“ROTD” method of shooting a PMO

[GJM]

Lately I have been pondering why some times I shoot fast and accurately, and other times shoot slower and less accurately. Since that variation can be during the same match or practice session, it is not like I magically got better or worse. The explanation that seems most probable to me, is it is how I interact with the rhythm of the gun moving through the recoil cycle. For short, I am referring to this as “ROTD” or rhythm of the dot.

Before discussing ROTD, I want to discuss variation in how the dot moves through recoil. Depending upon the caliber and ammo we are shooting, our strength and our technique, there will be variation in how the dot moves. If you want to get an easy visual on this, shoot doubles with a laser, and watch how the laser dot moves through your recoil cycle. Obviously you want to have the gun move the least possible through the recoil cycle, but perhaps more importantly is you want the gun to move in a consistent motion.

Now, back to ROTD. Rob Leatham says the key to shooting faster is to move the trigger faster. TPC says the key to shooting faster is to be earlier. My objective is a combination of earlier and faster by “getting ahead of the dot.” The technique that I associate with my best shooting, is to see the dot reach the apex of its arc of travel, watch it head back down, visualize its path and speed of return, and then prep the trigger so the shot goes off just as the dot reaches the target zone. Besides being earlier with this method, I find it leads to better trigger control because I am prepping the trigger when the dot is in motion, camouflaging the wiggle of prepping, and the shot breaks naturally as the dot settles, rather than trying to “make it go off right now!”

I drew with a Sharpie on a USPSA target to illustrate where I might see the dot start to come back down, and the steps to making the shot happen.

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If you prefer watching to reading, here is a short video describing the method, and demonstrating it, by shooting a 3x5 at 10 and 15 yards.


https://youtu.be/guush4_HYA4

Next, I took the method to a B8 at 15 yards. It really is low stress, because I am letting the shots break naturally as the dot settles.


https://youtu.be/zgVMwhIP0LQ

At some point, you will need to stop and stabilize the pistol to make a good shot, but I am not sure what that distance is. I tried it on a B8 at 25 yards, and was pleasantly surprised.


https://youtu.be/KJ14V98G9jU

As you should be able to see on each of these videos, the shot breaks as the dot reaches the target area. For me, at least with my ability today and a Glock trigger, this method allows me to do some of my best shooting. This might just be a trick of the day, or it might be something that helps you get in sync with the rhythm of a red dot.

[TCB]

This is one of the huge advantages of a PMO for a shooter who has a solid grasp on the fundamentals...no more time taken to verify sight alignment / sight picture. It’s single visual plane shooting, dots there...(or on its way there) break the shot as soon as it arrives.

[BN]

I thought ROTD meant "Rules Of The Day" which applied to certain pistol matches we used to attend. :( ;) Seems like the rules changed from week to week. LOL

[RevolverRob]

Awesome, awesome, stuff. I appreciate the vids and the visual on the target.

Now - thoughts on the drawstroke/index to find the dot and break the first shot?

I found the optic was working for me when already within the shot string, but I was consistently slower on the first shot and/or I dropped them from As to Cs by trying to force the shot.

[Alpha Sierra]

Now - thoughts on the drawstroke/index to find the dot and break the first shot?

You will have trouble finding it if you can't look at a target, close your eyes, draw to it, and find the sights in alignment on that target when you open your eyes at the end of the draw.

[Bergeron]

Yes, this is such great stuff.

I had a breakthrough in my shooting several years back while I was renting an M&P with almost zero force to the reset. It forced me to very consciously adopt a “back-and-forth-and-back-and-forth” motion to my trigger finger, and being able to marry up the cadence of the recoil to the cadence of prepping and breaking the shot gave me a further step in my shooting.

I really, really like the description of prep in recoil as camouflaging motion in the sights prior to breaking the shot.

[RoyGBiv]

I found myself employing this technique while shooting a RDS pistol for the first time this past weekend. I had a nagging feeling that I was staging the trigger or doing something else in poor technique. I also struggled a bit to shoot the dot and ignore the cowitnessed Ameriglos. I purposely avoided reading any dot-technique before my first outing, just to see how I felt about it with a blank slate. Now trying to catch up on advice/technique from the more experienced.

Apologies for reopening an old thread, but, I thought this was valuable insight for me and wanted to say thanks.

If this has been superseded by other/better technique/thinking/practice, I'd appreciate a pointer to that thread. :o Still getting off the ground here.

[RJ]

Holy moly, what a useful thread top. Thanks GJM and thanks RoyGBiv. This is excellent stuff.

Turns out as most know, I am still in the crawl stage of crawl/walk/run on dots. On this topic, I was at the range yesterday, trying to focus on shooting small things better, and had constructed a target consisting of 5 2" circles and 5 1" squares, since most of my errors on my favorite "Find Your Level" target are on these shapes.

I ran it out to 5 yards and used my Glock 34+HS 507c and shot it at a comfortable pace with AE 115 ammo. I was quite honestly very surprised to see small holes start to appear in the center of these targets, 9 out of 10, then somehow I lost the bubble and shanked the last one low and away.

(target is to right in this pic)

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[RJ]

I found myself employing this technique while shooting a RDS pistol for the first time this past weekend. I had a nagging feeling that I was staging the trigger or doing something else in poor technique. I also struggled a bit to shoot the dot and ignore the cowitnessed Ameriglos. I purposely avoided reading any dot-technique before my first outing, just to see how I felt about it with a blank slate. Now trying to catch up on advice/technique from the more experienced.

Apologies for reopening an old thread, but, I thought this was valuable insight for me and wanted to say thanks.

If this has been superseded by other/better technique/thinking/practice, I'd appreciate a pointer to that thread. :o Still getting off the ground here.

Speaking purely for me, as a pretty ordinary shooter, I just waited till the dot settled onto the shape, then pressed the trigger back. I don't recall thinking about anything in particular (to be honest, I was probably focusing on my grip at the time, as in, making sure that I wasn't slacking off grip pressure.) The shooting part was kind of a secondary aspect of that string, and it was only about half way through, that I started to realize that the bullet holes were appearing in the center of the shape, as if by some kind of Elvish magic.

[Adam]

Good stuff man, I'm going to play with this at the range some. ROTD seems like a more precise version of the "line/stripe of death" (semi-gag) concept some use where so long as the "line" created by the dot during the cycling of the gun stays within an acceptable area of the target, just keep pressing the trigger. If you can make that line 1" long, incredible, if if is 18" you probably have more issues to work out.

In my shooting quest, something I have struggled with is "What do I NEED to see?" Irons or dot. Again, good stuff as always.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Explained better than I've been able to when it got to this point. Thanks GJM

[M2CattleCo]

You will have trouble finding it if you can't look at a target, close your eyes, draw to it, and find the sights in alignment on that target when you open your eyes at the end of the draw.


I’m noticing that a pistol mounted dot is requiring me to practice a lot more to keep my presentation tidy.

When I’m at work and manage to shoot several times a week and dry fire daily, I start thinking that I’m all about that dot life [bro]. But when I put the gun in a holster, go live life for a few days, and use that time off as a chance to start cold, I suck until I warm up a bit.

It’s to the point that I decided that I’m not ready or maybe not even going to use a dot for carry.

[Archer1440]

I find that all too often, I will work on something at the range, come home, look at PF and see something that directly applies to what I just experienced- in that order.

And here it is again. Only this time, it comes after a session in which I was working on my target-focused iron shooting. Running the P30L V3, I ran cadence drills from 15-25 yards on the (what seems relatively huge, compared to what I normally shoot at) “DHS qualification target”, just getting a flash sight picture (Trijicon HD-XR) and pressing on each recoil cycle. Kept everything in the high-value zones on that target.

I felt pretty good about the results, getting a clean score on the “DHS qualification target”- until I overlaid the “gumdrop” of my usual Gunsite ‘Option targets’ on the impact zones. Then my smugness faded pretty quickly. It might have been good enough for a “DHS qualification” but not for a Cooper Cup.

[GJM]

I’m noticing that a pistol mounted dot is requiring me to practice a lot more to keep my presentation tidy.

When I’m at work and manage to shoot several times a week and dry fire daily, I start thinking that I’m all about that dot life [bro]. But when I put the gun in a holster, go live life for a few days, and use that time off as a chance to start cold, I suck until I warm up a bit.

It’s to the point that I decided that I’m not ready or maybe not even going to use a dot for carry.

I bet your presentation is equally tidy with irons as a dot, it is just that the dot is binary as in present or absent, where misalignment of the irons is more subtle.

[M2CattleCo]

I bet your presentation is equally tidy with irons as a dot, it is just that the dot is binary as in present or absent, where misalignment of the irons is more subtle.


For sure.

It’s just a lot easier for me clean up a slightly misaligned set of irons than it is to find something that’s not there.

[GJM]

For sure.

It’s just a lot easier for me clean up a slightly misaligned set of irons than it is to find something that’s not there.

With a dot, just use your imagination. :p

[newyork]

My first dot ever will be here this weekend. Rmr on my 2.0C milled and finished by Maple Leaf. M2, you’re scaring me that it’s going to be super hard to get used to. I plan to dry fire the crap out of it starting soon.

Thanks for the info George.

[Archer1440]

FWIW, this is what I got today, on the “DHS” target, applying GJM’s principles at 15-25 yards with irons (new P30L, with a GG SRT kit and Trijicon HD-XR’s I installed on the counter of my LGS while the transfer paperwork was processed). I get better results with the dot (VP9L), somewhat less of a vertical displacement, with tighter groups, but the concept certainly applies. Headshots were all at 15, body shots mostly at 25.

Still would be unacceptable on a Gunsite target. But the technique has merit.

[1911Nut]

My first dot ever will be here this weekend. Rmr on my 2.0C milled and finished by Maple Leaf. M2, you’re scaring me that it’s going to be super hard to get used to. I plan to dry fire the crap out of it starting soon.

Thanks for the info George.

I certainly do not qualify as an expert on the subject, and am only an average shooter.

I have spent a lot of time over the past year using and observing the use of dots on pistols.

In my experience, the ones that have the most trouble learning to shoot a dot are the ones that overthink it. It seems that (over-analysis) is an attribute everyone who struggles with it have in common.

[newyork]

That describes me too T.

[RJ]

The technique that I associate with my best shooting, is to see the dot reach the apex of its arc of travel, watch it head back down, visualize its path and speed of return, and then prep the trigger so the shot goes off just as the dot reaches the target zone.



newyork read this ^^^. Once you get the optic and are more or less seeing the dot, try that. I’m definitely an over thinker as well, but shooting the dot doesn’t really appear that complicated. Put dot on target, press trigger, reacquire target.

[newyork]

My two guesses on what will be tough are
1. Finding it on the draw in a time less than 5 mins lol
2. Not completely losing it during recoil

I think I should have it Friday night and sight it in Monday after work.

I’m told a 10yd sight in is fine but that seemed close. I’m shit at 25 with irons. Where should sight in be for a carry gun with a dot?

[RJ]

I’m told a 10yd sight in is fine but that seemed close. I’m shit at 25 with irons. Where should sight in be for a carry gun with a dot?

The aggregate error of sighting a pistol dot between 10, 15, 20 and 25 yards is very small due to the low deck height of the optic on a pistol slide.

When I asked, most folks suggested 10 or 15 yards, then confirm at 25. But I’ll defer to the more experienced guys, for sure.

I can post my spreadsheet analysis if you want. :cool:

[newyork]

The mill company suggested 10.

[Archer1440]

You will get answers for various uses. For my uses, all my carry and competition pistols are set up for a 25 meter zero. 10 meters basically gives me one ragged hole with just about everything from 115-150 grains, but 25 off a bench shows clear differences not only with projectile weight, but from brand to brand, with a minimum of ammo expended for the purpose. So, I prefer a zero at 25.

Arguments can certainly be made for 10- particularly for a purely offhand zero with less ammo expended.

[GJM]

I use a 25 yard zero for pistols, shotguns with slugs and pistol caliber carbines.

By the way, the ROTD method works especially well for me shooting with one hand.

[newyork]

You guys typically cover your target with the dot or rest the chosen target on top of the dot?

[newyork]

https://i.imgur.com/mxLrIrx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3a49wGw.jpg

[Archer1440]

You guys typically cover your target with the dot or rest the chosen target on top of the dot?

I cover mine. This works particularly well for me, with concentric-ring zeroing targets.

I really don’t have direct knowledge of anyone setting up red dots differently, but I’m sure there may be exceptions. Remember, we shoot the dot with a target focus, and the benefit of the dot being focused at infinity means it is the same sharpness as the target.

“bullseye” lollipop sight pictures with a hard front sight focus really don’t have relevance to the red dot, unless perhaps a person has a case of the “yips” and can’t break the trigger if there’s something covering the impact point.

When precision shooting the red dot on a silhouette or non-concentric target, it’s important to “pick a spot” on the target, and drive the dot to that spot. I see a lot of people shooting at the general shape and getting big groups- always pick a spot if you want tight groups with the dot.

[1911Nut]

"When precision shooting the red dot on a silhouette or non-concentric target, it’s important to “pick a spot” on the target, and drive the dot to that spot. I see a lot of people shooting at the general shape and getting big groups- always pick a spot if you want tight groups with the dot."

This. For certain.

[Caballoflaco]

You guys typically cover your target with the dot or rest the chosen target on top of the dot?

I love a target type hold for irons on rifles and pistols. I really don’t like covering the target with my sights. However, I’ve never bothered to try with a dot, because the size of the dot in relation to brightness and lighting conditions changes so much I don’t think you could have a consistent zero.

That might be different with a dot with a chevron or crosshair type reticle, but I haven’t ever owned or shot one of those

[newyork]

That makes sense. I’ll cover. I think I’ll get rough zero at 10 and fine tune at 25.

I’m sick so I’m not putting a holster on. Too lazy tonight. But from the ready the dot both seems easier than I thought but also I see that it’ll take a bunch of dry fire sessions to get things like where the dot comes from and how to “fix” that and not looking at the window as much. Where I bring the gun too as far as height and other things. I’m psyched to get this started.

[RJ]

You guys typically cover your target with the dot or rest the chosen target on top of the dot?

I’m no big deal shooter, but for several years I preferred a cover dot hold using HKs, so I tuned my Glock iron sights the same. Transitioning to a dot it seemed pretty natural to keep doing that, so I just put the dot (or circle, for my carry Holosun) on top of the target and press the trigger.

[newyork]

Thank you RJ!

[dldarrow]

Now - thoughts on the drawstroke/index to find the dot and break the first shot?

I found the optic was working for me when already within the shot string, but I was consistently slower on the first shot and/or I dropped them from As to Cs by trying to force the shot.

I find that if I bring the gun up from a low ready with arms extended I have trouble finding the dot. But if I press the gun forward from a high ready and find my co witnessed front site on the way to the target the dot magically appears!