Today I found out Sig pistol accuracy standard is a joke

[mrozowjj]

I'm going to get this out right up front before I get into the story:

Sig Sauer pistol accuracy standards is 2.5" at 10 yards fired from a bench.

I'm going to let that one sink in. Across the board all guns are measured to that standard. Buy a $1500 Sig P210 Target? That's the standard. Has to be worse than that to be considered a problem. Just to be clear I'm not saying Sig accuracy sucks across the board; I'm sure some of their guns have great accuracy; I'm saying the standard which they use to measure is unacceptable.

The story:
I shot a Sig P320 X5 Legion back in September. It was incredible to shoot and I had to have one. I bought one in Oct. Right out of the gate the accuracy was disappointing but not dramatically so; just outside the realm of what I find is acceptable for what is supposedly a target/competition gun. I thought it was me learning the gun, trigger, sights etc. It still performs well when I went to shoot plate racks at 10 yards.

(As an aside within the first 500 rounds in the trigger bar breaks. Straight up breaks at the end of the range session; gun is inoperable. I call Sig they have me send it in and replace it. Took about 8 days total which is great customer service.)

I decide to mount a red dot to it. I get a Springer Precision plate and mount a Holosun. I take it to the range and put it on a bench at 25 yards to sight it in. Gun is all over the place at 25 yards. Like 7-8" at 25 yards so I can't get a zero on the dot. I assume the dot is the culprit and call Holosun and 10 minutes later I have an email with a return label. I mail the dot to them.

A little less than 2 weeks later I get the dot back. This past weekend I try to sight it in at 20 yards and I'm getting 6" which isn't great. (BTW on the same day I do this I bring my Sig P365 and I basically get the same size group off hand with the P365 as I did with the P320 X5 Legion from a rest) Now I start thinking maybe it's the ammo? Well the same ammo did good in my P365 so I scratch my head but still Ammo is the culprit

I decide to call Sig to find out what kind of ammo they use to test these guns because I want to see if maybe it is the ammo. The tech on the phone tells me they use a wide variety of ammo and then tells me they test it at 10 yards and I'm gobsmacked. He agrees to email me the target they use to test for accuracy. This is the target:


48037

I'm dumbfounded. Even my least accuracy gun can do 2.5" at 10 yards. I'm not sure what to do with this gun now because it's not accurate and sending it to Sig the standard is so low it won't matter even if they do "fix" it.

Am I blowing this out of proportion or is this accuracy standard an extremely low bar?

[Greg]

I bet that “standard” ensures a 0% failure rate.

Which is why it was selected.

[JimLob65]

I would suggest contacting SIG CS about your specific problem with some type of proof if possible to see if they will have a look at it. All my SIGs are very accurate, with the limiting factor being the guy holding the gun.

[M2CattleCo]

trash company

trash guns

trash standards

[Gadfly]

To be fair, 90% of the shooting community could not hold a 2.5" group at 10 yards, and would never notice. How many ranges have you been to and seen the "18 inch goups at 3 yards" target? But still, the gun should be mechanically able to hold 3-5" at 25....

[mrozowjj]

I would suggest contacting SIG CS about your specific problem with some type of proof if possible to see if they will have a look at it. All my SIGs are very accurate, with the limiting factor being the guy holding the gun.

I mean I have pictures of targets at 20 yards but I don't know if that is considered "proof" exactly. I also have pictures of targets where it's getting 1.5" at 10 yards which better than their standard so as far as they are concerned it's performing as expected.


To be fair, 90% of the shooting community could not hold a 2.5" group at 10 yards, and would never notice. How many ranges have you been too and seen the "18" goups at 3 yards" target? But still, the gun should be mechanically able to hold 3-5" at 25....

I hear what you're saying. I'm not the best pistol shooter in the world; I'm a High C Class USPSA shooter but any time I go to the indoor range I feel like Annie Oakley when I look at the targets of the other shooters there because their targets at 7 yards look like my targets at 20.

But still 5" @ 25y is about the max I would consider acceptable for a duty gun so the fact that this is a "competition" gun and I'm getting 7-8" is disappointing.

[M2CattleCo]

To be fair, 90% of the shooting community could not hold a 2.5" group at 10 yards, and would never notice. How many ranges have you been to and seen the "18 inch goups at 3 yards" target? But still, the gun should be mechanically able to hold 3-5" at 25....

I'm an 8" @ 25 yard shooter. I need all the help I can get!

[FreedomFries]

I wonder what target Smith uses for the M&P series. :p

Has any other major "duty grade" pistol manufacturer actually been kind enough to release their test protocol and minimum standard for accuracy?

[CCT125US]

Id be curious what HK holds thier's to. One of several reasons I haven't strayed from HK, is the accuracy they provide me.

[WOLFIE]

I thought I was having accuracy issues with a P226 9mm. Turned out it was the bullets I ordered for reloading. I did call Sig cs and the man said to send it in to be looked at. I had the impression they would have taken it seriously.

[Gumby]

Only a sample of one each, but my LBCC shoots 1.5" at 25 feet while my Sig nitron 1911 does 2" at the same distance.

[JimLob65]

FWIW my P320 Legion shoots considerably better than SIGs 'standards', and I am not all that great of a shooter. Can't hurt to contact SIG and see what they have to say, even if it is a 'trash company' making 'trash guns' :rolleyes:.

[Balisong]

I bet even a Jennings would group at least 2.5 inches at 10 yards. If it can fire enough rounds to get a grouping.

[Mitch]

I would be pissed. If I were you I’d try some different ammo to see if you can find something the gun likes better, but I’d still be pissed. If it doesn’t group anything well I wouldn’t keep it. Life is too short to keep guns that piss you off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

NATO Standardized Agreement (STANAG) 4090 - is the agreement for the standards of 9mm NATO cartridges. That agreement specifies an accuracy standard for the ammunition of 3” at 50 meters (54.68 yards). It stands to reason that the handgun that shoots it should be capable of such an accuracy standard itself.

Ergo, anything that cannot shoot to that standard should be regarded as inadequate. Since the Sig 320 is a derivation of the now NATO approved sidearm of the US Military, anything that cannot shoot at or less (smaller) than 3” @ 50m is unacceptable.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I bet that “standard” ensures a 0% failure rate.

Which is why it was selected.

Bingo, frankly this is apalling yet completely unsurprising in that it would appear that "Sig gonna be Sig" as it were.

[Tod-13]

NATO Standardized Agreement (STANAG) 4090 - is the agreement for the standards of 9mm NATO cartridges. That agreement specifies an accuracy standard for the ammunition of 3” at 50 meters (54.68 yards). It stands to reason that the handgun that shoots it should be capable of such an accuracy standard itself.

Ergo, anything that cannot shoot to that standard should be regarded as inadequate. Since the Sig 320 is a derivation of the now NATO approved sidearm of the US Military, anything that cannot shoot at or less (smaller) than 3” @ 50m is unacceptable.

LOL. First version of S&W CORE 9mm shot 8-12 inches at 25 yards.
Smith said that was "acceptable".

[KevH]

Since the Sig 320 is a derivation of the now NATO approved sidearm of the US Military, anything that cannot shoot at or less (smaller) than 3” @ 50m is unacceptable.

The M17 (NSN 1005-01-661-7317) and M18 (NSN 1005-01-661-7323) as shipped to the US Military are NATO.

A P320 X5 Legion is not.

If you think for one second that sleazy company is using the same parts to the same standards in their 950 variations of the P320 platform you are kidding yourself.

There is such huge variation in quality control from SIG it is almost mind boggling.

With that said, I shot a co-worker's brand spankin new P320 X5 Legion with a Vortex Venom mounted on it this past Wednesday and found it to be extremely accurate and pleasant to shoot.

Would I trust it for anything other than range games? Not a chance, but the concept is excellent and I understand why you purchased the pistol.

[Tokarev]

Never mind. Question asked already.

[Danjojo]

I wonder what target Smith uses for the M&P series. :p

Has any other major "duty grade" pistol manufacturer actually been kind enough to release their test protocol and minimum standard for accuracy?

I bet if people contacted them, they would...might make for a nice little internet database.

[Danjojo]

I've always liked CZ and Walther including a test target with each pistol and wished more did so. Being I'm a lot more interested in seeing what mine is likely to do than the general standard.

Specifics aside, we kinda know which companies tend to put out more accurate pistols...as well as which ones are backsliding or are a totally new company using an old name/logo without the craftsmanship and standards that came with it.

Old Sig with their DA/SA guns had consistently great accuracy and overall function that earned status. This new Sig is much more hit or miss. Plenty still very precise, most pretty dang good, but then reliability and quality of small parts is a problem. They are IMO basically a fancy version of Ruger with a higher price tag and cooler designs.

That the new designs show promise and are intriguing keeps the common folk giving them a pass or even singing their praises, thinking they are still upper tier firearms. Combine that with whatever connections new Sig has politically, ideologically, financially, etc. getting them all of these very nice government contracts here and elsewhere.

[farscott]

Wilson Combat shows "Accuracy Guarantee: 1.5” at 25 yrds" for the EDC X9 but does not specify the number of shots in the group. Each pistol ships with a test target showing what the pistol did at fifteen yards for five shots (used to be three shots). Goal is to be one-inch high at fifteen yards and to be POA/POI at fifty yards.

[AJD21]

But I’ve been told on this forum that Sig doesn’t even test fire guns?

[OlongJohnson]

Dagga Boy has posted his story about receiving a batch of P220s at his agency where a significant percentage of them wouldn't even pop a primer. Sig was less than helpful, and that agency became an H&K shop a very short time later. (If I remember all that correctly.)

[mrozowjj]

FWIW my P320 Legion shoots considerably better than SIGs 'standards', and I am not all that great of a shooter. Can't hurt to contact SIG and see what they have to say, even if it is a 'trash company' making 'trash guns' :rolleyes:.

What Sig told me was if it meets the spec they do nothing and charge me $105 for shipping and ammo. He said they were getting too many people that can't shoot returning the gun because they were shooting low right it whatever. While that is somewhat understandable the standard is so low that in sure the gun would meet it. If they aren't going to test it at 25 yards it's pointless to send it in.


I would be pissed. If I were you I’d try some different ammo to see if you can find something the gun likes better, but I’d still be pissed. If it doesn’t group anything well I wouldn’t keep it. Life is too short to keep guns that piss you off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My intent was to have Sig tell me what ammo they used so I could see if it improves with some known ammo but they didn't tell me. I might try a few other brands but I might end up selling it regardless at this point.

[JimLob65]

What Sig told me was if it meets the spec they do nothing and charge me $105 for shipping and ammo. He said they were getting too many people that can't shoot returning the gun because they were shooting low right it whatever. While that is somewhat understandable the standard is so low that in sure the gun would meet it. If they aren't going to test it at 25 yards it's pointless to send it in.



My intent was to have Sig tell me what ammo they used so I could see if it improves with some known ammo but they didn't tell me. I might try a few other brands but I might end up selling it regardless at this point.

Will the gun shop where you purchased the pistol send it back for you?

Unfortunately you aren't in my neck of the woods as I would offer to let you try mine.

[mrozowjj]

Will the gun shop where you purchased the pistol send it back for you?

Unfortunately you aren't in my neck of the woods as I would offer to let you try mine.

I think you seem to be missing the point. As I said before I'm sure Sig makes accurate guns but it doesn't matter that yours is accurate; this one isn't out at least might not be and Sig is totally ok with that and doesn't intend to do anything about it. Doesn't matter who sends it to them.

[Rmiked]

If I’m not mistaken, the Beretta accuracy claim for their 92 series pistols was 4” at 50 meters. I read that somewhere and a rep from Beretta told me on the phone. If true , that’s much better than 2.5” at 10 yards. About 1/3 the group size of SIG.

[GJM]

Between my wife and I we have six 320 Legions and three 320 X5 pistols. They are all sub three inch guns at 25 yards, shooting off hand. Something isn’t right, and it could be the gun, optic, optic plate, mounting method, ammo or the shooter. If it is the pistol, it is an anomaly for a 320 Legion. I didn’t read every post, but are others reporting poor accuracy with the 320 Legion or X5?

[JimLob65]

I think you seem to be missing the point. As I said before I'm sure Sig makes accurate guns but it doesn't matter that yours is accurate; this one isn't out at least might not be and Sig is totally ok with that and doesn't intend to do anything about it. Doesn't matter who sends it to them.

I am not missing the point at all. SIGs response might very well be different if a dealer sends the pistol in for evaluation as opposed to an individual. My offer to you to try my pistol if that would have been possible would have allowed you to demonstrate to SIG that this most likely isn’t an issue with the shooter.

I also understand that you appear to have bought a lemon. There is plenty of evidence at SIGForum and SIGTalk that SIG CS does take these issues seriously, and isn’t necessarily ‘OK with that...”. However you will never know if you don’t follow up.

[lwt16]

I’d find a solid 25 yard shooter and see what he/she can do with it. I’ve shot dozens of P320s and none of them were that inaccurate.

Even a pocket gun should do better. Here’s an Interarms PPK that I repaired today and tested for a customer.

48051

Just messing around at the 25 yard line with five Gold Dot .380s. off hand freestyle. I wish you were closer so I could run it.

The broken trigger bar concerns me as I have heard of others breaking. Any chance you have a pic of that?

Regards.

[Yung]

A glance at their customer support FAQs on their website:


My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a “combat” sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bullseye of the target. Using a six o’clock (“pumpkin on a post”) or center mass (“half’n’half”) sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2 inch groupings @ 10 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis.

A glance toward the end of the P365 manual, linked from the SAS variant's product description page, describes sight windage and elevation adjustments at 25 yards.

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/OPERATORS-MANUAL-P365-UPDATED-12-26-2018.pdf

Note the update isn't current with the date of release. I'm focusing on the SAS because I specifically recall a service bulletin regarding factory accuracy standards posted on the board by the entrance to my local range.

I'll pop over there and snap a picture real quick.

[HCM]

I'm going to get this out right up front before I get into the story:

Sig Sauer pistol accuracy standards is 2.5" at 10 yards fired from a bench.

I'm going to let that one sink in. Across the board all guns are measured to that standard. Buy a $1500 Sig P210 Target? That's the standard. Has to be worse than that to be considered a problem. Just to be clear I'm not saying Sig accuracy sucks across the board; I'm sure some of their guns have great accuracy; I'm saying the standard which they use to measure is unacceptable.

The story:
I shot a Sig P320 X5 Legion back in September. It was incredible to shoot and I had to have one. I bought one in Oct. Right out of the gate the accuracy was disappointing but not dramatically so; just outside the realm of what I find is acceptable for what is supposedly a target/competition gun. I thought it was me learning the gun, trigger, sights etc. It still performs well when I went to shoot plate racks at 10 yards.

(As an aside within the first 500 rounds in the trigger bar breaks. Straight up breaks at the end of the range session; gun is inoperable. I call Sig they have me send it in and replace it. Took about 8 days total which is great customer service.)

I decide to mount a red dot to it. I get a Springer Precision plate and mount a Holosun. I take it to the range and put it on a bench at 25 yards to sight it in. Gun is all over the place at 25 yards. Like 7-8" at 25 yards so I can't get a zero on the dot. I assume the dot is the culprit and call Holosun and 10 minutes later I have an email with a return label. I mail the dot to them.

A little less than 2 weeks later I get the dot back. This past weekend I try to sight it in at 20 yards and I'm getting 6" which isn't great. (BTW on the same day I do this I bring my Sig P365 and I basically get the same size group off hand with the P365 as I did with the P320 X5 Legion from a rest) Now I start thinking maybe it's the ammo? Well the same ammo did good in my P365 so I scratch my head but still Ammo is the culprit

I decide to call Sig to find out what kind of ammo they use to test these guns because I want to see if maybe it is the ammo. The tech on the phone tells me they use a wide variety of ammo and then tells me they test it at 10 yards and I'm gobsmacked. He agrees to email me the target they use to test for accuracy. This is the target:


48037

I'm dumbfounded. Even my least accuracy gun can do 2.5" at 10 yards. I'm not sure what to do with this gun now because it's not accurate and sending it to Sig the standard is so low it won't matter even if they do "fix" it.

Am I blowing this out of proportion or is this accuracy standard an extremely low bar?

What ammo have you been using ? Factory ? Reloads ?

Have you tried it again with the irons to ensure it’s not the dot ?

[Yung]

48053

[CCT125US]

Meanwhile over at HK:

Right, 1 mil.

48055

From about this time last year, with a subcompact.

[FreedomFries]

Meanwhile over at HK:

Right, 1 mil.

48055

From about this time last year, with a subcompact.

OK, but does that P2000SK come in a two tone Equinox finish version?

[YVK]

I didn’t read every post, but are others reporting poor accuracy with the 320 Legion or X5?

No. Every one of them I've seen around me were plenty accurate. You don't command 1/3 of USPSA Nationals division market share with 2.5 inches / 10 yards accuracy.

There are two separate problems. First, assuming this is not an optic / ammo / shooter's error, the gun is a lemon, loud and clear. Second, SIG's reported accuracy criteria are low enough that even a lemon, by a reasonable user's standard, would pass their accuracy QC.

Before everyone dogpiles on SIG, I can quite certainly say that S&W has the same accuracy standard, or at least had it in 2011 when I went through this with my M&P. I could not keep half of the mag on 11x8 at 25. I am sure most people remember that systematic accuracy fiasco. I don't know if too many remember that S&W used the same accuracy standard.

This sucks but it is not surprising in an industry that doesn't have set and agreed on criteria on accuracy, reliability, or durability.

If I were in OP's place, I would put some solid effort to exclude a non-gun reason, shoot different ammo, from a Ransom, different dots, different shooters, other shooters who have had good results with the Legion, and still appeal to some supervisor at the SIG. Email Phil Strader, or somebody higher up.

[mrozowjj]

No. Every one of them I've seen around me were plenty accurate. You don't command 1/3 of USPSA Nationals division market share with 2.5 inches / 10 yards accuracy.

There are two separate problems. First, assuming this is not an optic / ammo / shooter's error, the gun is a lemon, loud and clear. Second, SIG's reported accuracy criteria are low enough that even a lemon, by a reasonable user's standard, would pass their accuracy QC.

Before everyone dogpiles on SIG, I can quite certainly say that S&W has the same accuracy standard, or at least had it in 2011 when I went through this with my M&P. I could not keep half of the mag on 11x8 at 25. I am sure most people remember that systematic accuracy fiasco. I don't know if too many remember that S&W used the same accuracy standard.

This sucks but it is not surprising in an industry that doesn't have set and agreed on criteria on accuracy, reliability, or durability.

If I were in OP's place, I would put some solid effort to exclude a non-gun reason, shoot different ammo, from a Ransom, different dots, different shooters, other shooters who have had good results with the Legion, and still appeal to some supervisor at the SIG. Email Phil Strader, or somebody higher up.



This guy get's it.

Everyone telling me to trouble shoot the gun is missing the point. I am trouble shooting and that's why I called Sig in the first place. I wanted them to suggest some ammo I should use to test in the gun the next time I went to the range so that I didn't run through half a dozen brands before maybe finding one that was good. (Which by the way they didn't suggest an ammo. They just said "We use a lot. I think we have some Blazer back there and we definitely have Sig ammo.") The gun might have an issue, might be ammo or the dot or whatever but none of that is the point of this post.

The point of this post is the Sig accuracy standard is so laughably bad that if a lemon does slip through would still meet their standard. Every company occasionally makes a lemon and the few times I've had a lemon or an issue the company has always made it right but in this case if this is a lemon it will still meet their standard.

[Rock185]

Wow, 2 1/2" at 10 yards. That would equate to 6 1/4" at 25 Yards/Terrible. I haven't had any SIGs that grouped that poorly, but what a low bar. I've owned SIGs since the '80s, was a SIG armorer, and carried a SIG every working day for several years. But that minimum level of "accuracy" seems to be intended to ensure every SIG can be said to "meet factory specs" if/when some buyer complains to Customer Service....

[Kirk]

I've got to be honest, both of my P320 X5s (not Legions) were very accurate, easily 2"at 25y off-hand with the stock Dawson irons. If you are also having problems with the P365, could it be operator or ammo related?

[Super77]

No. Every one of them I've seen around me were plenty accurate. You don't command 1/3 of USPSA Nationals division market share with 2.5 inches / 10 yards accuracy.

Off topic, but are most people at that level running the Legion or the 'regular' X5?

[JimLob65]

This guy get's it.

Everyone telling me to trouble shoot the gun is missing the point. I am trouble shooting and that's why I called Sig in the first place. I wanted them to suggest some ammo I should use to test in the gun the next time I went to the range so that I didn't run through half a dozen brands before maybe finding one that was good. (Which by the way they didn't suggest an ammo. They just said "We use a lot. I think we have some Blazer back there and we definitely have Sig ammo.") The gun might have an issue, might be ammo or the dot or whatever but none of that is the point of this post.

The point of this post is the Sig accuracy standard is so laughably bad that if a lemon does slip through would still meet their standard. Every company occasionally makes a lemon and the few times I've had a lemon or an issue the company has always made it right but in this case if this is a lemon it will still meet their standard.

I would have to say that everyone here 'gets it'. Yes, SIGs 'accuracy standard' is poor. Is it so to help weed out the guy who might be better off chucking the pistol at a target because he simply can't shoot to deter that guy from wasting SIGs time? That is an open question. You said you contacted SIG to find out what kind of ammo they use to determine accuracy, but you never state that you discussed with SIG the problem you are experiencing with their newest competition pistol, and how you are trying to work with it. Maybe you did and I just don't recall reading that. If so, did you escalate the issue? Maybe you have, although I can't recall seeing in this thread where you state that you have. Unless you or your dealer contacts SIG CS about your specific problem you will never know if they will actually make an effort to make it right for you.

Nobody is saying that you didn't get a lemon. No one is disputing the issue you are seeing . No one is stating that the published standard isn't ridiculous for a competition pistol. What people are trying to do is help you out with suggestions. How hard would it be to contact SIG, not just6to find out what ammo they use? Or to escalate your complaint at SIG if need be? One thing is sure, all that would be alot more difficult than bitching about it, and complaining about people who are offering suggestions that you refuse to consider. If SIG tells you to go hell then everyone here would join you in condemming SIG I am sure.

[Hambo]

I wanted them to suggest some ammo I should use to test in the gun the next time I went to the range so that I didn't run through half a dozen brands before maybe finding one that was good.

For ammo, just go with HST. If you really want to figure this out, you have to eliminate one variable at a time, and HST should eliminate the ammo variable. Then you and someone else need to shoot it with irons, then repeat with the dot.

Until you do some testing like that, you're pissing in the wind.

[GJM]

In our Legion and C5 pistols we have had good results with Lawman 24 TMJ, American Eagle 115, PMC 115, PMC 124 and 150 Federal Syntech.

[YVK]

I wanted them to suggest some ammo I should use to test in the gun the next time I went to the range so that I didn't run through half a dozen brands before maybe finding one that was good.


Personally, I would just shoot some reasonably reputable ammo and be done. I actually disagree with the HST recommendation. You're not going to run that ammo as your primary choice for practice or competition even if your Legion likes it. I'd use some Lawman load, some regular Federal AE load, and a Syntech 150 gr load, the latter being a formally approved USPSA ammo. These three are known quality commercial loads that are both affordable and are expected to group at least 3-3.5 at 25 yards.

Recommendation to find a way of contacting Phil Strader was not a random one. The dude is a Super Squad shooter who works for SIG, who credits self being a part of the team behind the Legion, who unveiled the Legion in all events and media, and who shoots it himself. If your gun truly doesn't group for shit, I can't imagine a person who would be in a better position to cut through this low QC standard bullshit. You've got nothing to lose anyway, and we all may have something to gain from your experience.


Off topic, but are most people at that level running the Legion or the 'regular' X5?

Regular by about 2:1 ratio but with a caveat. The Legion was released in mass during the summer time, and CO Nationals were in September. Legions went from "just released" to 1/3 of all SIGs, which in turn is 1/3 of all Nationals CO guns, in a span of 3 months or so.

[ralph]

Id be curious what HK holds thier's to. One of several reasons I haven't strayed from HK, is the accuracy they provide me.

I do have a USPc that I bought used, that actually had the test target.. they test at 25 meters... If I remember correctly, the group on the target (5 rnds) was under 2” I was shocked...

[rayrevolver]

HK does not always supply a test target. I bought a new USP9T, BG date code, and it did not come with a test target.

This pic is from a thread on HKPro and it was at 15m.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b542/Passengerseven/IMG_2818_zpshhybg58q.jpg

This USP Expert came with a 25m test target. Also from Pro.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b542/Passengerseven/IMG_0246_zps1l9mfmk2.jpg

...I would have hoped Sig had a higher standard for the Legion or any premium line. Maybe I missed it, but have we found what other companies use for their accuracy QC check... assuming they even fire their pistols?

[Doc_Glock]

I went through this process with Sig since my 2022 doesn’t hit anywhere near the front sight. I did their test and it was still way off. They refused to do anything about it hitting about 6” high at 25 yards because it met the standard barely at 10. I was hoping to swap sight heights. No dice ended up buying Dawson’s.

I also went through this with Beretta when my M9A3 shot way off height for the sights. They threatened to charge me for shipping and gunsmithing if it shot to spec, took it back, found it out of spec, replaced the rear and it shot perfectly afterwords.

I had issues with HK P30Ls and elevation. HK, when called, just sent out another height sight that solved the problem. All other HKs (VP9, P30, P30Sk, USPc) shot tip of front sight out of the box.

Glock just says: here are some junky sights. Replace.

So yeah, Sig sucks, but the P320s I had were exceptionally accurate, as was the 226 Legion. .

[Spartan1980]

Before everyone dogpiles on SIG, I can quite certainly say that S&W has the same accuracy standard, or at least had it in 2011 when I went through this with my M&P. I could not keep half of the mag on 11x8 at 25. I am sure most people remember that systematic accuracy fiasco. I don't know if too many remember that S&W used the same accuracy standard.

You were far from the only one. I didn't know the standard was the same, but I knew it had to be similar. M&P accuracy (in 9mm) is the biggest disappointment to many I'm sure. I know LEOs who shot higher scores on their qualification with their Shield than their issued M&P FS. Man were were they pissed...

O/P call Sig back and work it out. As mentioned Phil Strader is a stand up dude and does care. I wouldn't be surprised if it worked out that he tested it himself if you contact him directly via email and talk it through with him. Not saying that'll happen but it might from what I've seen with him while squadded in his squad on multiple occasions.

[Gumby]

I went through this process with Sig since my 2022 doesn’t hit anywhere near the front sight. I did their test and it was still way off. They refused to do anything about it hitting about 6” high at 25 yards because it met the standard barely at 10. I was hoping to swap sight heights. No dice ended up buying Dawson’s.

I also went through this with Beretta when my M9A3 shot way off height for the sights. They threatened to charge me for shipping and gunsmithing if it shot to spec, took it back, found it out of spec, replaced the rear and it shot perfectly afterwords.

I had issues with HK P30Ls and elevation. HK, when called, just sent out another height sight that solved the problem. All other HKs (VP9, P30, P30Sk, USPc) shot tip of front sight out of the box.

Glock just says: here are some junky sights. Replace.

So yeah, Sig sucks, but the P320s I had were exceptionally accurate, as was the 226 Legion. .

My 2022 is spot on. My Beretta m9a1 was sent back to the dealer, along with my brothers because of the same problem with the sights. My HK's are just gone, Glock, no way. My LBCC is forever!

[lwt16]

I wanted them to suggest some ammo I should use to test in the gun the next time I went to the range so that I didn't run through half a dozen brands before maybe finding one that was good.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/1/18/38-different-9mm-loads/

There is a list of 50 shot 9mm accuracy among common factory loadings. Hopes this helps you out.

Regards.

[LtDave]

My P320RX shoots for crap:

48086

Seriously, this gun is the most accurate 9mm I own. I've shot sub 2" groups with 32 different factory JHP, factory FMJ and hand loads at 20 yards off the bench. The gun has run 100%, but I'm on my second Romeo Red Dot after the first one self destructed. SIG replaced it for free, no questions asked. I am the second owner of this pistol.

[0ddl0t]

This guy get's it.

Everyone telling me to trouble shoot the gun is missing the point.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for Sig to charge you $105 if they find their gun is in spec (a reasonable 2" @ 10 yards -- equivalent to 5" @ 25 yards -- for combat pistols per their FAQ on their website). You claim to be shooting 7-8" at 25 yards with a target pistol, which presumably is held to an even higher standard. So send it back and Sig will fix it for free.

If it does turn out to be the Indian and not the arrow (or your holosun or unspecified ammo) Sig is merely charging you their cost for the roundtrip 2-day shipping and ammo -- they are charging $0 for their time. If you're so sure the pistol is that far off, send it in. If you have some doubt, the members here have offered a great deal of good advice on diagnosing the issue.

[ralph]

HK does not always supply a test target. I bought a new USP9T, BG date code, and it did not come with a test target.

This pic is from a thread on HKPro and it was at 15m.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b542/Passengerseven/IMG_2818_zpshhybg58q.jpg

This USP Expert came with a 25m test target. Also from Pro.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b542/Passengerseven/IMG_0246_zps1l9mfmk2.jpg

...I would have hoped Sig had a higher standard for the Legion or any premium line. Maybe I missed it, but have we found what other companies use for their accuracy QC check... assuming they even fire their pistols?

You are correct. HK doesn’t supply test targets to guns going to the U.S. at least with the more common models..However, pistols going elsewhere HK does supply a test target to. MyUSPc was supposedly part of a special order for some LE agency, somewhere besides the U.S. I’m not sure where it was supposed to go.This pistol has a factory installed light LEM trigger AND ambi safety levers..(overkill if you ask me) From what I can find out, delivery of the pistols was refused, and HK supposedly sold them to a German firearms distributor, who then sold them to an American firearms distributor, as it has a import mark on the right side of the slide.. And it ended up in my LGS, brand new, with 3mags, $400..I couldn’t get my wallet out fast enough..... The date code on this is BE..

[Hemiram]

I don't shoot all that well anymore, but my groups aren't terrible. Least accurate semiauto I own is my surplus Jericho 941F, which looks like the well worn gun it is, but when I first got it, a friend and I shot it both freehand, and on sandbags and it was more accurate than the OP's Sig is on WWWB 115gr ammo. For grins, I took my favorite semiauto, another surplus from Israel gun, a Tanfoglio TA/90, and shot it to see what it could do. It has the best slide/frame fit of any gun I own, and it was about a half inch tighter at 10 yards than the Jericho was shooting the same ammo. My ex NYPD Sig P226 was almost identical in accuracy to the Jericho. My friend's S&W M&P unissued Detroit PD was solidly in last place, but not by much. I found out since then that the Tanfoglio loves 124gr ammo (At least all we tried in it), and shoots very tight groups if gramps (that's me) is having a good day, and to be honest, that's not happening much these days, but once in a while..

Kind of shocking that a "target" Sig is that sloppy.

[rayrevolver]

Did the standards change? Or is there a USA v Germany thing going on?

Just so happens a P226 X-Five hit my local board. It includes a German test target with what looks like a circle stamp over the 25m group... Is it 2"?

I can't seem to link the picture but I will post the link.
https://www.mdshooters.com/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=38641

Also some guy is selling a Remington Rand 1911 for $2025. I kinda want it!
https://www.mdshooters.com/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=38649

PS - I used to shoot with the OP back in the day. A good guy and I remember a capable shooter.

J - Call Sig back and escalate!

[mrozowjj]

It's moderately frustrating that everyone is telling me to contact Sig Customer Service because A) I already have; I emailed them, it's the weekend and shocker they haven't replied nor did I expect them to so there's no updates from them. I just didn't want to talk about it because B) I didn't post to trouble shoot what is wrong with the gun. I'll reiterate; the point of the post was that I found out Sig accuracy spec is such a low bar it has completely reduced my confidence in buying a pistol from them in the future. I was simply attempting to inform everyone here that maybe you should be a little hesitant with buying a pistol from them as well. I remember years ago when this was the place that was where I found out about the S&W M&P's accuracy problems and it saved me a future headache so I thought I'd do a forum a solid and share this information with the forum but some of y'all are kind of making me regret it.

Since you all don't seem to want to relent and I'm getting a little tired of rolling my eyes at the not so subtle pokes at my shooting ability here's a spreadsheet with measurements of group sizes I took while at the range today with a few different pistols. Points of note; the Glock has a RMR red dot mounted to it but all of the others were shot using iron sights. Aside from the red dot all other parts on the guns are stock as they would be from the factory; I pulled the red dot from my Legion on the off chance the dot was the cause of the inaccuracy so all groups shot today were shot with the iron sights. All shots were fired from a rest which is boring as all fuck to do. I do not claim to be a world class shooter but hopefully by using other pistols to give you some data you have an idea what I'm capable of. I think I actually shot the Shadow 2 worse today from a bench then I usually do offhand. I chose Blazer because Sig CS told me they use it (They said "We use a lot of kinds. I know they have Blazer back there), S&B because I already have a bunch of it and Syntech because GJM recommended it. I coudln't find any of the other brands he recommended at the LGS today.

48173

If it was just one brand or load I could tell myself that perhaps the barrel just doesn't stabilize that particular load but as you can see the Legion had larger group sizes across the board compared to every other gun I brought with me today including the P365 which is as you know a tiny little carry gun that can fit in a pocket. None of the guns really liked Federal Syntech. It's not at all surprising to me that the Czech gun really liked the Czech ammo.

To preemptively answer the question I'm sure some of you will ask; yes I've emailed this to Sig CS along with pictures of the targets however because the Sig accuracy standard is 2.5" at 10 yards it looks like it would "pass" with all but 2 of the ammo brands I tried so if Sig is only going to shoot it at 10 yards sending it in would be a waste of time and money; depending on what they say I may have to sell gun with the lesson learned that Sig quality control isn't what it used to be and you can't guarantee to get an accurate gun from them even with paying a premium for the "Legion" branding because an average group size of 6.76" at 25 yards is scandalously bad for what is supposed to be a competition gun.

To everyone telling me to contact Phil Strader how would I even attempt to do that? Is his email and phone number being passed around the internet somewhere? Is he Bettlejuice? Do I just say his name 3 times and he is summoned into my living room? Joking aside if I have to go that route to make it right doesn't that imply Sig Customer Service is somehow lacking or substandard? What good is customer service that you need to be in the know to bypass it to actually get a good product?

[0ddl0t]

You've made a convincing case that something is up with your P320 and I expect Sig to take it back and correct the issue. When you send it in, I would include a copy of that spreadsheet as well as a printed screenshot of the Sig website FAQ where they state the standard is 2" @ 10 yards for *combat* pistols. That way the gunsmith knows what you're capable of and what you're expecting.

[JimLob65]

Although I can speak only for myself, it doesn't appear there were too many here who would disagree. WE GET IT!! The standard for accuracy leaves alot to be desired for a competition pistol, although as you have stated yourself that standard is for a combat pistol. People were offering suggestions because were much more interested in you having a pistol you were satisfied with than commiserating with you. There are far more X-5 Legions that aren't shooting as badly as yours, including my own which I was offering up to you until I realized you were across the nation, so it is capable of shooting accurately. So therefore you got a lemon., which seemingly can only be fixed by the manufacturer.

I wish you the best of luck and sincerely hope SIG takes care of your situation.

[JAD]

I am interested to know whether sig finds that gun to be in acceptable condition. However, there is no way I would screw with it if it were mine.

[fixer]

Cool data. Looks like the pistol is defective.

The options are

trade it
sell it
hope sig fixes it
do nothing.

Let us know how it goes.

[Squib308]

mrozowjj

I've also had lousy experience with Sig CS. I have a P229 9mm (long extractor, 2015 production) that has extraction failures 1-2 per 100 rounds. Sig has already serviced the pistol and replaced extractor springs, called it GTG. Of course the issue remains. They subsequently claim the pistol is beyond warranty date which as we all know is BS. They insist the pistol is just fine. my three P320's went in for "upgrade" and I was displeased with the nature of machining of the disconnect notch. essentially the new OOB disconnect safety was nonfunctional. Again Sig CS claimed everything was GTG and fine. I offered Sig to post my findings to social media at which time a supervisor at Sig CS called me back 30 min later offering to replace all 3 of my slides. My experience with Sig is that they no longer care to sell reliable firearms to the civ market. They just don't. Instead they drive civ sales by marketing scams like "legion".

my suggestion to you would be to call Sig CS back again and give them no option but to issue another RMA. If they refuse then demand to speak with a supervisor. Offer to post your findings to social media. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Still not working? Just keep annoying the shit out of them. Being repetitive helps. My goal with defective firearms is to make the manufacturer hemorrhage $$ into shipping costs so they learn a lesson. It's cheaper and wiser for them to make their customer happy than to run a propaganda campaign. It's BS that I've had to take this route but businesses like Sig leave the buyer no options. I have not purchased a Sig product since late 2016 and plan to never again. A used Sig pistol I'm fine acquiring as it gives little to no $$ to Sig.

[Trooper224]

Today I found out Sig pistol accuracy standard is a joke

Sig is a joke.

[psalms144.1]

I've probably told this story before, but, back circa 2008, in advance of my agency's transition to the P229R DAK, I bought a factory new P229R DAK to get familiar with the pistol. The gun I bought had multiple reliability issues out of the box, so I returned it to Sig. They couldn't make it work, so they sent a replacement. The replacement had a HUGE gap in the backstrap of the grip, because the grip screw "bushings" were machined off true - returned it for a replacement pistol. At this point, possibly because I was communicating directly with the LE Sales guy from my work address, I was promised a "hand picked" P229R DAK as a replacement. The pistol I got had the worst trigger I've ever felt - literally felt like someone poured a handful of sand/metal shavings in the action after it was put together. Trigger pull on the "tensioned" DAK trigger was in excess of 12 pounds on my trigger scale. I sent that one back and got a refund from Sig for the initial purchase price of the first pistol.

Fast forward to last year, when, based on input from folks I trust, I decided to give Sig another try. I bought two Sigs in short order. The first was a P320 Pro Carry (the LE only SKU). Nice feeling pistol, but it would result in a dead trigger after disassembly and reassembly because of tolerance stacking in the FCU. I called Sig about it, and was told, over the phone, that dead trigger can happen, and I should just rack the slide vigorously multiple times after reassembly, and that "should" reset the trigger. When I asked to speak to a manager in CS, they hung up on me. Second call reached someone with two active brain cells, and, after 30+ minutes of "trouble shooting" over the phone, they agreed to have the pistol returned for a look. In their defense, they paid the shipping and repair, and had it back to me in about a week, but, by that point I was soured on the pistol and sold it off with full disclosure after ensuring that Sig had, in fact, addressed the issue.

I also bought a P365 (LE SKU) around the same time. It needed to go back for a dead front NS, and for multiple FTRB issues. Again, they paid shipping both ways and fixed the problems, but I decided twice bitten, twice shy, and sold it off as well after ensuring it was functioning properly.

So, I'm not surprised to hear that Sig's "standards" for accuracy are less than what we'd like. Full disclosure, I've also had problems, including accuracy issues, with multiple GLOCKs over the years, so it's not JUST a Sig problem. It just seems that you're much more likely to find an issue with Sig, and get $h1+ response from CS when you dial in...

[KevH]

The type of customer service psalms144.1 described pretty much mirrors what agencies around me have experienced and why I'm so sour (get it... ) on the brand. SIG back in the day used to have some of the nicest and most reliable guns out of the box and quite a few of those old "classic" SIGs are still providing great service at my department. Pretty much any of the old stamped-steel slide guns from the mid-1990's will just plain shoot, no matter how rattly they are, and will continue to do so damn near forever as long as they are properly maintained.

Anecdotally...so take that for what it's worth...

In 2013, we had a department owned M&P 40 that would not hold a group. It shot right around 5" at 7 yards from rest no matter who was shooting it and as a firearms staff we considered it unacceptable (groups were significantly spread at 25 yards...the distance our department qualification starts from). I called S&W customer service (not a special LE line, factory rep, or anything like that), described the issue over the phone and talked with the rep less than 5 minutes, they gave me an RMA and e-mailed me a shipping tag, I sent it off, had the gun back in about a week with a new slide and barrel fitted and the gun had been test fired and included a target from the factory. No more problems. We had an old 2008 M&P this past year (an eleven year old beat to hell gun) that developed a crack in the slide. Guess what? Same process and had the gun back in about a week with a brand new slide. No drama. Easy peasy.

That folks is customer service. I have dozens of stories similar to that involving both Glock and S&W. I know both those companies are perfectly capable of putting out crap guns. There are examples all over the internet, but a S&W M&P is a S&W M&P, is a S&W M&P. The regular M&P's you buy at any gun shop aren't made from different parts than the ones sold to any LE agency. When there are quality control issues with a S&W they fix it.

There is a reason lots of guys that were around for SIG's slide in quality in the mid-2000's don't trust them...especially LE folks that have been burned by them (not hard to find). I described in the P320 thread elsewhere on this forum what I have seen from them and so have others. Trust is hard to earn and easily lost. How does that go, "Fool me once..."

[QuickStrike]

I recently had to shoot my p226 and p229 off the bench because I swapped their rear sights to warren tacs and was trying to figure out which height front sights to get.

Both grouped about 2” @ 20yards with HST’s. I am not really a group shooter as much as a noise maker though. :eek:

I do get your frustration with their CS. I complained to sig about my mk-25 barrel being all ringed and poorly finished on the inside. They told me it was normal.

Wasn’t exactly happy and later bought a new barrel. I get it that no company is perfect, but IMO they could stand to be a bit more accommodating...

[LockedBreech]

I recently had to shoot my p226 and p229 off the bench because I swapped their rear sights to warren tacs and was trying to figure out which height front sights to get.

Both grouped about 2” @ 20yards with HST’s. I am not really a group shooter as much as a noise maker though. :eek:

I do get your frustration with their CS. I complained to sig about my mk-25 barrel being all ringed and poorly finished on the inside. They told me it was normal.

Wasn’t exactly happy and later bought a new barrel. I get it that no company is perfect, but IMO they could stand to be a bit more accommodating...

I would not be happy with that at all. I spent $500 on my 2013 Beretta 92FS and the lands and grooves look pretty as a picture. If I spent 800-1000 for that stutter-grooving I would be grumpy.

Might not be unfair to compare, since I think Beretta barrels are pretty consistently some of the finest out there. But again, at Mk.25 prices, I'd expect 'em to make it right.

[mrozowjj]

The Sig tech that I've been emailing called me about an hour ago. He showed my data to my his supervisor and the supervisor agrees that while it technically meets factory spec there is something wrong with the gun and I did my due diligence so they want to take a look at it; he emailed me a Fedex label and I get to send this very same gun back to Sig for the second time. I hope they fix it but I'll have to wait a few weeks to find out.

They had it back already in November because I was nearing the end of a range session and the trigger went dead. I pulled the slide off wondering if maybe I could see what the problem is and I saw this:

48215

So a gun I've had for about 5 months has been back to Sig twice already.

[JBP55]

The Sig tech that I've been emailing called me about an hour ago. He showed my data to my his supervisor and the supervisor agrees that while it technically meets factory spec there is something wrong with the gun and I did my due diligence so they want to take a look at it; he emailed me a Fedex label and I get to send this very same gun back to Sig for the second time. I hope they fix it but I'll have to wait a few weeks to find out.

They had it back already in November because I was nearing the end of a range session and the trigger went dead. I pulled the slide off wondering if maybe I could see what the problem is and I saw this:

48215

So a gun I've had for about 5 months has been back to Sig twice already.

Be optimistic, maybe Sig will ship you a NIB Pistol that is very accurate.

[JimLob65]

Believe me when I say that I understand your frustration, as does everyone who participated in the thread I am sure. Man!! That's a lot of brass shavings!! I am glad SIG is looking to get the damn thing straightened out finally, and that all your due diligence seems to be paying off.

Please keep us posted, and the best of luck to you.

[Balisong]

The Sig tech that I've been emailing called me about an hour ago. He showed my data to my his supervisor and the supervisor agrees that while it technically meets factory spec there is something wrong with the gun and I did my due diligence so they want to take a look at it; he emailed me a Fedex label and I get to send this very same gun back to Sig for the second time. I hope they fix it but I'll have to wait a few weeks to find out.

They had it back already in November because I was nearing the end of a range session and the trigger went dead. I pulled the slide off wondering if maybe I could see what the problem is and I saw this:

48215

So a gun I've had for about 5 months has been back to Sig twice already.

Go to India they said. Have them build MIM gun parts they said. It'll be fun and drop safe they said.

Glad they're at least recognizing your effort and taking a look at it.

[RevolverRob]

The M17 (NSN 1005-01-661-7317) and M18 (NSN 1005-01-661-7323) as shipped to the US Military are NATO.

A P320 X5 Legion is not.

If you think for one second that sleazy company is using the same parts to the same standards in their 950 variations of the P320 platform you are kidding yourself.

There is such huge variation in quality control from SIG it is almost mind boggling.

With that said, I shot a co-worker's brand spankin new P320 X5 Legion with a Vortex Venom mounted on it this past Wednesday and found it to be extremely accurate and pleasant to shoot.

Would I trust it for anything other than range games? Not a chance, but the concept is excellent and I understand why you purchased the pistol.

I concur on all counts.

I was actually just pointing out that a proper standard exists. Ideally, everyone would use such a standard.

[FreedomFries]

I bought a P320 compact with manual safety but still waiting to pick it up due to new rules in my state effective last year (license holders no longer exempt from wait). Meanwhile, I figured I'd use a range rental to see what a range beater P320 is capable of at 25 yards. Shot 5 different 5 round groups ranging from about 2.5" to 3.5" off hand. First group cold was just under 3". I typically get about a 4" group at 25 yards with a 92FS, about 4-6" with a Glock.

The trigger felt fantastic. Probably one of the best striker fired stock triggers I've ever felt. I didn't feel any stacking or grit, just a short, light take up followed by crisp break. I was suspicious because Glock and M&P all have a stacking sensation in the take up as the firing pin block is disabled during trigger pull. Took the slide off and it looked to me like the firing pin block was stuck in the lifted position, I'm guessing due to powder residue. I could not get it to reset even after manually pulling the striker rearwards. Striker was free to move back and forth allowing the firing pin to protrude from the breech face. It was a dirty rental, but I've never seen a Glock or M&P firing pin block seized like this in person. Is there some aspect of the P320 design that I'm not aware of such that the firing pin block doesn't reset with the slide off even when the striker is drawn back?

Accurate though.

[mrozowjj]

Believe me when I say that I understand your frustration, as does everyone who participated in the thread I am sure. Man!! That's a lot of brass shavings!! I am glad SIG is looking to get the damn thing straightened out finally, and that all your due diligence seems to be paying off.

Please keep us posted, and the best of luck to you.

I think that's actually the factory grease or unburnt powder. The trigger bar broke inside the first 500 rounds.

There is a part of me that thinks I'm done with the gun even if they do fix it. I'll just feel better about selling it to someone if they do manage to make it not suck.

[1slow]

Th following were meant for dealing with people but apply to Sig and others.

When someone shows you their true face, believe them, the 1st time. Do not wait for the 17th time.

Behavior is truth.

When you put something out of your life, for good reason, do not let it back in.

[KevH]

Th following were meant for dealing with people but apply to Sig and others.

When someone shows you their true face, believe them, the 1st time. Do not wait for the 17th time.

Behavior is truth.

When you put something out of your life, for good reason, do not let it back in.

Sage advice

[1slow]

Sage advice

Thanks.
Paid for with pain and scar tissue.

[kitten_frenzy]

Sig USA is a joke

[FreedomFries]

I just wanted to add that I learned the stuck firing pin block I observed on a rental P320 was due to a broken striker safety spring. Estimated round count was about 20K-30K, possibly more. In this context, it's much more understandable and could probably be avoided by changing the striker assembly at the recommended interval.

[HCM]

I think that's actually the factory grease or unburnt powder. The trigger bar broke inside the first 500 rounds.

There is a part of me that thinks I'm done with the gun even if they do fix it. I'll just feel better about selling it to someone if they do manage to make it not suck.

At this point getting rid of it is probably for the best as you will no longer “trust” the gun. It’s illogical since it’s an inanimate object but it will be real in your head.


https://youtu.be/kpC69qIe02E

[mrozowjj]

At this point getting rid of it is probably for the best as you will no longer “trust” the gun. It’s illogical since it’s an inanimate object but it will be real in your head.



I think you are right and I'm already intending to sell it when I get it back. I'll just feel less guilty about selling it if they fix it because I won't feel like I'm passing off my trash to someone else.

Honestly the whole experience has me second guessing the P365 as well... even though mine seems to work.

[mrozowjj]

The tech called me today to say they shot the gun at 25 yards and got 2.5" and they claim they did nothing to the gun which I find hard to believe.

They offered to mount a Romeo 1 Pro at a discount if I thought that would help things. I told him that will not be necessary as I will be selling the gun.

I don't know how they could get something that far off from what I've been getting without changing the gun or the ammo.

Either way fuck this gun.

[tlong17]

The tech called me today to say they shot the gun at 25 yards and got 2.5" and they claim they did nothing to the gun which I find hard to believe.

They offered to mount a Romeo 1 Pro at a discount if I thought that would help things. I told him that will not be necessary as I will be selling the gun.

I don't know how they could get something that far off from what I've been getting without changing the gun or the ammo.

Either way fuck this gun.

I’ll be keeping an eye on the PF classifieds! Hope to see it there.

[mrozowjj]

I’ll be keeping an eye on the PF classifieds! Hope to see it there.

Can't list it here and even if I could I wouldn't want to ship it. I have some local forums I'd sell it on.

[tlong17]

Gotcha. Well I hope you find a buyer fast and get what you need to out of it.

[0ddl0t]

The tech called me today to say they shot the gun at 25 yards and got 2.5" and they claim they did nothing to the gun which I find hard to believe.

On my early P365's trip back for extraction issues, Sig claimed to have found nothing wrong and done nothing but upon its return, I discovered brand new magazines and that the feed ramp and chamber had been chamfered & polished. Many others have reported similar undocumented changes, so I'd at least shoot your P320 when you get it back to see if it has been fixed.

[tlong17]

Although it’s too late, I can say that for the Legion specifically, you can call Sig to request they replace the LCI barrel with a non-LCI barrel. LCI barrel throws a lot of gas on any mounted optic. I found for myself that the new barrel had noticeably tighter groups at 25 yards. Others on benos forums have reported the same. It was already accurate to begin with in my case sample, but the non-LCI barrel made a difference. I don’t know if it’s because they had to fit it better or what.

[Nephrology]

(the LE only SKU).

Vaguely tangential question - do the other big service pistol manufacturers have LE only SKUs as well? I know I've heard of other companies doing this (e.g. Remmy with the 870P series) but I don't think I am aware of Glock, S&W, etc doing the same. Am I wrong?

[psalms144.1]

I'm unaware of other manufacturers making LE SKUs except in response to specific contract requirements. I know there's no difference between a Blue Label Gen5 G19 and a Red Label Gen5 G19 except for the color of the label on the box... Same with S&W - they make LE SKUs that come with NS and three mags, but there are no internal or manufacturing differences between those and commercial pistols, AFAIK.

[CWM11B]

I'm unaware of other manufacturers making LE SKUs except in response to specific contract requirements. I know there's no difference between a Blue Label Gen5 G19 and a Red Label Gen5 G19 except for the color of the label on the box... Same with S&W - they make LE SKUs that come with NS and three mags, but there are no internal or manufacturing differences between those and commercial pistols, AFAIK.

My understanding and experience as well. Smith and Glock LE SKUs mostly mean night sights and three mags

[JBP55]

My understanding and experience as well. Smith and Glock LE SKUs mostly mean night sights and three mags

All but the slim line Glocks come with 3 magazines and night sights are optional on all including those sold to LEA's.

[CWM11B]

Was not aware of that. Glock used to do the two mag deal, but I haven't bought a non blue label for years and havent paid attention to regular retail ones. Good deal.

[Robert Mitchum]

Rented 226 today found it easy to be accurate for my shooting level.

The top part IDPA Target 25 Yards all in DA 10 rounds

5 Rounds on the IDPA is a Wizard Drill all rounds 2.5. seconds or less

Other Target 20 yards 50 rounds first round DA followed by single action from concealment

I am not on the level of most on here but I was very happy with the results today.

[StraitR]

On my early P365's trip back for extraction issues, Sig claimed to have found nothing wrong and done nothing but upon its return, I discovered brand new magazines and that the feed ramp and chamber had been chamfered & polished. Many others have reported similar undocumented changes, so I'd at least shoot your P320 when you get it back to see if it has been fixed.

"Undocumented changes" are easy to deny. This is just Sig being Sig.

To anyone surprised by this, you and I have a rich Uncle in Nigeria that just passed away and left us $52,000,00.00. Contact me and I'll tell you how to get you your half.

[mrozowjj]

On my early P365's trip back for extraction issues, Sig claimed to have found nothing wrong and done nothing but upon its return, I discovered brand new magazines and that the feed ramp and chamber had been chamfered & polished. Many others have reported similar undocumented changes, so I'd at least shoot your P320 when you get it back to see if it has been fixed.

Man that sounds shady as fuck. Like either your shop is so bad about about documenting changes that one tech doesn't know the other tech did anything or they intentionally lie about it... for what purpose? To gaslight customers into believing the gun never had any problem to begin with? Neither option is appealing and either options make me not want to trust Sig or this gun in particular at all. I learned my lesson. Never going to buy another Sig in my lifetime.


My understanding and experience as well. Smith and Glock LE SKUs mostly mean night sights and three mags

I'm GSSF so I can buy 1 blue label Glock a year. There is nothing different on the gun except they used to come with a 3rd mag back in the day when regular ones came with 2 and a blue label on the box. Some have night sights and some don't depending on the SKU.


"Undocumented changes" are easy to deny. This is just Sig being Sig.

To anyone surprised by this, you and I have a rich Uncle in Nigeria that just passed away and left us $52,000,00.00. Contact me and I'll tell you how to get you your half.



I'm not sure I understand your meaning in that undocumented changes are easy to deny?

[ST911]

Vaguely tangential question - do the other big service pistol manufacturers have LE only SKUs as well? I know I've heard of other companies doing this (e.g. Remmy with the 870P series) but I don't think I am aware of Glock, S&W, etc doing the same. Am I wrong?

The sku is just one part of the equation. Even within a sku, there may be intentional variances in product features and grade in a production run/lot/band and additional coding applies. Knowing those or being able to ID the tells can be handy. The variances may or may not be meaningful. The more meaningful they are, the more likely you are to hear a lie.


On my early P365's trip back for extraction issues, Sig claimed to have found nothing wrong and done nothing but upon its return, I discovered brand new magazines and that the feed ramp and chamber had been chamfered & polished. Many others have reported similar undocumented changes, so I'd at least shoot your P320 when you get it

Also common.

[call_me_ski]

There was one photo in the Sig P320 upgrade thread that someone lined up 6 P320 slides and photographed the inside of of all the slides next to one another. They were 4 different milling patterns for the slides. Sig is the absolute king of the in-line change.

[UNK]

Since we are are on the subject of accuracy Sig Armorer has a pkg called Superfit. The test target was one hole at 12 yards shot offhand. If I could see well enough to take advantage of that level of precision I would have already ordered it.

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