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View Full Version : If you can shoot a .45 well do you choose to carry one?



part-time shooter
03-14-2011, 07:30 PM
With many advantages in capacity going to 9mm's and todays ammunitions choices, if you can handle and shoot a 45 well do you carry one? is there any real advantage to doing so given todays choices in pistols and modern bullet design?


I'm curious to what the current thinking is on the topic.

Thanks.

Kyle Reese
03-14-2011, 07:39 PM
Some people are issued .45's, and have no latitude in terms of what they carry for duty use.

Given the choice, I'd carry a 9 every day and twice on Sunday unless mandated otherwise.

LittleLebowski
03-14-2011, 07:41 PM
I see no reason to unless I live in an oppressed state that has mag capacity limit laws.

David
03-14-2011, 07:46 PM
I carry a 21sf so 14 rounds of .45ACP isn't anything to feel "under-gunned" with. Other than capacity (in some cases) is there any advantage to carrying a 9mm over a .45 if you are proficient with the .45?

YVK
03-14-2011, 07:49 PM
Kind of secondary decision: I still shoot and carry a 1911 at times. Since 1911s in caliber other than 45 are not recommended for carry, I am stuck with that caliber for as long as I continue to use 1911s.

dookie1481
03-14-2011, 08:00 PM
I carry a 21sf so 14 rounds of .45ACP isn't anything to feel "under-gunned" with. Other than capacity (in some cases) is there any advantage to carrying a 9mm over a .45 if you are proficient with the .45?

Yeah, if you have midget hands like me a .45 with a decent capacity is pretty much out the window.

evanhill
03-14-2011, 08:12 PM
Half of the reason I carry is daily forays into the backcountry every morning. I trust Hornady XTPs in .45acp more than anything available in 9mm if the target in question is bigger than a human.

Plus... I'm a 1911 guy.

jslaker
03-14-2011, 11:04 PM
If somebody else is paying for my ammunition and they insist.


I trust Hornady XTPs in .45acp more than anything available in 9mm if the target in question is bigger than a human.

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that the terminal performance of .45 ACP in modern JHP loads is significantly better than similar loads of 9mm.

If I were concerned about animals larger than Homo Sapien where it might be a concern, I'd be looking toward something more along the lines of 10mm or .357 Magnum from a full-length barrel with energy levels in the 600-750ft-lb+ range as opposed to the 300-450ft-lb levels typical of 9x19/.40 S&W/.45 ACP.

BigT
03-15-2011, 12:38 AM
I'm going back to 45 from nine. I do think round for round 45 is a tiny bit better. It is also more forgiving of old tech ammo. Where I live 40 and 45 premium ammo is a lot more available than 9x19 premium ammo. In fact sometimes it has been years between batches of premium nine. So if I'm stuck with pmp or magtech hollowpoints or ball the bigger ones do make me feel better.

I have to reload for both so the difference in ammo price isn't huge.

I still recommend the nine for new shooters because I think the fact that it is easier to shoot is far more important for someone starting out.

Kyle Reese
03-15-2011, 03:18 AM
From your perspective, it makes alot of sense to go with a larger caliber, esp where modern JHP designs are concerned.



I'm going back to 45 from nine. I do think round for round 45 is a tiny bit better. It is also more forgiving of old tech ammo. Where I live 40 and 45 premium ammo is a lot more available than 9x19 premium ammo. In fact sometimes it has been years between batches of premium nine. So if I'm stuck with pmp or magtech hollowpoints or ball the bigger ones do make me feel better.

I have to reload for both so the difference in ammo price isn't huge.

I still recommend the nine for new shooters because I think the fact that it is easier to shoot is far more important for someone starting out.

Chuck Haggard
03-15-2011, 05:44 AM
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that the terminal performance of .45 ACP in modern JHP loads is significantly better than similar loads of 9mm.

If I were concerned about animals larger than Homo Sapien where it might be a concern, I'd be looking toward something more along the lines of 10mm or .357 Magnum from a full-length barrel with energy levels in the 600-750ft-lb+ range as opposed to the 300-450ft-lb levels typical of 9x19/.40 S&W/.45 ACP.

Many of the +P .45 loads mimic or surpass the 10mm. With the XTP bullet in question I think evenhill is correct. Those bullets as loaded by Hornady, especially the +P loads, typically waste effect on people by blowing all the way through with a lot of velocity retained, tests that I have seen indicate 18"-20" or more of penetration.
Our issued +P 124gr Gold Dots typically go 15" in gel, and also typically exit in almost all of the OISs that we have had.
On people I think the effect is wasted, but Doc Roberts notes the FBI testing that the .45 was in fact better at breaking large bones.

For me, around my AO, the 9mm will do anything I need it to do for duty and off-duty use. If I lived somewhere that had big bears I'd re-think things.

I feel a strong advantage of the 9mm is cost. I can shoot quite a bit more for the same price with 9mm.
As someone with arthritis I also appreciate that the service sized 9mm gives less wear-and-tear to the shooter.

While many people profess to shoot the .40 or .45 just as well as the 9mm, I note that this is most often with a two hand hold on a flat range, on a warm spring day with a bright blue sky.
One hand shooting, around a barricade/shield/car door/injured/from the ground/in the dark with a flashlight in the other hand/carrying a baby/dragging a wounded buddy, not so much.

DrDave
03-15-2011, 05:55 AM
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that the terminal performance of .45 ACP in modern JHP loads is significantly better than similar loads of 9mm.
Ditto. I've gone from a .45 to a 9mm. I'm not rabidly fanatical about either, my focus is on being a competent shot with whatever I carry

ToddG
03-15-2011, 07:46 AM
If you can shoot a .45 well...

I can shoot a .45 reasonably well.

I can shoot a 9mm better.

Case closed.

Pistol Shooter
03-15-2011, 08:18 AM
35 years ago, I was a hardcore Colt .45 1911 guy who read Col. Cooper's books and wouldn't consider any caliber less than .45 acp for self defense.

That was a long time ago and as I've aged, I find that I can get more hits on target faster and more accurately with a 9mm handgun.

JHP ammo has evolved enormously since those days too. (Anyone remember Super Vel?)

I'm quite comfortable carrying 124 gr. +P Gold Dots in my HK P2000 SK today. :)

vcdgrips
03-15-2011, 10:16 AM
TPD223

"While many people profess to shoot the .40 or .45 just as well as the 9mm, I note that this is most often with a two hand hold on a flat range, on a warm spring day with a bright blue sky.
One hand shooting, around a barricade/shield/car door/injured/from the ground/in the dark with a flashlight in the other hand/carrying a baby/dragging a wounded buddy, not so much. "

Stop dropping Logic Bombs based on years of training and experience!!!

jstephens202
03-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Carry guns are intensley personal. I carry a 1911 in .45 on duty and 99% of the time a 1911 in .45 off-duty as well. If I can't carry a 1911 for some reason, then I carry a G36 in .45. Yes, I do have other guns in .40S&W, but I just personally feel more confident with the .45 then any other caliber. Can't give you a scientific or logical reason, I just do.

evanhill
03-15-2011, 12:46 PM
If I were concerned about animals larger than Homo Sapien where it might be a concern, I'd be looking toward something more along the lines of 10mm or .357 Magnum from a full-length barrel with energy levels in the 600-750ft-lb+ range as opposed to the 300-450ft-lb levels typical of 9x19/.40 S&W/.45 ACP.


The 10mm is a nice in between compromise that is indeed an upgrade from the .45, particularly with some of doubletap's loads. The only real choice in that caliber unless you have a lot of money for a custom 1911 is the glock, and I'm just not interested. It is a great choice though. I won't argue against that.

If I really want to be effective on animals (grizzly country mostly), I leapfrog the 10mm and go with the .41 magnum. 250 grain hard cast doing 1325.

I shoot .45 just as accurately as the 9mm, but not as quickly. On the other hand, I shoot .45 way more quickly than I shoot .41. Plus my .41 is a 5 shot. There's no free lunch in this world. Rather than bounce around between platforms and calibers for "in town" versus "woods" use, I've chosen to focus training dollars and time on a single caliber and platform. It's not the optimal choice for either scenario, but does a decent job of sitting on the fence between the two. Plus, if you run into trouble in the woods, do you know ahead of time if that trouble is going to look like a manned grow operation or the need to poach an elk? Again, it doesn't hurt my feelings to be sitting on the fence.

David Armstrong
03-15-2011, 12:49 PM
With many advantages in capacity going to 9mm's and todays ammunitions choices, if you can handle and shoot a 45 well do you carry one?
Yes I can, and No I don't, other than rare special occassions.

is there any real advantage to doing so given todays choices in pistols and modern bullet design?
Not in my opinion.

Occam's Razor
03-15-2011, 01:28 PM
With the current ballistics choices in 9mm, speed of recovery for multiple shots, mag size capacity, and ease of carry, I'm afraid I can't see (for me) any logical reason to carry anything other than the 9. i do love my 1911's, but for the reasons stated above, I carry a 9.

Frank B
03-15-2011, 03:09 PM
IMHO, there is nothing wrong in my books to carry the same system/caliber on or off duty for more than one reason. This works for .45s as well as 9mil or .40.
I carry a .40 and I´m happy with my choice.


Carry guns are intensley personal. I carry a 1911 in .45 on duty and 99% of the time a 1911 in .45 off-duty as well. If I can't carry a 1911 for some reason, then I carry a G36 in .45. Yes, I do have other guns in .40S&W, but I just personally feel more confident with the .45 then any other caliber. Can't give you a scientific or logical reason, I just do.

seabiscuit
03-17-2011, 02:50 PM
I carry a 21sf so 14 rounds of .45ACP isn't anything to feel "under-gunned" with. Other than capacity (in some cases) is there any advantage to carrying a 9mm over a .45 if you are proficient with the .45?

Smaller size is what took me to the G26 over the G30.

David
03-17-2011, 03:19 PM
Smaller size is what took me to the G26 over the G30.

I switched from the M&P .45 to the Glock 21SF in favor of the grip on the Glock. I had to add a hogue slip-on grip on top of the large back-strap on the M&P to get the grip size I wanted.

seabiscuit
03-17-2011, 03:35 PM
I switched from the M&P .45 to the Glock 21SF in favor of the grip on the Glock. I had to add a hogue slip-on grip on top of the large back-strap on the M&P to get the grip size I wanted.

Grip size isn't my primary concern (I've got some big mits), but I wanted something thinner for better concealment. As a skinny dude, there's not a whole lot of room to hide a double-stack .45.

David
03-17-2011, 03:39 PM
Grip size isn't my primary concern (I've got some big mits), but I wanted something thinner for better concealment. As a skinny dude, there's not a whole lot of room to hide a double-stack .45.

I'm pretty thin as well, I'm not so thin I whistle when the wind blows but I have no gut hanging over my belt. I carry OWB :D

seabiscuit
03-17-2011, 04:50 PM
I'm pretty thin as well, I'm not so thin I whistle when the wind blows but I have no gut hanging over my belt. I carry OWB :D

Hmm. I'd have to make some major adjustments to my wardrobe to do that.

GJM
03-17-2011, 05:35 PM
When I carry a 1911 in Alaska, it is a Colt Delta 10mm, using Tripp magazines, and it has yet to malfunction with any ammo I have tried (Buffalo Bore and Corbon 200 grain penetrators, Corbon and Double Tap Barnes X bullets, old Black Talon, Hornady XTP's, Federal Hydra Shocks and Winchester Silvertips.) Interestingly, I have three Glock 20's, two SF models and one pre SF, none of which will run the 200 grain penetrator loads from Corbon or Buffalo Bore reliably, which kind of argues against the reason for a 10 mm Glock in Alaska. Interestingly, my wife carries a Glock 29, and it runs those 200 grain penetrator loads and the Barnes X bullets just fine.

When I do carry a 45 up here, it is an HK 45 with Ranger +P or the Corbon DPX +P ammo.

DocGKR
03-18-2011, 02:05 AM
I choose to carry a .45 ACP pistol when:

-- The pistol design being used works best in .45 ACP (ex. 1911)

-- Intermediate barriers may be a common obstacle

-- Larger animals are a potential threat

-- When .45 ACP ammunition is provided for free in larger quantities than other calibers

-- When restricted by illogical, asinine regulations that restrict magazine capacity to 10 rds or less

dravz
03-18-2011, 07:50 AM
Hmm. I'd have to make some major adjustments to my wardrobe to do that.

Probably true, but carrying big heavy guns is more about having a good gun belt and having a holster that holds it high and tight than it is about the gun itself, imo.

That said I carry 9mm and would only carry a 45 if I were in a mag-limiting state like CA -- in which case I'd go single-stack 45, e.g. a 1911 (assuming I could carry at all in such a state).

Kyle Reese
03-18-2011, 10:49 AM
Or you could go with the M&P 45 mid frame for such an application, or HK 45 or 45 C....:cool:


Probably true, but carrying big heavy guns is more about having a good gun belt and having a holster that holds it high and tight than it is about the gun itself, imo.

That said I carry 9mm and would only carry a 45 if I were in a mag-limiting state like CA -- in which case I'd go single-stack 45, e.g. a 1911 (assuming I could carry at all in such a state).

eagle
03-18-2011, 11:01 AM
I love my 1911 and shoot it pretty well but everyday carry it's just to big and heavy
i prefer my kahr p9 or glock 23 for ccw

Buckshot
03-18-2011, 04:18 PM
I have over 35 years experience invested in the 1911, but It's been rare that I go "Old Testament" style & actually carry it all day since spinal injuries about 15 years ago. I practice with it as regularly as any other & a hand-built 5" stays available in my "ready to go" armory, but truthfully, I only strap it on once every 60-90 days. Normal EDC primary is a G19 or an M&P of some sort in 9mm - I shoot them well despite spending too much time fixing guns & not enough time at the range (not an excuse, just the facts:().

dravz
03-18-2011, 05:50 PM
Or you could go with the M&P 45 mid frame for such an application, or HK 45 or 45 C....:cool:
:)

Nah, I had an XD45 for a few years and never really cared for it. Admittedly that isn't quite where you're pointing me but I'm not getting another polymer 45.

EVP
03-18-2011, 08:19 PM
I have a HK45c and it has been totally reliable,accurate and is a soft shooting 45. I have thought about going to a 9mm. It seems that the folks that do a lot of training prefer the 9mm based on two main points. That is it easier to shoot and ammo is cheaper. But instead of spending money for another gun and changing the platform it seems that it would be better just training with what I have.

I am just wondering how much real world difference would be gained going with a 9 over my Hk45c. It seems most advocate putting as many rounds on target as fast as possible. In a hypothetical example, would 4 shots on a 8in plate with a 9mm vs putting 3 on the plate with a 45. I don't know but sometimes I think that times between shots and all those different factors would make only a marginal difference when translated in a real world scenario. I don't know I am still on the fence on this topic.

SLG
03-18-2011, 11:31 PM
Let me say right off the bat that I don't think the caliber you're carrying (assuming modern, duty-type choices) matters very much, most of the time.

Let me also say that I carry a 1911, in .45, and don't feel the need to defend it.

Having said that, carrying a nine because you can get more hits for the allotted time seems silly to me. At the kinds of distances where your finger can go full auto, we're talking about .13-.18 splits for a 9, and .15-.20 for a .45, for most good shooters. The number of rounds you will accurately put on target is, for all intents and purposes, the same.

On the other hand, carrying a nine because you can shoot more ammo in training, and therefore get better with your gun, makes a lot of sense to me. 9's tend to break less, cost less and hurt less, and that's all good if you want to shoot better. 1000 round .45 days are mostly in my past now, though honestly, 1000 round 9 days have always been too much of a good thing for me as well.

Either way, I believe that the capacity and caliber are pretty meaningless in most circumstances.

GJM
03-18-2011, 11:42 PM
Running FASTest drills recently with a P30 in 9, P30 in 40 and an HK 45C, my times with the 40 were within about .25 of the 9mm, while my HK 45C times were substantially slower.

Considering the ergos of the P30 grip, the full size grip frame of the P30, the ease of reloading the P30, the ability to take an X300, and 13 cartridges in .40, I think a strong argument can be made for the P30 .40 over an HK 45C.

evanhill
03-19-2011, 08:56 PM
Either way, I believe that the capacity and caliber are pretty meaningless in most circumstances.

I dunno... I hear that .45acp is the one shot stop caliber of choice if you're gunning for skunks.

SLG
03-19-2011, 09:35 PM
Notice the "in most circumstances" disclaimer.

Everyone knows that .45 is the only sane choice for hungry skunks...

STS
03-20-2011, 02:06 PM
I posted this a while back on another forum, hopefully it explains my caliber choices. I tend to favor .45, but have no issues at all with a good quality 9mm rd.

___________

For a while, I was going back and forth - 1911 or Glock, 9mm or .45, 17 rds or 8, etc. Then I got some very sound advice from a gunfight survivor. He said all that crap doesn't matter. He told me that it is my gunfight, I own it, and I have decide what is best for me. I won't be able to get advice on the internet.

So I put some thought into what I carried, why, how I trained, how well I shot, and what I thought I might face. I carry two guns. Primarily a 5" 1911 with 8 rd mag plus one in the chamber, along with 2 spare 8 rd mags, or a Glock 19 14+1 with one spare mag. I am comfortable with either, though I shoot the 1911 better. Both have proven reliable.

What is more important to me is that I am carrying a gun that I am competent with, that I'm able and prepared to use, and that will work when needed. I tend to favor the .45 based off my experiences of dealing with gunshot wounds. The area I work in is ghetto, to be blunt. I deal with gunshot victims damn near daily. I have seen cases where an extra .1" may have made the difference between cutting an artery, or hitting the spinal chord.

Again, based of what I have seen with my own eyes, I feel bigger is better. The bigger the hole, the harder it is for me to stop the bleeding. It also seems that the bigger calibers do a better job of smashing bone, especially the heavier bones such as the femur and pelvis. None of this is scientific, I'm not that smart. I'm just staying in my lane posting what I have experienced and seen first hand. No need to argue with me or tell me why the 9mm is better, thats not my point - I don't want to get shot with either. The point is that I came to a educated, informed decision on what I prefered to primarily carry based on my own experiences and research.

I'm not as concerned with the capacity issue. In three years, I have been on well over 30 shootings. I can't remember any over 5 rounds, including OIS. Again, I know statistically 30 is nothing, but it is what it is, my first hand experience. Yes I could end up facing a bunch of armed MS-13 guys, but I could also get struck by lightning. I'm comfortable with 9 in the gun.

A well built 1911 with 8+1, plus a couple spares, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing is nothing to take lightly. Neither is a Glock 19. Both are outstanding platforms to protect yourself with. Neither is perfect, each has its trade offs, and nobody but you can decide which is better.

DocGKR
03-20-2011, 02:24 PM
STS--Good post!

willowofwisp
03-20-2011, 02:40 PM
STS--Good post!


+1 words if wisdom right there.

iCarbine
03-20-2011, 07:26 PM
I currently carry a 5" Springfield Armory 1911 stoked with 230 gr Gold Dots. As soon as my M&P9 arrives from G and R Tactical, I will begin the transition process to the 9mm. I have made this choice for many of the same reasons stated above, but I'll list mine anyway:

Ease of use/follow-up
Reasonable terminal performance with top loads
Ammo capacity
Modern design platform in the M&P
Lower cost of ownership/operation
Hopefully, with less recoil, I can finally get my wife interested

Also, I'm new here. Joined up after hearing good things about ToddG and pistol-training.com.

I look forward to learning from people who know WAAAAAY more than me.

scothill
03-20-2011, 08:42 PM
Notice the "in most circumstances" disclaimer.

Everyone knows that .45 is the only sane choice for hungry skunks...

But definitely not for owls, if you are interested in one shot stops that is.

ToddG
03-20-2011, 08:48 PM
but definitely not for owls, if you are interested in one shot stops that is.

awesome

24
since December 2009

oboe
03-20-2011, 09:42 PM
New here. What's Owls Unlimited?

David
03-21-2011, 01:24 AM
New here. What's Owls Unlimited?

It's a mass quantity of owls.

SteveK
03-21-2011, 07:52 AM
I personally never got too caught up in the caliber debate. At various points in time I've carried on and off duty, 1911s, Sigs, Glocks and S&Ws. As long as I was well practiced and comfortable with the operating systems I felt confidently well armed. Being aware of your environment and being on top of the OODA loop to me is the most essential element of self defense and/or offense (work). In the end, being smooth, violence of action and putting rounds on a threat continously until it stops are the biggest factors in winning the day. IMHO caliber is not that important.

gtmtnbiker98
03-21-2011, 08:29 AM
Well, I've been a long time carrier of the P30 and have recently acquired all the necessary equipment to transition to the HK45 Compact for my EDC. Why? I can shoot this gun pretty well, at speed, and overall - I like the design. The grip texture is a non issue for AIWB/IWB carry and another plus, I can still carry my P30's in the HK45c leather without issue. I've found this across the board when switching from P30 to the HK45c - the holsters seem to not mind the slight dimensional changes.

The grip is a lot easier to conceal when compared to the P30, especially with the flat base plates. As for the downgrade in capacity, it's a non-issue for me, I carry an extra magazine. The increased cost of ammunition is also not an issue, I don't mind paying for something that works for me.

evanhill
03-21-2011, 10:50 AM
the lesson of the wise owl is that caliber is no substitute for proper shot placement