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View Full Version : Bob Vogel - 3.34 FAST



dookie1481
05-02-2012, 06:45 PM
Holy crap :eek:


http://youtu.be/ubqWMgxQt6k

DonovanM
05-02-2012, 06:48 PM
Haha, yep. He's the best shooter on the planet with ironsights right now, IMO.

VolGrad
05-02-2012, 07:09 PM
That's insane.

Question .... What did he call the drill (at around the 15 second mark)?

EVP
05-02-2012, 07:12 PM
Yea that is ridiculously fast. Not trying to take anything away but can those shooters vest "really" count as concealment. Probably would not matter much in regards to his time.

chuck s
05-02-2012, 07:15 PM
great reload, much lower gun position than I usually see fast shooters do

VolGrad
05-02-2012, 07:17 PM
Not trying to take anything away but can those shooters vest "really" count as concealment. Probably would not matter much in regards to his time.
Why wouldn't it? It hides the gun & holster, right? People wear them. I don't but some do. I do frequently wear open button down shirts as concealment. It's no different really.

EDIT: I just re-read my post. It wasn't intended to sound argumentative. Really.

Le Français
05-02-2012, 07:23 PM
It's interesting to see that his presentation of the gun to the target is anything but a "press out". Also, he leans back slightly as he fires the four shots after the reload, which seems counter-intuitive.

JHC
05-02-2012, 07:24 PM
Vol - he called it the "IDPA FAST drill" lol WTF?

That was fun to watch about 10 times so far. He leans back to reload up close. Interesting. And he's totally upright, nothing like the leaning into the gun to drive as I'm familiar with. Fascinating. And fast. LOL

VolGrad
05-02-2012, 07:26 PM
Vol - he called it the "IDPA FAST drill" lol WTF?
That's what I thought he said. :confused:

jetfire
05-02-2012, 07:27 PM
Haha, yep. He's the best shooter on the planet with ironsights right now, IMO.

Your man crush is adorable

rsa-otc
05-02-2012, 07:33 PM
If I remember correctly, a certain person whose first name is Dave used an IDPA vest as a concealment garment setting the previous record.

jetfire
05-02-2012, 07:35 PM
Vol - he called it the "IDPA FAST drill" lol WTF?

That was fun to watch about 10 times so far. He leans back to reload up close. Interesting. And he's totally upright, nothing like the leaning into the gun to drive as I'm familiar with. Fascinating. And fast. LOL

Bob has one of the strongest grips of any human being I know. And huge hands to boot, which seems to be a trait many top level GMs share.

fuse
05-02-2012, 07:39 PM
It's interesting to see that his presentation of the gun to the target is anything but a "press out". Also, he leans back slightly as he fires the four shots after the reload, which seems counter-intuitive.

It's possible its just so fast it doesn't look like a press out.

Or, his index is just so good.

YVK
05-02-2012, 07:41 PM
Vol - he called it the "IDPA FAST drill" lol WTF?


I had the same reaction.


It's interesting to see that his presentation of the gun to the target is anything but a "press out".

So was the case with Sevigny, I believe. These dudes have an insane confidence in their index, don't they.


Split time on 3x5 is pretty much the same as on 8 inch...is he really seeing the sights that fast or is he controlling the gun back to the index point with his 3.0 CoC grips?

DonovanM
05-02-2012, 08:06 PM
Your man crush is adorable

You don't know anything, go back to your Tanfoglio :D


These dudes have an insane confidence in their index, don't they.

Yes, but that's not really what's at work here. More along the lines of refinement of index, the degree to which aligning your gun where your eyes are pointing has become second nature.


Split time on 3x5 is pretty much the same as on 8 inch...is he really seeing the sights that fast or is he controlling the gun back to the index point with his 3.0 CoC grips?

Well, both, but seeing sights and calling shots, guaranteed. Especially at only a .23 split. It starts to get iffy below .20 and approaching .15/.16, which is about the limit for most people I think. But knowing exactly where your gun is going to end up is also important. These guys have put so many rounds downrange with their guns... they just know.

I don't mean to put down the usage of them as targets, but a 3x5 card at 7 yards - in terms of difficulty - is fairly low when taken in the context of serious IPSC/USPSA training. Really there's plenty of room for error. Put a partial target at 20 yds, with a 6" wide A-zone (or smaller in the case of the amoeba target), even an 8" wide mini popper that far away, it becomes much more difficult. I think I read a blog post from Ben Stoeger about how he was able to group shots 3" together at that distance running ~.25 or so splits in a practice session. Just insane. This is why I have no reservations with calling Bob the greatest ironsight practical pistol shooter in the world at the moment, because no one else (in their right mind) trains like this.

orionz06
05-02-2012, 09:46 PM
3.0 CoC grips?

So I need dry fire and grip work...

ToddG
05-02-2012, 11:06 PM
I don't mean to put down the usage of them as targets, but a 3x5 card at 7 yards - in terms of difficulty - is fairly low when taken in the context of serious IPSC/USPSA training. Really there's plenty of room for error.

Amazing how many GMs have tried and failed to earn a coin, then... And how many people who aren't close to GM status have earned one... In fact, even among the GMs who've won coins, not a single one of them earned their coin on their first try.

Talking about target size in a vacuum is meaningless. I'm sure every GM on the planet can hit a 3x5 at 7yd. So can a lot of C-class shooters. So can my wife, who'd be hard pressed to make Marksman in IDPA on her best day. It's the ability to do so consistently on demand at speed that gets tricky.

Huge kudos to Bob for a 3.34, to be sure!

(edited to add: while I obviously wasn't there, at least in terms of equipment there's nothing in the video suggesting that anything is illegal; the SMF vest is fine, the pistol appears to be drawn from at or behind the centerline a la IDPA, as does the mag)

GOP
05-03-2012, 12:05 AM
Todd,

just curious, but does Bob Vogel now hold the FAST record, or does he have to do something else for it to be official?

DonovanM
05-03-2012, 12:12 AM
Todd,

just curious, but does Bob Vogel now hold the FAST record, or does he have to do something else for it to be official?

"Only scores earned during a pistol-training.com class or similar ptc-recognized event are eligible for record status or winning a F.A.S.T. Challenge Coin."

Which is interesting because it looks like Sevigny was all alone at the range for his record attempt (could be wrong! :)).

GOP
05-03-2012, 12:18 AM
"Only scores earned during a pistol-training.com class or similar ptc-recognized event are eligible for record status or winning a F.A.S.T. Challenge Coin."

Which is interesting because it looks like Sevigny was all alone at the range for his record attempt (could be wrong! :)).

Haha, I saw that but obviously also saw Sevigny get the record by recording it himself. I'm curious as to how the process works, as I doubt that either Dave S. or Bob V. need to prove their abilities to anyone, although the rules state that the record must be done in a ptc class. I think it's awesome either way, sick run!

DonovanM
05-03-2012, 12:41 AM
Amazing how many GMs have tried and failed to earn a coin, then... And how many people who aren't close to GM status have earned one... In fact, even among the GMs who've won coins, not a single one of them earned their coin on their first try.

Talking about target size in a vacuum is meaningless. I'm sure every GM on the planet can hit a 3x5 at 7yd. So can a lot of C-class shooters. So can my wife, who'd be hard pressed to make Marksman in IDPA on her best day. It's the ability to do so consistently on demand at speed that gets tricky.

I'm not saying it's not a hard target. It's a tight shot to hit at speed by any standard, quite fiendish really as it definitely prods you to go much faster than you're capable of consistently.

I'm not sure that we can't talk about at-speed shooting challenges in a vacuum though. I think to a guy that can shoot a plate rack at 25 yards in under 3.6 seconds and a Bill Drill under 1.6, a sub 5 second FAST drill isn't any special feat. Sub 4 seconds, that's getting pretty tough, sure. According to Ben Stoeger (http://benstoeger.myonlineplace.org/joomla/index.php?view=article&catid=38%3Adrills&id=152%3Afast-drill&option=com_content&Itemid=59) at least, 4 seconds is a really bad run for him.

I don't really think the classification of GM means anything when taken by itself though, certainly not when talking about a test like the FAST. That said I obviously have no idea who you've ran on the test and who has still failed to get coins, but I would argue that your average GM is only any good with race equipment at wide open targets inside 10 yards or so. Not running from concealment with service pistols at 3x5 cards.

Anyway, I'm really losing steam with this argument, no matter how you cut it it's still a really fun test, and a hard one for anyone to do well at. I shot it with my SIG from AIWB a couple months ago for the first time. My first run was a clean 7 or 8 or something because my slide didn't lock back. Second run was a 4.23 IIRC, -1 to the head just low. So obviously I wouldn't have gotten a coin on my first attempt either, but I also suck and aren't even a GM anyway :o

ToddG
05-03-2012, 12:47 AM
As the F.A.S.T., the record, and the coins became better known (in huge part thanks to Dave Sevigny) a number of administrative controls were established to guarantee its continued legitimacy. Rather than be put in a position of saying I trust shooter-XYZ but don't trust the next guy who comes along and posts a video saying he did even better, the early coin holders agreed to establish the rule that "official" runs had to be done in person under various guidelines.

I don't doubt for a second that Bob's run was 100% legit. If we're ever on the same range at the same time, I'd be happy to run him through the F.A.S.T. and award him a coin. After all, I'd get more benefit out of Vogel winning my coin than he would, just like when Dave earned his.

chuck s
05-03-2012, 09:32 AM
I would argue that the average GM is good with most any pistol, using standard equipment, at any distance, on really tight targets, using concealment

Failure2Stop
05-03-2012, 09:34 AM
Watching phenominal shooters do their thing always motivates me to work harder, be more critical, and deeply analyze my every motion.

Witnessing a consistent sub-5 second FAST run is impressive, seeing those like Dave S and Bob V shoot like that is almost a religious experience.
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

Ga Shooter
05-03-2012, 09:41 AM
Watching phenominal shooters do their thing always motivates me to work harder, be more critical, and deeply analyze my every motion.

Witnessing a consistent sub-5 second FAST run is impressive, seeing those like Dave S and Bob V shoot like that is almost a religious experience.
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

I agree. I am striving to make a sub 5 sec run and get a coin but I am a looooooooooong way off. As to the vid I watched it several times and it looksto me as if he looks down at his mag holder to get a mag and still does it at light speed.:cool:

LittleLebowski
05-03-2012, 09:57 AM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

Beautiful.

ToddG
05-03-2012, 10:05 AM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

Awesome. I'm shooting 50 FASTs tomorrow.

jetfire
05-03-2012, 12:23 PM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

If we all just get together and shoot the FAST, Afghanistan would finally know real peace!

Ga Shooter
05-03-2012, 01:45 PM
it looksto me as if he looks down at his mag holder to get a mag and still does it at light speed.:cool:

I was able to pause it right at the reload and he is looking at the magwell.

Serpico1985
05-03-2012, 03:13 PM
Every time someone shoot's a sub 5 second F.A.S.T. a hippy's hacky sack goes down the gutter. Also achievable by eating a big juicy steak therefore I currently combat hippy's with knife and fork. But one day, one day.....

theblacknight
05-03-2012, 04:41 PM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.




TF Helmand/Leatherneck likes this;)

theblacknight
05-03-2012, 04:55 PM
Why wouldn't it? It hides the gun & holster, right? People wear them. I don't but some do. I do frequently wear open button down shirts as concealment. It's no different really.

EDIT: I just re-read my post. It wasn't intended to sound argumentative. Really.

These vests are a lil faster.Other wise people wouldnt wear them as most dudes already have button ups in their closet before discovering this IDPA thing. Why would everyone spend 40-80$ on extremly fashionable Steve Erwin gear if it wasnt?

JHC
05-03-2012, 05:32 PM
These vests are a lil faster.Other wise people wouldnt wear them as most dudes already have button ups in their closet before discovering this IDPA thing. Why would everyone spend 40-80$ on extremly fashionable Steve Erwin gear if it wasnt?

I used to think that a good old denim jacket was the fastest garment. The stiffness of it made the sweep more sure. It got out of the way and wouldn't wrap up on itself.

VolGrad
05-03-2012, 06:50 PM
These vests are a lil faster.Other wise people wouldnt wear them as most dudes already have button ups in their closet before discovering this IDPA thing. Why would everyone spend 40-80$ on extremly fashionable Steve Erwin gear if it wasnt?

No offense but I don't buy that.

I have the tactical fishing vest from Columbia .... which I got on sale for like $40 shipped. I purchased it for the pockets and the fact I could throw it over a t-shirt on stages that required concealment. It's light weight, stain proof, and I don't care if it gets dirty throwing it in the dirt when I am not wearing it. I also frequently wear a regular old open front button down s/s shirt for IDPA. I notice no difference in the speed.

GOP
05-03-2012, 06:53 PM
I'm certainly not a great shooter, but I have noticed that the fastest form of concealment for me seems to be AIWB under a t-shirt. I hit a 4.14 FAST clean last week like that. The vest/strong side set up seems a good deal slower to me, at least .2 seconds. Maybe my draw sucks with the vest though?

theblacknight
05-03-2012, 07:27 PM
No offense but I don't buy that.

I have the tactical fishing vest from Columbia .... which I got on sale for like $40 shipped. I purchased it for the pockets and the fact I could throw it over a t-shirt on stages that required concealment. It's light weight, stain proof, and I don't care if it gets dirty throwing it in the dirt when I am not wearing it. I also frequently wear a regular old open front button down s/s shirt for IDPA. I notice no difference in the speed.


YOU see no difference.

dookie1481
05-03-2012, 09:51 PM
Every time someone shoot's a sub 5 second F.A.S.T. a hippy's hacky sack goes down the gutter. Also achievable by eating a big juicy steak therefore I currently combat hippy's with knife and fork. But one day, one day.....

:D

I listen to the Patton Oswalt channel on Pandora for half the day.

jlw
05-03-2012, 10:22 PM
These vests are a lil faster.Other wise people wouldnt wear them as most dudes already have button ups in their closet before discovering this IDPA thing. Why would everyone spend 40-80$ on extremly fashionable Steve Erwin gear if it wasnt?


No offense but I don't buy that.

I have the tactical fishing vest from Columbia .... which I got on sale for like $40 shipped. I purchased it for the pockets and the fact I could throw it over a t-shirt on stages that required concealment. It's light weight, stain proof, and I don't care if it gets dirty throwing it in the dirt when I am not wearing it. I also frequently wear a regular old open front button down s/s shirt for IDPA. I notice no difference in the speed.


YOU see no difference.


I have the exact same vest as VolGrad (except in man size for me), and I have a couple of the EOTac tactical fishing vest. I bought all of these after beginning in IDPA. I can't tell a difference in the speed, but I prefer the fit and look of the Columbia and wear it more often during cool weather. Mostly, I compete wearing duty gear though.

theblacknight
05-03-2012, 11:31 PM
So your saying your cheaper vest is no slower then the more expensive ones. Cool. give us a link I guess. Some kind of vest with fabric of a certain weight seems to be faster for the majority of shooters.

DonovanM
05-04-2012, 01:02 AM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

Count me down for two today :D

Surf
05-04-2012, 01:06 AM
Darn 3.34 is hard to imagine. It is exactly 1 second faster than I have ever shot my fastest clean run. I am definitely one of those types that has minor (OK maybe major) OCD about shaving tenths or hundreds but 1 full second is almost crazy to think about. As for vests, GM's etc, etc, I really have no clue as I am not a competition shooter. I have also purposely avoided running many drills that I used to run with some regularity in the past and the FAST drill is one of them. I have been avoiding various drills so that I would not be "practiced" at the drill when I come back and revisit drills to gauge how my own personal skills have progressed. Bob V's video and the fact that some m****r f*****s will get blown the hell up for sub 5's means its time to pull this drill back out and run it....A LOT! ;)

TCinVA
05-04-2012, 07:07 AM
My "comfortable" time is in the sub 7 second range. If I'm really on my game, I can do sub 6 seconds. It took quite a bit of time, money, and effort to get to that point. I'm looking at the vast chasm that exists between the sub 6 second range and the sub 4 second range and I'm thinking that, dead insurgents aside, probably the wisest course of action for me is to just not pick a gunfight with Bob Vogel or Dave Sevigny.

jlw
05-04-2012, 07:48 AM
So your saying your cheaper vest is no slower then the more expensive ones. Cool. give us a link I guess. Some kind of vest with fabric of a certain weight seems to be faster for the majority of shooters.


The Columbia vests that VolGrad and I have came from LA Police Gear in one of their clearance sales. It is part of the Columbia Titanium product line. I think we paid $40 or so for them.

The EOTac vests that I have came from Sportsman Guide on clearance. I paid $25 or so for each of them.


The Columbia vest does not scream "GUN" like the EOTac and similar vests do. While I didn't buy any of the above until I started shooting IDPA, I actually wear the Columbia vest away from the range. I only wear the EOTacs for IDPA.

fuse
05-04-2012, 09:01 AM
Also. Why was the target so low?

Or is he 9 feet tall and didn't want to shoot over the berm

JConn
05-04-2012, 09:23 AM
Also. Why was the target so low?

Or is he 9 feet tall and didn't want to shoot over the berm

For him, I don't think the height of the target matters. It's probably just what he had set up.

LOKNLOD
05-04-2012, 09:34 AM
probably the wisest course of action for me is to just not pick a gunfight with Bob Vogel or Dave Sevigny.

I don't think I could pick a gunfight with them if I wanted; I would probably be picking a shooting. Based on their speed I'd be suffering from rapid CNS deactivation somewhere around the point I started pressing outward.

JHC
05-04-2012, 09:51 AM
Also. Why was the target so low?

Or is he 9 feet tall and didn't want to shoot over the berm

I shoot with the targets even with my face (3x5) and chest (8") but I've wondered if shooting at a pronounced down angle would lend more leverage to recoil control. I tried it once or twice and didn't notice a difference but I might to a 10 and 10 comparo or something one of these days.

fuse
05-04-2012, 01:03 PM
I shoot with the targets even with my face (3x5) and chest (8") but I've wondered if shooting at a pronounced down angle would lend more leverage to recoil control. I tried it once or twice and didn't notice a difference but I might to a 10 and 10 comparo or something one of these days.

Only reason I mentioned it is that at TLG's classes the targets are generally placed with the index card at the shooters eye level, give or take a couple inches.

I don't think it would make a difference with a champion like Vogel, or even someone like me.

ToddG
05-04-2012, 01:13 PM
For the record, I don't care. Because of the reload in between the two engagements it doesn't even matter to me how close the card and circle are.

I sincerely doubt the target height was determined by anything more than the stand, sticks, and random chance.

ToddG
05-04-2012, 10:55 PM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

I did 31 today. Now I just have to update my resume to reflect my new military experience...

GOP
05-04-2012, 11:35 PM
*Every time a sub-5 FAST is done, an IED prematurely dets on an insurgent.

I got 11 today.

Al T.
05-05-2012, 09:06 AM
reflect my new military experience

That's all well and good, but did you watch any youtube videos from Canada?

:D

ToddG
05-05-2012, 10:26 AM
That's all well and good, but did you watch any youtube videos from Canada?

:D

Que?

Al T.
05-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Man, I hate it when a clever joke isn't so clever. :o

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3223-1911s-are-like-strippers-and-Glocks-are-like-fat-girls&p=55720&viewfull=1#post55720

Posts #61 & 62.

:D

ToddG
05-05-2012, 11:07 AM
Posts #61 & 62.

Oh. Ha. Ha. Ha. :cool:

KeeFus
05-18-2013, 08:02 PM
So, here we are a year later and TLG posts on pistol training (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8094).com that Vogel got coin #11. Vogel posted on FB that he got the coin, but no time. I'm thinking he's around 3.00 flat. Anybody?

Here's his 2.98 run. (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2jeqjYuNcJM) from May 17, 2012.

ToddG
05-18-2013, 08:38 PM
Link to the FB page? Robert was so nonchalant about the whole thing I honestly didn't expect him to do more than toss the coin in a drawer and forget about it. I tried to explain to him that he'd become famous now that he'd really accomplished something meaningful in the shooting world but you know how these guys are with their national and world championships, thinking that is important. :cool:

The designated cameraman apparently forgot to hit the complicated "RECORD" button on the video camera so I don't have vid yet. But luckily Fred was also filming it on his Contour and once he's had a chance to de-contour it and get me a copy I'll post it.

Robert's first run was sub-5 but with a head miss. He didn't have a concealment garment and literally just borrow the first vest someone handed him. It interfered with his draw and dragged on the gun as it came up, throwing his first shot.

Then he borrowed a different vest and even though he wasn't wearing his normal IDPA holster and mag pouches he still managed a 4.7-something clean followed by a 4.3-something clean.

Robert was the first person ever to get a coin on the new Q-PT target 2.0 but much more importantly he's the first person ever to earn a coin on his first official attempt.

JV_
05-18-2013, 08:40 PM
Link to the FB page?

https://www.facebook.com/robert.g.vogel/posts/495569240498277

ToddG
05-18-2013, 08:44 PM
https://www.facebook.com/robert.g.vogel/posts/495569240498277

Yet another thing I'll miss out on because I don't have a Facespace account. But thanks for the link, JV!

98z28
05-18-2013, 09:01 PM
Yet another thing I'll miss out on because I don't have a Facespace account. But thanks for the link, JV!

Vogel from that link:

"Not fast. Just needed to do 2 out of 3 under 5 sec clean so I didn't need to push it at all. Aimed hard at the card, think I was only a 4.3 something on the better one and slower on another where the slide didn't lock back. First one the new vest got in the way and was a disaster. It was all kind of a last minute thing at the end of the day."

Wow.

jlw
05-18-2013, 09:03 PM
Yet another thing I'll miss out on because I don't have a Facespace account. But thanks for the link, JV!


You missed one guy responding to the post calling you an unpleasant name. :cool:

You should challenge him.

ToddG
05-18-2013, 09:05 PM
It was definitely last minute. Class was picking up the range and I pulled him aside to ask if he had any interest in trying for a coin. Then as I ran to the car to grab the targets I realized he might not have a vest or anything. By the time I got back, he'd realized the same thing. A student offered to loan him a vest but as I said it definitely messed up Robert's draw. We were going to pack it in when another student offered a 5.11 vest and Robert shot it again with both of those being well under five and clean.

KeeFus
05-18-2013, 09:10 PM
You missed one guy responding to the post calling you an unpleasant name. :cool:

You should challenge him.

(edited by ToddG ... I appreciate the info and sentiment but let's not turn this thread into a "someone doesn't like Todd" discussion ... that's a lot more "dog bites man" than someone getting a FAST coin :cool:)

Lon
05-18-2013, 11:21 PM
(edited by ToddG ... I appreciate the info and sentiment but let's not turn this thread into a "someone doesn't like Todd" discussion ... that's a lot more "dog bites man" than someone getting a FAST coin :cool:)

Well played, sir.

Cool Breeze
05-24-2013, 12:58 PM
what gun was he using? And does he normally carry that concealed or was that his competition gun? Just curious.

ToddG
05-24-2013, 02:01 PM
G34, his Production gun.

Cool Breeze
05-24-2013, 08:19 PM
G34, his Production gun.

Very cool. Thanks.

jlw
05-24-2013, 09:09 PM
Very cool. Thanks.


With a GlockTriggers.com Vogel Challenger kit installed in it.

(Disclosure: I am affiliated with GlockTriggers.com.)

ToddG
05-25-2013, 12:39 PM
For those who may not have seen it yet, scores and video are online at PTC (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8101).