PDA

View Full Version : USPSA 2019 CO Nationals equipment survey



GJM
01-17-2020, 10:02 PM
Tip to YVK to alerting me the survey was out. A few highlights. On optics DP Pro at 33 percent, then Romeo 1, then the SRO at 15 percent. The RMR was on 3 percent of competitor pistols. On pistols, 31 percent X5/320 Legion, 16 percent Shadow 2, 14 percent Glock 34.

47375

YVK
01-18-2020, 12:17 AM
Comparative data from last year:

2019

Brand prevalence: SIG 35%, CZ 22%, Glock 18% (? can't see the number well).

Model prevalence: 320X5 21%, Shadow 2 15%, G34 14%.

Optic prevalence: DPP 33%, Romeo 1 24%, SRO 15%.

2018

Brand prevalence: SIG 30%, CZ 28%, Glock 16%.

Model prevalence: 320X5 16%, Shadow 2 12%, G34 9%.

Optic prevalence: DPP 33%, Romeo 1 28%, Venom 10%.


Random thoughts:

- Seems like both SIG and Glock took some bites out of CZs share this year. Absence of factory optic ready CZ option in the US due to its nonconformity with USPSA CO equipment rules will continue being a problem for CZ.

- I expect further change in optic choices next year. R3Max and SRO were too new to make it to Nationals in numbers.

- RMR remains to be seen as non-competitive against large screen rivals.

LOKNLOD
01-18-2020, 12:30 AM
- Seems like both SIG and Glock took some bites out of CZs share this year. Absence of factory optic ready CZ option in the US due to its nonconformity with USPSA CO equipment rules will continue being a problem for CZ.

CZ p-10 OR models are not carry optics legal?

YVK
01-18-2020, 12:41 AM
They are, they are.

What they are not is being that popular in this particular shooter's group, people who go to Nationals. Shadow 2 is the most popular CZ, it actually increased its share despite overall CZ's decline. And despite being the hardest CZ to set up for CO. The second most popular is original Shadow. The P10s haven't made it in as much, and the Nat's data is concordant with my own observation. Other than GJM in one match, I've not seen a single person shoot one. While I know what Shadow 2 may offer over P320 or G34 in this category, despite being a pain in the ass and the wallet to set up, I don't see anything that P10 does.

I should've phrased that sentence more carefully, I should've said Shadow, not all CZs.

Bucky
01-18-2020, 05:15 AM
Sig does make it really easy to get in the game, for sure. Max winning CO as much as he does certainly helps sales as well.

I just got my Shadow 2 slide back from Cajun. Now I have 2 CO guns, both direct milled. My G34 has the Delta Point, my S2 an SRO.

rob_s
01-18-2020, 07:11 AM
I can't really see myself buying one, but I'm curious why the Sig is so popular?

rob_s
01-18-2020, 07:15 AM
Do they also publish what the top o the pops was using? Maybe top 10 or 20 shooters? Same list of guns, gear, and ammo, but broken out by the top 20 shooters?

GJM
01-18-2020, 07:25 AM
Not top 20, but:

1-Max 320 X5 and Sig Romeo 3 Max

2-Nils Canik with DP Pro

3- KC with a Zev

4- Ariss with a G34 and DP Pro

6- Kim with a Walther PPQ SF

GJM
01-18-2020, 07:27 AM
Actually, Ariss was fifth and I don’t know the number 4 person.

GJM
01-18-2020, 07:53 AM
Pretty much, the top guys are using what they are paid to shoot. Unlike Open, there are a variety of pistols being used at the top and throughout CO.

YVK
01-18-2020, 09:40 AM
I just got my Shadow 2 slide back from Cajun. Now I have 2 CO guns, both direct milled. My G34 has the Delta Point, my S2 an SRO.

Out of curiosity: is SRO completely centered on Shadow 2 slide?

Reason for asking: CGW milled one of my slides for a direct SRO attachment. The optic is one mm off center. Doesn't make any difference. More so, I am not complaining: they milled the SRO pocket over the existing DPP pocket, allowing me to start divesting from DPPs, so I am grateful. I am just curious if off center is how they do it in general, or it is because they had to work with an already milled slide.




Actually, Ariss was fifth and I don’t know the number 4 person.

Luke Cao, now infamously rated a B class at the time of taking the fourth place at the Nationals. Walther with SRO.





I can't really see myself buying one, but I'm curious why the Sig is so popular?


One of the first ones with a "not a Glock grip angle" capitalizing on S&W inability to capture anything other than Jerry Miculek. I really think this is the main reason.
Others: reliable, accurate and affordable out of box product that shoots very well (save for the trigger and grip surface treatment, I personally have no criticism), very active marketing campaign, initial sponsorship of 25 people SIG team, continuing sponsorship of top performing shooters like Max, Mason Lane, Daniel Horner, Lena Miculek etc, Max killing it in every match (I think he may have been undefeated for 3 years), and obvious willingness to innovate to improve performance (pre-tensioned barrels, tungsten infused poly grips as the examples). As I stated many times, I don't like the company but they totally deserve their success.

Bucky
01-18-2020, 10:22 AM
Out of curiosity: is SRO completely centered on Shadow 2 slide?

Reason for asking: CGW milled one of my slides for a direct SRO attachment. The optic is one mm off center. Doesn't make any difference. More so, I am not complaining: they milled the SRO pocket over the existing DPP pocket, allowing me to start divesting from DPPs, so I am grateful. I am just curious if off center is how they do it in general, or it is because they had to work with an already milled slide.


Perfectly centered, as best I can tell.

47386

YVK
01-18-2020, 10:27 AM
Perfectly centered, as best I can tell.



I was betting that was the case. As I said, mine already had metal removed so they did the best they could.


Best way to tell is to see if optic screws holes are completely symmetric. That's actually how I noticed mine was a bit off.

Clay1
01-18-2020, 11:35 AM
Tip to YVK to alerting me the survey was out. A few highlights. On optics DP Pro at 33 percent, then Romeo 1, then the SRO at 15 percent. The RMR was on 3 percent of competitor pistols. On pistols, 31 percent X5/320 Legion, 16 percent Shadow 2, 14 percent Glock 34.

47375

Looks like that is available online, have a link to the article?

Recently renewed my USPSA membership, but didn't find it on USPSA Down Range. I'm either doing the search poorly or I'm looking in the wrong spot.

YVK
01-18-2020, 11:39 AM
If you're a full member, you go to the site, look for media and news or something like that, find the Frontsight or Down Range, whatever the name is, and download it.

I am a cheap dude with associate membership and no media access. I live vicariously through @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410).

Eyesquared
01-18-2020, 11:49 AM
It would have been good of them to break out the P320 X5 and P320 X5 Legion separately. Anecdotally I have seen 0 standard P320 X5 shooters in months, but at every USPSA match I've been to, I've squadded with at least 1 P320 X5 Legion shooter and a number of people who own them but were shooting other guns.

YVK
01-18-2020, 12:09 PM
We still have a good number of X5 shooters around here. #18 on the Nats placement list is a local dude, a regular X5 user. Some folks continue because they are happy with results, some jumped on X5 wagon because the prices went down when Legions came out, others just don't care to spend mor money for the switch.

Clay1
01-18-2020, 01:59 PM
If you're a full member, you go to the site, look for media and news or something like that, find the Frontsight or Down Range, whatever the name is, and download it.

I am a cheap dude with associate membership and no media access. I live vicariously through @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410).

Thanks, I was looking at the USPSA Down Range Archives.

Your pointers took me here:

USPSA home page
Media and Info
Far left hand side: Frontsight Online.

Thanks again.

MVS
01-18-2020, 03:41 PM
It is unbelievable to me how popular the X5 Legion has become. Around here people are snapping them up to compete with. In a lot of cases these are crappy shooters who think they are going to buy skill. I hate to admit it, but in some cases the gun is so good it seems to be working. I tried one out. I like it but pulling the trigger right after trying a Staccato P duo, I was like meh.

GJM
01-18-2020, 05:14 PM
It would have been good of them to break out the P320 X5 and P320 X5 Legion separately. Anecdotally I have seen 0 standard P320 X5 shooters in months, but at every USPSA match I've been to, I've squadded with at least 1 P320 X5 Legion shooter and a number of people who own them but were shooting other guns.

They did break it down, but you probably couldn’t see the detail. The X5 was 21 percent and the 320 Legion was ten percent. When the 2020 survey comes out, I suspect that the Legion will be very dominant, since it had only been out a few months by Nationals. I believe I commented on the increasing popularity in AZ, a week or two back, as every match there seem to be more more of them. I think they are displacing Glock and CZ pistols, and 2011 shooters especially seem to like them as the grip and overall weight are similar. (Before I forget, I felt a GlockStore drop in 320 trigger today, and it was easily the best striker trigger I have ever felt.) I also predict the SRO will close the gap with the DP Pro in 2020, or even overtake it. To find the CO Nationals survey, go to the USPSA member area and look at the January Front Sight magazine, as it is in that issue.

47422

GJM
01-18-2020, 05:25 PM
Not sure if this link will work, but hopefully this brings up the survey for you:

https://uspsa.org/magazine/view//2020-01#page=49

Eyesquared
01-18-2020, 05:50 PM
Thanks GJM. I did skim through the results earlier but I didn't squint hard enough to see the Legion there. My anecdotal experience with what I've seen at matches more or less matches yours. I should note that I was referring to matches that all took place since Nationals.

ranger
01-18-2020, 09:47 PM
I was surprised to see the M&Ps noted. Will be interesting to see if more interest with the 2.0 "CORES" hitting market

Xhado
01-19-2020, 10:25 AM
Not top 20, but:

1-Max 320 X5 and Sig Romeo 3 Max

2-Nils Canik with DP Pro

3- KC with a Zev

4- Ariss with a G34 and DP Pro

6- Kim with a Walther PPQ SF

This was the info I was able to collect back in September.

1) Max 320 X5 Romeo 3 Max
2) KC Zev (glock) Burris
3) Nils Canik DPP
4) Cao Q5 Match SF SRO 5.0
5) Ariss Glock Store (Glock) SRO 2.5
6) Kim Q5 Match SF SRO 5.0
7) BJ Wilson Combat (glock)DPP 7.5

Glenn E. Meyer
01-19-2020, 10:37 AM
Curious, do they survey the carry gun of the competitors as compared to their competition gun? Anecdotely, a friend of mine who shoots a neat CZ, carries a Glock.

MVS
01-19-2020, 12:51 PM
Curious, do they survey the carry gun of the competitors as compared to their competition gun? Anecdotely, a friend of mine who shoots a neat CZ, carries a Glock.

In a lot of areas that would be a quick survey.

rob_s
01-19-2020, 01:35 PM
Curious, do they survey the carry gun of the competitors as compared to their competition gun? Anecdotely, a friend of mine who shoots a neat CZ, carries a Glock.

Eventually you realize that this doesn’t matter, and nobody really cares.

Most organizations aren’t in the business of making non-participants or non-competitive participants, feel better about themselves at the expense of the ones putting in the time, showing up, and winning.

CleverNickname
01-19-2020, 03:46 PM
In a lot of areas that would be a quick survey.
Back when I used to run IDPA matches, I really wanted to run a match with a surprise requirement where everyone would have been stopped at the range entrance, queried about their CCW gun they were carrying at the moment, and then required to shoot that gun for the match, in the holster that they were carrying the gun in. It wouldn't have worked for a lot of reasons, not the least of which would have been that a lot of competitors would have been reduced to pointing their fingers and yelling "bang!"

GJM
01-19-2020, 06:07 PM
Back when I used to run IDPA matches, I really wanted to run a match with a surprise requirement where everyone would have been stopped at the range entrance, queried about their CCW gun they were carrying at the moment, and then required to shoot that gun for the match, in the holster that they were carrying the gun in. It wouldn't have worked for a lot of reasons, not the least of which would have been that a lot of competitors would have been reduced to pointing their fingers and yelling "bang!"

That is a timmie’s wet dream, but IDPA and USPSA which both use a timer and scoring are still a game, and a significant number of participants treat it like a game.

Clay1
01-19-2020, 06:20 PM
That is a timmie’s wet dream, but IDPA and USPSA which both use a timer and scoring are still a game, and a significant number of participants treat it like a game.

I've always run a G34 in production. I have a gun that I am finishing up to run in CO, but Tuesday night I took my carry gun to the league night. It happens to have a RM06, comp and a flashlight (Roland ish) on it so I ran in Open, from concealment, AIWB in a Tenicor Malus Sol. What a blast.

Still a game, but that is my carry gun.

MVS
01-19-2020, 06:20 PM
That is a timmie’s wet dream, but IDPA and USPSA which both use a timer and scoring are still a game, and a significant number of participants treat it like a game.

We are heading down a rabbit trail here, but that used to bother me. It doesn't any more. Who am I to say someone who participates in the sport has to take the self defense aspect seriously. They are just as free to enjoy their firearms in their way as I am.

GJM
01-19-2020, 06:31 PM
We are heading down a rabbit trail here, but that used to bother me. It doesn't any more. Who am I to say someone who participates in the sport has to take the self defense aspect seriously. They are just as free to enjoy their firearms in their way as I am.

I think of it this way. There are people who can shoot well, but don’t carry a gun or an appropriate gun. There are people who can’t shoot well, but who carry appropriate guns. There are people who can shoot well and carry appropriate guns. I strive to be in the third group, but frankly I don’t lose even a bit of sleep worrying about how prepared the people in the first two groups are defensively, just as I don’t worry about how prepared people are to deal with a bear attack. I still remember telling a friend’s wife how her choice of the Judge and .410 buck was not an appropriate grizzly gun and seeing how butthurt she got. Ain’t worth it.

Glenn E. Meyer
01-19-2020, 09:05 PM
Geez, I was just mildly curious as I've seen IDPA surveys like that. Unleashing the game, tactics, training blab fest wasn't my goal.

YVK
01-19-2020, 10:33 PM
USPSA won't do it, Glenn. Nothing to do with games, tactics etc. First, they have strongly maintained a position of a sport, not an adjunct to timmy training. Second, completion of this survey is required to fully register for Nationals. To me it is already a questionable approach but that's OK. However, it they asked any question that doesn't pertain to Nats itself, they could get into hot legal waters.

rob_s
01-20-2020, 05:08 AM
Geez, I was just mildly curious as I've seen IDPA surveys like that. Unleashing the game, tactics, training blab fest wasn't my goal.

So what was your goal? Why do you care? What’s the point of the post?

Every single time this topic comes up, it’s just self-serving nonsense. Some guy that can’t win wants to feel better about it so he says it’s because he shoots his carry gun, or employs real world tactics, or whatever. I know, I was that guy. It’s horseshit and it doesn’t matter. Except to the guy that feels bad he can’t compete.

Paul D
01-20-2020, 08:10 AM
Do you guys think Max Michel and all the other top shooters would have gotten their respective places no matter what they shoot? Basically it's still the Indian not the arrow, right?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

GJM
01-20-2020, 08:42 AM
Do you guys think Max Michel and all the other top shooters would have gotten their respective places no matter what they shoot? Basically it's still the Indian not the arrow, right?

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

It is the Indian not the arrow, but because competition is designed to magnify tiny differences in performance, Indians spend a lot of time fussing with their arrows. In CO, there is such a diversity in competitive pistols, whatever you have is probably being used successfully. Fussing is not just with pistols, but also with optics, holsters, ammo and mag extensions.

tlong17
01-20-2020, 10:17 AM
With so many P320 users I can’t believe at least one of them hasn’t had their piece explode in the holster or fire on its own accord. Do you think any of them even considered the CEO of the company they bought their pistol from? (For those not sponsored of course)

Glenn E. Meyer
01-20-2020, 10:23 AM
So what was your goal? Why do you care? What’s the point of the post?

Every single time this topic comes up, it’s just self-serving nonsense. Some guy that can’t win wants to feel better about it so he says it’s because he shoots his carry gun, or employs real world tactics, or whatever. I know, I was that guy. It’s horseshit and it doesn’t matter. Except to the guy that feels bad he can’t compete.

Who put a 33 round Glock mag up your butt? I was just curious as to what folks who shoot well, consider as carry guns. Nothing to do with who sucks at competition. Get it?

It's like asking a race car driver, like my brother in law used to be, what's his everyday car. NO speeches about how he wants to drive his Camry at Indianapolis.

After a match in the TX ones I used to shoot, folks will take off their competition rig and put on a carry gun. We would then go for Tex-Mex and might even discuss our favorite carry gun without ranting about why we can't win because of real world tactics.

Rob - you must hang out with a bunch of high strung (look in DSM-5).

JHC
01-20-2020, 10:50 AM
Who put a 33 round Glock mag up your butt? I was just curious as to what folks who shoot well, consider as carry guns. Nothing to do with who sucks at competition. Get it?

It's like asking a race car driver, like my brother in law used to be, what's his everyday car. NO speeches about how he wants to drive his Camry at Indianapolis.

After a match in the TX ones I used to shoot, folks will take off their competition rig and put on a carry gun. We would then go for Tex-Mex and might even discuss our favorite carry gun without ranting about why we can't win because of real world tactics.

Rob - you must hang out with a bunch of high strung (look in DSM-5).

IIRC that sort of question used to be a favorite in gun magazines back when that's all there was. It was interesting to see so many that were known for their 1911 prowess that carried a J frame. ;)

YVK
01-20-2020, 11:02 AM
Do you guys think Max Michel and all the other top shooters would have gotten their respective places no matter what they shoot? Basically it's still the Indian not the arrow, right?



Yes, in a sense of brand choices for firearms. Placement results show that every major brand has an option that supports a top shelf performance.
That said, people who took places from 4 to 9 are within 1.5% of each other (I am going by memory). I can't exclude that some equipment differences, especially in optic, may have lead to specific placement but not to making or breaking the top 10.





Some guy that can’t win wants to feel better about it so he says it’s because he shoots his carry gun, or employs real world tactics, or whatever.


Such people don't show up at the Nationals. If USPSA asked this question before the Nats, or any level III match, no participant would care about egos, feel-goods about real world etc. People don't spend four digit sums and take off half-weeks to travel to attend activities where not one person gives a fuck about such things. USPSA is not asking this question simply because it is none of their business, not because they are concerned about offending somebody.

Glenn E. Meyer
01-20-2020, 11:03 AM
Well, I want you to know that I won my division in IDPA with a J frame! That was because at our local match, I was the only revolver shooter! I also in another match came in second after a national level champion who has come in the top ranks with Miculek! Oh, only two revolver shooters that day.

As I've said a few times, I shot the J's for practice on more than the square range. If I were to carry a belt based revolver - it would be my 6 shot SW 632 3 inch, hammered, comp'ed, fiber optic 327 mag. I'm going to start shooting USPSA here as it's the closest game in town.

I'm scared to ask about what's your carry gun as I don't want someone to go Hair of Fire, Is it Training or A Game, Why Didn't I Win!

I don't have to worry about winning, I'm too damn slow! I can be deadly in accuracy as I stroll through the stage. Just a cranky old man.

Alpha Sierra
01-20-2020, 11:53 AM
With so many P320 users..................….Do you think any of them even considered the CEO of the company they bought their pistol from? (For those not sponsored of course)
I doubt it.

I know I couldn't care less, if I chose to buy a SIG.

GJM
01-20-2020, 11:57 AM
Spirited discussion is great, but let’s make sure this sub forum is about exchange of information with a less edgy style than is common elsewhere.

Alpha Sierra
01-20-2020, 12:01 PM
Spirited discussion is great, but let’s make sure this sub forum is about exchange of information with a less edgy style than is common elsewhere.

Agreed, snarky remarks about guns firing when they hit the floor and who the CEO is are completely inappropriate here.

Glenn E. Meyer
01-20-2020, 12:15 PM
Please go back to discussing the equipment survey and forget my innocent question that so inflames the cognoscenti. Forgive me as I knew not what I did.

mistertwo
01-21-2020, 10:49 PM
I was betting that was the case. As I said, mine already had metal removed so they did the best they could.


Best way to tell is to see if optic screws holes are completely symmetric. That's actually how I noticed mine was a bit off.

I had the exact same thing done to my Shadow 2 by CGW and noticed the same offset.

BigT
01-22-2020, 05:27 AM
FWIW In IPSC Production Optics where there are no weight limits we see it dominated by the Shadow 2

MVS
01-22-2020, 07:53 AM
Please go back to discussing the equipment survey and forget my innocent question that so inflames the cognoscenti. Forgive me as I knew not what I did.

Don't sweat it Glenn, I probably did more to sidetrack it than you did.