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BaiHu
05-05-2012, 03:12 PM
DISCLAIMER: Perhaps my search-fu is no good, but I didn't find anything directly discussing this topic via google or PF search queue, so forgive me in advance if this has been discussed.

Just got done shooting with TGS and we were talking about recoil control/management and I wanted to make sure I understood this correctly.

1. There are 2 schools of thought: fight it vs let it be, correct?
2. Once under each of these camps, accelerating/decelerating your shots open both of these schools to a new level scrutiny for me.

Let me break down my questions/observations:

1. If I am slow firing, it makes no sense for me to fight recoil, b/c it's a waste of energy, no?
2. If I am firing quickly, is there a benefit to trying to keep the muzzle on target by fighting it?
3. If I am trying to fire multiple shots at speed and I just let gravity take control, is it slower?
4. If it makes sense for me not to fight it during slow fire, then shouldn't I manage recoil the same way during 'rapid' fire?

Perhaps I am answering my own question, but 'does what go up come down at the same speed'? According to this anecdote about bullets, it's not quite true http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=2101, but I'm not talking about a great distance and a bullet, I'm discussing the few inches a muzzle may rise during a shot.

If my thoughts above are accurate, then the answer should be to let gravity take place and the front sight's return will be just as fast as it was when it left the rear notch.

Do I have this correct?

TGS
05-05-2012, 03:22 PM
1. There are 2 schools of thought: fight it vs let it be, correct?

This is sort of ambiguous sounding.....what I was trying to explain is that flinching is not proper recoil control, and if a shooter can't try to manage their recoil without causing a flinch/anticipation, then they're better off not trying to manage recoil until that anticipation is fixed.

Recoil control is not an active mechanism.....i.e., you're not doing something each shot to try and control the recoil.....which is what people are doing who develop anticipation by trying to control recoil (nudging the muzzle down preemptively, for instance)

Recoil control is a passive function of the grip on the weapon, as influenced by grip strength, grip technique, and stance.

Does that help clear it up? I was thoroughly confused by everything after 1), so forgive me that I can't comment further. Like I said earlier, it's a siesta day and baby (me) hasn't gotten his siesta. :p

DonovanM
05-05-2012, 03:27 PM
I think that unless you have Bob Vogel's grip strength, fighting the recoil - or timing the gun as I like to think of it - is pretty much a prerequisite to shooting fast and accurately. But to me it's not really fighting the recoil, as all I'm trying to do is introduce a counteracting movement to the gun to get the sights to return to the same spot. I'm letting the gun recoil, but timing it so that it returns. It's fairly minimal as I try to let my grip do most of the work.

Run some ball and dummy drills shooting at speed at an 8" circle at 7yds. I think you'll see yourself doing the same thing. It happens without any conscious input from me.

The difference between timing the gun and a flinch is like 1/100th of a second before/after ignition.

TGS
05-05-2012, 03:37 PM
I think that unless you have Bob Vogel's grip strength, fighting the recoil - or timing the gun as I like to think of it - is pretty much a prerequisite to shooting fast and accurately. But to me it's not really fighting the recoil, as all I'm trying to do is introduce a counteracting movement to the gun to get the sights to return to the same spot. I'm letting the gun recoil, but timing it so that it returns. It's fairly minimal as I try to let my grip do most of the work.

Run some ball and dummy drills shooting at speed at an 8" circle at 7yds. I think you'll see yourself doing the same thing. It happens without any conscious input from me.

The difference between timing the gun and a flinch is like 1/100th of a second before/after ignition.

I would 100% disagree, but I'm interested in hearing further about this. I'm definitely not the end-all be all of knowledge, so this should be a good conversation and maybe I'll learn something.

jetfire
05-05-2012, 03:42 PM
The biggest change in my recoil management happened when I stopped worrying about controlling recoil with my grip and started focusing on controlling recoil with the muscles of my chest and upper arms. All of a sudden the gun just sort of started coming right back to where it started. Squeeze with your arms together with your pecs, delts, and lats - don't crush it with your grip. I'm not saying that grip strength isn't important, because it is - just as important as some people think it is.

TGS
05-05-2012, 03:48 PM
The biggest change in my recoil management happened when I stopped worrying about controlling recoil with my grip and started focusing on controlling recoil with the muscles of my chest and upper arms. All of a sudden the gun just sort of started coming right back to where it started. Squeeze with your arms together with your pecs, delts, and lats - don't crush it with your grip. I'm not saying that grip strength isn't important, because it is - just as important as some people think it is.

Using your chest is just another way of increasing the strength of your grip, just using different muscles to do so than people who have a crush grip. It's still increasing your grip of the weapon.....just more efficiently.

Still, I think what BaiHu is asking about is trying to do something during the shot in order to control recoil, vs letting recoil control be a function determined by your grip/technique. So, from reading your comment, I'm guessing your of the mindset that it's the latter?

ToddG
05-05-2012, 04:08 PM
The gun doesn't recoil enough to matter. It's the shooter's ability to see and act upon what the gun is doing that determines speed. If you point your finger at the light switch across the room and someone slaps your arm, you'll naturally bring your finger right back into alignment almost instantly if you're still focused on pointing at the light switch. You're controlling your arm and hand with your eyes, basically.

A good grip and a good stance are all you should need to "fight" recoil. From there on out, let it happen. Trying to fight it consciously is what leads to anticipation and low shots.

BaiHu
05-05-2012, 04:49 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the clarifications and insights everyone.

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rsa-otc
05-05-2012, 05:11 PM
No surprise. I really can't add anything more to what Todd said. Most people miss because they try to over control/muscle the gun during recoil, either helping it along or holding it down.

joshs
05-05-2012, 06:10 PM
I would 100% disagree, but I'm interested in hearing further about this. I'm definitely not the end-all be all of knowledge, so this should be a good conversation and maybe I'll learn something.

Have you tried doing something like a Bill Drill with a Ball and Dummy mag? Most people time the gun subconsciously and don't even realize that they are doing it. You have to provide some "push" in order to get the gun on target no matter how hard you grip the gun. If the gun lifts at all in recoil, gripping it harder isn't going to bring it back on target.

BaiHu
05-05-2012, 07:37 PM
That's basically what TGS was having me do this weekend. Thanks.

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TGS
05-05-2012, 07:38 PM
Have you tried doing something like a Bill Drill with a Ball and Dummy mag? Most people time the gun subconsciously and don't even realize that they are doing it. You have to provide some "push" in order to get the gun on target no matter how hard you grip the gun. If the gun lifts at all in recoil, gripping it harder isn't going to bring it back on target.

Yes, but next weekend I'll give it a go again.

When I do ball and dummy drills, my idea is to not have any movement of the gun whatsoever when I hit a dummy. Any movement upon pulling the trigger is what I would consider anticipation and is extraneous, deleterious movement to proper shooting technique. Am I incorrect?

A more secure grip won't get the gun on target quicker, but it will reduce the amount the front sight moves from target. This is the purpose of a grip, and proper product of recoil control that I've learned thus far. Is this incorrect?

DonovanM
05-05-2012, 08:23 PM
Yes, but next weekend I'll give it a go again.

When I do ball and dummy drills, my idea is to not have any movement of the gun whatsoever when I hit a dummy. Any movement upon pulling the trigger is what I would consider anticipation and is extraneous, deleterious movement to proper shooting technique. Am I incorrect?

A more secure grip won't get the gun on target quicker, but it will reduce the amount the front sight moves from target. This is the purpose of a grip, and proper product of recoil control that I've learned thus far. Is this incorrect?

I agree in that any movement leading up to pulling the trigger is bad. But driving the gun down after the shot is fired I would consider timing the recoil. Are we on the same page here? I don't think I explained things very well in my first post.

Don't take my word for it. Watch the 5th shot in the second string at around :55 in this video. Dave's slide stop breaks and somehow the slide closes on an empty chamber. He drives the gun down after the trigger is pressed. This is an extreme example as he's shooting .40 SHO, but illustrates the effect pretty well I think...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBHVfeGVjRg

joshs
05-05-2012, 08:37 PM
A more secure grip won't get the gun on target quicker, but it will reduce the amount the front sight moves from target.

Correct, but some force has to move the gun back on target after it recoils. The closer in time with ignition this force is applied, the faster the sights will return to the target.

ummm
05-05-2012, 10:59 PM
This thread has me completely baffled.


The gun doesn't recoil enough to matter.

I don't know anything about shooting, so this quote is completely over my head.

Why does IPSC reward major power factor over minor if no gun recoils enough to matter? Totally lost :(

guymontag
05-05-2012, 11:41 PM
Interesting thoughts from Dave Re:

http://re-gun.com/2011/04/ball-and-dummy-for-dummies/

'Fighting the recoil' versus 'letting it happen', pre-ignition flinch and post-ignition flinch, timing, idea of the proper use of ball and dummy drills, etc.

Great video DonovanM! I've been researching into this topic recently, mainly on the Enos forum, but I'm glad to see it here.


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DonovanM
05-06-2012, 12:01 AM
Interesting thoughts from Dave Re:

http://re-gun.com/2011/04/ball-and-dummy-for-dummies/

I give up. He explained it perfectly :o

Like I said, run some mag dumps or Bill Drills as fast as you can with a random dummy round in there... it'll let you know exactly what your body is doing to get the gun back on target.

beltjones
05-06-2012, 12:01 AM
This thread has me completely baffled.



I don't know anything about shooting, so this quote is completely over my head.

Why does IPSC reward major power factor over minor if no gun recoils enough to matter? Totally lost :(

If you're just doing, say, a static drill then within reason the recoil doesn't matter much. Case in point, my bill drill times are virtually identical for 9mm and .40, both in the 1.8 second range last I practiced one. I do drive the gun harder in .40 as Donovan mentioned above.

Where higher power factor really makes a difference is in all of the off balance stuff and shooting on the move that you have to do in the practical shooting sports. If you're not squared up behind the gun the higher PF ammo will push you around more, and that will effect your speed and accuracy.

JAD
05-06-2012, 06:38 AM
Post ignition push is something Cooper described, and is the only concept that I originally heard from Cooper with which Rogers takes direct issue in his book. Haven't gotten to that part in Enos' book yet. I need to go re-read Rogers' thoughts on the matter, but I recall that he was adamant.

ToddG
05-06-2012, 07:51 AM
But driving the gun down after the shot is fired I would consider timing the recoil.

We may be saying the same thing in different ways, but I don't like the way you're describing it. To me, "timing" the recoil implies a conscious act. In my experience, when people try to time it, they become more susceptible to anticipation.

I absolutely agree that it's happening, I just think it happens naturally (or develops naturally) and shouldn't be something people try to do.


Why does IPSC reward major power factor over minor if no gun recoils enough to matter? Totally lost :(

Because it was developed by people who thought the .45 was king and the 9mm was for eunuchs. As for the practical difference, just look at the results from the past ten Limited and Single Stack national championships. What percentage of people are shooting Major? When is the last time someone shooting Minor won? The difference in recoil is far less of an impact than the scoring system suggests, thereby giving Major a tremendous advantage.


Post ignition push is something Cooper described, and is the only concept that I originally heard from Cooper with which Rogers takes direct issue in his book. Haven't gotten to that part in Enos' book yet. I need to go re-read Rogers' thoughts on the matter, but I recall that he was adamant.

If I draw and try to fire an empty gun (that I thought was loaded) or have a misfire during a string of rapid fire, my muzzle will dip every single time. Since I know for a fact that I'm not anticipating every shot -- my groups and general performance make that pretty clear -- it's hard for me to imagine that I'm just coincidentally anticipating each time I get a click instead of bang.

JAD
05-06-2012, 08:27 AM
. I need to go re-read Rogers' thoughts on the matter, but I recall that he was adamant.

had a look -- Rogers said that flinch due to |pre| ignition push is 'nonsense' -- he seems to be arguing against the 'mistiming' line of thought. He does not address as far as I can tell how real post ignition push may be.

beltjones
05-06-2012, 08:52 AM
We may be saying the same thing in different ways, but I don't like the way you're describing it. To me, "timing" the recoil implies a conscious act. In my experience, when people try to time it, they become more susceptible to anticipation.

I absolutely agree that it's happening, I just think it happens naturally (or develops naturally) and shouldn't be something people try to do.

Totally agree. It needs to be something you do - and develop the ability to do - over time and over lots and lots of live fire practice.




Because it was developed by people who thought the .45 was king and the 9mm was for eunuchs. As for the practical difference, just look at the results from the past ten Limited and Single Stack national championships. What percentage of people are shooting Major? When is the last time someone shooting Minor won? The difference in recoil is far less of an impact than the scoring system suggests, thereby giving Major a tremendous advantage.

Not really. The real reason for the difference in scoring was not recoil but magazine capacity. Once upon a time IPSC was just the mighty 1911, then it became the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power. They tried to find a way to create parity between the 1911's magazine capacity and the Hi-Power's magazine capacity, and major vs. minor was born. These days the Hi-Power has been legislated out of existence in IPSC, but the only reason one would choose minor over major remains, and that reason is magazine capacity. Extremely rarely someone chooses to shoot Limited Minor in order to get 4 extra rounds in a magazine, and slightly more commonly people choose to shoot Single Stack in minor to get 2 extra rounds by shooting minor PF. Those few extra rounds historically haven't been enough to justify scoring minor, though some high-profile shooters have tried it more than once (BJ Norris shot minor at single stack nationals for a few years before giving in and switching to major). The reason they give when justifying shooting minor is the advantage in magazine capacity, not the reduced recoil impulse.

TGS
05-06-2012, 11:06 AM
To me, "timing" the recoil implies a conscious act. In my experience, when people try to time it, they become more susceptible to anticipation.

I absolutely agree that it's happening, I just think it happens naturally (or develops naturally) and shouldn't be something people try to do.

This pretty well describes what I was thinking.

I just didn't realize that the muzzle will dip from it, because I've never seen it. I don't watch competitions, so I've never seen *insert favorite ninja* display it. In addition, everyone I've ever seen dip the muzzle upon hitting a dummy or FTF also had a tendency of throwing shots.

Does anyone notice that shooters start to display post-ignition push after breaking through a certain plane of split times? So, guys under .xx split times typically display it, but guys over .xx splits typically do not?

beltjones
05-06-2012, 11:39 PM
This pretty well describes what I was thinking.

I just didn't realize that the muzzle will dip from it, because I've never seen it. I don't watch competitions, so I've never seen *insert favorite ninja* display it. In addition, everyone I've ever seen dip the muzzle upon hitting a dummy or FTF also had a tendency of throwing shots.

Does anyone notice that shooters start to display post-ignition push after breaking through a certain plane of split times? So, guys under .xx split times typically display it, but guys over .xx splits typically do not?

For starters I would suggest no foregoing competitions. You can learn a lot from watching and mingling with the best pistol shooters in the world.

As to the second question, I don't think you're thinking of splits the right way. It's not that shooter 1 is a .16 split guy and shooter 2 is a .30 split guy. It's more like when the shot allows for really fast shooting, either shooter would need to drive the gun to get down into .16 second range. As Todd correctly pointed out such "driving" needs to be completely subconscious.

TGS
05-07-2012, 12:01 AM
For starters I would suggest no foregoing competitions. You can learn a lot from watching and mingling with the best pistol shooters in the world.

Obviously, competitions can have some good shooters present that I can learn stuff from, and I never said otherwise nor was it a question. I'm just not interested in competitions. It's a matter of apathy, and not of me actively foregoing competitions for whatever reason. I asked around for competitions in this area, and the one time I was actually interested enough to go, the range had caught on fire and was closed.



As to the second question, I don't think you're thinking of splits the right way. It's not that shooter 1 is a .16 split guy and shooter 2 is a .30 split guy. It's more like when the shot allows for really fast shooting, either shooter would need to drive the gun to get down into .16 second range. As Todd correctly pointed out such "driving" needs to be completely subconscious.

That wasn't what I was trying to address.

I hope I'm able to clarify this.......the question was whether people tend to display it after pushing splits to a certain point. If for instance that point is under .20, then it'd make sense that I've never seen post-ignition pushing because I don't ever shoot sub-.20 splits. I try to limit myself to how fast I can track/align the sights and complete a proper trigger press for the target at hand, and I can't fire that fast yet. Thus, for a given target, I'm guy X at .30 and "he" is guy Z at .16. What I'm thinking is that my sight tracking/alignment and trigger press abilities are the limiting factor in splits, so I'm not even in the realm of where post-ignition pushing would make a difference. That's more of what I'm trying to address.

rsa-otc
05-07-2012, 06:34 AM
I think TGS has a point. At lower skill levels when we are not pushing hyper speed splits of the Leatham's, Sevigney's, Olhasso & Green's. There is a lesser need to aquire a post ignition push. You don't need to drive the gun back to point of aim and can allow the gun to settle back on it's own.

The way I teach my students is that they need a good stance and grip on the gun so the gun will not shift in their hands. The arms should have a relaxed constant tension in them to hold the gun in it's wobble zone on target. Keep that tension constant though out the firing sequence, so that you are neither pushing upward or down to help the gun in it's travels. If you keep that tension constant and your grip prevents the gun shifting in your hands the gun will settle back to approxiamately your original point of aim. Think of your arms as a leaf spring with your gun solidly attached to the end. When the gun fires the spring is going to flex and then return to it's orignial position. Now the stronger the spring, such as someone with greater muscle strength and mass the less flex there will be and the faster you will return to the target. The idea is not to add any extra downward motion or upward motion into the squence of events.

This sequence is only going to get you so far. The spring can only travel at a certain speed. So once you get to a certain point in your progression you are going to need to help the spring along, thus the post ignition push previously discussed with regards to our hyper speed shooters. They are now trying to speed the events along past the springs ability to return on target. These folks have put the time and rounds in to rule out a preignition push and subconsiously train in a post ignition push. We're not talking thousands of rounds; we're talking tens to hundreds of thousands of rounds to develop this timing. And their timing can be thrown off by any of a number of simple things. Look at the trouble Todd's having right now WHO because of pain in the thumb due to the laser grips inter-action with said thumb.

We all need to crawl before we walk, walk before we run and run before kicking in the hyper drive. Everyone is going to travel the path at differant speeds, either because of their size, strength (although I find the more muscle bound the student is the more they try to muscle the gun and develope a pre ignition push), natural ability etc. As with walking and the alike we are going to stumble from time to time skinning our knees, getting up and going on learning something new from each fall and scrape.

Back to TGS's original question, I don't think there is a magic hard core number where the post ignition push needs to come into play. For each person depending on their ability size and strength, that number is going to slide a bit either way on the scale.

ToddG
05-07-2012, 07:55 PM
FWIW, I know I was displaying a post-ignition push more than a decade ago back while I was still just an IDPA SSP Expert. I don't think it has as much to do with the speed of your splits as the amount of practice you've put into rapid multiple hits on a target.

BaiHu
05-07-2012, 08:06 PM
Sounds like I need 500+ rounds/week, where each weekend I just fire at 3 yds to a 5 or 8" circle. Starting off really slow and then slowly working the pace upward??

My slow fire and dry fire skills seem rock solid to me, but anything live at speed starts tripping me up-even if it's the perception of speeding up-meaning I'm not using a timer.

beltjones
05-07-2012, 08:48 PM
We may be saying the same thing in different ways, but I don't like the way you're describing it. To me, "timing" the recoil implies a conscious act. In my experience, when people try to time it, they become more susceptible to anticipation.

I absolutely agree that it's happening, I just think it happens naturally (or develops naturally) and shouldn't be something people try to do.



Because it was developed by people who thought the .45 was king and the 9mm was for eunuchs. As for the practical difference, just look at the results from the past ten Limited and Single Stack national championships. What percentage of people are shooting Major? When is the last time someone shooting Minor won? The difference in recoil is far less of an impact than the scoring system suggests, thereby giving Major a tremendous advantage.



If I draw and try to fire an empty gun (that I thought was loaded) or have a misfire during a string of rapid fire, my muzzle will dip every single time. Since I know for a fact that I'm not anticipating every shot -- my groups and general performance make that pretty clear -- it's hard for me to imagine that I'm just coincidentally anticipating each time I get a click instead of bang.


Sounds like I need 500+ rounds/week, where each weekend I just fire at 3 yds to a 5 or 8" circle. Starting off really slow and then slowly working the pace upward??

My slow fire and dry fire skills seem rock solid to me, but anything live at speed starts tripping me up-even if it's the perception of speeding up-meaning I'm not using a timer.

We all need to practice what we're currently "bad" at. If that means you need to fling lead while watching your sights and pushing up the tempo - then so be it, even if you're not aiming at a target (that's actually a good way to practice). It's not wasting lead if you're learning something and developing new skills, right?

BaiHu
05-08-2012, 01:37 PM
We all need to practice what we're currently "bad" at. If that means you need to fling lead while watching your sights and pushing up the tempo - then so be it, even if you're not aiming at a target (that's actually a good way to practice). It's not wasting lead if you're learning something and developing new skills, right?

My point wasn't one of criticism of 'darnit, now I have to practice', rather 'is this what I should be practicing in order to stop this issue.' Just been hitting a wall lately and I hope it is a wall of resistance of old/bad habits rather than newly acquired bad habits :confused:

beltjones
05-08-2012, 01:49 PM
My point wasn't one of criticism of 'darnit, now I have to practice', rather 'is this what I should be practicing in order to stop this issue.' Just been hitting a wall lately and I hope it is a wall of resistance of old/bad habits rather than newly acquired bad habits :confused:

I didn't read it as "damnit, now I have to practice." I was just saying that if you're hitting a wall with pure speed stuff, practice pure speed stuff.

BaiHu
05-10-2012, 02:41 PM
I think that scares me more-lol!

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Serpico1985
06-03-2012, 06:47 PM
What is meant by wrist lock as is applies to the weak hand? Also what about the strong hand? Ken H talks about locking the strong hand wrist when shooting glocks in his video for grip force adapters. Is it a conscious effort to "lock" the wrist at some certain angle? Or more a wrist index where your wrist is always the same from shot to shot or presntation to presentation.

Thanks to all for this informative thread. I wanted to ask this but didn't want to start a whole new thread.

TCinVA
06-04-2012, 08:18 AM
What is meant by wrist lock as is applies to the weak hand?

Think of pointing at a target with your thumb, essentially "sighting" down the top of it as you might do with your index finger. The position necessary to accomplish that requires rotating the wrist so that your thumb is more or less directly in line with the bones of your arm. This position "locks" the wrist. If you hold that position and someone attempts to rotate your hand back up to the normal orientation they are probably going to move your arm at the elbow or shoulder before they can apply enough pressure to move your wrist.



Also what about the strong hand? Ken H talks about locking the strong hand wrist when shooting glocks in his video for grip force adapters. Is it a conscious effort to "lock" the wrist at some certain angle? Or more a wrist index where your wrist is always the same from shot to shot or presntation to presentation.


It essentially means taking a firm grip on the gun. Some people are barely holding on to the gun when it's in their hands. Ken's admonition is around getting them to grip the weapon firmly which locks the wrist as much as you can while working with the grip of your typical handgun. You can't "lock" the wrist fully with the hand that's on the gun because if you did the gun would be pointing at the ground. Still, you can grab the gun like you mean it and if done properly force applied to your hand will move your arm at a larger joint instead of at the wrist.

cclaxton
06-04-2012, 09:53 AM
Two things I have learned:

1) The gun's recoil pivots the barrel up around the gun's fulcrum point and holding the gun securely with your support hand with the wrist locked forcing the fingers to hold the bottom of the hand grip helps to prevent the amount of movement associated with recoil. DR Middlebrook's FistFire emphasizes understanding the physics around the gun and how to use a wrist-lock with the support hand. See here: http://www.tacticalshooting.com/shooting-tips/. I found this to be very useful to understand and limit recoil. (Notice I did not use the word "control" which suggests its a verb.)

2) Dryfire practice can only go so far....it takes a lot of fastfire pratice at the range to develop the right combination of grip, arm alignment, eye alignment, sight alignment, reaction control, etc. to get the accuracy and the speed.

This is just my own anecdotal experience and individual results may vary...certainly opinions will vary. FYI, I thought the DVD's were worth it.

Thanks,
CC

Serpico1985
06-04-2012, 02:14 PM
TCinVA,

Are you pushing the gun foward into the locked wrist with the gun/strong hand to take advantage of it (it being the locked wrist)?

TCinVA
06-04-2012, 02:17 PM
The weak hand is clamped hard around the grip of the gun making as much contact as possible which forces the weapon to recoil predictably. Some push/pull force between the weak and strong hands may be useful to keep the hands from separating as the pistol moves. Personally I think of it more in terms of pulling my left hand into the grip of the weapon slightly to aid in eliminating potential gaps in the grip.

Serpico1985
06-04-2012, 03:48 PM
Thanks for the clarifying info TCinVA. I'm going to the range this week and will definitely try this out.

The main thing I’d like to be able to do is have recoil control like Todd does, especially in that video of him shooting the 3 round per target triple nickel with the Glock or the 1.98 bill drill with the hk45. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched those videos saying “how the hell does he do that”…….black magic, the force, Chi????

Thanks

JAD
06-04-2012, 04:13 PM
“how the hell does he do that”…….black magic, the force, Chi????
-- Spite.

ToddG
06-04-2012, 04:21 PM
“how the hell does he do that”…….black magic, the force, Chi????

Sub-optimal technique, apparently. :p

In all seriousness, it's: grip, stance, and visual control of the gun rather than trying to fight/control the recoil.

JV_
06-04-2012, 04:23 PM
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched those videos saying “how the hell does he do that”…….black magic, the force, Chi????

I agree.

One thing I would do is record yourself shooting. I've found a big difference between how much muzzle rise I think exists (as the shooter) compared to how much shows up on video.

Serpico1985
06-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Thanks TC, Todd and JV. Mayby I'll swipe the girlfriends digital camera and see what I can come up with. I've been thinking of getting a contour HD camera for training purposes but haven't bitten the bullet yet.