9mm 1911 and the 10-8 Extractor Test

[Bill]

For the past few months I've been shooting a Springfield Combat Operator, which is in 9mm. Its my first 9mm 1911. I have moderate experience tuning and running .45 1911's and understand the basics.

The Combat Operators come with a nice bar stock extractor, but the thing had no tension on it from the factory. Gun ran but ejection was erratic, including the odd brass off the forehead. I did my usual light polishing on the front lobe, and retensioned the thing to what I'd call "medium." Gun runs fine (not more brass to face) with a mag in it, but chokes every round without a mag in the gun.

I put a little more tension on it, its now a pretty firm fit; holds the casing flat against the breech face and the slide can be rotated at all angles without it falling out. Gun still runs fine with a mag, and I got 2 out of 10 rounds to eject properly (nice arc to the 3 oclock) without a mag in it, but the other 8 choked, sideways stovepipes.

I'm hesitant to put even more tension on this fucker for fear its gonna start inducing feeding issues. I've never had to tension .45 guns to this point to get them to run properly. Is there something specifically about the geometry in a 9mm gun that needs additional attention? Is the 10-8 extractor test not viable on a 9mm gun for some unknown (to me) reason?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Joe in PNG]

On my Colt, I had to stone off a bit of the inside of the extractor, where it met the slide coming out into the chamber- both on the original Colt, and the replacement Wilson.
It helped stop the stovepiping, but I'm still not happy with the extraction.

Will also follow with interest.

[Greg]

Is the tip of the hook making contact with the case?

The only contact should be the tensioning wall and the outer rim of the case.

[NPV]

^Yes to that

Also a 9mm extractor typically is going to feel much tighter going into the tunnel because the diameter of the 9mm case is smaller than the .45 the gun was designed around. So in order to get the proper tension the extractor requires a more extreme bend thus making installation more difficult and giving the perception of over tightened extractor.

I would recommend making life easy and getting a Weigand gauge. If the extraction is confirmed to be tensioned properly you can move onto the next possible issue. The spot the above poster referred to in which they had to remove some material is called the locating pad and may require some filing to add additional tension.

Forgot to add you may want to check if the extractor is clocking in the tunnel before adjusting the tension.

[45dotACP]

The above advice is good advice. You'll have to spend some time with a file to get the gun running the way you want. File down the fitting pad and reduce the claw if you must. Or just file down the fitting pad and have the claw contact the case groove. Either way will work for many thousands of rounds

But remember that the 10-8 extractor test doesn't just test your extractor.

If the ejector is not correct, it won't matter how you got the extractor shaped.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[ranger]

I have a SA 1911 Range Officer in 9mm. I had some extraction issues so I went to the EGW heavy duty extractor https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/action-parts/extractor-parts/extractors/1911-heavy-duty-extractor-prod23561.aspx

That said, I suspect my extraction issues were ammo related but my FTEs did go away.

[p7fl]

Is the 10-8 extractor test not viable on a 9mm gun for some unknown (to me) reason?
Thanks in advance for any insight.

I recently took a 1911/2011 class with Hilton. Part of the class included the extractor test. My 12 year old single stack 9mm STI ran the test without issue. The 9mm STI double stacks and Wilson edc x9 worked as well.

[Bill]

Is the tip of the hook making contact with the case?

The only contact should be the tensioning wall and the outer rim of the case.

Yes, that geometry all appears to be correct: Only the inner wall of the extractor channel contacts the rim of the case. No other contact.



^Yes to that

Also a 9mm extractor typically is going to feel much tighter going into the tunnel because the diameter of the 9mm case is smaller than the .45 the gun was designed around. So in order to get the proper tension the extractor requires a more extreme bend thus making installation more difficult and giving the perception of over tightened extractor.

I would recommend making life easy and getting a Weigand gauge. If the extraction is confirmed to be tensioned properly you can move onto the next possible issue. The spot the above poster referred to in which they had to remove some material is called the locating pad and may require some filing to add additional tension.

Forgot to add you may want to check if the extractor is clocking in the tunnel before adjusting the tension.

Initial inspection showed no significant clocking or forward/aft movement. Gonna check this again


The above advice is good advice. You'll have to spend some time with a file to get the gun running the way you want. File down the fitting pad and reduce the claw if you must. Or just file down the fitting pad and have the claw contact the case groove. Either way will work for many thousands of rounds

But remember that the 10-8 extractor test doesn't just test your extractor.

If the ejector is not correct, it won't matter how you got the extractor shaped.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I'm afraid addressing the ejector is out of knowledge set. I confirmed its solid in the frame, and isn't being contacted by an over inserted magazine, but beyond that I'm not sure what I'm looking for.


Thanks to all that have commented so far! I think the first thing to do is just add a little more tension and see what happens. Plus I'll check for any slop in the lock up with the fps.

[JHC]

^Yes to that

Also a 9mm extractor typically is going to feel much tighter going into the tunnel because the diameter of the 9mm case is smaller than the .45 the gun was designed around. So in order to get the proper tension the extractor requires a more extreme bend thus making installation more difficult and giving the perception of over tightened extractor.

I would recommend making life easy and getting a Weigand gauge. If the extraction is confirmed to be tensioned properly you can move onto the next possible issue. The spot the above poster referred to in which they had to remove some material is called the locating pad and may require some filing to add additional tension.

Forgot to add you may want to check if the extractor is clocking in the tunnel before adjusting the tension.


This X 100. The Weigand tool is fantastic and a must have for me now. NPV what does "clocking in the tunnel" mean?

My Lipsey's Combat Operator 9mm extractor created all this frustration for me too at first. Dave Sams who super accurized it, offered me general advice to remove the extractor and clean the channel with each cleaning - offered as generic 1911 advice - regardless of caliber.

Well that's a major PIA prying on the extractor hook to get it out and just as PIA driving the bitch back in. I got to thinking that this in and out kept decreasing my extractor tension so the pistol had a short life span of smooth running ejection.

Now I put a heavy tensioned bend with the marvelous Weigand tool and the pistol runs great with good consistent ejection. It runs and runs as well as my superlative .45s (Sams .45, CQB and SA LB Operator). I have decided to not routinely remove the 9mm's extractor for routine cleaning (approximately 500-800 round intervals) and I'll live with the guilt.

[NPV]

This X 100. The Weigand tool is fantastic and a must have for me now. NPV what does "clocking in the tunnel" mean?

My Lipsey's Combat Operator 9mm extractor created all this frustration for me too at first. Dave Sams who super accurized it, offered me general advice to remove the extractor and clean the channel with each cleaning - offered as generic 1911 advice - regardless of caliber.

Well that's a major PIA prying on the extractor hook to get it out and just as PIA driving the bitch back in. I got to thinking that this in and out kept decreasing my extractor tension so the pistol had a short life span of smooth running ejection.

Now I put a heavy tensioned bend with the marvelous Weigand tool and the pistol runs great with good consistent ejection. It runs and runs as well as my superlative .45s (Sams .45, CQB and SA LB Operator). I have decided to not routinely remove the 9mm's extractor for routine cleaning (approximately 500-800 round intervals) and I'll live with the guilt.

I think Dawson has a tool that makes removing 9mm extractors a breeze. I honestly only remove mine every 2kish rounds. I’ve checked after 500 and there simply isn’t enough buildup to justify cleaning the tunnel that often IMO.

As for the clocking, that just means the extractor is rotating in the tunnel. So when the handgun is fired and goes through it’s extraction/ejection cycle the extractor claw can rotate into a position that is less than optimal causing extraction or ejection issues. Usually a loose fitting FPS is the culprit and it can be rectified by fitting a new EGW or similar FPS. But I’ve seen extractors with the FPS slot (not sure if that the correct terminology) filed out way too much causing the same issue.

When in doubt I just refit both, they’re cheap enough and I prefer fitting them to each other at the same time.

[Bill]

This X 100. The Weigand tool is fantastic and a must have for me now. NPV what does "clocking in the tunnel" mean?

My Lipsey's Combat Operator 9mm extractor created all this frustration for me too at first. Dave Sams who super accurized it, offered me general advice to remove the extractor and clean the channel with each cleaning - offered as generic 1911 advice - regardless of caliber.

Well that's a major PIA prying on the extractor hook to get it out and just as PIA driving the bitch back in. I got to thinking that this in and out kept decreasing my extractor tension so the pistol had a short life span of smooth running ejection.

Now I put a heavy tensioned bend with the marvelous Weigand tool and the pistol runs great with good consistent ejection. It runs and runs as well as my superlative .45s (Sams .45, CQB and SA LB Operator). I have decided to not routinely remove the 9mm's extractor for routine cleaning (approximately 500-800 round intervals) and I'll live with the guilt.

Clocking in the tunnel means that the extractor has room once installed to rotate a little: If the hook typically points at due 9 o'clock in the gun, imagine it having enough wiggle to rotate between 8 and 10. The result is inconsistent tension and engagement with the case rim. The fix is a fitted fps that holds the extractor more precisely/firmly in the rear.

I've been wondering the same thing about the force necessary to pull the extractor; pushing the hook over to pull it and popping it back in might eat up a little tension each time. If this ends up being a thing, filing that tab down a should solve it as it'll give the whole unit a little more room to hook-in while installed (and being taken in and out)

[NPV]

JHC Bill

https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-1911-extractor-removal-tool/

[JHC]

JHC Bill

https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-1911-extractor-removal-tool/

And inexpensive to boot!

[Bill]

JHC Bill

https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-1911-extractor-removal-tool/

See!!! Capitalism DOES work!

[ccmdfd]

Every time I think about using a 1911 for carry (and I have quite a few in 9mm and .38 Super), a thread like this comes along and after reading I go; nope, sticking with Glock/Beretta/etc/etc.

Then again, I'm not that mechanically inclined.



cc

[Bergeron]

I'm not mechanically inclined either, but a 1911 that's set up correctly will basically stay that way over long round counts. I can detail strip my 1911s but I've never attempted to tune anything about them.

May I offer a 1911 extractor-related experience and make a suggestion? My Delta Elite was a reliablity nightmare when I got it- it couldn't make it through a magazine of factory ammo without one or more 3-point stoppages, wedged hard up against the chamber, feed ramp, and breechface. I was living in Houston at the time, so it was easy to drop it off at Briley and ask them to fix it, and to make sure it could pass the 10-8 Extractor Test, which it now does.

I might suggest a similar approach. Back during Todd's Springfield Operator test, there was a brief discussion about how different shops set up 9mm 1911 extractors. Wilson was mentioned in high regard, and you can send them your gun, and they'll fit and tune their own extractor to the gun for what seems like a reasonable price. You could keep the old extractor as a spare.

[M2CattleCo]

The thing I found with 9mms is to not remove the extractor. Ever.

Pull the firing pin stop and the extractor moves around enough to blow brake cleaner through the tunnel and blast out any gunk.

[wvincent]

The thing I found with 9mms is to not remove the extractor. Ever.

Pull the firing pin stop and the extractor moves around enough to blow brake cleaner through the tunnel and blast out any gunk.

Why? Does it make all the magic leak out?
Seriously though, I would like to hear your thoughts on this as I am on my first 9mm 2011, but certainly not my first 1911 (all in .45)

[45dotACP]

When a 1911 is set up, it will tend to stay set up.

My Springfield 1911 is my competition gun and has never had a feedway stoppage. I recently ticked past 8,000 rounds with it though so it's still fairly new.

I have a Kimber(snert) that was a problem until I did some mild extractor tuning. Now the thing easily passes the 10-8 test and I've been using it as my single stack minor gun.

Set the gun up right, then shoot it til something breaks...but don't be surprised if nothing breaks.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[M2CattleCo]

Why? Does it make all the magic leak out?
Seriously though, I would like to hear your thoughts on this as I am on my first 9mm 2011, but certainly not my first 1911 (all in .45)


Because it has to be bent so much to get tension on the case it's easy unbend 'em when you take it out. They don't just slip out like a 45.

[wvincent]

Because it has to be bent so much to get tension on the case it's easy unbend 'em when you take it out. They don't just slip out like a 45.

Ahh, gotcha. So hypothetical question: If the extractor releases the casing at around 26#, per the Weigand gauge, is the 10-8 test still applicable?

This is a great thread, reminds me I need to lay in some spare parts, which I stupidly gave away when I divested myself of all things 1911.

[M2CattleCo]

I would say it's relevant. It shows that the gun is set up to eject without the aid of the top round in the magazine.

[Bucky]

Think of the Aflac insurance commercial duck, but instead hear Aftec.

Seriously, I don’t know why these things aren’t more popular. No bending, no tweaking, and they apply pressure more linear.

[JHC]

The thing I found with 9mms is to not remove the extractor. Ever.

Pull the firing pin stop and the extractor moves around enough to blow brake cleaner through the tunnel and blast out any gunk.

Ha! WHY WASN'T I TOLD!!!! Love this. Thanks and thanks again NPV

[JHC]

I think Dawson has a tool that makes removing 9mm extractors a breeze. I honestly only remove mine every 2kish rounds. I’ve checked after 500 and there simply isn’t enough buildup to justify cleaning the tunnel that often IMO.

As for the clocking, that just means the extractor is rotating in the tunnel. So when the handgun is fired and goes through it’s extraction/ejection cycle the extractor claw can rotate into a position that is less than optimal causing extraction or ejection issues. Usually a loose fitting FPS is the culprit and it can be rectified by fitting a new EGW or similar FPS. But I’ve seen extractors with the FPS slot (not sure if that the correct terminology) filed out way too much causing the same issue.

When in doubt I just refit both, they’re cheap enough and I prefer fitting them to each other at the same time.

Subscribed to this thread. Life just got soooo much easier. :o

[45dotACP]

Think of the Aflac insurance commercial duck, but instead hear Aftec.

Seriously, I don’t know why these things aren’t more popular. No bending, no tweaking, and they apply pressure more linear.Aftec really is a miracle in Technicolor. Lots of guys use them to get their 2011s running correctly and they use coil springs instead of leaf springs, but I think the main thing is that most people aren't willing to drop a hundred bucks on an extractor when you can buy a EGW HD which will hold tension for nearly forever.



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[Gary1911A1]

I was having issues with a 1911 9MM's extractor too. Purchased a Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor and tested it today. It too passes the 10-8 test and I didn't even adjust it before test fire as it dry cycled loaded ammo so well.

[NPV]

I was having issues with a 1911 9MM's extractor too. Purchased a Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor and tested it today. It too passes the 10-8 test and I didn't even adjust it before test fire as it dry cycled loaded ammo so well.

Powerball is almost $400m you should probably buy a ticket

[Bucky]

Aftec really is a miracle in Technicolor. Lots of guys use them to get their 2011s running correctly and they use coil springs instead of leaf springs, but I think the main thing is that most people aren't willing to drop a hundred bucks on an extractor when you can buy a EGW HD which will hold tension for nearly forever.


Going rate is $85, but I get your point, more than twice a high end traditional extractor. However, some of the people buying traditional extractors are buying the tensioning tools as well, which reduces the cost difference.

When I had a scope mount directly above my ejection port, even the best traditional extractor wasn’t cutting it.

[MDFA]

I've fit a lot of .45 Extractors all Wilson Combat Bulletproofs. There is an art and science to tuning a 1911 extractor. When it comes to a 9mm 1911 it involves a bit of Voodoo.....

[Jason Burton]

A 1911 extractor, regardless of caliber, needs to control the fired case in the same manner. Often times a 9mm extractor may not have enough height and/or range of motion to control the fired case as it slides down the breech-face during link-down.

You can adjust the range of motion/amount of deflection by modifying the fitting pad behind the extractor hook to allow the hook to move further inward. Be careful that the front of the extractor hook is not contacting the cartridge case.

If the extractor is set up correctly another place to look is the ejector to insure it has enough contact with the case. With a round under the extractor and pushed as high on the breech face as possible will the ejector still contact the case enough to eject it?

[45dotACP]

.

You can adjust the range of motion/amount of deflection by modifying the fitting pad behind the extractor hook to allow the hook to move further inward. Be careful that the front of the extractor hook is not contacting the cartridge case.

If the extractor is set up correctly another place to look is the ejector to insure it has enough contact with the case. With a round under the extractor and pushed as high on the breech face as possible will the ejector still contact the case enough to eject it?

By this, do you mean that only the tensioning wall of the extractor should be in contact with the case? Or do you mean that the nose of the extractor should not be contacting the beveled part of the shell casing?

Also, for 9mm 1911s how long of an ejector do you tend to run? I have seen extended ejectors before, but the one on my Colt Commander is longer even than a standard extended ejector.

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[Jason Burton]

By this, do you mean that only the tensioning wall of the extractor should be in contact with the case?

There are two methods (opposing methods??) on what part of the extractor should contact the case. The easiest answer is this, on a 9mm I want as much contact with the case as possible during the entire firing cycle without forcing the case to sit off the breech-face or resulting in any unde impact to the extractor. Additionally, in 9mm I have found some extractors result in more/better case contact than others due to having a taller (vertically) hook.



Or do you mean that the nose of the extractor should not be contacting the beveled part of the shell casing?

Yes, the extractor (for any caliber) should not be making contact with the angled portion of the case forward of the rim.



Also, for 9mm 1911s how long of an ejector do you tend to run? I have seen extended ejectors before, but the one on my Colt Commander is longer even than a standard extended ejector.

A 9mm ejector will be longer than that of a 45ACP. I personally want the ejector long enough that it contacts and begins to move the fired case before the next round in the magazine moves high enough to contact it.

[farscott]

Think of the Aflac insurance commercial duck, but instead hear Aftec.

Seriously, I don’t know why these things aren’t more popular. No bending, no tweaking, and they apply pressure more linear.

I have had good experience with the AFTEC extractor in 9x19 guns with the possible exception of getting the extractor into the slide. I inevitably am one hand short as I need one hand to slip a screwdriver into the channel, one to insert the extractor, and one hand to hold a light in the right place so I can be sure a spring did not pop out of position. I finally opted for a small bench vise and fiber optic lights.

Once the extractor is properly installed in the slide, extraction has been positive. I have a few spare spring sets for the extractor, but, so far, none have been needed. I detail strip the slide every year or 5,000 rounds (whichever comes first) as the extractor channel does get dirty. It is a bit of a hassle and nothing ever to do in the field as the springs are tiny. The Wilson Combat extractor looks appealing as there are no springs to get lost.

[StraitR]

There are two methods (opposing methods??) on what part of the extractor should contact the case. The easiest answer is this, on a 9mm I want as much contact with the case as possible during the entire firing cycle without forcing the case to sit off the breech-face or resulting in any unde impact to the extractor. Additionally, in 9mm I have found some extractors result in more/better case contact than others due to having a taller (vertically) hook.




Yes, the extractor (for any caliber) should not be making contact with the angled portion of the case forward of the rim.




A 9mm ejector will be longer than that of a 45ACP. I personally want the ejector long enough that it contacts and begins to move the fired case before the next round in the magazine moves high enough to contact it.

Thanks, Jason, this is excellent and easily digestible information.

Would you care to share your brand preference for 9mm extractors, the one's you've found to have a taller hook facilitating more/better case contact through the cycle of operation?

[jeep45238]

One of my 9mm 1911's passes flawlessly - absolutely predictable ejection pattern out of a S.A. Range officer 'elite' model straight out of the box (added a dovetail mount red dot)and has an extended ejector. The D.W. Valor is horrific, and without a mag will eject anywhere from straight up, to 9 o'clock, 1,2,3,4,5,6 o'clock, but doesn't choke - it's been through Dan Wesson's custom shop (shorty ejector). Both pass the 'shake it shake it' test with a loaded round, The Valor not as good no matter how much tension is applied, as there's a bit of a jiggle when shook hard. The SA extractor's hook is the only part that makes contact, in the web above the cartridge rim; the Valor is the same, but just barely.

The pad hook on the Valor is keeping the hook away from the centerline compared to the S.A.. Can't remember my terminology right now, but the center 'lug' that strips the round on the bottom of the slide and has the disconnector cut away - I used that as the visual reference between the hook and the centerline as a judge of distance. Judging from this and the info in this thread, it appears the pad on the Valor extractor isn't filed down enough, which isn't allowing for enough deflection. This should mean that while more tension can be applied to the extractor, it can only travel so far into the case, and this creates a limit on how much tension the case itself sees regardless of the extractor tension (past a certain point).

[Jason Burton]

Would you care to share your brand preference for 9mm extractors, the one's you've found to have a taller hook facilitating more/better case contact through the cycle of operation?

Right now I am using Caspian extractors in 9mms.

[Duckysattva]

Resurrecting an old thread but thought it may be appropriate since 9mm 1911s and their extractors seem to be different enough to warrant conversation specific to the caliber and hopefully anyone that runs into the same issue with theirs will be able to find this thread easily as I was given the title.

I've been shooting a Warren Tactical Series 9mm recently and tried the 10-8 Extractor Test as I've been trying to better understand the workings of the 1911 and better myself as an American. The pistol works great with a magazine installed but fails the 10-8 test spectacularly, routinely extracting empty cases from the chamber but not fully ejecting them then crushing the mouth of the empty case against the barrel hood or just dropping them out of the magwell.

I wanted to take a closer look at the extractor and case interface to see what I could see. What I'm seeing and crappy pictures below:

1. Good (maybe too good) tension on the extractor to pin the case to the left guide block. Loaded nor empty cases are easily shaken out. Lots of tension on 9mm extractors appears to be the norm across the board and was suspected to be the case in TLG's test WTS as well https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11835-Todd-s-Warren-1911-s-Guts.

2. Extractor appears to be too long with the nose far enough forward that it's making contact with the rebate and preventing the round from being held square against the breech face. Extractor nose does not appear to be contacting the barrel best I can tell by installing the barrel to index the round on the extractor and check engagement.

3. All of the tension is being applied to the case via the claw vs. the tensioning wall. This seems to be a subject of debate in 9mm 1911 vs. .45 1911 extractor fitting schools of thought; in .45 it seems everyone agrees that the tensioning wall should be making contact with the rim while in 9mm, the claw contacting the inner radius of the rim to provide tension seems to be accepted (due to the smaller diameter of the case?).

4. Bonus observation of latest breakdown is the slide stop engagement at the radii on the barrel lugs seems to leave a bit to be desired but I've only sent ~500 rounds through it at this point so maybe this will even out.

91143

91144

91145

My biggest concern is reliability; the extractor not fitting well bugs me badly and right now, to me is the primary suspect causing failures. I've had 3 stoppages when running the pistol with a mag inserted, 2 were while using the Springfield provided mags and 1 with Wilson Combat ETMs - probably used for 75-80% of the rounds through it.

Should I send this thing back to Springfield outlining the issue with the extractor and request them to make it right or send it to a good smith to fit an extractor and maybe a spare? SACS seems to have mixed reviews of late for Customer Service so it gives me a bit of pause. I'd hate to send it to them to have them function check it with mags and decide it was good to go and send it back without addressing the extractor geometry. Any thoughts on Springfield's responses to things like this from the experts here?

[45dotACP]

I don't know if springfield would make it correctly, because their opinions on the debate of how to fit an extractor might be different than yours...I'd probably attempt to fit a new one myself in a way that doesn't have the nose contact the rebate and has no claw contact either.

Tensioning wall is the way, IMO. But then I'm not a professional gunsmith, just a hobbyist.

You might also want to jump down the rabbit hole on ejector tuning also.

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[Duckysattva]

Deleted, not sure why the double post.

[Bergeron]

I'm in no way any sort of gunsmith- but I would bring the pistol to a gunsmith.

Springfield might fix everything exactly the way you want it, or they might not. My one experience with Springfield's customer service was exceptional, but even if they made it "better", what are the odds that they would make it "as good as you want it to be". Both Wilson and Nighthawk are happy to do reliability work on quality 3rd party guns such as yours.

I've recently acquired a "grail gun" sort of Springfield for myself, and I'll be sending it off to a gunsmith before the end of the week. Not that there's anything "wrong" with the gun, I just want the reliability, accuracy, and durability of the gun to be "maxed out" within my ability to pay.

I bought a used Colt that had (what I'm assuming) were extractor-related malfunctions. I brought it to a smith (Briley, in Houston) and asked for the gun to be made reliable. When I go it back, it easily passed a 10-8 sort of check, and I haven't had issues since. A smith could also identify and address other slight issues that may (or may not) be present in the gun.

At any rate, it certainly looks like a nice piece, and you deserve to have it bring you confidence and joy when you shoot it.