, it isn't just a matter of what is safest, but also what may be necessary. Yes, if you do it wrong it could be real bad and that shows a need for training. There are a lot of things we have to do that aren't safe. We minimize as many as we can, but in the end you deal with the situation that you get sent to in the best manner you can.

Experience is knowledge gained the hard way and opinions are often framed off of that experience even though it can be limited, like mine. My expereince on the street says reholstering quickly is necessary and I haven't seen any accidents on our range to say it is a problem. I do readily acknowledge that it is relatively unsafe and can lead to problems, but that doesn't make it any less necessary.

This is a great forum with a lot of very knowledgeable people. I have lurked and learned here since it came online. I do not mean for this to be argumentative because both sides of the issue have very valuable points.

Best

TGS
05-07-2012, 10:26 AM
Before you read any more, please revisit this statement I made:

Reholstering a SFA without looking negates safety. This is not debatable. It may be necessary to do such, but equating that it's just as safe is quite absurd.


Out of the ND's you've seen while holstering, what is the leading cause of them? I would hazard a guess it's finger on the trigger. The minority reason would be things like - grass/sticks/dirt/gear in the way of the holster, the retention hood popped up, snap getting in the way, etc. Again, if there is an obstruction IN the holster, the gun shouldn't go in correctly - this still won't cause it to discharge unless the trigger is actually pulled. Gear hanging up on the trigger I would say is the 20%, while finger on the trigger is the 80.

I'm not arguing percentages, and it's completely irrelevant to what I wrote to begin with. Still, if you're indexing your finger as you've noted is important, then that 20% of your problems is now 100% of your problems that you can expect to encounter when holstering a weapon. It's funny how percentages work out like that.

This statement in particular is contradictory:


Again, if there is an obstruction IN the holster, the gun shouldn't go in correctly - this still won't cause it to discharge unless the trigger is actually pulled. Gear hanging up on the trigger I would say is the 20%, while finger on the trigger is the 80.

You can't argue that foreign objects won't pull the trigger, and then turn around and say it's 20% of the problem with triggers being pulled on holstering.

Let's use your figures; If 20% of the problem is caused by foreign objects, then your only defenses universal to all guns for that 20% is to 1) holster slowly enough to react against trigger gnomes and 2) look at your holster. Obviously, there's a huge safety margin created if you can safe a weapon, or thumb the hammer. However, indexing your trigger finger isn't going to do jack squat for 20% of your problems.

"Focusing on safety and why it is important, at ALL times" and slamming your gun home without looking is an oxymoron. Both can not be happening at the same time. Being "safety conscience" doesn't mean anything unless you're actually taking tangible steps to create safety nets. The trigger finger is only one that needs to be addressed, and is certainly not the only one.


One of my street partners put a 12ga slug through the floor of a trailer home when he transitioned from his shotgun to a taser without putting it on safe. When he slung the shotgun it hung up on his taser holster and discharged. Would he have prevented that by looking at where he was slinging the shotgun, or by activating the safety and/or controlling the gun as it was slung? Not that this is the same as putting a pistol away, but it goes back to the "focusing on safety and why it is important, at ALL times, will prevent these kinds of accidents".

And what exactly do you think "focusing on safety" means? As you wrote, it's taking tangible steps to create a safety net....in this case of the shotgun, activating the safety and controlling the weapon.

Now what's that with a pistol? Indexing the finger off the trigger? Yes......that's one. I already addressed the others and why they're relevant in my previous post.


You are a trainer, and you are an experienced shooter. How often do you look at your holster? Do you consider yourself unsafe when you do not do so?

I'm not a trainer.....never claimed to be.

I carry AIWB with a hammered weapon. When I holster, my thumb is on the hammer and my finger is indexed on the top portion of the slide release lever. I usually don't look at the holster, as I wear clothing and gear that has no tactical doo-dads. Thus, I rarely look at the holster. I only look at the holster if my weapon isn't sliding in without effort...if the angle has to be adjusted, or god forbid I feel the resistance against the hammer as I holster, I look. I also don't speed reholster, and allow myself time to respond to whatever problem might arise.

Thus, given the thumbed hammer which gives tactile feedback on trigger movement as well as keeping anything from pulling the trigger to begin with, and not speed reholstering, I do not consider it unsafe. If I didn't have a hammered weapon, I'd be looking a lot more.


If you are disciplined in your trigger finger location, you have your gear set up correctly so your path to/from the holster is unencumbered, and nothing is able to inject itself into your trigger guard, what is unsafe about putting the pistol in the holster as fast as it came out?

facepalm.


Wouldn't this be a perfect example for a time when there is a need to quickly re-holster while keeping eyes on the threat? If he was alone, that scene could have turned out very very different.

Yeah, except for the fact that we can see he wasn't able to get the gun in the holster without looking at it. So who knows what could have happened if he just slammed it in there. As you noted, this situation could have turned out bad for him if he didn't have backup.....I'm not denying that. If he didn't look, this situation also may have ended up with a self-inflicted wound.

Finally, let me restate this again, because it seems like this statement was completely lost on you in my previous post, and it's quite important to the message I'm trying to convey:

Reholstering a SFA without looking negates safety. This is not debatable. It may be necessary to do such, but equating that it's just as safe is quite absurd.

TGS
05-07-2012, 10:29 AM
One should never make a first post in a thread like this, but I hope that I can interject something that might help explain this LE speed reholster thing.

I look at my holster more often than not when reholstering in training. I often look at it when reholstering on the street. However, I believe that law enforcement officers engaged in uniformed patrol functions must be able to holster quickly and without looking. I'll give you a couple of examples from my limited experience.

Once upon a time I found myself on a balcony with a guy with a framing hammer. Having heard all of the stories of the paperwork involved in using deadly force, I decided to put on my superman cape and disarm the guy by hand. Did I mention he was in toxic psychosis from to much meth? This was before we had tasers. As I holstered my pistol, he attacked by swinging that hammer with both hands at my head. Had I been looking at my holster......you get the picture. I deflected it down where it bent a spare 1911 magazine and broke a rib through the body armor. I should have shot him, in fact I should have shot him from the ground and never gotten on that balcony. Sometimes we go places others wouldn't go because we are paid to, and we think "we got this". It could be youth, machismo, or stupidity, but it seems to be part of the job.

Another example would be finding 2 burglars running away from a convenience store. I confronted them at gun point because it was dark, there were two of them, and I didn't know how many guns, knives, and crowbars they might have. They decided to run, but circumstances had them running at me to get away. One guy bumped his buddy and moved him a little too close to me, so we went to the ground. I was on top on my knees and he was on his belly trying to swim out from under me. My flashlight was underneath the guy. It was so dark that I couldn't see my holster if I wanted to and I really needed to get the gun put away so I could handcuff this guy. I could see his white hands against the dark ground and clothing, but not much else.

These are two anecdotes of many. Some of these situations are caused by decisions made earlier in the event. Some may say those were poor decisions. Others may shrug and say that is just the way it happens sometimes. I can say there were things in both instances I could have done better and there are a lot of important details left out of those anecdotes. The facts are that we end up in those places sometimes.

I advocate holstering safely after a hard break when training on the range. The officers should look at the gun going into the holster early in the learning process and later move to not looking sometimes. I also think that defensive tactics, force on force, and simulator training should address the reholstering issue with simulated weapons not capable of poking holes in you.

For cops, it isn't just a matter of what is safest, but also what may be necessary. Yes, if you do it wrong it could be real bad and that shows a need for training. There are a lot of things we have to do that aren't safe. We minimize as many as we can, but in the end you deal with the situation that you get sent to in the best manner you can.

Experience is knowledge gained the hard way and opinions are often framed off of that experience even though it can be limited, like mine. My expereince on the street says reholstering quickly is necessary and I haven't seen any accidents on our range to say it is a problem. I do readily acknowledge that it is relatively unsafe and can lead to problems, but that doesn't make it any less necessary.

This is a great forum with a lot of very knowledgeable people. I have lurked and learned here since it came online. I do not mean for this to be argumentative because both sides of the issue have very valuable points.

Best

Precisely my thoughts. Well articulated.

Good first post! ;)

Dr. No
05-07-2012, 12:37 PM
Before you read any more, please revisit this statement I made:

Reholstering a SFA without looking negates safety. This is not debatable. It may be necessary to do such, but equating that it's just as safe is quite absurd.

Finally, let me restate this again, because it seems like this statement was completely lost on you in my previous post, and it's quite important to the message I'm trying to convey:

Reholstering a SFA without looking negates safety. This is not debatable. It may be necessary to do such, but equating that it's just as safe is quite absurd.

Since you are caught up in the semantics of what I said, I'll make you happy. Holstering quickly without looking isn't safe.

Neither is police work. Or carrying a gun.

Not teaching something just because it "isn't safe" ... even though it has a valid tactical use .... is absurd.

There are ways to mitigate this risk. You yourself do so by thumbing the hammer. Todd has a great tool for Glocks that accomplishes the same thing. Clearing gear from your path to your holster, trigger finger index, etc ... all examples of mitigating the risk of this task. We should strive to mitigate and eliminate the risk of shooting ourselves as much as possible, because getting shot hurts.

Agreed?

Dr. No
05-07-2012, 12:39 PM
I advocate holstering safely after a hard break when training on the range. The officers should look at the gun going into the holster early in the learning process and later move to not looking sometimes. I also think that defensive tactics, force on force, and simulator training should address the reholstering issue with simulated weapons not capable of poking holes in you.

For cops, it isn't just a matter of what is safest, but also what may be necessary. Yes, if you do it wrong it could be real bad and that shows a need for training. There are a lot of things we have to do that aren't safe. We minimize as many as we can, but in the end you deal with the situation that you get sent to in the best manner you can.

Experience is knowledge gained the hard way and opinions are often framed off of that experience even though it can be limited, like mine. My expereince on the street says reholstering quickly is necessary and I haven't seen any accidents on our range to say it is a problem. I do readily acknowledge that it is relatively unsafe and can lead to problems, but that doesn't make it any less necessary.

This is a great forum with a lot of very knowledgeable people. I have lurked and learned here since it came online. I do not mean for this to be argumentative because both sides of the issue have very valuable points.

Best

I completely agree with everything you posted here, and I'm sure most guys with enough time on the street will be able to relate stories similar to ours.

I think you made a great first post, and weren't argumentative in the least! :)

KevH
05-07-2012, 01:34 PM
Well, this has started some discussion.

I agree with Dr. No that there are some times in the LE world you have to re-holster fast. I’ve been there and I get it. I don’t think that means that in training we should be practicing shoving are guns back in the holster as quickly as possible blindly.

When I started it was mainly Sigs, Berettas and 3rd Gen S&W’s and Safariland 070 holsters. It was easy and necessary to some degree to practice the re-holster and do it at speed since the gun had to be de-cocked and the holster had to be snapped back in. Because of the hammer and how we trained (thumb pressing hammer) it was also inherently safer.

Since the majority of LE is now using striker fired guns and 6280, Raptor or ALS holsters the game is now quite different. If you index the holster with a quick glance the re-holster is mechanically much faster just due to the design of the holster. Done at speed and blindly it is NOT SAFER.

Yes, indexing your finger out of the triggerguard helps. But how much other crap is present on a belt or on a rifle sling that can get in the way? How many lanyards and doo-hickies are your guys running around with? If they’re anything like folks where I’m at that means quite a few.

Todd in his AFHF class I took a couple years ago talked about the drawstring tabs on jackets getting in the trigger guard. I had never really given this much thought until then. Fast-forward to about six months ago one of our detectives experienced just that. Inserting M&P into ALS concealment holster, North Face drawstring tab in trigger guard and POP…the round hit pavement, fragmented and a chunk went right into the leg of the guy on the line next to him.

With all the superfluous crap LE now are wearing on their belt mixed with striker fired guns and mechanically faster holsters, I think we honestly need to evaluate how we are training people to re-holster their guns. I love the command “reluctantly re-holster.” I agree that in the real world we need to get holstered to transition or go hands on sometimes, but smooth truly is fast. We need to do it safely.

KevH
05-07-2012, 01:41 PM
...and with regards to pointing guns at people you cannot shoot.

I think it's already been covered, but if you are an LE trainer and are not familiar with Force Science Institute and their work you should be.

Watch this video:
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/march-2010/daily-planet---march-11-2010/#clip275641

Start at about 1 minute in

BaiHu
05-07-2012, 02:09 PM
...and with regards to pointing guns at people you cannot shoot.

I think it's already been covered, but if you are an LE trainer and are not familiar with Force Science Institute and their work you should be.

Watch this video:
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/march-2010/daily-planet---march-11-2010/#clip275641

Start at about 1 minute in

Nice video! It raises some really tough questions about watching body mechanics of an attacker and how the general public just doesn't understand the stress that LE goes through daily. Meaning, it is always easy to say with hindsight that a LEO was too tough on someone who ends up being innocent.

steve
05-07-2012, 07:02 PM
Okay, so putting aside that violating the four rules seems to be a common thing among LEOs (that doesn't seem to concern anyone else), and looking at it purely from an on-topic perspective:

Perhaps cops would be speed-reholstering less often if they weren't getting their guns out with the knowlege that they would not be shooting. I mean, everyone makes a big deal when cops ND because they've cocked their DA/SA guns before making a clear decision to shoot; isn't this as much of a training failure?

Go on a ride-along with your local agency; not a television ride-along and you won't spew such nonsense.

ToddG
05-07-2012, 08:16 PM
Did I mention he was in toxic psychosis from too much meth?

azant, thanks for the informative post. Still, I had to take a break after reading the above line because my abdominal muscles simply aren't strong enough to withstand that much laughing. :cool:

I'm going to throw this out there for discussion with the caveat -- obvious, hopefully -- that I've never been a cop or had to arrest someone.

If you are holstering your pistol under circumstances where a sub-second glance or simply a less rushed movement might put you in grave danger from the person you're dealing with, is it time to holster? Your example of going hands on with a hammer-wielding meth head comes to mind.

Or look at it another way: Even if you holster slowly, you're still just as fast once the gun is away. And until that point, you still have a gun in your hand.

The difference between holstering at a safe, slow speed with a hard break and holstering fast without a hard break is probably about one second.

edited to add: the side discussion about whether/when LE should point guns at people is officially ended effective immediately. If someone wants to start a separate thread on the subject and that thread can remain civil with intelligent debate, that will be fine.

Dr. No
05-07-2012, 08:39 PM
If you are holstering your pistol under circumstances where a sub-second glance or simply a less rushed movement might put you in grave danger from the person you're dealing with, is it time to holster? Your example of going hands on with a hammer-wielding meth head comes to mind.

Or look at it another way: Even if you holster slowly, you're still just as fast once the gun is away. And until that point, you still have a gun in your hand.

The difference between holstering at a safe, slow speed with a hard break and holstering fast without a hard break is probably about one second.


I think what we cops have experienced is that we are pointing guns at people and need to get the gun secured immediately so we can go hands on because we CANNOT shoot the person. I honestly can't tell you how many times I've pointed a gun at someone and it doesn't even phase them. Usually that is a pretty good sign you are about to get into a fight with someone who's been around the block or isn't all there in their head...

I'd rather have the gun secured in the holster so that we're not fighting over the gun, so it needs to go in the holster "quickly". The less time I give the bad guy to think, the more likely I'm able to get in front of his OODA loop and successfully take him into custody before he has a chance to do something stupid.

In *those particular scenarios* I believe it is a very valid technique to have in the tool bag.

David Armstrong
05-08-2012, 11:56 AM
from ToddG:
If you are holstering your pistol under circumstances where a sub-second glance or simply a less rushed movement might put you in grave danger from the person you're dealing with, is it time to holster? Your example of going hands on with a hammer-wielding meth head comes to mind.
That is sort of my perspective. I put in a fair amount of street time, both in the bag and plainclothes, and I can't think of a time where I felt that holstering at an unsafe speed was more important than not holstering at an unsafe speed.

azant
05-08-2012, 01:31 PM
Todd, your point is extremely valid ref the incident with the guy with the hammer. As we had discussed briefly in College Station, I think that sometimes officers (like me) get themselves into situations that make reholstering quickly necesary. A little less testosterone and adrenaline induced stupidity ("Oh, that looks like fun....watch this!") can allow officers to stand off and holster most often in the manner you mentioned. As I said before, there is a lot more info to go with that scenario.


I think what we cops have experienced is that we are pointing guns at people and need to get the gun secured immediately so we can go hands on because we CANNOT shoot the person. I honestly can't tell you how many times I've pointed a gun at someone and it doesn't even phase them. .

Dr No's last post above hits on what has happened to me most often. Suspect's who are unarmed, uncompliant, and unimpressed with your blaster. I have had to explain in court to a jury of their peers that the muzzle strike is not "pistol whipping". Sometimes it wouldn't be a big deal, in other situations it would. The calculated risk of holstering without looking is just that. "Do I want to get hit first in this fight or do I want to maybe shoot myself in the leg. Well, I've done this holstering thing a lot of times and I haven't shot myself in the leg yet, but I have been hit a few times........"

I also think that different approaches to police work can often negate the need for the reholstering quickly. However, I don't think those different approaches are better, nor are they necessarily worse.

If I take this guy down now, will that keep the crowd from joining in? If I back up will that embolden him? If I go forward will he think twice? Usually one of those kind of choices leads to that other choice.

Mr Armstrong also has a lot of experience and has a contrasting viewpoint. That means the need is not absolute.

Ideally, we should never reholster without looking. Jamming the gun in the holster quickly and without looking is unsafe. Realistically, in my opinion we should train for it safely (sims, red guns, dry, etc) because it may be necessary on the street.

Because it is good for me on the street should it be good for the range? Uh, no. We also don't have backstops on the street, but I don't think we should pick a convenient parking lot to blast a few practice and qualification rounds downrange into the neighborhood. We train as close to how we fight as we safely can.

"Hard break" and "holster reluctantly" are good training.


Best

ford.304
05-08-2012, 02:11 PM
I'm not a police officer nor a firearms instructor, but just from a logical standpoint Azant's opinion seems about right to me. Making quick reholstering a practiced movement that *can* be done sounds like it could be useful to an officer. Making it an unconscious movement that is done regularly on the range sounds like a horrible idea. Even when you need to do it quickly, it should be a movement that you chose deliberately to do, knowing the risks.

In the situations mentioned, the issue is not "oh no I need to have my gun holstered *now*", it's "once I have decided to holster, I need to finish the action quickly without taking my eyes off of my opponent."

There are not a lot of situations where your stress reaction needs to be "holster quickly."

TAZ
05-09-2012, 05:34 PM
IMO, as much as we hate to admit it the need for a uniformed officer to quickly holster a weapon is there. To say that you will never need to do so is akin to saying that you will never need to defend yourself. Just not realistic. With that said the act of reholstering for a uniformed cop must be safe and quick. In that order. If you're about to go hands on with a threat, doing so with a hole in your leg or ass is going to put you at a severe disadvantage, so get it done safe and quick so you can deal with the threat in one piece. This means practice till you're blue in the face and can do it in your sleep. This does NOT mean that it should be routine to do so if time and distance allow for a safer way to do it. If the reason for accepting a higher level or risk (gotta get it holstered or this guy is gonna kick my ass so I'm willing to take the risk of an ND) is not there (partner has threat under control, I'm on the range...) why would one choose to accept the higher risk?

For the guys carrying concealed speed reholstering is just a bad idea. There are way too many things that can get into a trigger guard than fingers and slamming a SFP home is asking for trouble. I have had the zipper pull of my coat get into the trigger of my Glock and had I not been going retarded slow on the reholster I never would have had time to react to the gun feeling different.