What do you do when you want to like a gun but don't shoot it as well as your main?

[RANDY_MARSH]

I'm about 5k rounds into my VP9 and I love it. Only thing that sucks is that my particular VP9 is kind of picky. Brass only, i've had stuck casings in the chamber with steel, laquer coated steel, and aluminum cased rounds before. But never had an issue with brass.

I shoot it fairly well, i'm good with the paddle and i'm invested into the platform.

Enter the M&P 2.0. I caught two of them on sale, a full size and a compact. I have almost 2k rounds into the full size and probably only 500 on my compact. I want to shoot the platform well, but I just shoot the VP9 so much better.

The 2.0 is what I want to use more often. I want to use it for work (next qual is in 6 months.) Mags are cheaper for it, more aftermarket, it goes through any kind of ammo I throw in it. I already have the safariland and a good amount of mags. I just can't group as well as I can with the VP9. I feel like the trigger is pretty good and broken in. I just don't know what the issue is. The rounds start loosening up quicker and start drifting a bit left. Whereas the VP9, I can shoot a 3-4" group at 10y with fair pace.

Do you guys usually dump it and stick to the main or do you guys put the effort into working the platform up to your peak? I feel like whenever I get back from a match, I almost know I could have done better with my Vp9.

[HopetonBrown]

What is "so much better"?

[RANDY_MARSH]

What is "so much better"?

At 10 yards my groups were almost half the size with very little effort on the VP9 compared to the M&P.

[HopetonBrown]

What's half the size?

[RANDY_MARSH]

What's half the size?

Palm sized with the VP9 compared to hand sized with the M&P. I was doing draw, and fire 4 shots from 8~ yards.

[HopetonBrown]

Buy a shot timer, use targets you can score, shoot common shooting tests.

2" difference in slow fire group shooting at 24 feet seems rather narrow in scope to determine which gun you shoot better.

I might suggest the 5x5 IDPA classifier, the FAST test, original FAMS qual, and 25 yard 10 round B8s in 20 seconds.

Have a list of concrete numbers in front of you, your answer should be simple.

[RANDY_MARSH]

Buy a shot timer, use targets you can score, shoot common shooting tests.

2" difference in slow fire group shooting at 24 feet seems rather narrow in scope to determine which gun you shoot better.

I might suggest the 5x5 IDPA classifier, the FAST test, original FAMS qual, and 25 yard 10 round B8s in 20 seconds.

Have a list of concrete numbers in front of you, your answer should be simple.

I had a timer with me and the same time it took me to do the strings of fire with the VP9 (CLEAN,) I either had to slow down .5-1s with the M&P OR i'd have a miss somewhere in the drill.

The longest string of fire I did was just 6 shots.

So the timer doesn't lie. As always. But at this point, would you guys press on and try to master the thing or just go with what you're better with and take all the advantages you can get?

[Cypher]

But at this point, would you guys press on and try to master the thing or just go with what you're better with and take all the advantages you can get?

That's going to be a very subjective answer. I have been advised multiple times by forum members here not even to switch platforms for dry fire.

So I suspect that the majority of respondents are going to tell you to pick one platform and stick with it.

[RANDY_MARSH]

That's going to be a very subjective answer. I have been advised multiple times by forum members here not even to switch platforms for dry fire.

So I suspect that the majority of respondents are going to tell you to pick one platform and stick with it.

Makes sense. I guess for me what sucks is that the VP9's ammo issues (which some others have said they don't have that issue...)

I want to be good with the M&P, I want to really badly because of the ammo thing and honestly i do trust the reliability a bit more. I've had mag issues with the VP9 before a couple of times that I did not have with the M&P.

Sucks, because when you work in LE, if you're not shooting a glock you're the black sheep anyway.

[Cypher]

Makes sense. I guess for me what sucks is that the VP9's ammo issues (which some others have said they don't have that issue...)

I want to be good with the M&P, I want to really badly because of the ammo thing and honestly i do trust the reliability a bit more. I've had mag issues with the VP9 before a couple of times that I did not have with the M&P.

Sucks, because when you work in LE, if you're not shooting a glock you're the black sheep anyway.

At no point did I suggest that you stick with the VP. In fact I didn't make any suggestions at all but if I were going to I would say that you either get the mechanical issues corrected with the VP to where you can trust it 100% or you go with the M&P.

[revchuck38]

Have you tried playing with the different size grip inserts? On my 9/40 M&Ps I need the large one, but with my 45s I pulled to the left SHO, going to the medium cured that. IMO there's something going on with your grip; the VP9s have a reputation for excellent accuracy and the 9x19 M&P 2.0s have a reputation for being pretty good as well, that much of a difference shouldn't be chalked up to the guns themselves.

Re: the VP9 not liking steel and aluminum cased ammo - lots of pistols choke on this stuff. It's made to a price point, which implies that production tolerances are going to be funkier than good ammo, and if your chamber's cut to minimum dimensions (pretty sure that's the case with the VP9, it is with my Walther P99C) it's going to be pickier.

[RANDY_MARSH]

Have you tried playing with the different size grip inserts? On my 9/40 M&Ps I need the large one, but with my 45s I pulled to the left SHO, going to the medium cured that. IMO there's something going on with your grip; the VP9s have a reputation for excellent accuracy and the 9x19 M&P 2.0s have a reputation for being pretty good as well, that much of a difference shouldn't be chalked up to the guns themselves. Possible exception to this: If you've got early 9x19 1.0s, they did have mechanical accuracy issues.

I'm going to play with that next. I usually use small grips on all my guns, I haven't tried the medium yet with the M&P.

I'll try it this weekend, good suggestion.

[Bucky]

Don’t force it. Unless you you have to shoot a particular gun (issued gun or sponsored), stick with and like what you shoot well.

[Cory]

You're looking for validation from the forum to switch right?

Okay. You're approved. Shoot the gun you want.

Honestly, shoot some metrics and work on things you suck at and don't want to work on. Getting better as a shooter will tighten your groups far more than changing the pistol.

-Cory

[RANDY_MARSH]

You're looking for validation from the forum to switch right?

Okay. You're approved. Shoot the gun you want.

Honestly, shoot some metrics and work on things you suck at and don't want to work on. Getting better as a shooter wil tighten youe groups far more than changing the pistol.

-Cory

I guess what i'm doing is i'm seeking advice from people who have been shooting far longer than I and I'm sure ya'll have tried other platforms.

But I see what you mean, the baseline for one pistol for one shooter may be higher than it is for another.

[JustOneGun]

OP: you said you had, "mag issues" with the VP. What kind of issues?

[Cory]

I guess what i'm doing is i'm seeking advice from people who have been shooting far longer than I and I'm sure ya'll have tried other platforms.

But I see what you mean, the baseline for one pistol for one shooter may be higher than it is for another.

I get it. I may have come across as a jerk there, not my intention. My point was if you possess high shooting ability, you can generally shoot very well with what ever is handed to you. To me, that means practice.

Which firearm lets you practice more and will help you raise ability?

Also, if you're a leo you have (in my non leo opinion) a responsability to be able to make a shot of unknown difficulty under stress. How much gap is there between your performance with them? As stated before by others would suss that out with some metrics.

Good luck.

-Cory

[Greg]

Don’t shoot garbage Russian ammo.

It sucks and they’re douchebags.

[camsdaddy]

Don’t shoot garbage Russian ammo.

It sucks and they’re douchebags.
I agree if I only had issue with non brass ammo I would just shoot brass ammo. If that is the only issue I had I would stick to the VP. Mags are listed as another reason. You can buy several mags cheaper than buying new M&P's.
If I wanted to change because I like the M&P I would change to the M&P.

[olstyn]

Mags are cheaper for it

What's the price difference? Multiply by the number of mags you expect to need to buy for each platform going forward. Is the difference in expected total spend $50? $100? More? I mean, I know HK mags are expensive-ish, but presumably you already have a decent supply, and their rep is for being extremely durable, so depending on how many you currently have and how much you shoot, this may or may not be a real issue.

[medmo]

Slow it down with the M&P. Don’t try to shoot it as fast as the VP9. Focus on accuracy when running drills. Once your hitting the accuracy you want then focus on speed.

[CraigS]

I think Rev has a good idea. Try all the different grips. I have come to think that how it feels is important but more important is how it actually shoots. The two may not always be the same.

[M2CattleCo]

I go with what works best overall.

I like the same system for the big gun, smaller gun, tiny gun, and like having easy to get holsters and the ability to do all my own armor work with a Bic pen or a small nail.

If that gives you an idea. :cool:

[YVK]

Only thing that sucks is that my particular VP9 is kind of picky.


Every HK, mine were P30s, that I fed steel case ammo to choked on it. Invariably within the first box, and sometimes within five rounds.
JoshS had two barrels erode and be declined for warranty work because HK determined it was due to aluminum ammo.
Use manufacturer's recommended ammo.


This is 2020. There is a metric ton of good guns on the market. Nobody needs to compromise. Shoot whatever works best for you and forget about everything else.

[Danjojo]

When I was looking at jumping on the sales for the 2.0 compacts and 5", or getting an EZ for older family members, I saw quite a bit of accuracy complaints....not as crazy as 1.0 9mm models but still. Precision just doesn't seem to be S&W's thing when it comes to new pistols unless it's a 45.

If you love everything else about them maybe go the old route of fitted barrel and Apex trigger.

[psalms144.1]

I want to love ANYTHING but Glocks, I really do. However, I ran the VP9 quite a bit, and while it was more mechanically accurate in slow fire than my Gen4 G19, the wheels came off on longer strings with higher round counts.

I switched to the M&P2.0 in 9mm, and found the accuracy wasn't on par with the Gen5 G19. Plus, only the small backstrap felt good in the hand, the larger backstraps felt like someone taped a golf ball to the grip. Even with a number of different grip options, nothing really clicked for me.

Were I in the market for a new striker fired 9mm as an LE duty gun today, the Gen5 G19 or G45 would be my first, second, and third choices.

To your specific question, I would NOT spend a lot more time and energy trying to force the M&P to "work" for you. Neither would I be confident carrying a pistol that's not 100 percent reliable with quality duty ammo. But, if you feed your VP9 crap ammo, you gotta expect crap results. So, IMHO, get a Glock, or buy quality brass case training ammo for your VP9.

[RANDY_MARSH]

I want to love ANYTHING but Glocks, I really do. However, I ran the VP9 quite a bit, and while it was more mechanically accurate in slow fire than my Gen4 G19, the wheels came off on longer strings with higher round counts.

I switched to the M&P2.0 in 9mm, and found the accuracy wasn't on par with the Gen5 G19. Plus, only the small backstrap felt good in the hand, the larger backstraps felt like someone taped a golf ball to the grip. Even with a number of different grip options, nothing really clicked for me.

Were I in the market for a new striker fired 9mm as an LE duty gun today, the Gen5 G19 or G45 would be my first, second, and third choices.

To your specific question, I would NOT spend a lot more time and energy trying to force the M&P to "work" for you. Neither would I be confident carrying a pistol that's not 100 percent reliable with quality duty ammo. But, if you feed your VP9 crap ammo, you gotta expect crap results. So, IMHO, get a Glock, or buy quality brass case training ammo for your VP9.


Good points. As for the ammo thing, I exclusively shoot brass, but I would like to be able for the gun to function with cheaper ammo if I needed. Yeah, the gen 5 offerings are nice.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm about 5k rounds into my VP9 and I love it. Only thing that sucks is that my particular VP9 is kind of picky. Brass only, i've had stuck casings in the chamber with steel, laquer coated steel, and aluminum cased rounds before. But never had an issue with brass.

I shoot it fairly well, i'm good with the paddle and i'm invested into the platform.

Enter the M&P 2.0. I caught two of them on sale, a full size and a compact. I have almost 2k rounds into the full size and probably only 500 on my compact. I want to shoot the platform well, but I just shoot the VP9 so much better.

The 2.0 is what I want to use more often. I want to use it for work (next qual is in 6 months.) Mags are cheaper for it, more aftermarket, it goes through any kind of ammo I throw in it. I already have the safariland and a good amount of mags. I just can't group as well as I can with the VP9. I feel like the trigger is pretty good and broken in. I just don't know what the issue is. The rounds start loosening up quicker and start drifting a bit left. Whereas the VP9, I can shoot a 3-4" group at 10y with fair pace.

Do you guys usually dump it and stick to the main or do you guys put the effort into working the platform up to your peak? I feel like whenever I get back from a match, I almost know I could have done better with my Vp9.

If one of my trusted guns had malfunctions with steel case or aluminum, I would: [PICK ONE]

A) Dump it for a M&P that I don't shoot as well, and isn't nearly as good a gun.
B) Keep shooting the gun, but not trust it anymore
C) Not use the cheap-ass ammo, and carry on.

[joker581]

On the range, I shoot whatever I like without worrying much about how well I shoot it. I constantly try to improve my shooting with everything, especially the guns I don't shoot well.

For real use, I use the gun I shoot best, which has also been extremely reliable up to this point.

[Joe in PNG]

I'm more partial to the use of good ammo, as it gets rid of a variable.

With cheap ammo, one never quite know if it's the shooter, if it's the gun, or if it's the ammo causing your problems.

With good ammo, one can eliminate one potential vector for problems- and can quickly go on to eliminate the second (the gun, after a few test for function & accuracy). Which leaves just the shooter.

[spence]

Ha. What do you do when you've got two from the same platform, and shoot one significantly better than another?

[LockedBreech]

A) Dump it for a M&P that I don't shoot as well, and isn't nearly as good a gun.



Which gun still had the potential dead striker problem again, VP9 or M&P?

Sorry, couldn’t help it, fanboys (me) gonna fanboy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

Hk incorporates a step in the chamber, called a "fouling ring", which they've been doing for a long time (at least in 9mm). Their stepped barrels do not play well with anything other than brass casings.

ETA: Photo jacked from HKPro.
47634

[Bucky]

Hk incorporates a step in the chamber, called a "fouling ring", which they've been doing for a long time (at least in 9mm). Their stepped barrels do not play well with anything other than brass casings.

ETA: Photo jacked from HKPro.
47634

This works too.. if you stick to brass cases. I can go 200 rounds through my P2000 and it looks unfired.

[Exiledviking]

HK specifically states in the owner's manual to only use brass cased ammunition.
If it's for "duty use", why would you run any of the cheap ammunition thru it?

FWIW, I have an accurate KKM 40-to-9mm conversion barrel in a G22 that chokes on any ammo that's not brass cased. To me that's perfectly acceptable.

[revchuck38]

Hk incorporates a step in the chamber, called a "fouling ring", which they've been doing for a long time (at least in 9mm).

At least they got rid of the flutes. :)

My Walther's chamber has a constriction that starts about in the same place as that ring. It's easy to tell, when looking at fired brass, which was shot in the Walther.

[StraitR]

My Walther's chamber has a constriction that starts about in the same place as that ring. It's easy to tell, when looking at fired brass, which was shot in the Walther.

Correct. Must be a German thing.

[RANDY_MARSH]

HK specifically states in the owner's manual to only use brass cased ammunition.
If it's for "duty use", why would you run any of the cheap ammunition thru it?

FWIW, I have an accurate KKM 40-to-9mm conversion barrel in a G22 that chokes on any ammo that's not brass cased. To me that's perfectly acceptable.

I'd like to know that if I needed to use steel, aluminum, or anything other than brass - it would work. Which it doesn't. But I guess that's by design.

[Caballoflaco]

Correct. Must be a German thing.

The step was part of the original chamber design by no other than George himself. Here’s something I found in a quick google search:

“G. Luger patented the "offset obturation"or 0.1mm chamber step in 1910, to ensure the chamber sealed gasses when firing the tapered case 9mm( like the bottle necked 7.65mm cartridge accomplished). The stepped chamber was eliminated in the P.08 by the army in late 1941 and early 1942 because of extraction problems when firing the new steel cased cartridges.

For more information see "The Mauser Parabellum" by Hallock & van de Kant and "Pistole Parabellum" by Görtz & Sturgess.”

[medic15al]

The VP9 and the M&P 2.0 fit me as well as the Hi-Power.

But I noticed my M&P (Compact 4 in) will not group ANY 147 grn bullet, and meh on most 124 grain. The Federal 9BPLE would stack all 15 rounds in a golf ball sized group.

My VP9 groups all weights equally well. and defiantly no steel or aluminum cased stuff. Hates it worse than a 5 year old eating broccoli...

[Clusterfrack]

The VP9 and the M&P 2.0 fit me as well as the Hi-Power.

But I noticed my M&P (Compact 4 in) will not group ANY 147 grn bullet, and meh on most 124 grain. The Federal 9BPLE would stack all 15 rounds in a golf ball sized group.

My VP9 groups all weights equally well. and defiantly no steel or aluminum cased stuff. Hates it worse than a 5 year old eating broccoli...

You could send it back to S&W for a barrel lockup fix, but after two tries they still couldn’t make my buddy’s two M&P Pros stop shooting shotgun patterns.

[medic15al]

You could send it back to S&W for a barrel lockup fix, but after two tries they still couldn’t make my buddy’s two M&P Pros stop shooting shotgun patterns.

It's already gone... I've heard of the issues since, and thought for sure they addressed them.

[Clusterfrack]

It's already gone... I've heard of the issues since, and thought for sure they addressed them.

I'm not the right person to comment on this, since I am not an S&W fan. At all. Maybe you know the Offspring song, Pretty Fly (For A White Guy)? To me the M&P is the guy they're talking about.

[RANDY_MARSH]

I'm going to a match on saturday and i'll probably just take the VP9.

On Wendesday or thursday i'll post some actual data. Same drills, pics, times and deduce from there.

Thanks for the input guys.

[kwb377]

I'd like to know that if I needed to use steel, aluminum, or anything other than brass - it would work. Which it doesn't. But I guess that's by design.Other than some type of unlikely "battlefield pick-up" situation, how might you find yourself forced to use steel or aluminum cased ammo?

[RANDY_MARSH]

Other than some type of unlikely "battlefield pick-up" situation, how might you find yourself forced to use steel or aluminum cased ammo?

I buy bulk ammo. I've bitten on a few sub $150 deals per 1k of steel 9mm before. I stack them away. I still have plenty of brass lying around, but for now I save the steel for the M&P and my CZ75.

[LockedBreech]

It's already gone... I've heard of the issues since, and thought for sure they addressed them.

My 2.0s outshoot my Gen4 Glocks in my hands and in others. 2.0 S&Ws are fine in the accuracy department. One man’s experience anyway.

I anticipate my incoming Gen5 19 will impress, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MGW]

I would sell all of them and buy something else. But I’ve also been known to go through guns like normal people go through underwear.

[19852+]

The step was part of the original chamber design by no other than George himself. Here’s something I found in a quick google search:

“G. Luger patented the "offset obturation"or 0.1mm chamber step in 1910, to ensure the chamber sealed gasses when firing the tapered case 9mm( like the bottle necked 7.65mm cartridge accomplished). The stepped chamber was eliminated in the P.08 by the army in late 1941 and early 1942 because of extraction problems when firing the new steel cased cartridges.

For more information see "The Mauser Parabellum" by Hallock & van de Kant and "Pistole Parabellum" by Görtz & Sturgess.”

Very interesting ! Thanks for the history lesson. All of this explains why my old P-30 did not like some of my reloads, they just wouldn't chamber even after resizing. But, the same ammo worked just fine in my other pistols. I finally traced it back to the brass I was using, I had picked up some range brass after a USPSA match and some of it had been loaded to 9mm major pressure. Use good brass from a trusted source was my lesson.

[kwb377]

I buy bulk ammo. I've bitten on a few sub $150 deals per 1k of steel 9mm before. I stack them away. I still have plenty of brass lying around, but for now I save the steel for the M&P and my CZ75.

I haven't bought steel 9mm before, wasn't sure how much it cost. I've been buying S&B brass 9mm from TargetSports for $166 / 1k shipped.

[ScotchMan]

I think it is valid to consider factors other than how well you shoot a given platform. That is certainly high on the list, but it is not the entire list. I shoot my 9mm PPQ more accurately than my Glock 19, but I shoot and carry the G19. It's a better size for carry, it is safer AIWB with the use of the gadget, I have many more magazine and holster choices, I feel more comfortable working on them, etc.

You will get better with any platform if you practice with it. Going back and forth between the two might be holding you back on the M&P.

[olstyn]

I buy bulk ammo. I've bitten on a few sub $150 deals per 1k of steel 9mm before. I stack them away. I still have plenty of brass lying around, but for now I save the steel for the M&P and my CZ75.


I haven't bought steel 9mm before, wasn't sure how much it cost. I've been buying S&B brass 9mm from TargetSports for $166 / 1k shipped.

If you shoot enough to buy ammo by the case, you should really look into reloading. My 9mm ammo costs me roughly $100 / 1K, and as an added bonus, I don't even have to think about whether or not steel- or aluminum-case ammo will run properly in my guns. Yes, there is an up front cost, but it is absolutely worth it long-term.

[45dotACP]

Sell it.

The reason I sold all my Glocks and stayed with Berettas and 1911s is that I no longer have any inclination to keep a gun that I don't absolutely love. I was always somewhat "Meh" on Glocks as compared to something else.

I shoot 1911s overwhelmingly because it's a gun that I just love. I'm aware of it's positive and negative aspects.

I do also have a few M&Ps if I feel so inclined. They have aftermarket barrels and can shoot extremely well. Better than most production grade 1911s tbh. I were to go back to shooting carry optics it would be with a M&P (if the 2.0 core models ever get out here).

Also, steel cased ammo is the PBR or Natty light of the gun world. Just don't do it bro [emoji23]

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[Sig_Fiend]

If the choice is only between the two, stick with the VP9 and just use brass.

If you have to use the M&P 2.0 for work, ditch the VP9. Go all-in and stop trying to serve two masters.

Steel / aluminum-cased ammo is like putting 87 octane in a Porsche. Self-imposed pain and mental anguish over a few bucks.

[VT1032]

I would not get hung up on reliability issues when using Russian steel cased ammo. I shot a ton of tulammo and wolf 9mm when I was a poor college kid and I had countless issues in otherwise reliable pistols. Lots of hard primers, i had a casing get stuck in a G26 barrel that had to get hammered out with a cleaning rod, and the last straw for me was when I had not one, but two squib loads in one range session. I stopped using it around 2014 or so and I've had few ammo related issues since. I've had semi decent luck with American made aluminum case ammo, but I mostly just buy quality brass cased stuff online by the case.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[kwb377]

If you shoot enough to buy ammo by the case, you should really look into reloading. My 9mm ammo costs me roughly $100 / 1K, and as an added bonus, I don't even have to think about whether or not steel- or aluminum-case ammo will run properly in my guns. Yes, there is an up front cost, but it is absolutely worth it long-term.


I was reloading pretty heavily for awhile, then I got on SWAT and became a Firearms Instructor at my agency so I had all the free ammo I wanted...I left my reloading set up at my old house for the new owner when we moved.

Later, between transferring agencies and going through a divorce I wound up a casual shooter for awhile (shooting twice a year at quals). I started shooting again seriously about a year and a half ago, and have started thinking about getting into reloading again. I just don't have the patience and meticulousness I used to, though...:)

[Duelist]

If you shoot enough to buy ammo by the case, you should really look into reloading. My 9mm ammo costs me roughly $100 / 1K, and as an added bonus, I don't even have to think about whether or not steel- or aluminum-case ammo will run properly in my guns. Yes, there is an up front cost, but it is absolutely worth it long-term.

Time isn’t free. I reload for calibers that the time:money:volume ratio makes sense for; currently, that does not include 9mm when cases of S&B can be had for a few bucks more than Wolf or Tula or Barnaul.

I used to load a lot of 9mm, but quit when I realized how much time I was spending doing it that I’d rather spend elsewhere. Like with the family, on the house, or actually shooting.

I do enjoy reloading, and make all of my hunting ammunition and most of my .38 and .357.

[CraigS]

I have been shooting a lot of CCI Independence aluminum case ammo. No problems at all.

[olstyn]

Time isn’t free. I reload for calibers that the time:money:volume ratio makes sense for; currently, that does not include 9mm when cases of S&B can be had for a few bucks more than Wolf or Tula or Barnaul.

I used to load a lot of 9mm, but quit when I realized how much time I was spending doing it that I’d rather spend elsewhere. Like with the family, on the house, or actually shooting.

I do enjoy reloading, and make all of my hunting ammunition and most of my .38 and .357.

We all have to make our own evaluations of what's worth it for our time. My personal evaluation is that the higher the volume of ammo shot, the more $ there is to be saved, so it's more and more worthwhile to reload. If a case of S&B costs $150 but I can load a case myself for $100 or $105, then it's a very significant savings. Yes, I'm "paying myself" at less than my hourly rate at my actual job, but it's not like I was otherwise using that time to make money anyway, so that type of argument never really seems like a fair comparison to me, and reloading is far from the only thing that I do myself to save money vs paying someone else. What can I say, I tend to be frugal that way. Comes from a lifetime of money being tight, I guess. That said, "I'd rather spend the money and have the time with my family" is an absolutely valid choice, too.

Back in the direction of the thread's topic, though, the point I was really trying to make is that steel- and aluminum-cased ammo, while cheaper than new brass-cased ammo, is still more expensive than loading your own. Someone in the position of the OP - trying to feed an HK cheap ammo - would likely be better served by loading their own than buying steel case. It would be cheaper, and presuming they have decent attention to detail, more reliable and possibly more accurate than steel case.

[Balisong]

Every HK, mine were P30s, that I fed steel case ammo to choked on it. Invariably within the first box, and sometimes within five rounds.
JoshS had two barrels erode and be declined for warranty work because HK determined it was due to aluminum ammo.
Use manufacturer's recommended ammo.


This is 2020. There is a metric ton of good guns on the market. Nobody needs to compromise. Shoot whatever works best for you and forget about everything else.

Wow I never knew this was a thing. How does aluminum case ammo erode barrels?

[YVK]

I was told that the aluminum didn't expand as well as brass did, allowing circulation of gasses between cartridge and chamber walls, and those gasses did the damage. I don't know if this is true though.

[Exiledviking]

I was told that the aluminum didn't expand as well as brass did, allowing circulation of gasses between cartridge and chamber walls, and those gasses did the damage. I don't know if this is true though.When I inquired with HK USA about using Federal Champion aluminum ammunition this was their reply:

"The reason we do NOT recommend the use of aluminum ammo is the gases from the powder will burn through the case and scar the breach-face and the chamber of the barrel."

[Duelist]

When I inquired with HK USA about using Federal Champion aluminum ammunition this was their reply:

"The reason we do NOT recommend the use of aluminum ammo is the gases from the powder will burn through the case and scar the breach-face and the chamber of the barrel."

Huh. That doesn’t seem likely.

[Alpha Sierra]

When I inquired with HK USA about using Federal Champion aluminum ammunition this was their reply:

"The reason we do NOT recommend the use of aluminum ammo is the gases from the powder will burn through the case and scar the breach-face and the chamber of the barrel."

What a crock of shit. Can't take seriously anyone who would say something so stupid

[Bucky]

When I inquired with HK USA about using Federal Champion aluminum ammunition this was their reply:

"The reason we do NOT recommend the use of aluminum ammo is the gases from the powder will burn through the case and scar the breach-face and the chamber of the barrel."


Huh. That doesn’t seem likely.

Perhaps it’s poor wording. If aluminum doesn’t expand and seal as good as brass, gasses could escape around the case.

[Alpha Sierra]

I was told that the aluminum didn't expand as well as brass did, allowing circulation of gasses between cartridge and chamber walls, and those gasses did the damage. I don't know if this is true though.

It's not true. Young's modulus (a measure of material's ability to deform under stress) is 70 GPa for aluminum and 100 - 120 GPa for brass. The higher Young's modulus is, the less a material will stretch (or expand) for a given force/pressure input.

[olstyn]

It's not true. Young's modulus (a measure of material's ability to deform under stress) is 70 GPa for aluminum and 100 - 120 GPa for brass. The higher Young's modulus is, the less a material will stretch (or expand) for a given force/pressure input.

Aluminum is almost never used pure. What alloy is used for aluminum-cased ammo, and does that number still apply for the alloy in question? For that matter, is that 100 - 120 GPa for cartridge brass or some other variety of brass?

[Alpha Sierra]

Aluminum is almost never used pure. What alloy is used for aluminum-cased ammo, and does that number still apply for the alloy in question? For that matter, is that 100 - 120 GPa for cartridge brass or some other variety of brass?

Fair question. I went and looked and here's what I found

This place makes large (25 mm OD and larger) aluminum cartridge cases and says it makes them from 6061-T6: http://www.jlometal.com/aluminum-alloy-cartridge-cases.html. The modulus of elasticity (Young's) of 6061-T6 is 68.9 GPa according to this data sheet: http://amet-me.mnsu.edu/UserFilesShared/DATA_ACQUISITION/mts/MaterialData/MaterialData_9391_Al-6061.pdf

I found a paper from Serbia studying the effects of corrosion on aluminum cartridge cases. They reference EN AW-5754 as the material studied. It's modulus is 68 GPa according to this: http://www.aalco.co.uk/datasheets/Aluminium-Alloy-5754-H22-Sheet-and-Plate_153.ashx.

Cartridge brass (CDA C26000 alloy) has a modulus of elasticity of 16000 Ksi (110 GPa): https://alloys.copper.org/alloy/C26000

So yeah, the statements made by HK about aluminum cartridge cases are still bullshit

[Alpha Sierra]

If aluminum doesn’t expand and seal as good as brass, gasses could escape around the case.

Aluminum expands more than brass for a given pressure and surface area. Whether it seals (against a given chamber) better may be debatable, but subjectively looking at the surface of brass and aluminum casings, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

I don't shoot much of it, but I've never had any problem with aluminum cased ammo in Glock, S&W, or CZ handguns.

[Clusterfrack]

Great information AS! But also consider that brass has much greater ductility than aluminum (can deform more without brittle fracture). I’m guessing that aluminum cases are over-engineered in thickness to prevent fracture, and so might not stretch as much during firing.

[EVP]

The reason I always thought Aluminum cased ammo was not recommended is because of how it expands more when fired, combine this with HKs stepped chamber and cases can get stuck.

To the OP, not sure if it was answered but is the only reason you are thinking a m&p 2.0 is because the ammo issue with the HKs and using ammo the recommend not using?

I would forget the 2.0 and get another vp9.

[Alpha Sierra]

Great information AS! But also consider that brass has much greater ductility than aluminum (can deform more without brittle fracture). I’m guessing that aluminum cases are over-engineered in thickness to prevent fracture, and so might not stretch as much during firing.

The formula for Young's can be used to calculate the change in length in response to a force (or pressure) and material thickness is not a part of it. So I'm pretty sure any difference in wall thickness between aluminum and brass cases (if there's even a difference) won't alter the expansion results.

[Clusterfrack]

The formula for Young's can be used to calculate the change in length in response to a force (or pressure) and material thickness is not a part of it. So I'm pretty sure any difference in wall thickness between aluminum and brass cases (if there's even a difference) won't alter the expansion results.

Awesome--a materials science discussion! Young's modulus is measured on the linear part of the stress-strain curve. As a material approaches its yield point, stress/strain typically declines. In ductile materials, the curve continues as irreversible deformation happens. In brittle materials, fracture occurs right away. I think what we are speculating about is whether aluminum cases are worse than brass at deforming to fit a chamber. I think they are, and that's supported by all the bulged "Glocked" brass. You don't see very bulged aluminum cases.

47855

[Alpha Sierra]

Awesome--a materials science discussion! Young's modulus is measured on the linear part of the stress-strain curve. As a material approaches its yield point, stress/strain typically declines. In ductile materials, the curve continues as irreversible deformation happens. In brittle materials, fracture occurs right away. I think what we are speculating about is whether aluminum cases are worse than brass at deforming to fit a chamber. I think they are, and that's supported by all the bulged "Glocked" brass. You don't see very bulged aluminum cases.

47855

What do you make of the % elongation at break (a measure of ductility) from the data sheets I linked?

From what I see, C26000 hovers around the 5 - 8% mark unless you go to some very soft tempers and 6061-T6 is all over the place from like 20% at near room temp to near 100% at elevated temps.

Wouldn't that suggest aluminum is more ductile (less brittle) than brass?

[JAH 3rd]

The owner's manual for my HK P2000 specifically prohibits the use of steel or aluminum cases due to issues with safe and reliable functioning. Cast lead bullets are also prohibited. This on page 15 of the manual.

We have all been down the road with a pistol we like that isn't 100%. We can sell the pistol, have it repaired then vetted, or buy a new one like the one we just sold. Maybe the first one wasn't quite right and trying another one may be the solution.

I use to measure the "feel" of a handgun by the 1911 government model. The 1911 just plain feels great in the hand. However, my thinking has changed since the intro of the M&P 2.0 series, 45acp platform. The new grip texture just flat works for me. The grip is just a bit larger than the 1911 and that works too.

Last month I purchased my first non-45acp Glock, a model 17 gen 5. Frankly, that pistol is the bomb! Love the grip texture, the grip angle, and trigger pull. 100% function. Aftermarket options are off the scale...there's so much out there to drool over. The pistol has the Glock night sights. I prefer just a bit more light on either side of the front sight, but these are workable. If I get another Glock, I probably get standard sights and change them out. I have on my Glock 21 Ameriglo Hackathorn sights and would probably put them on my next Glock. The wider rear sight notch works for me.....and my old eyes.

My point here is that my pistol journey is ongoing. I have arrived at the G17 gen 5. The future may bring more changes, but at the moment, it's the 17. Much practicing is in my future. Gotta go.......time to wipe the drool from my chin and change shirts.

To the OP, I hope you get things sorted out to your liking!

[Clusterfrack]

Great point! I think you're correct. I guess that's part of why aluminums are used in so many applications and brass isn't.


What do you make of the % elongation at break (a measure of ductility) from the data sheets I linked?

From what I see, C26000 hovers around the 5 - 8% mark unless you go to some very soft tempers and 6061-T6 is all over the place from like 20% at near room temp to near 100% at elevated temps.

Wouldn't that suggest aluminum is more ductile (less brittle) than brass?

[Alpha Sierra]

The owner's manual for my HK P2000 specifically prohibits the use of steel or aluminum cases due to issues with safe and reliable functioning. Cast lead bullets are also prohibited. This on page 15 of the manual.

We've already established that HK's comments about the reasons for the prohibition of the use of aluminum cases are simply nonsense. The fact their pistols seem to choke with aluminum cases when almost all others seem to run just fine is not a selling point for HK.

Their prohibition of lead bullets is even more comical. I did have a Glock 17 ten years ago and decided to see for myself how bad the lead "problem" with polygonal barrels was. At least in my sample of one, it turned out to be no problem at all with just minute traces of leading very close to the muzzle (which is common in almost all pistols I've ever owned) and none further down the barrel where pressures are the highest. So much for kabooms due to massive lead fouling, at least in the one I had.

Bottom line, most of the prohibitions about using lead bullets/non brass cases/reloads/etc found in gun user manuals are boilerplate designed to absolve the maker of as much liability as humanly possible and have no basis in fact or theory.

I treat most gun owner manuals like I treat the DO NOT REMOVE label on mattresses.

[rayrevolver]

The formula for Young's can be used to calculate the change in length in response to a force (or pressure) and material thickness is not a part of it. So I'm pretty sure any difference in wall thickness between aluminum and brass cases (if there's even a difference) won't alter the expansion results.

Yes, material thickness is part of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus

Find the Calculation Section. It states:
A is the actual cross-sectional area, which equals the area of the cross-section perpendicular to the applied force;

More info:
https://www.quora.com/Which-has-more-elasticity-steel-brass-or-aluminium

Interesting Stuff:
http://www.g2mil.com/aluminum-ammo.htm

...thinking out loud. If AL cases are lighter, you would think it would be an easy place to reduce the load or increase the ammo carried by our folks. I guess companies like Textron are skipping cases altogether for caseless ammo.

[JonInWA]

Interesting discussion. I've used some aluminum-cased Federal Champion on my HK VP40 and possibly on my P30L (I'd have to check my logbook) and had zero issues, operationally or visually discernible.

My thoughts at this point:

First, my current go-to practice and match ammunition is primarily Sellier & Bellot-9mm (124 gr). .40 (180 gr), .45 ACP (230 gr) and .357 Magnum (158 gr). It's brass-cased, clean and accurate, and I get it at an excellent price point-about $90 per 1,000. My fall-back is to go with American Eagle, at the same grainage per caliber. It's also excellent, but the S&B is a bit spicier, and more like my duty loads. However, be aware that S&B reputedly has harder primers, so vet with your weapon first is my suggestion.

Second, I always field-strip and clean my guns after use-what ToddG found when he was performing his marathon P30 test was that aluminum seemed to work well, provided the gun (specifically the barrel/chamber) was clean. I'd suggest that this constitutes a key factor in the successful use of aluminum-cased ammunition.

Third, in my experience and from discussions here, contemporary European 9mm pistols are usually primarily designed around 124 gr as the baseline/benchmark cartridge; and at least at standard pressure (.40 guns seem to be designed around 180 gr). The problem with some of the budget-priced aluminum-cased stuff (specifically in my experience, and verified by discussion with a Federal Customer Service Tech) is that it can be downloaded; so, in the case of Federal again, what was specifically recommended to me was American Eagle as opposed to Federal Champion-because the Champion Aluminum AND Brass have the exact same (light) powder loading...That finding came out of me barely making power factor (126-when the minimum floor was 125....) at a major IDPA Sanctioned match using Federal Champion Brass out of my Beretta 92D..THAT was a wake-up call, and prompted the inquiry to Federal.

I'm not saying that 115 gr won't work, or that aluminum-cased stuff won't work. But, at least in the case of HK, you're flouting a factory recommendation against the use of aluminum and steel, so why tempt the gods when there are equal, and frankly likely better brass-cased alternatives, both performance- and price-point wise?

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And, ammunition aside, in response to the OP's original question, if you want to like gun A, but don't shoot/trust it as much as gun B, you have to step back and objectively address the criteria involved.

-Is one a duty/issue gun?

-Is it a surmountable training issue?

-Is it because you have more experience/accumulated muscle memory on one versus the other?

-Are there other dispositive baseline criteria-such as price/value, reliability, durability, ease of maintenance, aftermarket support, etc.?

Objectively addressing these and similar other criteria, preferably with replicable, quantifiable data points can steer your decision.

I'm sure we all know "one guy" who shoots swell with a, say, Glock, but keeps going back to a 1911...

Best, Jon

[Alpha Sierra]

Yes, material thickness is part of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus

Find the Calculation Section. It states:
A is the actual cross-sectional area, which equals the area of the cross-section perpendicular to the applied force;

The cross sectional area perpendicular to the applied force is the area of the inside of the case where the pressure is contained. Think about the force vector of the expanding gas. At any given point in the interior of the case, that force is acting normally (perpendicularly) to it.

The wall thickness is parallel to the applied force.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Honestly, this may come off as arrogant... but I will make no apologies. I would not consider any S&W products at this point, their track record for dog shit is strong and the opposite side of the coin is H&K's long defended track record of not dog shit. I am not surprised you are having issues 'warming' to the M&P, despite being satisfied with the VP series. I find the VP series to be one of the most intuitive pistols on the market to just pick up and perform well without investing extreme amounts of time to master.

[olstyn]

First, my current go-to practice and match ammunition is primarily Sellier & Bellot-9mm (124 gr). .40 (180 gr), .45 ACP (230 gr) and .357 Magnum (158 gr). It's brass-cased, clean and accurate, and I get it at an excellent price point-about $90 per 1,000.

Where are you getting S&B 124 gr 9mm for $90/1000? That seems impossibly cheap, given that it's double that price on SG Ammo.

[JonInWA]

When I get home, I'll check my invoice/receipt, now I'm wondering if it's more like $190...hmmm, I just did my math-it's gotta be around $180-$190-SORRY, GUYS.

Best, Jon

[Alpha Sierra]

Where are you getting S&B 124 gr 9mm for $90/1000? That seems impossibly cheap, given that it's double that price on SG Ammo.

LOL no shit, I gots to get me some of dat!

[Balisong]

When I get home, I'll check my invoice/receipt, now I'm wondering if it's more like $190...hmmm, I just did my math-it's gotta be around $180-$190-SORRY, GUYS.

Best, Jon

I assumed you meant 190, that sounds right.

So now, do any of you guys smarter than me have an idea how 2 HK barrels were eroded by aluminum case ammo since HK's response doesn't make any mathematical sense?

[JonInWA]

Yep, it was $180 for 1K rounds of the S&B 124 gr, with a total of $198 including tax. Sorry for the brief vision of ammunition sugarplums, guys...My bad...(insert crestfallen emoji...)

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I assumed you meant 190, that sounds right.

So now, do any of you guys smarter than me have an idea how 2 HK barrels were eroded by aluminum case ammo since HK's response doesn't make any mathematical sense?

I recall in our Glock Armorer's course in Sept 2018, there was a discussion of non-toxic primers being a causal factor for that sort of thing; that makes sense. I'd be more inclined to believe that-and I have no idea if aluminum case ammunition manufacturers are concurrently using such non-toxic primers; if so that could lead to the attributive blame.

Best, Jon

[NWshooter]

Yep, it was $180 for 1K rounds of the S&B 124 gr, with a total of $198 including tax. Sorry for the brief vision of ammunition sugarplums, guys...My bad...(insert crestfallen emoji...)

Best, Jon

That’s what I’m getting it for from one of the shops in Tacoma as well.

[MGW]

I assumed you meant 190, that sounds right.

So now, do any of you guys smarter than me have an idea how 2 HK barrels were eroded by aluminum case ammo since HK's response doesn't make any mathematical sense?

My first thought was some kind of galvanic reaction with the stainless steel in the barrel. But I know next to nothing about that.