PDA

View Full Version : What length SBR for 5.56



Jay
05-03-2012, 11:53 PM
First off I should of spent the money I used for the Trust and am using on the Stamp for a case of 9mm and a class or 2, but SBR & Supressor fever have taken hold.

That being rather shamefully stated here is my situation, the trust is drafted and I had to place something in the trust in order for it to be 'solvent' so I picked my existing N4 gen 2 forged lower off of my 16" Recce Lo-Pro. So in order to send in the Form 1 I have to pick a length at this point I am pretty sure I want a 12.5" upper with Noveske's new NSR rail. What I am trying to achieve with this rifle is basically what I would consider a "Handi-Rifle" great all around general purpose, relatively light weight "without sacrificing reliability / functionality" and reliable POA/POI out to 250-300 Yards. I will be getting a 1-4x optic for it "either NF or Trijicon" And eventually a small dedicated 5.56 can "I am not looking to do anything more than take the 'rudeness' out of a 5.56 SBR".

So here are my questions is 12.5" the right length for what I want the gun to do?

How bad am I going to regret not getting a switchblock when I do get a dedicated 5.56 Can? "They don't fit under the NSR"

Side notes:
A factory 8" .300 Blk SBR will be coming home at some point in the next 2 years "with configuration leaning towards what is stated in the defensive carbine thread. "Ammo is still just a bit too high for my tastes and I know me delaying my purchase isn't helping this matter"

A Form 4 will be submitted before the end of the summer on an SDN6 which will eventually live on the 8" listed above.

Lastly a buddy of mine and I want to start attending appleseed events next year, how big a schmuck am I going to look like showing up with an SBR for the Centerfire events? "Assuming the ATF gets me my stamp in time"

As always any and all thoughts, criticisms and suggestions are greatly appreciated from this community.

Thanks,
Jay

jaywade
05-04-2012, 04:05 AM
the shorter the better ON THE FORM ...... becasue if you put 6in on the form you can use a 6 in 9 in 10.5 in 12.5 14.5, or 16 in (you can always go bigger w/ no more paperwork)...if you fill our your form 1, or 4 on a 12.5 and then think I want to go a bit smaller you woudl have to fill out another form...so always go as small as possible for the form's sake. Just saves you time and money.

Jason

Jay
05-04-2012, 10:27 AM
the shorter the better ON THE FORM ...... becasue if you put 6in on the form you can use a 6 in 9 in 10.5 in 12.5 14.5, or 16 in (you can always go bigger w/ no more paperwork)...if you fill our your form 1, or 4 on a 12.5 and then think I want to go a bit smaller you woudl have to fill out another form...so always go as small as possible for the form's sake. Just saves you time and money.

Jason

It's my understanding that as long as the rifle can be readily converted back to the length listed on the Form1 an SBR is an SBR, so basically you end up married to the upper "or an upper of that length" for as long as you own the weapon.

If I am wrong about this someone please chime in but it's my understanding you never get the same answer twice about NFA items from any two people "including those work within the ATF".

I also have little to no desire to shoot anything less than 10.5" with 5.56 and due to the fact that "Multi" can no longer be listed under caliber a 5" 9mm upper is going to be a no go without sending additional change letters in to the ATF "which take longer to get a response than it takes them to issue a stamp".

The only short 5.56 barrel that interests me would be a cheap 7" or 8" that I would run a ciener kit in and use for plinking, but again technically thats a caliber conversion.

I was originally going to keep this rifle at a 'Stock' 16" but have since decided that if I am going to own an AR pattern rifle it is going to be registered as an SBR immediately, as constructive possession charges aren't my idea of a good time.

That being said I am sure at some point I will have a lower that will be designated personally as a range toy and will see all sorts of sillyness, but that is not the goal or purpose of this particular build.

Thanks,
J

SamuelBLong
05-04-2012, 11:30 AM
The ATF only requires sending them notification if it is a permanent change in configuration.

List the barrel length and caliber that you will initially use with the SBR (generally the one its most likely to be kept in). After its approved change whatever you want.

Send a change letter only if you are permanently changing the length or caliber. If you do send one, send it registered mail, staple the recpt to a copy of your letter, then keep that with the Form 1.

If you're really worried about it, send them a letter notifying them that you have multiple uppers for the gun and list all the barrel lengths, calibers and OAL's.

Jay
05-04-2012, 11:40 AM
The ATF only requires sending them notification if it is a permanent change in configuration.

List the barrel length and caliber that you will initially use with the SBR (generally the one its most likely to be kept in). After its approved change whatever you want.

Send a change letter only if you are permanently changing the length or caliber. If you do send one, send it registered mail, staple the recpt to a copy of your letter, then keep that with the Form 1.

That is basically the way I understood it, so as long as I keep the original upper on hand and keep it in that configuration most of the time, I shouldn't have any issues.
Thank you for confirming this, and I will now go buy a lottery ticket as you are the 3rd person who has given me the same info in as many days about the ATF/NFA.

RobG
05-04-2012, 11:46 AM
Jay,

I am undertaking a similar project. I am registering the lower as a 300 aac. I am looking at the 10” rogue hunter for the upper. I will then eventually match it with a 10.5“ MK18 upper in .223. This will give both similar handling characteristics and allow sub caliber training with the cheaper 5.56 ammo. It also addresses the barrel length/overall length questions for the ATF. My plan is to use a 7.62 can for both platforms. Still have not decided between the AAC SDN-6 or their new 90 tooth can.

Keep in mind, this is also my first SBR project and I am by no means an expert. Feel free to PM me to compare notes as this has been a learning process for me as well.

RobG

SamuelBLong
05-04-2012, 11:59 AM
So here are my questions is 12.5" the right length for what I want the gun to do?

How bad am I going to regret not getting a switchblock when I do get a dedicated 5.56 Can? "They don't fit under the NSR"

Side notes:
A factory 8" .300 Blk SBR will be coming home at some point in the next 2 years "with configuration leaning towards what is stated in the defensive carbine thread. "Ammo is still just a bit too high for my tastes and I know me delaying my purchase isn't helping this matter"

A Form 4 will be submitted before the end of the summer on an SDN6 which will eventually live on the 8" listed above.

Lastly a buddy of mine and I want to start attending appleseed events next year, how big a schmuck am I going to look like showing up with an SBR for the Centerfire events? "Assuming the ATF gets me my stamp in time"

As always any and all thoughts, criticisms and suggestions are greatly appreciated from this community.

Thanks,
Jay

To answer your other questions:

The short guns are quite capable. I routinely make hits at 400 with my 10.5" Noveske EDB on my M16. Suppressed, my gun comes in just about the same OAL as a standard 14.5" M4.

12.5" is a good all around length as it retains a little more velocity than the 10.5's. Just be aware of the length when you add the suppressor back on. You will be close to an 18" setup, depending on the suppressor.

While the switch block seems like a nice feature, and work well, I've never found a need for them. I guess the venting gas just doesn't bother me.

As for the appleseed events... go, learn, and don't worry about what other people think. Its the rifle you have.

Odin Bravo One
05-04-2012, 12:05 PM
I played the "swap uppers" game for about a year. It got old pretty fast. For me, it has been much simpler to just do the entire gun when I decide to do a short barrel.

Jay
05-04-2012, 03:20 PM
Feel free to PM me to compare notes as this has been a learning process for me as well.

RobG

PM Sent.

Samuel,
Thank you for all the info and thought's, maybe a 10.5" is the way to go as the OAL with can had me a little concerned. That is why I was considering getting a 'Mini' or 'Short' can down the road.

Sean M,
Not quite sure what you mean, But i believe you are saying that it is easier to have multiple SBR's instead of only 1 with a 'Bunch' of uppers? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks to all, looking forward to hearing additional thoughts from other members.

rob_s
05-05-2012, 05:11 AM
If you already have a 16" upper/gun then IMO the way to go is as short as is reliably possible. Several years ago that meant 11.5" for most people, 12.5" for some. But with the rise in popularity of SBRs I would say that 10.3-10.5" has become virtually as reliable as those guns 1-2" longer. As an only gun I think the 12.5" is a great solution, especially if it's in 6.8 SPC.

As for a can, the Switchblock is a great solution if you're going to be going back and forth, suppressed to non-suppressed. I have personally come to find suppressors to be a complete waste of money FOR ME but if I was going to go that route again I would set about assembling a dedicated suppressed gun with a direct-attach can or with a QD can in 7.62 so that the complete waste of money was spread across multiple firearms. If someone... anyone... would come out with a QD 7.62 can in the same size as a 5.56 can I *might* change my tune about cans, again simply because I can spread the money wasted across a lot of guns.

If you want to shoot suppressed get a .22 or a 9mm which are both able to be made "hollywood quiet" or very nearly so.

Odin Bravo One
05-05-2012, 05:33 AM
Jay,

that is exactly what I mean. It is simpler for me to just have another, separate SBR than it is to play "what paperwork does the ATF want for this configuration?" game. Even inside the organization, they can't make up their minds as to what is legal one week to the next.

And while I don't doubt for one second that getting hits is possible at extended ranges with an SBR, I can tell you that if you are shooting anything other than steel or paper, whatever you hit with it won't be overly impressed. Right tool for the right job. 5.56mm out of a short barrel is not the right tool for any serious shooting beyond about 100 yards.