Beretta 92 Hammer spring weight for reliable ignition?

[Rmiked]

I am considering buying the 92 Elite LTT intended for personal defense, perhaps Centurion, possibly full size. In my 92A1 I run the 16# D spring and have never had a light primer strike even with Winchester 124 grain NATO ammo. I was running a WC 14# CS (chrome silicon) hammer spring but with that same NATO ammo experienced a few light strikes. Then switched back to D spring, no issues. Is this the general consensus? Run D spring if it matters? Or are lighter springs reliable if stay away from known hard primer ammo. In other words IF your life depends it, what do you run?

[spence]

I am surprised to hear a 14# having light strikes. I primarily run an M9, it was otherwise stock with a 14# for the first 5500 rounds and nary a problem. Same thing in my 92 compact, first 2500 or so with a 14# hammer spring, no issues. Pretty good mix of Fiocchi, S&B, Federal, UMC, Geco, and a smattering of other stuff including some of the NATO. Went to a TJIB with 13# spring, have around 3500 rounds on the M9 with no issues, and less than 1000 on the 92 compact with no issues.

There's a video from Ernest out there outlining that you should get reliable ignition down to 13# with decent ammo. I carry one of mine daily.

I just picked up an LTT Centurion yesterday, it may get a 14# for a while until I get a trigger job for it, too. I'm no pro, but I'd think if you get reliable ignition with everything but the hardest primers, you might be ok? If it was me, I'd most likely err on the side of caution and bump back up for a defensive unit, though.

[JAH 3rd]

The only change I have made to my commercial M9 has been the installation of a Beretta OEM "D" spring. It has been 100% reliable with all ammo. On my M9, the trigger pull is smooth and consistant from beginning to end. If I was shooting competition I probably would want the least ounce of trigger pull with reliable ignition. But for a range pistol and home defense, I am satisfied with it as is.

[Rmiked]

Yes, I ran Federal, Fiocchi, Remington, Winchester White box, Hornady. No problems ever with 14# spring. But the Winchester NATO 124 I got light strikes with 14# spring. Similar experience with my SIG 226 MK25. Only light strikes with reduced power (Wolf) springs in SIG was NATO ammo. I liked because it has extra pop, a +P load. Shoots great in my 92A1 with D spring and SIG with factory spring. Trigger pull in DA and SA lower in 92A1 with D spring than SIG 226 with factory spring. Probably not a fair comparison. Don’t know of a D spring equivalent for SIG 226. The SIG is a shooter though. The LTT Elite 92 to me looks like the perfect pistol. I’ll look forward to hearing EL’s advice.

[claymore504]

Here is a great video on this put out my Ernest. I have pretty much followed what he says in this video and no issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUoIC4w2rcI&t=180s

[Rmiked]

I watched the video. Excellent. I am gonna switch back from 16# to 14# CS and avoid the NATO spec primers and am confident I’ll have no concerns for personal protection.

[JSGlock34]

In my experience, ignition reliability is not determined by a single factor like spring weight. Instead it is a combination of parts (most notably the hammer spring and trigger bar) and ammunition choice that will determine whether the pistol reliably goes bang. Federal ammunition has given me the best results. Even with like parts, individual pistols may demonstrate different ignition performance.

I have had four Beretta 92s - a commercial M9, a Wilson Combat Brigadier Tactical, a LTT 92G, and a LTT 92G 'Carry Bevel'. I've used the M9 with all OEM parts and the 'D' spring. It has always reliably ignited primers regardless of brand. The latter three custom guns all had LTT trigger tunes, the Carry Bevel also with NP3 (I sold the standard LTT 92G Elite but still own the Carry Bevel version). The Brigadier Tactical and LTT pistols all originally used the Wilson trigger bar, later replaced by the LTT trigger bar. At varying times I've also experimented with the Wilson Combat hammer. The Wilson Combat hammer made zero difference in ignition reliability - if the pistol failed to ignite a primer with the E2 hammer, switching to the Wilson hammer resulted in similar failures.

None of these pistols met my standards for carry reliability with a 12# hammer spring, even with Federal ammunition.

The LTT and Wilson Combat Brigadier Tactical fired reliably with Federal ammunition at 13#. CCI, Speer, Blazer...not so much. I have no qualms carrying either pistol with Federal HST.

The Carry Bevel gun is finicky. Even with a 14# spring it won't light PMC reliably. Right now I'm using a 14# spring with Federal ammunition and getting good results. Still, even with the 14# spring I find the trigger on this pistol smoother and lighter than the other pistols using a 13# spring. Ernest's magic touch paired with the NP3 coating is a great combination.

This is a long way of saying...vet your pistol with your ammunition.

[Rmiked]

JSGlock34, thanks for the detailed experience. I took note that even with a 13# spring you had some ammo (Speer, Blazer) with questionable ignition reliability. In my 92A1 with Beretta standard trigger bar and standard hammer, I have no ignition problems using the WC 14# CS hammer spring and all ammo except the Winchester 124 grain NATO ammo. That stuff must have the hardest primers out there. But the Beretta D spring (16#) has never failed to ignite them. My local gun shop has the LTT Elite from Beretta (not LTT). I am going to look at it tomorrow. It should have the 16# spring. If it has a centered barrel in hood and no stake mark on front sight, I plan on getting it. I also plan on swapping to14# CS hammer spring. I don’t see me getting anymore of the NATO ammo.

[Medusa]

Data point, I have something north 16,000 rounds of Speer lawman through my LTTs and 92 with 13 lb springs and no ammo related ignition issues. None with a lesser amount, couple thousand, of Fiocchi either. I had a few, maybe 5-7, ignition issues with a very dirty and under lubricated Ltt that needed a cleaning, lubrication, and a fresh recoil spring.

[beenalongtime]

I like this thread, as I recently asked LTT about what spring he recommends/works reliably with .22's as I keep thinking about getting that for one of my LTT guns. His recommendation was the #13, which is already in them. I might add a D spring just in case, when I order that slide.

[Hambo]

My carry guns have D springs, which I've found to be 100% reliable with factory ammo. My range gun has a standard power spring because I shoot Hambo Ammo Company reloads, and the QC isn't the best.

Back in days of the Elite 1 and 2, and whatever lightweight spring EL was selling at the time, none of them was 100% with factory ammo.

[Rmiked]

For you “high round count” 92 shooters, how often should a person dissemble slide and remove firing pin to thoroughly clean channel? It seems to me ignition reliability is dependent on a firing pin that is able to move somewhat freely. I am not a high round count shooter (no competition). I have about 2000 rounds in current 92. I have removed extractor and to access channel and used CLP in channel twice in 2000 rounds. That channel gets dirty. Probably why the standard Beretta hammer spring in base version 92s is 20#. Knowing the military pistols would be high round count and likely not cleaned much but still being able to fire when dirty. Disassembling the safety looks tougher than hammer springs, hammer return springs, extractors, etc. I guess I should quit being a sissy and just do it.

[CraigS]

3 years ago when I first started IDPA I experimented w/ hammer springs w/ my 92g. All was well down to 13# but light strikes w/ 12#. So I came here and did some searching cause I thought I remembered some comments about the Beretta skeleton hammer helping w/ light strikes. Found my memory was correct so ordered one. Back to the range w/ the skeleton hammer and 12# spring. Winner, winner!. One thing I remember from when I got the light strikes was they all fired on the second trigger pull which is DA. So I have three of our 92s w/ 12# (the IDPA M9A1, the IDPA backup 92G, and my EII) and all the rest have 13# just for a slight safety margin. BTW, first season I shot a match once per month, second season I added an every Tuesday nite match to the monthlys, 2019 I shot 3-4 per month and they have all been w/ a 12# spring and never a light strike. Most were using Walmart Federal until they stopped selling it and, since then, CCI Independence aluminum case ammo.

[JonInWA]

I stuck with the OEM 16# mainspring on my 92D for years, with absolutely zero issues; when I switched to the Wilson/Langdon triggerbar and other associated improvements, I started with 14#, then switched down to 13#, after careful vetting. I've had zero issues with mine at 13#; as mine is used for duty as well as entertainment, I don't plan on going any lower.

GENERALLY, with a Wilson/Langdon triggerbar, I'd feel comfortable as a general rule starting out with a 14# mainspring, and then going lower only with individual gun/cartridge vetting. On an OEM Beretta triggerbar, especially for duty, I'd go no lower than 16# (the "D" spring), unless the gun/cartridge combination was carefully vetted-and re-vetted if there was any cartridge change.

Obviously, on a "game gun," going to 12#-11# with a Wilson/Langdon triggerbar (or, better yet-for everything we're discussing, with a LTT TJIB, or a LTT tuning) is very viable-but probably primarily with soft (e.g. Federal) primers.

My personal "litmus test" cartridge is Sellier & Bellot-clean, accurate, but with harder primers.

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

GENERALLY, with a Wilson/Langdon triggerbar, I'd feel comfortable as a general rule starting out with a 14# mainspring, and then going lower only with individual gun/cartridge vetting.

This is a sound approach.

[JonInWA]

For you “high round count” 92 shooters, how often should a person dissemble slide and remove firing pin to thoroughly clean channel? It seems to me ignition reliability is dependent on a firing pin that is able to move somewhat freely. I am not a high round count shooter (no competition). I have about 2000 rounds in current 92. I have removed extractor and to access channel and used CLP in channel twice in 2000 rounds. That channel gets dirty. Probably why the standard Beretta hammer spring in base version 92s is 20#. Knowing the military pistols would be high round count and likely not cleaned much but still being able to fire when dirty. Disassembling the safety looks tougher than hammer springs, hammer return springs, extractors, etc. I guess I should quit being a sissy and just do it.

In my experience, it's not grunge in the firing pin channel per se, it's the accumulated grunge on the extractor and extractor channel; but it's not a bad idea to simply get both. With my leverless/one-piece firing pin 92D, it's a pretty easy process; a bit more difficult to remove/replace the safety/decock levers as necessary.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

For you “high round count” 92 shooters, how often should a person dissemble slide and remove firing pin to thoroughly clean channel? It seems to me ignition reliability is dependent on a firing pin that is able to move somewhat freely. I am not a high round count shooter (no competition). I have about 2000 rounds in current 92. I have removed extractor and to access channel and used CLP in channel twice in 2000 rounds. That channel gets dirty. Probably why the standard Beretta hammer spring in base version 92s is 20#. Knowing the military pistols would be high round count and likely not cleaned much but still being able to fire when dirty. Disassembling the safety looks tougher than hammer springs, hammer return springs, extractors, etc. I guess I should quit being a sissy and just do it.

I'd suggest every 2K rounds and/or annually is a good yardstick. On reassembly, I lube the firing pin channel and firing pin/firing pin spring with a dry-film lube/anti-corrosive (Dri-Slide). After application, the liquid carrier solution evaporates, leaving a non-GSR attractant dry film lubricant.

Best, Jon

[spence]

For you “high round count” 92 shooters, how often should a person dissemble slide and remove firing pin to thoroughly clean channel? It seems to me ignition reliability is dependent on a firing pin that is able to move somewhat freely. I am not a high round count shooter (no competition). I have about 2000 rounds in current 92. I have removed extractor and to access channel and used CLP in channel twice in 2000 rounds. That channel gets dirty. Probably why the standard Beretta hammer spring in base version 92s is 20#. Knowing the military pistols would be high round count and likely not cleaned much but still being able to fire when dirty. Disassembling the safety looks tougher than hammer springs, hammer return springs, extractors, etc. I guess I should quit being a sissy and just do it.

I haven't seen any specific numbers on this, but figure that a complete breakdown of the frame and slide isn't necessarily a bad thing every 5k or so, pretty much at intervals of replacing the recoil spring. Replace any other springs deemed necessary at the same time.

[Hambo]

I'd suggest every 2K rounds and/or annually is a good yardstick.

That's a lot of maintenance for 2K. Unless you're having problems, 10K is probably good, although I've gone way beyond that.

[JonInWA]

That's a lot of maintenance for 2K. Unless you're having problems, 10K is probably good, although I've gone way beyond that.

You're probably more correct. For me, my 92D is much easier to perform this sort of maintenance than on an F or G model, with the safety/decocker levers and more fiddly parts to juggle. Much more grunge accumulates under the extractor and in extractor channel than on the firing pin or in the firing pin chamber.

Best, Jon

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

For you “high round count” 92 shooters, how often should a person dissemble slide and remove firing pin to thoroughly clean channel? It seems to me ignition reliability is dependent on a firing pin that is able to move somewhat freely.

I have had a M-92 & M-96, but have not brought them to a high round count. However, I do shoot Beretta TDAs. I have several high round count PX4s. My PX4 .45 has 98,900 rounds (until tomorrow), another PX4 .45 with 37,428 rounds, a Compact with 25,000 rounds and a couple of SubCompact PX4s with 9,000+ each, etc..

We have had no trouble with light strikes even with reduced power hammer springs and I think our cleaning patterns help bring the good result. After each shooting session I like to clean off the breech face well and under the extractor claw (in place). Naturally, other areas are cleaned, but in regards to the concern of this thread I mention that as headstamp seating will be maximized for primer penetration.

We fully disassemble the slide for detailed cleaning of the firing pin channel, firing pin, interior parts and pathways every 5,000 rounds. We disassemble and detail clean in the frame every 10,000 rounds. While .45s run dirtier and accumulate more carbon, the .40s and 9 mms also get quite dirty in there. We are experimenting with taking our Compact 9 past 10,000 rounds or 15,000 to see what we can get away with using varied ammo sources. However, this Compact will not be used for any defensive use because of this.

These parts have seen 5,000 rounds

47915

[JonInWA]

Balancing and assessing your, Hambo and my experiences and results, in retrospect I'll change my recommendation for extractor/extractor channel cleaning to every 2K-5K rounds.

My suspicion is that you guys are right about deferring getting into the extractor area until at least 5K, but I'll continue to suggest that a 92 user might want to go in at the 2K (or somewhere between 2K and 5K) as an initial baseline check/cleanout so you can see how your specific cartridges' GSR residues attach.

Alternatively, an annual cleanout probably isn't a bad idea. But you really need to have a feel for how dirty your cartridges are, as that can be a driving factor in establishing the cleaning interval selection-especially regarding the extractor and extractor channel.

Even though the firing pin and firing pin channel is co-located with, and exposed to the extractor channel, it's the extractor and extractor channel that'll likely see the bulk of the grunge deposits.

Best, Jon

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

An afterthought that might apply to the subject: I also clean the front face of the hammer and rearmost impact surface on the slide each time I have shot. This can stop buildup from cushioning the hammer's fall.

[JSGlock34]

I have several high round count PX4s. My PX4 .45 has 98,900 rounds (until tomorrow), another PX4 .45 with 37,428 rounds, a Compact with 25,000 rounds and a couple of SubCompact PX4s with 9,000+ each, etc...We have had no trouble with light strikes even with reduced power hammer springs and I think our cleaning patterns help bring the good result.

I find it interesting that while the 92 and PX4 have many similarities and can even exchange some components (notably hammers and hammer springs for this discussion), the PX4 enjoys greater ignition reliability with reduced power hammer springs despite employing a lighter weight hammer.

Clearly there is more to ignition reliability than just spring power and hammer weights.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

I find it interesting that while the 92 and PX4 have many similarities and can even exchange some components (notably hammers and hammer springs for this discussion), the PX4 enjoys greater ignition reliability with reduced power hammer springs despite employing a lighter weight hammer.

Clearly there is more to ignition reliability than just spring power and hammer weights.

Agreed!

[Medusa]

An afterthought that might apply to the subject: I also clean the front face of the hammer and rearmost impact surface on the slide each time I have shot. This can stop buildup from cushioning the hammer's fall.

Same.

[JonInWA]

Yup. Ditto.

Best, Jon

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

...Even though the firing pin and firing pin channel is co-located with, and exposed to the extractor channel, it's the extractor and extractor channel that'll likely see the bulk of the grunge deposits.

Agreed! There is a good connection here. When a primer is ignited the case is pushed back and covers, if not fills (depending upon chamber pressures) the firing pin hole. Debris and carbon are less likely to enter the firing pin channel at this point (a blown primer being the exception). I have found in cleaning firing pins and channels that carbons and debris seem to enter from under the extractor.
When a pistol is fired the extractor does not pull the brass out. The brass pushes the slide back. When the case hits the ejector it gets pushed to the ejection port and the extractor directs its path by way of resistance. The extractor is opened to its fullest point as the case is leaving and exhausts are pushing rearward. So, the biggest "dumping" of carbons gets pushed under the extractor, but force, just when it is the most open. This is most of what gets in the firing pin channel.

So, Yes... cleaning out the extractor channel is directly related to keeping the firing pin cleaner.

[JonInWA]

And for those with F and G models that approach the disassembly and reassembly of the safety/decocker levers with fear and loathing, an alternative approach would be to drift out the extractor retention pin,remove the extractor and extractor spring, and flood the extractor channel with your cleaning solution/spray of choice; the firing pin/firing pin chamber is open to the extractor channel, so there's a point of entrance and egress.

Use canned air to remove and dry, and then apply lube-Beretta lubrication protocol calls for applying a drop of lube to the firing pin hole in the breech and to the back of the firing pin at the rear of the slide-as I mentioned earlier, I highly recommend a dry-film lubricant for the area.

Remember to stake the extractor hole at the top of the slide after everything's reasssembled to preclude the extractor pin from drifting itself out when subject to recoil forces/vibration. A couple of light blows with a punch or a tool steel screwdriver is all that's needed-not much metal needs to be displaced.

And DON'T do this cleaning process in an area not protected from the resultant mess unless contained (ESPECIALLY if you're using spray products.....a dry-cleaning bag as a protectant "bubble" probably would be a good start...

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

How would a lighter weight (e.g. titanium) firing pin affect ignition in a 92?

[CraigS]

Seems like Ti would be a good idea.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

How would a lighter weight (e.g. titanium) firing pin affect ignition in a 92?

Yes, that and a slightly reduced power firing pin spring.

[Doc_Glock]

I am considering buying the 92 Elite LTT intended for personal defense, perhaps Centurion, possibly full size. In my 92A1 I run the 16# D spring and have never had a light primer strike even with Winchester 124 grain NATO ammo. I was running a WC 14# CS (chrome silicon) hammer spring but with that same NATO ammo experienced a few light strikes. Then switched back to D spring, no issues. Is this the general consensus? Run D spring if it matters? Or are lighter springs reliable if stay away from known hard primer ammo. In other words IF your life depends it, what do you run?


I stick with D springs because they light everything even when dirty, and I don't like to worry about it. I am also not bothered by the7.5/3.25 pound trigger weights of the D. I find those weights perfectly appropriate and manageable.