Walther Q4 Steel Frame

[pew_pew]

They’re here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7bYX8OAM2V/?igshid=baj49e0zqabf

47330

[AJD21]

They will have the coveted 40 oz, $1200 striker fired duty market cornered after this. But in all honesty I love these.

[newt]

They will have the coveted 40 oz, $1200 striker fired duty market cornered after this. But in all honesty I love these.

Haha. Pretty much this. It's expensive, but I gotta admit I kinda want it. It'd be great competition gun. I probably won't do it because I don't want to do another platform, but it definitely piques my interest.

jm

[LockedBreech]

I will confess that after the CCP, PPX, and Creed I've been eyeballing Walther with some trepidation lately. My PPS M1 was a great, great gun (still is, in my mom's service) but I wonder if they're quite what they used to be.

Still, these look pretty slick.

[Alpha Sierra]

I will confess that after the CCP, PPX, and Creed I've been eyeballing Walther with some trepidation lately.

What's wrong with them?

ETA: the CCP has a weird operating system. Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. The other two seem relatively normal.

[Bart Carter]

I will confess that after the CCP, PPX, and Creed I've been eyeballing Walther with some trepidation lately. My PPS M1 was a great, great gun (still is, in my mom's service) but I wonder if they're quite what they used to be.

Still, these look pretty slick.

The CCP, PPX, and Creed were built to a price point to increase sales volume. The PPQ is the standard for comparison.

[AJD21]

In defense of Walther they are owned by Uramex that uses the Walther name on guns that don’t live up to the brands reputation(and that aren’t even made in the Walther factory) and I’m guessing that if Walther was its own boss they might not have ever let some of these firearms see the light of day.

Then again keeping street cred with “serious” shooters doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t pay the bills vs selling cheap guns to the the average joe.

[Alpha Sierra]

The CCP, PPX, and Creed were built to a price point to increase sales volume.

I understand that. I was asking about what is actually wrong with them. Do they not work when they're supposed to? Do they break parts like a mid 70s American car?

Or is this the typical "inexpensive = junk" mentality?

[LockedBreech]

If Ruger and Smith & Wesson can build reliable $250 guns there's no reason the CCP should have been a jam-o-matic pot metal gun. The Creed just smacks of the lowest-common-denominator "Grip Zone" style marketing that I strongly dislike. The PPX was fine but with a super strange grip angle.

I have owned a P99AS and a PPSM1. They were good guns. But my most recent shooting on a 2018-manufacture Walther (PPS M2) produced several stoppages with Federal American Eagle.

Inexpensive = junk has nothing to do with it. I enthusiastically endorse the Smith & Wesson SD9VE.

If I'm wrong about Walther, I'm fine with that. Just expressing some misgivings of late that I don't think I'm alone in feeling.

[Danjojo]

I will confess that after the CCP, PPX, and Creed I've been eyeballing Walther with some trepidation lately. My PPS M1 was a great, great gun (still is, in my mom's service) but I wonder if they're quite what they used to be.

Still, these look pretty slick.

I'd say PPQ/99 series pistols are less likely to have problems than majority of their competitors. More accurate and reliable than most with full spectrum of loads, better trigger while still striking primers 25-35% harder than other striker fired pistols, better able to handle dry or dirty conditions despite tighter tolerances, no need for aftermarket control or action parts, very long lasting internals and magazines, etc.

New or revised pistols outside the series not so much.

Agree PPS M1 is wonderful.

-------------

P.S. folks with a more standard PPQ should try out the small backstrap if they man sized hands. The medium with a hump in the middle of the grip, like all similarly shaped pistol grips, causes the pistol to cam more during recoil...huge reason for the reputation of being snappy or flippy.

[MattyD380]

This definitely piques my interest. I like the idea of adding a steel frame to a striker-fired pistol--I'm sure it shoots freakin great. I get the impression the P99/PPQ family of guns are kinda "sleepers" in terms of their accuracy and shootability--I was definitely surprised (pleasantly) by the P99c I shot a while back. To me, it was in another league compared to most other striker fired guns. But I will say it was pretty snappy... certainly 40 oz of steel would fix that. Plus, I'm sure the grips/texture are far superior to bare plastic.

Only thing...

The PPQ trigger is just too light for me without a safety. It's a sweet trigger. But it feels like a straight-up single action to me. At least the one I tried did. I kinda wish they'd introduce the steel frame with the P99 system (ie, decocker). But I'm fairly certain that'll never happen. Neither will a safety. So... probably not gonna be for me. But I like it. And I like the idea.

[GJM]

I get steel frame for a game gun, but unless the four inch is aimed at that market, I am puzzled why someone would want a Rey heavy striker, since lightweight is generally a virtue of strikers.

[Danjojo]

I get steel frame for a game gun, but unless the four inch is aimed at that market, I am puzzled why someone would want a Rey heavy striker, since lightweight is generally a virtue of strikers.

It is definitely an odd duck. I'd rather they sold just the frame for people that have 4in PPQ's to play with. Think it would sell better than the full-on pistol and also eventually sell more of the Q5 slides they released.

Walther insider told me they were releasing something very exciting this year and I'm hoping this wasn't what he meant.

[AJD21]

I think the popularity of striker fired triggers is going to continue moving beyond the typical $500 duty polymer frame gun. The reality is that Glock forever created an associate of striker fired=polymer but DWM and several other companies sold millions of striker fired Lugers before Gaston was even born.

Sacred cows will be sent to slaughter. The 1911 was a .45 gun for 100 years but is moving towards being more of a 9mm option if it hasn’t already. Why? People wanted 9mm but they wanted a 1911 too so worlds collide.

Same thing is happening with striker fired. People who love striker fired guns also want them in a steel frame.

Overall it’s a niche market but I’m excited to see the striker fired gun move into new areas(or really old ancient forgotten areas).

[Bart Carter]

The poly PPQ has a better grip for me than other guns. But the steel frame is even better. The weight of the steel frame "tames" the recoil and muzzle flip quite a bit. So the 4" could very well be something that would suit me for EDC. With a good belt weight is not that much of a factor for me.

[Borderland]

This is just too weird for me to get my head around. I think we are slowly devolving.

[MistWolf]

...The PPQ trigger is just too light for me without a safety. It's a sweet trigger. But it feels like a straight-up single action to me...
That's because the PPQ trigger is a single action trigger. A two stage, single action trigger. It's no worse than a Glock. Carry it in a holster that covers the trigger guard (just as any handgun should be) and it's as safe as any other striker fired handgun. I've been carrying a PPQ for a few years now and have shot it enough to need to replace the action spring with an upgraded version and round the corners off the original sights.

[LittleLebowski]

I’d like to shoot one. The full size Walthers I’ve shot had a disproportionately heavy/sharp recoil impulse, but shot very well.

[muzzleblast]

I am really wanting to like this, but some of you guys are raining on my parade. And... I am old enough to know by now that "early adopters are human guinea pigs." :mad:

[Bart Carter]

...Only thing...

The PPQ trigger is just too light for me without a safety. It's a sweet trigger. But it feels like a straight-up single action to me. At least the one I tried did. I kinda wish they'd introduce the steel frame with the P99 system (ie, decocker). But I'm fairly certain that'll never happen. Neither will a safety. So... probably not gonna be for me. But I like it. And I like the idea.

The trigger has the same pull weight as other triggers, about 5.5 lbs. The reason it feels light is it is smooth. It also has a crisp break and reset, which is a big plus for me. I haven't heard of many 1911 shooters complain that a 1911 trigger is too light. Maybe with use a person could feel comfortable with the trigger. I have shot Walthers for a long time and now other triggers are disappointing to me.

[YVK]

I get steel frame for a game gun, but unless the four inch is aimed at that market, I am puzzled why someone would want a Rey heavy striker, since lightweight is generally a virtue of strikers.

This gun will take first, second, and third places in the Compact Carry Division at the next Winter Indoors IDPA Nationals.

[t1tan]

I've been following Bill Blowers use of the Q5 Steel Frame and they seem very impressive. I've handled and dry-fired the standard PPQ but haven't pursued anything non-Glock for a long time. I kinda want to try one of these + ACRO + a comp since Mayhem-Syndicate has some prototyped, I can imagine it would make a great red dot platform.

[call_me_ski]

So I have some interesting insight into this gun and the company to share as I had the opportunity to spend some time at Ulm shortly before the Steel Frame was shown publicly.

Most importantly is that Walther Ulm/Do is essentially 2 companies today. Their headquarters and flagship facility is located in Ulm Germany accross the street from the famed proof house. In this facility they have an engineering team and they produce the PPQ, PPS, high-end rim fire and air-gun competition guns and slides for the new PPK. They also OEM parts for some other manufacturers that would likely surprise some people. Walther also has a portion of the Umarex facility in Arnsberg. This facility manufacturers the P22, PK380, CCP and other cheaper rim fire products. The two facilities have almost no interaction or communication in regards to production or engineering. When questions were posed to engineers at Ulm about products made in Arnsberg they had no answers and couldn't careless less to try to get them. They seemed to view Arnsberg as the dirty others. It is possible to identify which products come from which facility by the proof marks if you are able to see and by feel if you are blind. Ulm has the same antler proof mark that HK does and Arnsberg has a triple crown in a shield.


Now onto the gun itself. The 4 in SF was the natural progression of the line and was planned should the 5 in sell well. The frames for the 5 in pistols take 5 times as much machine time as a PPQ slide. The 4 in guns might be a little less due to the reduced beaver tail which is very complex to cut and if it should make it onto an eventual 4 in SF was a big topic of discussion when I was there. So they have to find about 6 times the margin in the gun for it to make sense to produce. The SF is not simply a steel frame on a PPQ. It has a redesigned slide, barrel and take down mechanism vis-a-vis the polymer guns. This was to account for the different material properties and the guns were very thoroughly tested. This will avoid problems such as Sig's breaking locking blocks faster on steel framed guns. They took around 4 years to get everything right and the team at Ulm was extremely proud of the gun, and after spending time with it they should be.

Now as to the why. The 5 in gun is self evident. A heavy gun is advantageous in competition. The reasons for the 4in become more obscure. Despite this, this was the version that I wanted. I definitely don't need it. I forgot who on here said it but in the Glock 44 thread someone asked if people still shoot for fun. This gun would fall into that for me. There is something satisfying about an all metal gun and these guns just shoot so well. They are a little nicer and have a different pride of ownership than a generic plastic gun that looks like every other plastic gun. And a 1500 dollar dolled up Glock is not my cup of tea. It seems like someone spending 100k in parts for Civic. This is different as it is born different.

As an aside, It looks like they finally got a Q4 plate for the RMR with a build in rear sight in the video. Hopefully they start selling it as it was the thing I was most vocal about regarding the PPQ. Its need for an optic solution that retains iron sight.

[MattyD380]

That's because the PPQ trigger is a single action trigger. A two stage, single action trigger. It's no worse than a Glock. Carry it in a holster that covers the trigger guard (just as any handgun should be) and it's as safe as any other striker fired handgun.


I haven't heard of many 1911 shooters complain that a 1911 trigger is too light.

It's still tantamount to carrying a 1911 or a Beretta 92 cocked and unlocked, in my opinion. For me, it needs a safety. And honestly, so does a Glock--though a Glock trigger seems mushy enough to present slightly more margin for error. Kahr is my new comfort zone for safety-less striker-fired pistols. Speaking of steel-framed SFA guns... the K9 has been doing it for 25 years.

So if they offer a safety... I'd be very interested.

[QuickStrike]

As a fan of metal framed pistols, I’m very excited for this one. The Q5 steel frame seems awesome but the holes in the slide turned me off a bit.

Gonna be awesome to shoot and a good cool weather carry/HD.

Purchase-wise, it’s either the Q5 or the DWX this year. :cool:

[MattyD380]

There is something satisfying about an all metal gun and these guns just shot so well. They are a little nicer and have a different pride of ownership than a generic plastic gun that looks like every other plastic gun. And a 1500 dollar dolled up Glock is not my cup of tea. It seems like someone spending 100k in parts for Civic. This is different as it is born different.

My thoughts as well. And thanks for all the info. I was aware of the difference between the Ulm/Umarex guns... but it's interesting to hear an insider's perspective.

[MistWolf]

It's still tantamount to carrying a 1911 or a Beretta 92 cocked and unlocked, in my opinion. For me, it needs a safety. And honestly, so does a Glock--though a Glock trigger seems mushy enough to present slightly more margin for error. Kahr is my new comfort zone for safety-less striker-fired pistols. Speaking of steel-framed SFA guns... the K9 has been doing it for 25 years.

So if they offer a safety... I'd be very interested.
Until the grip safety of a 1911 is depressed, it won't fire. It performs the same function as the "trigger safety" on the Glock & PPQ and the "trigger safety" is less likely to get depressed until the shooter is ready to fire. The trouble with thumb safeties is that they tend to get knocked off riding in the holster. That means we're back to making sure the holster design is a good fit for each particular handgun.

I won't tell anyone they're foolish for carrying a handgun with a manually operated safety, but I don't think a manually operated safety is necessary or desirable on handguns like Glock, PPQ or P365. In most cases, holsters are more important for safe handgun handling than manual safeties.

[Magsz]

Anyone have any insight into the beavertail designs on the PPQ and the Q5? I find them to be horrid comparatively speaking. The edges are too squared off on the PPQ and they're too sharp on the Q5.

They dont seem very ergonomic to me at all.

[GJM]

Anyone have any insight into the beavertail designs on the PPQ and the Q5? I find them to be horrid comparatively speaking. The edges are too squared off on the PPQ and they're too sharp on the Q5.

They dont seem very ergonomic to me at all.

Same here.

[Bart Carter]

I went to a pre-Shot Show event yesterday at Pro-Gun Club in Boulder, NV. Headed right to the Walther booth, and there they were, the new Q4 in optic plate and iron sight configurations.

I have shot Walthers for a number of years, being attracted to their paddle magazine releases and their triggers. I was fine with poly until someone talked me into trying the Q5 steel frame. I have been shooting it for a few months now and am really spoiled.

When I picked up the Q4 SF, it had all the ergonomics and balance of the Q5 SF. They somehow have the weight distribution well thought out like the Q5 because it seemed as though I was shooting the 5". Maybe eliminating those lightening cuts did it. The recoil and muzzle flip seemed minimal, the dot staying in the Vortex Venom window and coming right back on target. Thank you TPC!

Same grip as the 5". The grip is really nice, but just a little to big for me. On my 5" I went with LOK thin grips and clearanced them for my thumb to hit the mag release without having to change my grip. I will do the same for the 4".

The 4" has what they call a "duty-optimized" beaver tail. It gives a higher purchase for better recoil control over a poly. And because it is shorter, I think it will carry better in a holster or for CCW than the 5". It is more rounded than a poly, so it fits the web of my hand better.

So, the Q4 SF in not available yet, but I'll be buying one as soon as they are available. I'm going with the skinny adaptor plate with the Shield RMSc instead of milling my own, like I usually do. I'm thinking of using the Q4 for competition and carry. Looks like it would be fine for both.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Walther and have never received anything of value from Walther. They just work for me. :D

[OkieHeat]

I've had my PPQ M2 for at least 7 years and over 10,000 rounds through it. Put sights on it and something sticky on the grip and go shoot. Its a very boring gun to own, not much to tinker with. My split times are still a little quicker with my glocks and i can draw quicker with my glocks. But i enjoy shooting my PPQ.

[mrozowjj]

Anyone have any insight into the beavertail designs on the PPQ and the Q5? I find them to be horrid comparatively speaking. The edges are too squared off on the PPQ and they're too sharp on the Q5.

They dont seem very ergonomic to me at all.

I have a 4" PPQ and I tried the 5" Steel Frame and I feel like Walther dropped the ball on the Steel Frame because I personally find the PPQ to really fit my hand well and when they went to steel they made the frame just a bit wider and that completely throws off the ergos for me. I also wear a medium glove so I probably have smaller mits than most people on here so your mileage will vary on this front.

It's also a bummer that the Steel Frame has the same exact trigger. For the premium they are charging for the thing you'd think they'd throw something a little better in there. I mean the standard PPQ trigger is pretty good but they still could improve it a bit.

[BigT]

Finger banged them at SHOT. Nice gun I just don't see any use for it. A compact gun that heavy doesn't tick any boxes for me.

[RJflyer]

These are starting to show up at dealers now. Mine came in this afternoon. I was able to put a quick 200 rounds through it before I had to head home. Functioned flawlessly. Fit and finish are perfect. Accuracy and trigger are just like my PPQ M2. Recoil control is where the steel frame really made the difference...its heavy, but balances beautifully. Between the added weight and the checkering on the front strap/grips, the gun feels like it just sits still in your hand during recoil.

I did some quick holster fitting as well, with my PPQ holsters. My OWB kydex pancake hoslter (can't remember the brand) fits tight, but works. Same goes for my Safariland ALS duty holsters...it works but its a very tight fit.

I doubt I'll carry it on duty. My PPQ works fine for that role and is obviously lighter. Plus I don't want to lose such an expensive gun if I'm ever involved in an OIS. Bottom line, this gun checks alot of boxes for me and I like it. But like any 9mm handgun >$1200 its worth is purely subjective.

[Dcowboyscr]

I finally found a Q4 Steel frame at my LGS and put it on layaway. Picking it up on Friday. Anyone else purchased one recently?

[Dcowboyscr]

I’ve been reading all the old threads about Enel’s mallet dropping the striker on the PPQ and VP9. I also watched the video where a PPQ was dropped from 18 inches high directly on the rear of the slide and the striker released being stopped by the striker safety. I’d heard that Walther possibly increased the sear engagement on the PPQ trigger internals a couple years ago (2018?) that the Q4/Q5 Steel Frames also use.

Has anyone actually confirmed this and/or conducted new tests? I dropped my Q4 Steel Frame from 3 feet directly impacting the rear of the. Slide and the striker did not release. I’m sure the beaver tail shields the slide somewhat from impact though. Also, I tried hitting the rear of the slide with a rubber mallet and the striker didn’t release.

[NH Shooter]

Has anyone actually confirmed this and/or conducted new tests? I dropped my Q4 Steel Frame from 3 feet directly impacting the rear of the. Slide and the striker did not release. I’m sure the beaver tail shields the slide somewhat from impact though. Also, I tried hitting the rear of the slide with a rubber mallet and the striker didn’t release.

According to my research (lots of info on the Walther forum), early PPQs had less sear engagement to optimize the sweet trigger design - those are the ones that can be jolted to release.

I own a 5-inch PPQ M1 (paddles) which has the updated sear with more engagement. I will tell you that after MistWolf posted about his doing the above, I beat the shit out of mine including dropping it countless times and whacking it with a heavy rubber mallet in every conceivable way. After many, many attempts I could NOT make the sear release. So my takeaway is that this issue might be seen in some early PPQs but has been addressed with the updated sear.

My EDC is a PPS M1, which IMO is a fantastic carry piece. Within 30 feet I am as competent with it as the PPQ, it fits my smallish hands perfectly and is a joy to carry in a JMCK #3 IWB. The trigger is very Glock-like and the firing pin has an extension that protrudes out of the back of the slide as the trigger is pulled. I take full advantage of that feature by riding my thumb on the rear of the slide as I re-holster. For me, the PPS M1 is the perfect EDC gun;

https://i.ibb.co/chT2z03/edc-7.jpg


The PPQ is a more recent addition. I tried out an earlier version as a rental at the local indoor range and was impressed, so after some research I purchased a 5-inch M1 from GunBuyer (dealer exclusive model). Out of the box the trigger was horrible and the pistol was subject to failures to fully go into battery if limp-wristed even just slightly. The horrid trigger was due mostly to some rough spots on the trigger bar, which with some careful and gentle hand-polishing improved greatly. After a few hundred rounds the failure to go into battery diminished and has since been 100%, even with single-hand firing. The trigger continued to improve and has now settled into a smooth 4.5 pound break.

I fitted the PPQ with a set of 10-8 sights, purchased a JMCK #3 IWB holster and mag carriers. It carries extremely well for a large pistol, really just as well as the PPS. I absolutely LOVE the paddle mag release, using the middle finger of my shooting hand to actuate it. If I knew I was heading into harm's way and could only carry a pistol, the PPQ is without a doubt the pistol I would take with me. The only thing I wish for is the protruding firing pin extension out of the rear of the slide like the PPS. Like others have already stated, I too find the grip of the PPQ fits my hand very well, better than any other double-stack I have tried.

https://i.ibb.co/X3wHpxp/PPQ-10.jpg


I have found the PPQ to be as accurate as any other pistol I have owned. It's trigger can definitely be described as 2-stage, with a light take-up to a very discernible wall, at which the final pull has little-to-no creep and a crisp break. Using the wall to cleanly break the very deliberate shots, this target was shot at 60 feet and illustrates the accuracy capability of my sample using Winchester Ranger RA9B 147 grain bonded hollow point ammo;

https://i.ibb.co/LQMxgnL/ppqtarget-3.jpg


I used the PPQ to take a Low Light Pistol Operators course at the Sig Academy a few years ago. The course focused on the use of hand held lights and as such, resulted in a day of firing mostly strong-hand only. The grip contour, short trigger reset and crisp sear release works really well for me and my small hands firing one handed, something that is IMO of great value in a defensive handgun. This is a few hundred rounds of some 90 grain frangible ammo we were required to use, which I found impacted low and to the left of the 147 grain loads the PPQ is sighted-in for. Full disclosure: I fired each shot deliberately but out of 12 participants in the course, I was always among the first five or so to finish the string of fire. Range to target varied from 9 feet to 45 feet;

https://i.ibb.co/HF5Wcj5/ppqtarget-10.jpg


During this course we also performed many malfunction drills with dummy rounds loaded with live in the mag. I found that the paddle mag release to work extremely well for me, and the low effort to rack the slide made clearing the stoppage sure and quick. We did enough of these that in combination with the finger lanyard on the light (others were placing the light in a pocket or in their armpit to free the support hand), I was without fail the quickest to get back on-target with shots. All of this took place in a low-light setting where it had to be done entirely by "feel." I left that day with high confidence in the gear and my ability to use it in a low light setting.

I hope those considering a PPS or PPQ find this feedback useful. Now I guess I'm going to have to check out these new Q4 models.

[Dcowboyscr]

Thanks for the detailed post. Good stuff. I’m really liking the Q4 Steel frame. The pretravel on the trigger is disappointingly gritty however. I dry fired several polymer framed PPQ and subcompact POQ and their triggers were much better as in lighter and smoother take up and break after you hit the wall. I think this is one area Walther could improve these steel frame guns. I’m researching the Walther Dynamic Performance Trigger that’s supposed to be coming out soon.

[NH Shooter]

Does the Q4 use the same trigger mechanism as the PPQ? I would assume it does but I could be totally wrong about that.

If the Q4 was available with paddles I'd be mighty tempted...

[Dcowboyscr]

Yes the Q4 Steel Frame uses the PPQ trigger/Fire control parts.

[NH Shooter]

Yes the Q4 Steel Frame uses the PPQ trigger/Fire control parts.

Most of the roughness is on the top edge of the transfer bar, where it contacts the firing pin block plunger in the slide. For some reason they don't finish that surface very well.

It will definitely smooth-up on its own with use, and you can help it along with some minor hand polishing. I'll take a few close-up photos to show where.

Edit - this describes the process. I did not use a Dremel, did all by hand;

https://www.waltherforums.com/threads/how-to-smooth-ppq-trigger-pretravel-large-images.35563/

This gets the trigger to the point of very acceptable, and it only gets better with use.

[RJflyer]

It appears the Q4SF has a different trigger bar assembly than the PPQ. But the most of the other fire control parts appear to be common https://www.carl-walther.com/service/exploded-views.html?q=q4+steel+frame


Thanks for the detailed post. Good stuff. I’m really liking the Q4 Steel frame. The pretravel on the trigger is disappointingly gritty however. I dry fired several polymer framed PPQ and subcompact POQ and their triggers were much better as in lighter and smoother take up and break after you hit the wall. I think this is one area Walther could improve these steel frame guns. I’m researching the Walther Dynamic Performance Trigger that’s supposed to be coming out soon.

If you're experiencing gritty pre-travel, I'd recommend checking the striker safety plunger/spring. I had a PPQ with a similar issue but when I removed the slide and checked the trigger travel, it was butter smooth. So I figured the issue was the trigger bar's engagement with the striker safety plunger. I smoothed out that engagement a bit and still had some grit.

I finally isolated the issue to the striker safety spring, which was bound up inside its channel. Maybe it was out of spec, or installed improperly at the factory. But a simple replacement fixed it.

[ldunnmobile]

Any updates on this one? I messed with one today in the shop.... impressive feeling. Didn’t get to shoot.

[GJM]

I handled one this week. If ammo ever becomes unobtainium, the Q4 would make a great impact weapon — damn that thing is dense.