Need help picking my first pistol red dot

[Sendit6.5]

I need help with picking a red dot. I know I want to try a red dot on my P365 and possibly on my Springfield XDm .40 down the road. Both pistols would need to have the slide cut for the optic. So, while it will be expensive, at least I’m free to pick whatever I want. I will not say ‘money is no object’ when picking a sight, but I’m not entirely sure I want to jump into the most expensive RDS out there, right off the bat. My thought is to try a dot on the P365 and then, later, possibly try it on the XDm. All the options combined with the multiple footprint types has my head spinning. I like having options and the fact that each footprint is only compatible with a couple of types of sights is really frustrating me and making it nearly impossible to make a decision. I keep talking myself out of each one I think I want. Lol! So, I’m hoping y’all can help me decide. Why these manufacturers don't get together and settle on a STANDARD mounting footprint is mind-blowing. It sure seems like it'd make life easier for everyone.

Does anyone know whether the new Holosun 507K uses the same footprint as the RMR? I believe the 507c does (hope I have that right?) so I’m hoping the K model does as well. That would let me start with an inexpensive sight and, if I ever wanted to, upgrade to the RMR (which seems to be a Tier 1 option) later. <—-Sort of a win-win option in my book.

Here’s a list of the brands I’m considering

Holosun 507K (3.25moa). RMR Footprint
Holosun 507c (3.25moa). RMR Footprint
Trijicon RMR. (1moa or 3.25moa). RMR Footprint
Leupold Delta Pro (2.5moa). Shield Footprint
Vortex Venom (3moa). Doctor Footprint
Vortex Razor (3moa). C-More Footprint

Am I missing a brand/model that I should consider?

I’m really leaning towards starting with a Holosun because I could always switch to the RMR and that footprint offers me 3 sight options. The other footprints only allow me to mount ONE sight each. Question: Are there adapter plates and, if so, what are the negatives of using an adapter plate? Say I started with thew RMR cut but, later, wanted to put a Vortex Venom on there?

Last questions… What about co-witnessing in case of sight failure? Should I have the slide cut placed in front of the rear irons and switch over to suppressor sights, just in case? The Holosun 507K looked (see video linked below) like it may have a rear iron sight built into it - is this the case?

Sorry for so many questions in one post but I’m hoping that, by throwing all of it together, it’ll make it easier to get useful suggestions. Thanks in advance to those who reply!




Even though this still image doesn't look like it, this video (first few seconds 0:13 - 0:16) makes the Holosun 507K look like it incorporates a rear iron sight; but it was a prototype, so maybe its not in the production model?

https://youtu.be/NdSMvRnGRyA

[GJM]

I don’t think either the 365 or SA .40 are ideal for learning about a PMO. The 365 because you are limited in what will fit on the slide and because it is nearly a pocket pistol. The SA because .40. I would get a service sized 9mm with a factory multi optic system and mount a RMR type 2 or SRO depending on whether you are oriented towards EDC or technical shooting.

[Alpha Sierra]

Is there a reason you're not considering dot sizes significantly larger than 3 MOA?

I have a 6.5 MOA RMR and it's absolutely not a handicap to making head shots on USPSA targets (whose heads are smaller than human heads) at 20 yards.

Adapter plates are generally for factory optic cuts. The factory optic cut is made to a footprint unique to that brand, and OEM or aftermarket plates for that brand are used to accommodate the various optic footprints. I think there are some aftermarket optic cuts that use adapter plates but can't think offhand of names.

I'm pretty sure the Leupold Delta Pro has its own unique footprint not shared with any Shield products.

Sights that you can see through the glass? Yes for a pistol that you'll depend on for self defense.

[Danjojo]

I would say trade one or both towards something with a plate system to future proof. You might save a little money and these optics are likely to keep evolving at a steady pace for the next 5 years.

Holosun or Vortex on sale for $200 to test the waters if needed. A lot of guys around here just stick with them and don't plan to switch until the decisively better stuff comes along.

In the woods, overcast, early morning...the ongoing gold standard RMR is pretty awful compared to those cheapies. You would never guess it is the more expensive model unless doing a battery endurance test or durability test against trees and rocks. But since we have cowitnessing back up sights why use one with a tiny, heavily tinted window?

[MVS]

I don’t think either the 365 or SA .40 are ideal for learning about a PMO. The 365 because you are limited in what will fit on the slide and because it is nearly a pocket pistol. The SA because .40. I would get a service sized 9mm with a factory multi optic system and mount a RMR type 2 or SRO depending on whether you are oriented towards EDC or technical shooting.

Pretty much this. If you want to start with a cheaper dot like a vortex or Holosun that is fine, but I would do it on a different platform than what you now have. Dot size is total personal preference. I prefer smaller as do a lot of big names and competitors, others equally as qualified prefer larger dots. Larger are probably more forgiving for newbies to the system. A lot of this is going to be experimentation on your part. It is all still evolving somewhat rapidly

[vcdgrips]

GJM and his wife has forgotten more about RDS on pistols than many people know.

Between and him and his wife, they have spent 5 figures+ and thousands of hours over the last few years figuring this stuff out.

A smart person learns from their mistakes and experiences. A wise man first learns from the mistakes and experiences of others.


Listen to GJM.

[David S.]

I'll agree there are probably better options than both the XDM.40 and 365, but if you must stick with the existing guns, I'd start with the XDm and a Holosun 507C (https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-circle-dot-solar-power-reflex-sight-hs507c.html). The 507c uses the RMR footprint and it's significantly cheaper than a RMR. It MAY not be as durable as an RMR, but seems durable enough for CCW use and certainly casual shooting. I use a 407c on both my carry guns. I find the Holosun slightly easier to shoot than the RMR, in spite of the smaller dot size. The 32 MOA circle could act as training wheels as you are finding/tracking the dot. The larger gun will make it easier to learn.

The Holosun 507k/SIG 365 does NOT use the RMR footprint. It uses a micro footprint. The 507k hasn't been vetted by the shooting public, just a few industry influencers. I think this could be a good combination once the optic is vetted and you have some dot experience.

ETA. ASSuming the XDm is a simple mill job, you can get milling + 507c (on sale) for the price of an RMR or SRO (just the optic). You can upgrade to an RMR/SRO later if you choose.

[noguns]

The 32 MOA circle could act as training wheels as you are finding/tracking the dot. The larger gun will make it easier to learn..


For this reason alone I may try holosun as my first dot. Although it is tempting to go rmr for $200 more

[Alpha Sierra]

For this reason alone I may try holosun as my first dot. Although it is tempting to go rmr for $200 more

How good is your index out of the holster?

If you can look at something, close your eyes, draw, then open your eyes to find your sights in good enough alignment; you don't need training wheels. The dot will be right in front of your eyes.

Handgun RDS work best with an erect head and no tactical turtling

[GJM]

Red dot equipped defensive handguns need backup iron sights.

[MVS]

Red dot equipped defensive handguns need backup iron sights.

The rear sight notch on the Holosun K series seems rudimentary but probably workable.

[Sendit6.5]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and terrific information. Exactly the kind of input I was looking for! Lots to think about.


I don’t think either the 365 or SA .40 are ideal for learning about a PMO. The 365 because you are limited in what will fit on the slide and because it is nearly a pocket pistol. The SA because .40. I would get a service sized 9mm with a factory multi optic system and mount a RMR type 2 or SRO depending on whether you are oriented towards EDC or technical shooting.

Thanks so much for the reply! You make a great point. Only reason I got the P365, rather than a service sized pistol, is that I wanted something that would work for church, dressy situations, when I'm out for a run on the ranch and when I'm in shorts and a t-shirt. It's very hot here in South Texas and when I'm not at the ranch I can often be found in clothing that either wouldn't cover or support (or both) a bigger pistol. Nevertheless, I absolutely 'get' your point and sure do see the wisdom in it. I want to keep the .40 because it's a great gun for me to take as protection at the ranch or when I go Elk/Mule deer/bear hunting. I'd rather have a .40 for bear and big hogs than 9mm. I guess that means I'll be shopping for another pistol! Lol! I know Sig is releasing (or already has) some new P320 models with optics or, at least, optic cuts; and there's always a Glock 19. Better choices? Maybe it's cheesy but I also find myself interested in this pistol: https://warriorpoetsociety.us/war-poet-pistol/ It seems like a good deal for all that's included.

I'm really only interested in EDC and not technical shooting. Don't get me wrong...I DO want to shoot a pistol much better than I do. BUT, between using a rifle for a lot of my work as a year-round guide and outfitter, my side work as a professional predator hunter and a healthy obsession with long range shooting I just don't have time to get obsessive about pistol. I say that... but I (obviously) have an obsessive personality when it comes to just about anything shooting related! Did I mention I also bow hunt? Lol! So, picking up an additional obsession would NOT be surprising. But I'm really fighting that urge. :/



I'll agree there are probably better options than both the XDM.40 and 365, but if you must stick with the existing guns, I'd start with the XDm and a Holosun 507C (https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-circle-dot-solar-power-reflex-sight-hs507c.html). The 507c uses the RMR footprint and it's significantly cheaper than a RMR. It MAY not be as durable as an RMR, but seems durable enough for CCW use and certainly casual shooting. I use a 407c on both my carry guns. I find the Holosun slightly easier to shoot than the RMR, in spite of the smaller dot size. The 32 MOA circle could act as training wheels as you are finding/tracking the dot. The larger gun will make it easier to learn.

The Holosun 507k/SIG 365 does NOT use the RMR footprint. It uses a micro footprint. The 507k hasn't been vetted by the shooting public, just a few industry influencers. I think this could be a good combination once the optic is vetted and you have some dot experience.

ETA. ASSuming the XDm is a simple mill job, you can get milling + 507c (on sale) for the price of an RMR or SRO (just the optic). You can upgrade to an RMR/SRO later if you choose.

Maybe I'm wrong... but since I'm fairly familiar with shooting a red dot as a backup/close range sight on a couple of my predator hunting rifles, I figured the transition to shooting them on a pistol might smooth out the learning curve a bit for me. I'm not a BAD pistol shot, I'm just not fast. LOL. I watch guys with so much control and the ability to shoot accurately at about 20x the speed it'd take me to be that accurate. Lots to learn.

Holosun got back to me before I came back to this thread and they told me that the footprint for the 507K uses, "the RMSc without the rear bosses."

Durability: I understand durability from the standpoint of surviving the ride on the slide and some banging around in a holster but when folks get to talking about banging a RDS into trees and rocks and barricades, I think they're doing things I'm not likely to do. Heck, I ride around some of the roughest roads you could imagine on the ranches I work and I'm about as rough as I can be with rifles I keep in the truck and drag all over kingdom come in the brush, hunting hard year-round, and I haven't broken a red dot or a scope in I don't know how long. I'm not going into combat except against some fur animals. Lol! I guess if I was doing some sort of 3-gun match or military style competitions I'd be looking for bullet proof; but I think most of these sights would last me for a good long while. No?

[zpelletier]

Listen to the Primary and Secondary podcast about pistol mounted RDS (Modcast 208). Lots of good information from very reliable sources. I know I learned a lot. And as a side note, I’m in a similar boat, I want to get a red dot on my pistol, everything I’ve read rates the RMR as the most reliable, and it seems like, surprisingly, the Holosun is just behind it.

[HeavyDuty]

For what it’s worth, when I decided last year to give a RDS service pistol a fair trial I went the easy way - a Glock 19.5 MOS with a 6.5 MOA RMR. I’m happy with my choice, to the point I’d like to start exploring more RDS on other guns. I’m just waiting for a higher quality compact sight, something like a RMRc.

[Alpha Sierra]

Maybe I'm wrong... but since I'm fairly familiar with shooting a red dot as a backup/close range sight on a couple of my predator hunting rifles, I figured the transition to shooting them on a pistol might smooth out the learning curve a bit for me.

Shooting a handgun with an RDS is very different than shooting a rifle with an RDS. Having lots of experience with a rifle RDS isn't much help.

[vcdgrips]

From the outside looking in as I do not yet have an RDS pistol- I see the Holosun as the intersection of quality and value. I see the Trijicon RMR as the best available solution if price is no object. Buy Quality-Cry Once. I would buy a Glock MOS gun and an RMR, follow the instructions on the thread re mounting the same, zero at 10 and drive on.

FWIW

[Borderland]

FWIW, I have a dot on my MKII and like it. But that's a target pistol, not an EDC.

My impression after shooting a P-226 with the dot and without the dot is, it isn't going to improve your shooting at SD ranges <15 yds. I can shoot a P-226 WO a dot as well as I can with the dot. My buddy who owns those P-226's believes the dot helped him realize that it wasn't the sights or pistol that prevented him from shooting well, it was his inability to hold precisely on the target. Dot won't help you there.

Dots are fun. At 25 yds I can shoot my MKII better with a dot. I've never taken it off since I put it on. It adds a new fun dimension to target shooting but for EDC I'll pass.

My dot is Vortec Venom and it's GTG.

[Alpha Sierra]

My impression after shooting a P-226 with the dot and without the dot is, it isn't going to improve your shooting at SD ranges <15 yds.

My impression, after putting 1475 rounds through a P-10F with irons and 1551 through same with a Trijicon RMR, is that the dot helps everywhere.

Hosing a single target 5 yards away is just as fast either way, but transitions between targets at that same distance are faster (for me) with an RDS. I always had a slight hesitation when transitioning what little focusing ability I have from the second target to the front sight. That hesitation is gone with the 100% target focus that an RDS provides. The advantage is small, but it's there.

That slight hesitation both in transitions and on the draw is even more noticeable past 7 yards and that's where the dot lets your vision really speed up.

[Sendit6.5]

Shooting a handgun with an RDS is very different than shooting a rifle with an RDS. Having lots of experience with a rifle RDS isn't much help.

Gotcha. I guess I'll just have to see. No doubt, there's no similarity between shooting a pistol and a long gun. I just figured my eye/brain would be pretty accustomed to identifying the dot and using it as a point of aim. I don't use my red dots for any target shooting - I use them for very fast shots on running coyotes at close range. Part of my job is hunting predators and where I work the brush is very thick. I use a shotgun a lot but lots of time I am expecting a rifle shot when a coyote comes blasting out of the brush at 15yds and I don't have time to switch. So, I just tilt my AR or lift my head slightly off my bolt rifle and use a 45º mounted red dot. I figured this rapid target acquisition would translate in some way to drawing a pistol and finding the dot - not shooting, but finding it. I hear that guys struggle with "acquiring" the dot on a pistol red dot.

I'm just hypothesizing here - I know nothing. LOL! I'll take your word on it. Thanks for the warning!




FWIW, I have a dot on my MKII and like it. But that's a target pistol, not an EDC.

My impression after shooting a P-226 with the dot and without the dot is, it isn't going to improve your shooting at SD ranges <15 yds. I can shoot a P-226 WO a dot as well as I can with the dot. My buddy who owns those P-226's believes the dot helped him realize that it wasn't the sights or pistol that prevented him from shooting well, it was his inability to hold precisely on the target. Dot won't help you there.

Dots are fun. At 25 yds I can shoot my MKII better with a dot. I've never taken it off since I put it on. It adds a new fun dimension to target shooting but for EDC I'll pass.

My dot is Vortec Venom and it's GTG.

Thanks! A buddy came over the other day with a brand new P226 with the optics package, to let me shoot it. Unfortunately, his battery was dead and I got to shoot it but had to use the iron suppressor sights and didn't get any sense of what it'd be like to shoot with RDS. Ugh! Just my luck! Maybe he'll come back over. I sure liked how it felt in my hand. Only thing is, it seemed awful heavy for something to carry around all day in CC. That kinda made me think a Glock 19 Gen 5 MOS might be better for me. If only the Sig took Glock mags! <---- LOL! Total joke. Hahaha! I couldn't resist. Seems like everything takes Glock mags these days or else people want them to. haha!

[Sendit6.5]

I'm surprised nobody had anything to say about that "War Poet" pistol I linked. I kinda thought I'd get slammed for even suggesting that pistol. LMAO!

[Alpha Sierra]

I figured this rapid target acquisition would translate in some way to drawing a pistol and finding the dot - not shooting, but finding it. I hear that guys struggle with "acquiring" the dot on a pistol red dot.

The main thing that hinders finding the dot on the draw is your draw itself. If you can look at something, close your eyes, draw to it, and then open your eyes at the end of the draw to see your sights in good alignment on target you should have no trouble finding the dot on the draw.

It's much easier with a long gun because it's touching your face, shoulder, and both hands. The pistol is just at the end of your arms.

[David S.]

My impression after shooting a P-226 with the dot and without the dot is, it isn't going to improve your shooting at SD ranges <15 yds.

MY OPINION is that very much depends on your accuracy requirement and skill level.

I bet my speed is similar if my accuracy standard is a generous IPSC A-zone or IDPA -0. I find the dot "improves my shooting" closer to 5- 7 yards if my acceptable target area is the black on a B-8 (5.5" circle) or less, particularly if the real or simulated consequences of a miss (outside desired target area) are high.

I also find the dot to be incredibly helpful as a diagnostic tool.