Let's Rehash - Is USP the Answer For Hammer H&K (Is P-Series An Actual Improvement)

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

So, I'm tossing around the idea here because why not. Seems there would be an awful lot of fans in either camp, but I am curious what exactly puts you in one camp or the other. I have both (P30L & USP Full Size) chambered in .40, so I have developed some of my own feelings towards this matter which I will not share just yet. Also, VP is a thing now... and it's pretty slick and I think I've finally came to terms with how to approach it correctly. So pull up a chair beside the campfire and do tell, all the juicy details in your honest opinion.

[AJD21]

For the current price is hard to choose a USP over a P2000 or P30. I like the size of the P2000 and the lack of a groove in the trigger guard, sight options are limited.

The bomb proof, overbuilt aspect of the USP is best suited for the .40 or .45. It’s overbuilt for 9mm and the gun cycles slow in 9mm.

The blocky grip of the USP doesn’t “feel” as good but for shooting I actually find it to be best for gripping the gun well.

Overall, I would go P30 if I wanted the best “do all” option.

[medic15al]

I was a USPc guy until I fired a VP9. My VP9 is the first choice for duty (If I still did that) or carry.

The P30 feels just as good in my hands, but I prefer the striker over the DA/SA or LEM.

[Danjojo]

As far as HK's go I only get the USP series and briefly play with the others. A general observation...

Grip shape/texture options, sighting and lighting options are basically the only advancements we've made on 90's pistol designs. Even then, only an improvement if they are actually the use/carry preference for whatever individual.

New is fun, older has some history and mystique.

[GJM]

The dual recoil spring that makes the FS USP 45 able to digest a wide spectrum of ammo, including Super, does the “pogo” in the USP FS and Expert 9 models.

[Alembic]

I voted for my USPc9, with a TLG LEM trigger.

I like the USP grip better than the P30 or the P2000. The P2000 grip is not as sharp as the USP, it’s more like the HK45c. The P2000seems like a side step, the P30 is a step forward in features and has proven itself for high round counts. It has the decocker button and the Spider-Man grip. That may work better for some people. Nothing wrong with a P30.

But the USP has more trigger variants than either of the P’s. A USP can switch from LEM to DS/SA, can you do that with P30? You want a decocker or a safety, or both, you can have it on a USP. I think there 7 different trigger variants for the USP.

The stock HK parts, USP TLG LEM trigger has shorter reset, and not a bad break. Not a gamer trigger, but a practical trigger.

It cycles Underwood Leigh Extreme Penetrators.
Dark Star and JMCK makes holsters for it.

Sight options are limited, are there more options for the P’s?

[Bergeron]

I owned a USP9F for 5 years, I rented a P30 once, and my vote was for the USP.

I really thought that I would fall head over heels for the P30, but I didn’t.

The big negatives for the USP during my time with it was that it was thick for a carry pistol, and the stock DA pull was tough. Knowing what I know now, I would have just had it swapped into LEM mode. The rail is obsolete, but adapters are out there. I never had an unintentional decocking.

I loved the grip shape and texture, the shape, size, and location of the controls, and the generally bombproof nature of the gun.

Before I rented the P30, I was excited about the ambidexterity, but the grip wasn’t as rough, it was more rounded than I liked for my index, and shape and size of controls just wasn’t as satisfying as the USP. That’s not to criticize the P30! Objectively, it’s got great controls and ergonomics, my hand just finds the USP friendlier. I could actually see putting USP Compact safeties and mag releases on the P30, and getting some custom grip work done, but I’d probably just buy another USP if I ever got back into
HK.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the smooth USP trigger, much preferable to me than the serrated P30. Picky, picky.

[farscott]

I believe the reason HK still offers the different pistols is because there is no single, correct simple answer. If the caliber is .45 ACP, there is no P30 in that cartridge, making the choice easy. The P30 decocking lever is located in a much different place than the USP9. I prefer the USP9 location, but I prefer LEM models. If the decocker is needed, the USP9 is the better choice. If one wants to run the safety, the P30S is better because there is no ambi safety for the USP.

I have or had the USP9, the P30, and the VP9, and in 9x19, and, for me, the P30 is the best choice. The P30 cycles pretty much every 9x19 round without the recoil feeling two-stage. The short(er) slide and full-size grip frame work well with the round. The funny thing is that the P30L is not reliable with weaker 9x19 rounds that the P30 digests. The P30L is quite nice with heavier ammo. The one benefit for the VP9 is the longer sight radius, but that is offset by the lack of SCD for the VP9.

The P30 is hammer fired, making it safer to holster than the VP9. Then we get to the magazine release, and the P30's release is easier to manipulate. For me, the biggest difference is the grip. While others may like the USP, the ability to make the P30 grip circumference smaller is a big deal for me.

[JonInWA]

I prefer the P30; mine is a P30L in LEM. The ergos and trigger on mine are excellent. I view the P30 as a "product improved" USP. Obviously, the "improvement" is only as appropriate as the pistol individually fits a given individual-for me, it does, exceptionally well.

My VP is a .40(My P30L is also in .40). It's the fastest, easiest to fire pistol in .40 that I have. My preferences are for the P30L in LEM as a duty .40, and the VP40 for self-defense, hiking with my wife (it's an easy gun for her to operate to pass to her if necessary, and the leas punishing in .40) and IDPA (due to it's inherent shootability).

If I were to go to an HK in .45 ACP, I'd be very open-minded between the USP and HK45/HK45C. The proprietary rail of the USP is a non-issue for me, as I'm not interested in rail-mounted lights, so I'd simply choose the one with the best ergos-and I'd probably prefer an LEM version in my choice, which is available for all three.

Best, Jon

[echo5charlie]

I'm far from a TDA guy and LEM is cool and all, but if I had the choose a TDA HK it would be the USPf as the ergos actually work for me. The P30 requires a swap of the slide stop levers to the S version and I don't like the rear decocking button. The P2000 requires the slim levers and ditto for decocking. The USPc is too small in the grip so the safety/decocker actually become uncomfortable quickly, however the USPc .45 would be the exception. Both the USPc 9/40/357 and P2000 have grips that are short enough (for me) that reloads can pinch and require a "tea pinky".

So for me (TDA versions):

USPf .45 --> USPf 9/40 --> USPc .45 --> P30 --> P2000 --> USPc

[Leroy]

I really like the grip and trigger on the USP over the P30. The USP has a more standard grip that is easier to conform to because it is similar to most other guns out there. I find the USP to be easier to bounce into and just pick up and shoot. I also shoot the USP very accurately but the shot recovery time can be aggravating. The P30 deffinitely has some features I really like. I think it has one of the better slide designs I have encountered in a duty style DA/SA. Conceals well, the slide serrations and slide shape are very agreeable to me. I also think it is probably one the most flat shooting, light weight, plastic DA/SA guns out there. I do not like the P30 grip, and I think the VP9 feels a little worse. The large dished out beavertail area prevents a good grip unless I run a smaller backstrap which makes it fairly small for a good two hand grip. The trigger guard on the P30 is silly.

I am of the thought that the shooter needs to conform to the pistol as a general rule (some people and some guns will never mix well). I think if I gave the P30 a year of work I would probably end up preferring it to the USP but the HKs tend to not be my primary shooters so I don't know if that will ever happen.

[OlongJohnson]

I believe the reason HK still offers the different pistols is because there is no single, correct simple answer. If the caliber is .45 ACP, there is no P30 in that cartridge, making the choice easy.

As Jon points out, the HK45 exists, which is basically a Spiderman grip and Pic rail wrapped around a USP trigger system.


The P30 decocking lever is located in a much different place than the USP9. I prefer the USP9 location, but I prefer LEM models. If the decocker is needed, the USP9 is the better choice. If one wants to run the safety, the P30S is better because there is no ambi safety for the USP.

False. Both lefty and ambi safety levers exist for USP full size and compact. MGW has part numbers. Call HK Web Shop for availability and likely better pricing.

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/hk-usp/safety-lever.html


The P30 is hammer fired, making it safer to holster than the VP9. Then we get to the magazine release, and the P30's release is easier to manipulate.

The HK45c mag catch can be altered very easily to fit properly and work reliably in USP FS and compact models. DON'T use it without modifications (discussed in other threads). It's big and blocky and obnoxious, but it's easy enough to shave the plastic to shape it any way you want.


The USPc is too small in the grip so the safety/decocker actually become uncomfortable quickly, however the USPc .45 would be the exception.

I also find the control lever on the USP compact impacts the inside of my strong hand thumb right on the knuckle and raises a blister if I shoot enough. It's painful enough that it subconsciously effects my grip, which leads to performance issues. I even have the problem to a lesser extent on the .40 FS; the .45 FS is big enough it hasn't been noticeable. I've shaved the corner off a lever to relieve this interference, but don't have rounds downrange with it yet. (Vendor issues have kept me from assembling the pistol I was going to try it in.) It looks promising, though. LEM obviously eliminates the problem completely.

FWIW, I've handled a bunch of 1911s where the back of the safety lever hits me in the same place; I'd have to work on those a bit if I owned them.

I voted for both USP and USPc; it's slabsides and pick the one you want based on concealability, weight, caliber and capacity. The Spiderman grip, and in particular the whole concept of the backstrap shape, makes the P30 a non-starter for me. I'm just starting to work with P30 15-rd mags in the USPc; it's not lost on me that that equalizes capacity versus the USP FS.

[2xAGM114]

P30. Ergonomics, technologically advanced design, V1 LEM as a factory option, holster options more widely available.

[SCCY Marshal]

I really dig my first year match triggered USP in .40 with ambi control lever, aftermarket plain irons, and safety-only plate and use it for bush-league 3 Gun. But I carry my heavy LEM converted 40 caliber USP compact. My posurp 45 caliber USP compact is so similar to the 40 cal. that I often run it dry in drills thinking I have four more rounds as in the other gun. Picking a favorite of the bunch, it's be the fullsize by a hair. Fits my meathooks well and just jives with me in much the same way a Beretta 92 does.

The P30 is nice but not for me and I hate almost everything about the P2000. Not sure any is truly better than another but rather some just click with certain people.

[farscott]

False. Both lefty and ambi safety levers exist for USP full size and compact. MGW has part numbers. Call HK Web Shop for availability and likely better pricing.

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/hk-usp/safety-lever.html.

I knew about the option to move the lever to or from the left side, but I did not know there was an ambi lever. I also do not see that the ambi safety is available from OEM pistols from HK. It appears to be left side or right side, but not both? Is that correct?

[Hunter Rose]

I knew about the option to move the lever to or from the left side, but I did not know there was an ambi lever. I also do not see that the ambi safety is available from OEM pistols from HK. It appears to be left side or right side, but not both? Is that correct?

HK has ambi-control levers available for both the USP and USP compacts. Just look to the USP Expert and Elite. The ambi-lever comes standard on those.

For other USP models, it’s easier to just order the part and have it installed.

[Hunter Rose]

For the original question, neither the USP or P30 is perfect IMO. The triggers are slightly better on the USPs, mainly for the shorter takeup and length of travel. Also the availability of Match trigger parts on the USP.

The P30 has better recoil/sight tracking characteristics due to the regular recoil assembly.

My perfect pistol would be a USP9 frame with a P30L slide and metal 17-rd mags for the USP frame.

[the Schwartz]

I chose the full-size USP simply because I do my best and most accurate shooting with it. I have the pistol in both 9mm and .45ACP, like how it fits my hands, and have no immediate plans to depart from the design anytime soon.

I've used the USP45 to take whitetail deer as far as 50 yards out and see it as kind of a "do it all" gun since it is also quite suitable for self-defense against threats of the two-legged kind.

[OlongJohnson]

Expert and Elite FS models come with ambi levers. I'm not sure which compact model, if any, came with them.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

The dual recoil spring that makes the FS USP 45 able to digest a wide spectrum of ammo, including Super, does the “pogo” in the USP FS and Expert 9 models.

Have you experimented with using hot and heavy ammo in the USP 9 models? Does it do the pogo regarldless of how warm or soft the ammo shoots?

[Bucky]

I own all but the full size USP. It was a hard choice between the P30 and USPc. Yeah, I know I could have voted both, but poll said favorite, so not sure why there was multiple choice.

The P2000 is the gun I so wanted to love, but don’t in any way (though I do like the SK). I’ve seen Several instances of USP plastic magazines not holding up under heavy use, but the gun itself is solid.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I own all but the full size USP. It was a hard choice between the P30 and USPc. Yeah, I know I could have voted both, but poll said favorite, so not sure why there was multiple choice.

The P2000 is the gun I so wanted to love, but don’t in any way (though I do like the SK). I’ve seen Several instances of USP plastic magazines not holding up under heavy use, but the gun itself is solid.

Because some people can’t pick just one lol

[GOTURBACK]

The dual recoil spring that makes the FS USP 45 able to digest a wide spectrum of ammo, including Super, does the “pogo” in the USP FS and Expert 9 models.

GJM
I just acquired a USP9 FS could you explain what you mean about doing the "pogo" is it the felt recoil impulse? Out of all the H&K handguns I own it is my only usp right now.

[Polecat]

USP could use an update. First, its over built for a 9mm, has much better reset in the LEM configuration than P30, would love to see it redone. Keep “squarish” HK look, down size it and thin it a tad, Give me Fullsize, compact, sub, and micro versions, throw their other guns out.

[GJM]

GJM
I just acquired a USP9 FS could you explain what you mean about doing the "pogo" is it the felt recoil impulse?

Yes, especially pronounced in the Expert 9mm.

[OlongJohnson]

Yeah. In the 9 Expert, I can usually notice the slide returning to battery much more slowly than in other guns, where I generally don't notice it at all.

[Bucky]

USP could use an update. First, its over built for a 9mm, has much better reset in the LEM configuration than P30, would love to see it redone. Keep “squarish” HK look, down size it and thin it a tad, Give me Fullsize, compact, sub, and micro versions, throw their other guns out.

You forgot to add, update the rail. ;)

[Salamander]

My current carry rotation is a USP45 full size as a woods gun, and a P2000 9mm in town, both LEM.

It all started with a pair of P2000's and a P2000sk, then I started moving to USP's and now I'm gradually deciding that I prefer the USP's. As others have said, the P-series pistols feel better in hand, but for me the blockier USP shoots better. Then there's the trigger, distinctly better in the USP series. And I don't use a light, so the rail is a non-factor.

I'm seriously considering selling or trading the P2000's (or a USPc 45 now that a fs version has the woods niche covered) and going to a USPc 9mm for in town carry, making my rotation all USP (except for a J-frame in NPE's).

As for the P30, they're off-roster in California thus carry about a 50% premium on the used market. So I've never even let myself be tempted.

[A-Train]

Nothing wrong with the USP (it’s a classic and built like a tank) but here is my vote.

47559

Even the HK45 is shaped like a big P30 (actually which came first? It’s like the chicken vs the egg). LOL!

[Balisong]

Nothing wrong with the USP (it’s a classic and built like a tank) but here is my vote.

47559

Even the HK45 is shaped like a big P30 (actually which came first? It’s like the chicken vs the egg). LOL!

Beautiful! Hard chrome? NP3?

[A-Train]

Beautiful! Hard chrome? NP3?

Thanks for the kind words. This finish is actually CPII by CCR. Here is their description.

CPII is a true composite plating process. It is an Electroless Nickel / Boron Nitride tank based plating system that incorporates Boron Nitride particles within the matrix of a phosphate system. Benefits include exceptionally low coefficient of friction, superior release and excellent wear resistance. CP II is perfect for applications that require the lubrication of Teflon but need more wear resistance. As wear occurs fresh particles of Boron Nitride are exposed continuing to ensure the lubricating factors though out. CPII also allows longer firing periods between cleaning and makes cleaning of your gun a breeze CPII is a multi facetted plating process that offers outstanding rust and corrosion protection Up to 10 times the protection of other plating such as Nickel/Teflon and Chrome CPII is far from your standard plating it is a true composite plating process that is made possible by the breakthroughs in Nano Technology CPII is also an Eco friendly process. CPII is the color similar to a Bead Blasted Stainless would look CPII will be available for steels. We do not plate anodized alloys.

It’s a great finish and extremely durable. Check out their website if you want to learn more. They do great work. Just for the record I do NOT work for this company. :cool:

http://www.ccrrefinishing.com/information.html

Here are some closer pictures

47636
47637
47638
47639
47640

[kihnspiracy]

I feel the USP really shines in .45acp caliber. I have a USP45 V1 and a USP45 Tactical LE V1 as my preferred .45acp pistols. I have a P30L V3 in 9mm that I actually prefer over the USP9.

[Leroy]

For the original question, neither the USP or P30 is perfect IMO. The triggers are slightly better on the USPs, mainly for the shorter takeup and length of travel. Also the availability of Match trigger parts on the USP.

The P30 has better recoil/sight tracking characteristics due to the regular recoil assembly.

My perfect pistol would be a USP9 frame with a P30L slide and metal 17-rd mags for the USP frame.

I have often thought that HK missed the boat hard on the P30. A USP9 frame with changeable backstraps, higher beavertail of the P30, P30 rail, and P30 slide would have been spectacular.

[GJM]

I have often thought that HK missed the boat hard on the P30. A USP9 frame with changeable backstraps, higher beavertail of the P30, P30 rail, and P30 slide would have been spectacular.

and P30 magazines.

[Borderland]

No, it isn't an improvement.

P30 has that very strange decocker setup. I just can't get my head around that. The very best design is to have that incorporated with the safety if you want a safety. Now if HK could build a P30 with a side decocker like a Sig P (no safety) or safety/decocker, you would have the perfect setup. That's the beauty of the USP, you can have it darn near anyway you want it. Safety/decockers have been around since WW2, you think HK could have worked that out on the P30. :( Otherwise it's a very nice pistol.

[JTQ]

P30 has that very strange decocker setup. I just can't get my head around that.
Conversely, it seems to me like a great design. Easily accessible and not in the way of your grip or slide manipulations.

Patrick E. Kelley on his P30L "Out of the Box to Match" review at the 6:10 mark and again at about the 16:00 mark talks about the decocker.


https://youtu.be/V3SeGMUISfM

[Borderland]

Conversely, it seems to me like a great design. Easily accessible and not in the way of your grip or slide manipulations.

Patrick E. Kelley on his P30L "Out of the Box to Match" review at the 6:10 mark and again at about the 16:00 mark talks about the decocker.


https://youtu.be/V3SeGMUISfM

Too much time on the levers is probably my hangup.:D It's a nice pistol for sure.

[Bucky]

No, it isn't an improvement.

P30 has that very strange decocker setup. I just can't get my head around that. The very best design is to have that incorporated with the safety if you want a safety. Now if HK could build a P30 with a side decocker like a Sig P (no safety) or safety/decocker, you would have the perfect setup. That's the beauty of the USP, you can have it darn near anyway you want it. Safety/decockers have been around since WW2, you think HK could have worked that out on the P30. :( Otherwise it's a very nice pistol.

From an engineering standpoint, the P30 Decocker is brilliant IMO.

[Borderland]

From an engineering standpoint, the P30 Decocker is brilliant IMO.

A lot of right handed people must like them.;)

Not real convenient for a left handed shooter because your thumb is on the other side of the pistol. I suppose you could use your opposing thumb but the controls should be a one handed operation IMO.

[JonInWA]

LEM for the win....

Best, Jon

[Bucky]

A lot of right handed people must like them.;)

Not real convenient for a left handed shooter because your thumb is on the other side of the pistol. I suppose you could use your opposing thumb but the controls should be a one handed operation IMO.

Hmm, it seems a little less convenient operating with the left hand, but nothing like a non ambi 1911 would be. It seems if you did move the lever to the left side, you’d only move it less than .5 inches. :confused:

[19852+]

I didn't vote as I have never used a USP 9mm. I had a P-30 which I liked but not enough to keep. If HK would sell the USP 9F for the same price as the P-30 I would have one. I really want a LEM model.

[LOKNLOD]

As a righty, I like the decocker setup, but ease of hitting it left handed is very dependent on hand size, I think. Watching Pat do it in the video above, he has some pretty big mitts and can move it over while fingers still maintain a good grip on on the gun. If you’ve got shorter, stubbier fingers that feels like it has less positive control, making you slow down a bit.

If you are just left handed and normally hitting it while both hands are in the gun, that’s less of an issue, and I also wouldn’t have much heartburn over using the opposite have thumb, much like a righty hitting a 1911 mag release or SIG decocker with the left thumb. But coming across/around the lowered hammer is what makes it tough.

So, hitting it WHO is not ideal but still doable for me with smallish hands.

[JAD]

I wear Mechanix size S. The P30 is the only HK DA I can reliably work the trigger on (and it's a struggle).

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I wear Mechanix size S. The P30 is the only HK DA I can reliably work the trigger on (and it's a struggle).

Glad this was mentioned, I am about to send my last USP (Full Size, traded Compact while back) packing in favor of standardizing on P30/VP series only from here on out for this very reason. I want to love the USP, but I think even H&K would admit they are not good fit for smaller handed people... hence the P-2000 grip. Which was in fact aimed at accommodating the smaller handed, further refined with the P30 which is indeed the best fit for us folks IMO.

There are a lot of great things going for the USP lineup, but sadly this is too great of a hangup to get over to reap the benefits I believe. I also find I really do not care for the ridiculously pointy checkering on the Full Size USP, the Compact seems to not be so bad in this regard and actually locks in quite a bit better for me anyways. I think the DA/SA trigger on the P30 is also an upgrade over the USP, I actually in fact do not mind the extra travel and see it as a margin of safety.

I absolutely love the shape of the slide on the USP, I feel that it draws the eye perfectly to the front sight. But again, here is an issue with the USP (poor sight choices)... factory are not good at all IMO whereas factory P30 are much better. I actually like the decocker location on the P30/P2000 series, definite upgrade there for myself. Another significant favorite of mine on the USP is the slide stop lever, I do not like the dangly thin long levers of the P30 that just feel like an afterthought (USP slide stop feels like a bank vault).

Another point of contention, for myself I find the USP to have very marginal balance qualities. The P30 especially and P30L point like an extension of your hand and feel perfectly balanced, this is even more apparent to me with the VP40 I own that just locks in beatifully for myself anyways, whereas the USP 40 of mine feels like it just wants to separate itself from your hand upon grabbing it. P30SK also has great balance for subcompact pistol, I need to try VP9SK some time as it seems to be incredible also.

[JTQ]

... I want to love the USP, but I think even H&K would admit they are not good fit for smaller handed people... hence the P-2000 grip. Which was in fact aimed at accommodating the smaller handed, further refined with the P30 which is indeed the best fit for us folks IMO.

I think that's primarily the full size USP's with the polymer mags.

The USP9c seems pretty small hand friendly. I believe our late forum member LSP972 was a smaller guy, at least smaller hands, and if I recall correctly, he preferred the USPc over the P2000/P30 guns.

The whole USP line-up seems like a solid one, but I'll note HK never used the polymer mags found in the USP9/40 in any other models. They may be great mags, but it tells me something that HK didn't continue their use in other guns.

[Bucky]

The whole USP line-up seems like a solid one, but I'll note HK never used the polymer mags found in the USP9/40 in any other models. They may be great mags, but it tells me something that HK didn't continue their use in other guns.

In my experience, the HK polymer mags weren’t so great under heavy use / abuse. Our range had a USP rental gun, and several mags had split and needed replacing.

[OlongJohnson]

Another point of contention, for myself I find the USP to have very marginal balance qualities. The P30 especially and P30L point like an extension of your hand and feel perfectly balanced, this is even more apparent to me with the VP40 I own that just locks in beatifully for myself anyways, whereas the USP 40 of mine feels like it just wants to separate itself from your hand upon grabbing it. P30SK also has great balance for subcompact pistol, I need to try VP9SK some time as it seems to be incredible also.

That is clearly very personal, as I find the opposite.

As far as trigger reach, I found that the trigger sold for the USP .45 FS (and I believe the other FS as well) appears to be identical as far as the steel yoke that interacts with the frame and trigger bar, but the trigger shoe gives a shorter reach compared to the serrated trigger used in the USP Compacts. So, theoretically, the .45/FS trigger could be used with a Compact to get a shorter reach for a couple of bucks. May have to trim the tip to prevent it running into the trigger guard or something. I've read comments to that affect in discussions of fitting a Match kit, but haven't gotten hands-on with it myself. Being a big-handed northern European, I stopped investigating when I found it would have shorter reach. Also, definitely verify it isn't travel limited by the frame anywhere close to where DA or SA break.

[spj]

I carried the USP 45 for about 10 years on duty, originally DA/SA then LEM converted shortly thereafter. (2001 or 2002 LEM conversion) About 10 (?) or so years ago we transitioned to the HK45. It felt so much better in the hand; however, that did not translate into shooting it better. I wish I had of bought it when we transitioned so I could run them together, but night sights were shot and $50 mags suck to buy as mine were done. I have a light LEM 9mm P2000 I thought would be my off duty answer. I cannot shoot it without short stroking pairs way too often. G19 works great for me off duty.