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View Full Version : The effect of a low sun angle on red dot optics



GJM
01-19-2020, 10:34 AM
Getting to spend time in AZ during the winter is awesome, with all the sunshine. However, you get low sun angles in the winter, and they can really mess with red dot pistol optics. I took pictures of the RMR, Acro, SRO, Romeo 3 Max and RTS2. The RMR is bad, showing a flock of dots, the Acro has multiple dots including a translucent colored one, the SRO has two main dots, while the RTS2 and Romeo 3 Max are awesome in a low sun angle. It is important to start with a clean lens, as debris on the lens makes things a lot worse.

RMR:
47452


Acro:
47453



SRO:
47454


Romeo 3 Max:
47455



RTS2:
47456

GJM
01-19-2020, 10:37 AM
I forgot to mention the DP Pro, which we really aren’t using much anymore. It is better than the RMR, but worse than all the others in a low sun angle.

Also, imperfections on the lens, like you might get from brass repeatedly hitting the lens, make things worse.

GJM
01-19-2020, 10:41 AM
The RMSc is excellent in the low sun. Lens doesn’t look bad after three months or so of EDC.

47457

miller_man
01-19-2020, 03:07 PM
Good info.

From the pics, it doesn't look like the sigs are in direct sunlight like the others though. Maybe just looks different in the pics?

GJM
01-19-2020, 03:27 PM
In each instance, I held the optic in the most unfavorable light, since that is what the worst case scenario is. With the Romeo 3 Max and RTS2, it didn’t matter as you only got one dot.

Here is the Max yesterday morning.

47463

MVS
01-19-2020, 03:43 PM
Definitely a problem I am familiar with using the DPP and RMR though they are great compared to my short time with the Vortex offerings. Seeing that Max 3 looking so good I went and checked one out online. Judging by the price, Sig is pretty proud of that optic.

miller_man
01-19-2020, 04:05 PM
Ah, now I SEE :p

Didn't doubt your subjectivity GJM - just thought it looked pretty different in the pictures.

rob_s
01-19-2020, 05:18 PM
What size dot in the RTS2? I assume pretty large?

GJM
01-19-2020, 06:02 PM
What size dot in the RTS2? I assume pretty large?

It is 6 moa, which is about the size most USPSA shooters consider ideal, although there are certainly those that prefer smaller and larger dots.

If you carry or compete with a red dot, it is worth your time to pull the slide off and go look at worse case low sun angles to figure out how they might affect your optic, will BUIS work if you get multiple dots, and what your plan is if neither your dot or BUIS are usable.

tlong17
01-20-2020, 10:41 AM
Thanks for the quality post. Do you still have a R1 Pro to test the same? I have to imagine it would be the same as the R3Max unless there is something different other than the larger viewing window.

GJM
01-20-2020, 01:15 PM
Thanks for the quality post. Do you still have a R1 Pro to test the same? I have to imagine it would be the same as the R3Max unless there is something different other than the larger viewing window.

I will test the R1 Pro, Holosun 507 and DP Pro as soon as we get another sunny morning. I think, but am not certain, that the R1 Pro and R3 Max are made in different places.

Casual Friday
01-21-2020, 09:48 AM
Not a pistol mounted optic, but Russell Phagan aka Sinistral Rifleman posted this match video from Saturday where he had a hell of a time on the first stage facing direct sunlight.


https://youtu.be/na_bctI21Ow

TicTacticalTimmy
02-02-2020, 08:29 PM
This happened to me today and bugged the heck out of me!

Holosun 507C. At 4:30 PM in northern AZ, I believe about 1.5 hours before sunset. I was shooting a steel plate at 25yds. To get to that distance, I was standing at a different angle than I was the rest of my range trip. The sun was directly behind my back.

I started shooting... and missing about 50% of the time. I called the shots good and this really irked me... I started thinking maybe my zero is off... maybe my shot calling is garbage... etc. I looked through the lens to get an idea of how close my sight picture needed to be.... and saw two dots. Basically there was a second dot directly above the actual dot, and this dot was visible earlier in the draw stroke, causing me to pull the trigger while I was aimed very low.

I was very disturbed by this, especially because there was no way I would be able to tell this from the actual dot in a social situation. It looked almost identical to the actual dot just a bit less bright and less circular. I will definitely be paying attention to this issue when making future red dot purchases.

Kirk
02-03-2020, 11:25 AM
Good lord at the SRO. Lol.

I'm new to dots and really, really wish there was a go-to, reliable optic with a big window that works equally well for CCW as competition. It seems, from reading this sub-forum, that we are still a little ways away. Was really hoping the SRO would be the one.

frozentundra
02-09-2020, 08:21 PM
This happened to me today and bugged the heck out of me!

Holosun 507C. At 4:30 PM in northern AZ, I believe about 1.5 hours before sunset. I was shooting a steel plate at 25yds. To get to that distance, I was standing at a different angle than I was the rest of my range trip. The sun was directly behind my back.

I started shooting... and missing about 50% of the time. I called the shots good and this really irked me... I started thinking maybe my zero is off... maybe my shot calling is garbage... etc. I looked through the lens to get an idea of how close my sight picture needed to be.... and saw two dots. Basically there was a second dot directly above the actual dot, and this dot was visible earlier in the draw stroke, causing me to pull the trigger while I was aimed very low.

I was very disturbed by this, especially because there was no way I would be able to tell this from the actual dot in a social situation. It looked almost identical to the actual dot just a bit less bright and less circular. I will definitely be paying attention to this issue when making future red dot purchases.

Maybe the 8 MOA circle or circle-dot reticles have an advantage in these situations?

TicTacticalTimmy
02-09-2020, 08:31 PM
Maybe the 8 MOA circle or circle-dot reticles have an advantage in these situations?


Good idea. Next time I am at the range at this time of day I will try to get the angle just right again, and then switch to circle only.

miller_man
02-10-2020, 08:44 PM
I don't know. For carry, I think we all would agree BUIS are a must. Looking at the pictures, blacked out irons seem to be in the perfect lighting to stand out quite well - I would think shooting irons would work out pretty well. The focus on the pictures appears to be set to pick up the dot, but looks like the irons would be standing out a whole lot.

Now, having the experience and quick wits to switch that quickly to the irons may or may not be so easy or instinctive. I know I am pretty darn addicted and set to just look for/use the dot.

TicTacticalTimmy
02-11-2020, 04:00 PM
I don't know. For carry, I think we all would agree BUIS are a must. Looking at the pictures, blacked out irons seem to be in the perfect lighting to stand out quite well - I would think shooting irons would work out pretty well. The focus on the pictures appears to be set to pick up the dot, but looks like the irons would be standing out a whole lot.

Now, having the experience and quick wits to switch that quickly to the irons may or may not be so easy or instinctive. I know I am pretty darn addicted and set to just look for/use the dot.


The thing is with my specific optic and this experience, I didnt see anything that looked weird.... I saw a dot but it wasnt the correct dot. It wasnt until after I kept missing the target after calling my shots good that I realized something was amiss. How would you know to switch to BUIS when experiencing this under pressure ?

To correct the issue while shooting, I didnt need to switch to my BUIS, just align the gun perfectly so that the actual dot was on the target and the false dot was out of the screen. Maybe this whole concern could be avoided if I presented the gun better and did not have the gun aligned high before settling onto the target.

TicTacticalTimmy
03-16-2020, 06:46 PM
I was able to test this phenomenon further with my 507C and a newly acquired 407C-GR:

507c:
When in circle mode or circle/dot mode, the false dot is still visible. However, is is just a dot; not a circle. Therefore if you are used to looking for a circle or circle/dot reticle you would not mistake the false dot for the reticle. Yet another reason I need to pick up a 407CO to try out.

407c-gr:
With this optic, I could not get the false dot to appear!
This is a brand new 407c-gr, probably from the last batch prior to the v2s. It seems to have generally better lens quality than the 507. I am not an optics nerd, but I believe the correct term is that it has less abberation than the earlier produced 507. With my tiny sample size I have no idea if I got a good 407, a bad 507, or if the lens quality has improved over the months. Regardless, at this point my assumption is this phenomenon is caused by imperfections in the lens, and therefore probably varies from sample to sample from any given manufacturer.

TicTacticalTimmy
03-01-2021, 10:13 PM
Last weekend I was at the range shooting my Holosun 407CO (8MOA ring) as the sun was going down. The sun was directly behind me and at the worst possible angle.

I got an artifact that looked kind of like 3 bloomed dots clustered together at the very right hand side of the window. It was different enough from the reticle and also far enough away from it that I didn't have any concern of mistaking it for my reticle when drawing/shooting at speed. The 407CO is good to go with low sun angles for me.

It's remarkable how much more I like the CO reticle than anything else I have used, for everything from hosing to shooting from sandbags to long range precision. Really hope they add this reticle to more of their sights.

frozentundra
03-06-2021, 11:18 AM
Last weekend I was at the range shooting my Holosun 407CO (8MOA ring) as the sun was going down. The sun was directly behind me and at the worst possible angle.

I got an artifact that looked kind of like 3 bloomed dots clustered together at the very right hand side of the window. It was different enough from the reticle and also far enough away from it that I didn't have any concern of mistaking it for my reticle when drawing/shooting at speed. The 407CO is good to go with low sun angles for me.

It's remarkable how much more I like the CO reticle than anything else I have used, for everything from hosing to shooting from sandbags to long range precision. Really hope they add this reticle to more of their sights.

Do you have an opinion about the auto brightness feature with the 407CO (8MOA ring reticle)? Do you think it's bolder (more useful) in auto mode than some of the other reticles, or do you just run it in manual mode?

TicTacticalTimmy
03-06-2021, 08:46 PM
Do you have an opinion about the auto brightness feature with the 407CO (8MOA ring reticle)? Do you think it's bolder (more useful) in auto mode than some of the other reticles, or do you just run it in manual mode?

For serious use I run it in manual mode, I just dont trust a computer sensor to do what I want personally. On my .22 I leave it in auto mode and it has been good to go on all range conditions I have used it in. It still will not work well if you are in a dark room shooting into a sunny outdoor space. Or if you use a WML in a dark room.

Erick Gelhaus
03-07-2021, 01:01 PM
Fwiw, taught on an east-west oriented range in New England this past week with late winter sun angles. A couple of students with Trij RMRs found the dual dot experience in the morning (sun to right front) and afternoon (sun from right rear, low) as well.

breakingtime91
06-11-2023, 02:13 AM
Tried a rmr and 509t early this morning and when sun was going down in New Mexico.. besides some other personal issues I have been having with dots, it has me heavily considering going back to irons for now.

G19Fan
06-15-2023, 09:50 AM
Tried a rmr and 509t early this morning and when sun was going down in New Mexico.. besides some other personal issues I have been having with dots, it has me heavily considering going back to irons for now.

Did you have your issue with dot or circle dot?

G19Fan
06-15-2023, 09:55 AM
Tried a rmr and 509t early this morning and when sun was going down in New Mexico.. besides some other personal issues I have been having with dots, it has me heavily considering going back to irons for now.

We do have one gun kept irons only, seems beneficial to have for concealment and general size purpose

breakingtime91
06-15-2023, 12:11 PM
Did you have your issue with dot or circle dot?

I tried it again and didn't have as big of a problem. Let me try it tonight with the circle only and circle dot options. I saw your other message, a big thing for me leaning towards irons is the concealment part. The rmr on my 26 prints making the 26 harder to conceal than a p2000 with irons.

1slow
06-15-2023, 12:22 PM
I had wondered about this with the Holosun 509T on my LTT / Lipseys HK USP 45s.

Any thoughts?

GJM
06-15-2023, 03:01 PM
Tried a rmr and 509t early this morning and when sun was going down in New Mexico.. besides some other personal issues I have been having with dots, it has me heavily considering going back to irons for now.

I find the 6 moa Holosun dots do well enough with low sun angles, but the 2 moa dots not so good, and I carry those in circle only.

G19Fan
06-18-2023, 12:03 AM
I find the 6 moa Holosun dots do well enough with low sun angles, but the 2 moa dots not so good, and I carry those in circle only.


Started carrying circle dot in TX due to eps carry being washed out in TX sun and low sun angles

Dov
09-30-2023, 03:16 PM
Do Red Dots like T2 cope with low sun better?

Or support accessories that help?

HCM
09-30-2023, 04:13 PM
Do Red Dots like T2 cope with low sun better?

Or support accessories that help?

I have never seen Low sun angle / ghost dot issues with carbine optics whether Aimpoint style or EoTech style.

I noticed from your other thread that you seem to be lumping all red dot optics together.

There are reasons why there are different types of red dots for use on long guns versus pistols and they are better considered separately.

One is the weight of most carbine optics has a negative effect on reliability of the gun when mounted on a pistol slide. Another is that the additional G forces of being mounted on a pistol slide, can be hard on some carbine optics.

For example, while in the early days of pistol red dots, some people mounted Aimpoint micros (T1/H1) on pistol slides, the G forces would quickly break the rotating brightness adjustment of the Aimpoint micros.

That’s not a knock against the micros, it’s simply too far outside of what they were designed for.

Dov
09-30-2023, 06:53 PM
I'm not very interested in Red Dots for Pistols, mainly revolver and shotgun and possibly as secondary option on rifle/carbine.

I thought the larger than pistol sized Red Dots would be better in multiple ways than the ones designed for pistol slides, other than not possibly not being suitable for the reciprocating stresses of being slide mounted like you mentioned

rojocorsa
09-30-2023, 07:01 PM
Out of all the dots Ive messed with, which weren't too many, the only one I couldn't replicate it with was the Steiner MPS (I wonder if thats because its inverted?)

HCM
10-01-2023, 01:27 AM
Out of all the dots Ive messed with, which weren't too many, the only one I couldn't replicate it with was the Steiner MPS (I wonder if thats because its inverted?)

I think it is because the emitter is top mounted. Unfortunately the top mounted emitter also seems make it visually “busy” when used with a target focus. Busy is not good.