.44 Magnum vs. .45 Colt Magnumized

[Baldanders]

It will be a while before I buy a revolver in a higher powered chambering than .357 Mag, but when I do, it will probably be in one of the two cartridges listed in the thread title. I imagine a N-frame or Super Redhawk with a 5"+barrel, with a companion carbine. I would be solidly be in favor of of .45 Colt, but it limits my options, and it would mean I will probably never buy a .45 Colt Smith, as my personal policy is not to keep dangerous combos of ammo and guns that can chamber it in our house.

Assuming handloads, but with an eye to available factory loads, and use on light/medium deer, which one?

[Bigghoss]

I'm not a handloader but I've played with some nuclear .45 Colt loads. I don't think it matters a ton. There's going to be more load options with .44 mag but there's plenty of good .45 loads.

With a .45 Redhawk you have the option to play with .45 ACP which is fun.

[Rick R]

I’ve had both and now only own .44 Magnum guns. It seemed better to streamline at one point in time.

Having said that the .45 Colt is an interesting cartridge and capable of cleanly taking deer sized animals with “normal” loads from either handgun or carbine. The only possible drawback is that itty bitty rim on the Colt might possibly maybe cause issues in a lever gun or DA revolver. However the Winchester 94 I owned never had any problems and the Redhawk was a blast to shoot.

For your reading pleasure:

https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

[spyderco monkey]

It will be a while before I buy a revolver in a higher powered chambering than .357 Mag, but when I do, it will probably be in one of the two cartridges listed in the thread title. I imagine a N-frame or Super Redhawk with a 5"+barrel, with a companion carbine. I would be solidly be in favor of of .45 Colt, but it limits my options, and it would mean I will probably never buy a .45 Colt Smith, as my personal policy is not to keep dangerous combos of ammo and guns that can chamber it in our house.

Assuming handloads, but with an eye to available factory loads, and use on light/medium deer, which one?

Definitely .45 Colt over .44.

Specifically, the Ruger .45 Auto/ .45 LC, which lets you fire .45 LC / .45LC +P, but also lets you fire .45 ACP / .45 Super with moonclips:

https://gunblast.com/Ruger-RH45ACP.htm

.45 LC +P from the 4.2" barrel velocities:
https://i.ibb.co/z23G58R/Screen-Shot-2020-01-14-at-9-22-33-PM.png

However, the real deal cold steel option I think is the .454 Toklat 5":
https://ruger.com/products/superRedhawkStandard/images/5517.jpg

https://ruger.com/products/superRedhawkStandard/specSheets/5517.html

That will let you shoot .454 / .45 LC +P / .45 LC. And if you get it milled for moonclips, it will be able to also fire .45 ACP / .45 Super / .460 Rowland. Basically one gun that fires every .45 variant.

Then you could get this gorgeous .454 companion rifle...
https://www.bighornarmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/model-90-rifle-90a-casull-90b-colt.jpg

https://www.bighornarmory.com/product/model-90a-454-casull/

[Duelist]

47258

I’m not feeling a lot of motivation to go bigger than the .357, personally. These will do everything needed from a Magnum in my area.

If I ever do go bigger, it will probably be just a case of “I wantsit” not a need, so it will be whatever is making me feel the wants. B/C of wrist pain, it will be something that can be fired most of the time without being a beast, even if I’m not handloading. Thus, it will probably be a .45LC, not a .44 Magnum.

[willie]

Hand loaded the .45 Colt can surpass the .44 Magnum especially when the former is loaded with a 300 grain bullet. However, one can buy .44 Mag ammo in any gun shop. There is no lack of available .44 bullets for reloading. The other is limited. You would not fire many super hot .45 Colt loads through the lightweight lever actions because recoil is terrible. You won't fire many through a revolver either. If you desire a powerful rifle, buy a 45-70 lever gun. If you would enjoy shooting a single action revolver, then buy a Ruger .45 convertible. The ACP cylinder will provide opportunity for cheap, accurate reloads. The .45 Colt cylinder will permit loading sensibly hot rounds that will shoot through just about any animal you would encounter. Sensibly hot refers to a 250 grain lead bullet at a true 1000 fps. This one has manageable recoil. Buy a revolver with adjustable sights. In the Ruger everybody prefers the 45/8 barrel because it looks cool. Consider a 51/2 or 61/2 barrel if you are serious about hunting with the handgun or shooting it accurately. For plinking barrel length is not an issue.

[mtnbkr]

Pretty much what Willie said.

I've own 44mags in Ruger and S&W flavor for 15 years. I now only have the S&W. I also have a S&W in 45Colt, but I don't run hot loads through it. As a working gun the 44mag is the better choice for ammo and component availability. Handloaders can make the 45 more powerful than the 44, but they can also take the 44 up and down (300+gr bullets at 1300 are easily doable in a Ruger). Factory ammo, especially at hunting strengths, is far more available in 44 than 45, at least in my experience. Hunting-strength ammo in the 45 is pretty much going to be a handloading proposition unless you like expensive boutique ammo.

Chris

[farscott]

While I would opt for .45 Colt, since carbine has been added the rim of the brass case is very important. Some brands of brass have very small diameter rims not suitable for extraction from carbines like the Marlin 1894. I have seen rims as small as 0.504" and as large as 0.538" (M1909 ball load). The rim of the latter is so wide as to not allow adjacent rounds to be loaded in a revolver. Modern rims are about 0.508" to 0.510". Starline #1600 brass has extracted well for me. Starline #1640 is .45 Colt diameter with a length close to .45 ACP and works well for light loads. The case length is so different as to be very easy to tell which are light loads and which are heavy, and .45 Colt dies, with the exception of needing a shorter crimp die (the one for .45 Auto Rim is a good choice), work well for both cases.

[Hambo]

my personal policy is not to keep dangerous combos of ammo and guns that can chamber it in our house

I understand your idea, but I think it's overkill. Clearly label ammo and be careful. Unless you're ready for Aricept, you should be ok.


Assuming handloads, but with an eye to available factory loads

Factory ammo? Did your mama drop you on your head or something? ;)

As to .44 or .45, load a 250-300gr bullet at 1000-1100fps from either and nothing you shoot will know the difference. I started with a .44, and have had .45s. Because the guns are often the same, and the loads are same/similar, I never got that excited by .45s.

[okie john]

It will be a while before I buy a revolver in a higher powered chambering than .357 Mag, but when I do, it will probably be in one of the two cartridges listed in the thread title. I imagine a N-frame or Super Redhawk with a 5"+barrel, with a companion carbine. I would be solidly be in favor of .45 Colt, but it limits my options, and it would mean I will probably never buy a .45 Colt Smith, as my personal policy is not to keep dangerous combos of ammo and guns that can chamber it in our house.

Assuming handloads, but with an eye to available factory loads, and use on light/medium deer, which one?

Any discussion comparing the 44 Magnum and the 45 Colt should start with a reading from John Linebaugh’s epistle to the faithful (https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings):

“I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt. My boys have taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with their .45 Colts. They use a 4 3/4" Colt SA and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards. In my estimation it kills as well as the .270, 30-06 class rifles if the shots are placed properly. If I were hunting heavier game I'd step up the velocity to 1200 fps and in extreme circumstances, (elk, hogs, bear) go to the 310 gr cast slug. This load, 310 at 1200 will go through elk like so much air.”

I’m not sure what’s heavier than mule deer and lighter than elk, hogs, or bear, but those are the words of the master.


For my purposes, the 44 Magnum is a no-brainer. It’s powerful enough and I can find good ammo for it almost anywhere if an airline loses my ammo on the way to a hunt. But for logistical reasons, I also want a second revolver with similar capabilities that shoots a different cartridge. The 45 Colt is good ballistically, but there are wrinkles on the logistical side.

45 Colt revolvers and ammo are classed in four tiers:

Tier I = Colt SAA and clones, which top out at 14,000 psi. It’s easy to handload a 250-grain SWC or LFN to 1,000 fps, which will meet 99% of your needs. Factory ammo is another story—you might find something like that handload, or you might only find a load with a pointy 180-grain bullet at 600 fps that will barely stay on a pie plate at 25 yards. Test and make careful notes if you have to rely on factory ammo.

Tier II = S&W Model 25 and Ruger Flat Tops, which top out around 23,000 psi. This is a 250-grain jacketed bullet at 1,100 fps, a 280-grain cast bullet at 1,150 fps, or a 318-grain cast bullet at 1,070 fps. Brian Pearce has written excellent articles about handloading to this level in Handloader magazine, most notably in April, 2007. You’ll need those articles, though, because no factory loads this ammo and loading manuals don’t cover it.

Tier III = Ruger New Model Blackhawks (NOT Flat Tops or New Vaqueros), Redhawks, Freedom Arms 97, and similar guns. These top out around 32,000 psi. You can buy this ammo over the counter. It’s expensive and recoil is fierce, but they match the hottest 44 Magnum loads with slightly less pressure. Most sources of loading data call this “45 Colt +P” or “Ruger/TC only.” These loads can destroy a Tier I or Tier II revolver, so many—but not all—of them are intentionally built too long to fit into the cylinder of an SAA or clone.

Tier IV = custom five-shot guns with longer than standard cylinders, which top out around 50,000 psi. These are a handload-only proposition. I had a couple of these guns built by David Clements, and they’ll move a 325-grain bullet an honest 1,400 fps.

The 45 Colt has a lot of romance but most of its advantages are theoretical and only pan out if you handload to Tier III or IV levels. For your purposes, get a 44 Magnum. Factory loads range from around 1,000 fps to 1,400 fps. I like HSM’s 240-grain Cowboy Load, which does 1,150 fps from my 4” Model 29-2 and is accurate enough for deer out to 100 yards. American Eagle’s 240-grain JHP and JSP are equally accurate and do about 1,250 fps from the same gun. They're also relatively cheap and you can find them almost anywhere.


Okie John

[oregon45]

I own 44 Magnums because I like S&W Model 29's and Ruger Flattops.

I own 45 Colts because I like Ruger Bisley's and S&W Model 25's.

Either cartridge will drive a 250-300gr bullet to 1000fps and that is all the power I need, or want, in a revolver cartridge these days, after years of pounding my wrists with heavy recoil.

Buy the gun that makes you happy; whether it is a 44 Magnum or a 45 Colt is largely irrelevant, particularly if you are a hand loader.

Edited to add: I never had extraction issues with my Marlin 1894 in 45 Colt when using Starline brass. Some off-brand brass from gunshow reloads I picked up had very small rims, and those resulted in some failures-to-extract from a dirty chamber in the 1894, but standardizing all my brass to Starline fixed that problem.

[BehindBlueI's]

I suppose if I had to have only one, it'd be the .45 Colt. Not because I enjoy shooting it that much more, but because I enjoy loading for it that much more. It's hard to explain, but it's just more fun. But I don't have to choose just one, so I didn't.

[Trooper224]

In my younger years I was really into big boomer revolvers and did a lot of load experimentation with the .45 Colt. While it's still a favorite, these days my hands down choice would be the .44 magnum. Overall I can do whatever I want with both of them through handloading. However, I can walk into almost any shop in the world that sells ammo and find .44 mag on the shelf, not so with. 45 Colt.

[OlongJohnson]

47258

I’m not feeling a lot of motivation to go bigger than the .357, personally. These will do everything needed from a Magnum in my area.

If I ever do go bigger, it will probably be just a case of “I wantsit” not a need, so it will be whatever is making me feel the wants. B/C of wrist pain, it will be something that can be fired most of the time without being a beast, even if I’m not handloading. Thus, it will probably be a .45LC, not a .44 Magnum.

That's kinda where I'm at, but with more Ruger. I got out of the .430 business, selling some .444 Marlin rifles and my 629. All I have left is some .44 ammo and bullets that still need to get sold.

For some reason, though, I've started looking at Model 25s lately. This thread has me rethinking that.

[paul105]

I have both. Shot the crap out of both. Favorite short guns are S&W M69 and Freedom Arms M97. Have Rossi .44 Mag 16" carbine and 20" .454 Carbine (also shoots .45 Colt) -- just no real difference until you get into .454.
U
I've settled on the .44 Mag. No reason other than I shoot a bunch of different guns in that caliber.

Here are some pictures of the guns:

FA97 4 1/4" .45 Colt

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/97%20RIMG1972.jpg

S&W M69 2 3/4" M69 (5 shot L Frame), 4" M329 Ti/SC, 6" M629

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0855.jpg

Some chrono results:

Buffalo Bore, 305 LBT LFN HC rated 1,325 fps
Underwood, 305 LFNGC Plated (HiTech?) rated 1,325 fps
LabRadar muzzle velocity at 33 deg F

S&W M69 2.75" ===> BB 1,195 fps ===> Under 1,147fps
S&W M69 4.25" ===> BB 1,276 fps ===> Under 1,248 fps
Ruger SRH 7.5" ===> BB 1,395 fps ===> Under 1,315 fps

FWIW,

Paul

[Bigghoss]

Man, I wish I could afford a Freedom Arms. Well I guess I could if I really wanted but I could get 3 Blackhawks for the price and probably never wear out the first one. I guess what I really want is to be cool enough to justify a FA. Yeah, just a bunch of land, a couple really fancy six-guns, and a single room cabin with a bed and a reloading press.

[Duelist]

Man, I wish I could afford a Freedom Arms. Well I guess I could if I really wanted but I could get 3 Blackhawks for the price and probably never wear out the first one. I guess what I really want is to be cool enough to justify a FA. Yeah, just a bunch of land, a couple really fancy six-guns, and a single room cabin with a bed and a reloading press.

Add an appropriate rifle and shotgun, and a dog, and I’m there.

[Bigghoss]

Add an appropriate rifle and shotgun, and a dog, and I’m there.

I already have a nice sporterized Mauser and a Savage 99 plus a bunch of H&R singles...

[kihnspiracy]

If you reload, .45 Colt. If you don't .44 mag/.44special is easier to find.

[Duelist]

I already have a nice sporterized Mauser and a Savage 99 plus a bunch of H&R singles...

Winchester Model 70 .270, Marlin 1894 .357, Ithaca 37 Featherlight 12g.

[Rex G]

If I can find a reliably-feeding long gun, then, .45 Colt. My first try did not go so well, with a ‘92 Mirokuchester. My second try is with a ‘94 Angle Eject.

The damage done to my right wrist and thumb, in the Eighties, by shooting an S&W 629 with K/L-sized hands, has forever turned me away from any .44 Magnum.

An easier poll choice, for me, would have been .357 Magnum, for which I have a Ruger No. 1, a Browning ‘92, and several Ruger and S&W revolvers.

[jandbj]

http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=4684.0

[Trooper224]

If I can find a reliably-feeding long gun, then, .45 Colt. My first try did not go so well, with a ‘92 Mirokuchester. My second try is with a ‘94 Angle Eject.

The damage done to my right wrist and thumb, in the Eighties, by shooting an S&W 629 with K/L-sized hands, has forever turned me away from any .44 Magnum.

An easier poll choice, for me, would have been .357 Magnum, for which I have a Ruger No. 1, a Browning ‘92, and several Ruger and S&W revolvers.

This last Saturday I took my 4" 29 to the range. My typical range load isn't in magnum territory. However, I did have a dozen genuine Elmer style loads lying on a shelf and I decided to get rid of them. Years of copious boomer shooting in my younger days have given me the typical arthritic issues, so I rarely go top end anymore. Those twelve rounds were left from a box of fifty I loaded up about two years ago. After fifty of the normal range fodder I fired off the twelve heavy rounds. I put on a shooting glove for that but five days later the pain in my right hand remains. I think I'm done with hot lead masochism.

[Baldanders]

If you reload, .45 Colt. If you don't .44 mag/.44special is easier to find.

That's my takeway so far. I would love a .45 ACP/.45 Colt for cheap ammo and then I'm building a "family" since I have a 5" 625 already.

The problem with .454 is I might actually shoot .454 out of it, which seems like a bad idea for my poor hands.(all flavors of .45 is a really cool idea, however)

Do normal Redhawks really suck? I like the idea of the .45ACP/Colt model.

I have a feeling a 629 or SRH at a low price might make me go .44, despite all this. And I see those for sale all the time. Coulda scored a nicely tuned SRH .44 with scope and custom shoulder holster for $850 last year. And if I ever come across a 5" 629, I will have to get it if I have the cash.

[Baldanders]

http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=4684.0

That's a thought.

If .357 Maximum guns were common, I'd go that route.

Shot a Contender .357 Max. 10" barrel once. I swear that sucker sounded like a Star Wars blaster.


Hmm. .350 Legend pistol/rifle combo.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[jandbj]

That's a thought.

If .357 Maximum guns were common, I'd go that route.

Shot a Contender .357 Max. 10" barrel once. I swear that sucker sounded like a Star Wars blaster.


Hmm. .350 Legend pistol/rifle combo.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Read the post at the link. It’s just getting the most out of the 357 Magnum, not upticking to the Max.
Though the Maximum is AMAZING in a 16” Contender.

I can see where my title could be misleading.

[ACP230]

Neither. The .41 Magnum all the way, eh?

[358156hp]

I ran mirror image Redhawks against each other, loaded to the gills. A 7-1/2 in stainless 45 Colt, one of the first built in that caliber, and an identical 44 magnum. I used Lyman 452651 325 gr GC design in the 45, and Lymans 429650 300 gr GC. This was as close as I could get to an exact match. My final determination was that there wasn't a measurable difference between them performance-wise. I could match the velocities without much effort, and the accuracy & power were indistinguishable. The 45 seemed to recoil more, but the bullet was almost 10% heavier, so that was easily explained. Now I was playing with over book loads in both of them, and they both rattled me really well. In the end, I sold off the 45 & kept the 44. The only difference to me came from something that Elmer Keith once said about the cylinder walls in the chamber area being thicker. So I sold the 45 to a friend, and have been trying to buy it back ever since. He passed on the heavy weight bullet mould for it though.

I now have a Lyman 429649 mould for the 44, and am considering buying another 45 Colt Redhawk, a 452651, and re-running the whole thing with everything on even footing. The problem is that I want that Redhawk, not a different one, and he still won't sell. It's been almost 20 years now. Unfair.

[RevolverRob]

I’m opting for a .45 LC. But that has as much to do with .45 LC being a classic SA sixgun chambering as anything else.

For hot barn burners and you want factory loads - if you aren’t going to use Buffalo Bore or Garrett as your hot load source, just go .44 Magnum.

[Baldanders]

Read the post at the link. It’s just getting the most out of the 357 Magnum, not upticking to the Max.
Though the Maximum is AMAZING in a 16” Contender.

I can see where my title could be misleading.

I read it, then drifed into my usual desire for a straightwall (for handloading simplicity) case ,357Max to .35 Rem power-level cartridge.

I like the idea, but I will still want a big-bore combo after implementing it.

As to .41Mag, when I find a N-frame in in .41 at the same price as a .44 can go for, sure! It's the caliber snob's caliber.

[Baldanders]

I’m opting for a .45 LC. But that has as much to do with .45 LC being a classic SA sixgun chambering as anything else.

For hot barn burners and you want factory loads - if you aren’t going to use Buffalo Bore or Garrett as your hot load source, just go .44 Magnum.

Either way, I will probably end up with 240-250 grain loads at 1100-1200 fps out of a handgun with handloads . Maybe a bit more with a SRH, especially with an 8" barrel.

I doubt I will shoot much in tbe way of hotter stuff in a handgun. But I could see going boutique in a carbine.

For some reason, the only "cowboy caliber" I really lust for is .44-40, but I want it in an N-frame. No idea why. Modern .45 Colt strikes me as a different animal than the balloon-headed old round. I've never really picked up the SA addiction like I have for DA guns, despite owning a very nice Single-Six.

[Bigghoss]

I've never really picked up the SA addiction

You're doing it wrong.

[Trooper224]

Neither. The .41 Magnum all the way, eh?

Philistine

[Baldanders]

You're doing it wrong.


I blame Target World in Cincinnati for having plenty of Model 28s for rent, and no SA guns. I also give them partial blame for my DA obsessions.

Actually, the fact that I inherited a 5" 625 (within months of posting on some forum at the time that I wanted that exactly that model) is mostly to blame.

Due to Alien Nation, I have lusted after a Freedom Arms .454.

Anyone feel like sending me a nice wad of cash so I can buy one, and do this addiction thing "right?" Or I could create a kickstarter. 😈😀.

[Baldanders]

Philistine

I would use that word more with my students if they had a clue what it meant.

[Bigghoss]

Due to Alien Nation, I have lusted after a Freedom Arms .454.

Lets not forget Point Break.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/2/28/PBreak-00086.jpg/800px-PBreak-00086.jpg

[Stephanie B]

I blame Target World in Cincinnati for having plenty of Model 28s for rent, and no SA guns. I also give them partial blame for my DA obsessions.

Actually, the fact that I inherited a 5" 625 (within months of posting on some forum at the time that I wanted that exactly that model) is mostly to blame.

Due to Alien Nation, I have lusted after a Freedom Arms .454.

Anyone feel like sending me a nice wad of cash so I can buy one, and do this addiction thing "right?" Or I could create a kickstarter. 😈😀.

Read CJ Box and you're going to want a S&W .500

[MistWolf]

Growing up, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to shoot a wide variety of calibers from a wide range of handguns. Between the 357, 41, 44 and 45, I settled in the 357 & 45. (I also have a Ruger single action 41 that, for nostalgic reasons, I bought off my favorite Uncle) and have no desire to get a 44 (maybe a 44 Special in the right revolver). You get a lot of performance out of a 45 Colt with "Tier 2" ammo.

The 44 magnum is legendary for good reason, but a modern 45 Colt has a certain...presence the upstart 44 magnum will never match. The 45 Colt seems to get the job done more efficiently.

To answer your question directly Baldanders, I went a third route- Tier 2 45 Colt.

[Baldanders]

Growing up, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to shoot a wide variety of calibers from a wide range of handguns. Between the 357, 41, 44 and 45, I settled in the 357 & 45. (I also have a Ruger single action 41 that, for nostalgic reasons, I bought off my favorite Uncle) and have no desire to get a 44 (maybe a 44 Special in the right revolver). You get a lot of performance out of a 45 Colt with "Tier 2" ammo.

The 44 magnum is legendary for good reason, but a modern 45 Colt has a certain...presence the upstart 44 magnum will never match. The 45 Colt seems to get the job done more efficiently.

To answer your question directly Baldanders, I went a third route- Tier 2 45 Colt.

Just to make sure I'm reading you correctly, you mean loads that probably run about 100-200 fps over .45 Colt mainstream factory loads? (Or at least the listed velocities for those loads--I think most are loaded pretty tamely to avoid blowing up older guns)

Does that still basically mean "Ruger?" Not that I have a problem with that. But a .45 Colt Model 25 would go great with my .45 ACP example.


I did some some searching on current prices for .41s, and they really aren't bad, but I would say the ammo/bullet situation definitely puts it behind the .44 or .45 options for flexibility , although if I was just going for a pure deerslayer and nothing else, I might go that route.

[Baldanders]

Read CJ Box and you're going to want a S&W .500

Googled the author and I was suprised we haven't seen a TV adaptation of his works. "Red Dragon" made Charter Arms .44s seem like a good idea for a second, so who knows?

When the X-frames first came out, I got to fondle one and I was surprised by the nice balance. If one came along at a good price in .460 Smith, I would be psyched. A pistol with TWO power levels I will almost never use. 😸

[Lester Polfus]

Read CJ Box and you're going to want a S&W .500

It's actually a .500 Wyoming express, paired with a .454, when Nate wants to use something smaller.


Googled the author and I was suprised we haven't seen a TV adaptation of his works. "Red Dragon" made Charter Arms .44s seem like a good idea for a second, so who knows?

When the X-frames first came out, I got to fondle one and I was surprised by the nice balance. If one came along at a good price in .460 Smith, I would be psyched. A pistol with TWO power levels I will almost never use. 😸

A Joe Pickett Tv/Film project has been in development hell for quite a few years now.

[Baldanders]

I blame Target World in Cincinnati for having plenty of Model 28s for rent, and no SA guns. I also give them partial blame for my DA obsessions.

Actually, the fact that I inherited a 5" 625 (within months of posting on some forum at the time that I wanted that exactly that model) is mostly to blame.

Due to Alien Nation, I have lusted after a Freedom Arms .454.

Anyone feel like sending me a nice wad of cash so I can buy one, and do this addiction thing "right?" Or I could create a kickstarter. 😈😀.

I almost got a 1911 instead of the 625. I wonder if this thread would be "Grizzy LAR vs. .460 Rowland conversation" if that had been the case. The .460 Roland has always struck me as an "almost" solution. As in, it's almost a .44Mag or hot .45 Colt, but the inability to go with heavier bullet weights makes it almost something I'm interested in. I briefly considered getting my 625 re-chambered for it, but a new gun seemed more logical.

[okie john]

Just to make sure I'm reading you correctly, you mean loads that probably run about 100-200 fps over .45 Colt mainstream factory loads? (Or at least the listed velocities for those loads--I think most are loaded pretty tamely to avoid blowing up older guns)

Does that still basically mean "Ruger?" Not that I have a problem with that. But a .45 Colt Model 25 would go great with my .45 ACP example.

Here's a good reference for Tier II Loads: http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf Brian Pearce has written several other very good articles about handloading for the 45 Colt in various revolvers.

FWIW, I shot a cylinder full of this load https://www.grizzlycartridge.com/shop/grizzly-cartridge-ammunition/handgun/revolver/45-colt-p-265gr-wfngc/ through my New Model Blackhawk a few days ago. Based on the recoil, I'd say that the advertised velocity is spot on. Based on the smell, I'd say that the propellant is H110 or WW296. Based on the accuracy, I'd say that this load GTG if you need to shoot bear, hogs, or elk with a 45 Colt.


Okie John

[Baldanders]

Here's a good reference for Tier II Loads: http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf Brian Pearce has written several other very good articles about handloading for the 45 Colt in various revolvers.

FWIW, I shot a cylinder full of this load https://www.grizzlycartridge.com/shop/grizzly-cartridge-ammunition/handgun/revolver/45-colt-p-265gr-wfngc/ through my New Model Blackhawk a few days ago. Based on the recoil, I'd say that the advertised velocity is spot on. Based on the smell, I'd say that the propellant is H110 or WW296. Based on the accuracy, I'd say that this load GTG if you need to shoot bear, hogs, or elk with a 45 Colt.


Okie John

Good article! Thanks!

[MistWolf]

Just to make sure I'm reading you correctly, you mean loads that probably run about 100-200 fps over .45 Colt mainstream factory loads? (Or at least the listed velocities for those loads--I think most are loaded pretty tamely to avoid blowing up older guns)

Does that still basically mean "Ruger?" Not that I have a problem with that. But a .45 Colt Model 25 would go great with my .45 ACP example.
I suppose it does. However, you can take deer sized game humanely with a good hardcast 45 caliber bullet moving along at 900-950 fps without being too much for a modern Colt or Colt or Colt clone. A hardcast bullet with a large meplat gives a lot of penetration and while the wound track is narrow, the wide meplat does a lot of tissue damage along the way.



I did some some searching on current prices for .41s, and they really aren't bad, but I would say the ammo/bullet situation definitely puts it behind the .44 or .45 options for flexibility , although if I was just going for a pure deerslayer and nothing else, I might go that route.
Nothing wrong with a 41. It's only real down side is that it's the red-headed step child of magnum calibers. The 357 will do most of what the 41 will do and the 44 will do all that and a bit more.

Okie John sums up 45 colt performance quite well in his earlier post-


45 Colt revolvers and ammo are classed in four tiers:

Tier I = Colt SAA and clones, which top out at 14,000 psi. It’s easy to handload a 250-grain SWC or LFN to 1,000 fps, which will meet 99% of your needs. Factory ammo is another story—you might find something like that handload, or you might only find a load with a pointy 180-grain bullet at 600 fps that will barely stay on a pie plate at 25 yards. Test and make careful notes if you have to rely on factory ammo.

Tier II = S&W Model 25 and Ruger Flat Tops, which top out around 23,000 psi. This is a 250-grain jacketed bullet at 1,100 fps, a 280-grain cast bullet at 1,150 fps, or a 318-grain cast bullet at 1,070 fps. Brian Pearce has written excellent articles about handloading to this level in Handloader magazine, most notably in April, 2007. You’ll need those articles, though, because no factory loads this ammo and loading manuals don’t cover it.

Tier III = Ruger New Model Blackhawks (NOT Flat Tops or New Vaqueros), Redhawks, Freedom Arms 97, and similar guns. These top out around 32,000 psi. You can buy this ammo over the counter. It’s expensive and recoil is fierce, but they match the hottest 44 Magnum loads with slightly less pressure. Most sources of loading data call this “45 Colt +P” or “Ruger/TC only.” These loads can destroy a Tier I or Tier II revolver, so many—but not all—of them are intentionally built too long to fit into the cylinder of an SAA or clone.

Tier IV = custom five-shot guns with longer than standard cylinders, which top out around 50,000 psi. These are a handload-only proposition. I had a couple of these guns built by David Clements, and they’ll move a 325-grain bullet an honest 1,400 fps.

The 45 Colt has a lot of romance but most of its advantages are theoretical and only pan out if you handload to Tier III or IV levels. For your purposes, get a 44 Magnum. Factory loads range from around 1,000 fps to 1,400 fps. I like HSM’s 240-grain Cowboy Load, which does 1,150 fps from my 4” Model 29-2 and is accurate enough for deer out to 100 yards. American Eagle’s 240-grain JHP and JSP are equally accurate and do about 1,250 fps from the same gun. They're also relatively cheap and you can find them almost anywhere.
The Tier 2 loads will get a lot of work done with authority without without excessive recoil or tearing up a modern revolver.

[OlongJohnson]

Nothing wrong with a 41. It's only real down side is that it's the red-headed step child of magnum calibers. The 357 will do most of what the 41 will do and the 44 will do all that and a bit more.

The .41 is pretty much a reloader's cartridge. In which case, you can just load .44 a little lighter to throw the same bullet weight at the .41 speed, if that's what you want.

For maximum snowflakeness, it might be interesting to throat a .357 Blackhawk for .360 DW. My stupid brain is wired in such a way that ideas like that make me want to try it just to see how it works.

[Baldanders]

I suppose it does. However, you can take deer sized game humanely with a good hardcast 45 caliber bullet moving along at 900-950 fps without being too much for a modern Colt or Colt or Colt clone. A hardcast bullet with a large meplat gives a lot of penetration and while the wound track is narrow, the wide meplat does a lot of tissue damage along the way.



Nothing wrong with a 41. It's only real down side is that it's the red-headed step child of magnum calibers. The 357 will do most of what the 41 will do and the 44 will do all that and a bit more.

Okie John sums up 45 colt performance quite well in his earlier post-


The Tier 2 loads will get a lot of work done with authority without without excessive recoil or tearing up a modern revolver.

Yeah, I think the Tier 2 level would pretty much do anything I want to do. I would still lean towards a Ruger/Tier II gun because I want a gun that can use expanding heavyweight bullets reliably. Not that I wouldn't use a Smith in .45 Colt to harvest deer, but that doesn't quite scratch the .44 magnum-ish itch the way a Tier 2 platform would. (I'm not claiming it would actually allow me to do anything a Tier One couldn't, practically)

I'm not sure this thread has firmed up my decision that much, but it has certainly made the options and their various pluses and minuses pretty clear.

[Baldanders]

The .41 is pretty much a reloader's cartridge. In which case, you can just load .44 a little lighter to throw the same bullet weight at the .41 speed, if that's what you want.

For maximum snowflakeness, it might be interesting to throat a .357 Blackhawk for .360 DW. My stupid brain is wired in such a way that ideas like that make me want to try it just to see how it works.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/360-dan-wesson-cartridge-rifles/

I had no idea that existed. If I was going to get guns modified AND go for pain-in-the-ass brass, sounds great.

As I said before, if .357 Maximum was a common caliber, it would certaintly lead my options. Particularly if Dan Wesson still made a revolver with interchangeable barrels in that caliber. One of those with a 4" and a 8" would be very cool.

Gun Broker actually has a Contender and a Blackhawk in .357 Max up right now.

[OlongJohnson]

Starline makes .360 DW brass.

My understanding is that Ruger recalled and destroyed all the .357 Max Blackhawks. Apparently, people were loading them with light bullets and double-base powder that cut top straps to the point of danger. At least that's what I read on the internet.

[Grizzly]

I had a 7 1/2" Ruger .357 Max on lay a way when they first came out. About the time they started talking about bullets jumping out of their jackets and flame cutting top straps, my tool truck was selling his brothers almost new 70 Series .45 acp. So I pulled my money out of the Max and bought the Colt. At the time the .357 Max had me all fired up about like you folks here in these discussions. It's all fun until your ears and wrists go.

For deer and only shooting through the lungs so as not to ruin any shoulder meat, I found my .44 Ruger Hunter most efficient with hot handloads of the Hornady xtp 180gr. If I dropped the power level down to mild magnum with 240 gr SPs the deer ran much further and were sometimes lost. I never did use cast loads on deer.

I sold off the Ruger Hunter and paid for my ccw classes and the rest went towards some much smaller handguns. I kept the Ruger .45 Colt 4 5/8 and bought an old 3" .44sp Bulldog for giggles and grins. CA finally rebarreled it in order to get it to shoot to poa and then polished it up nicely and reblued it. I voted for the .44 based on how it brought deer down for me. I think I still have some of those old Speer 200 gr flying ash trays in .45 Colt loaded hot with some Blue Dot left over for the short Ruger. I finished off a deer with them once but never used it as my primary.47485

[Trooper224]

I remember the .357 Max being the latest thing when I was shooting Silhouette, which was what it was initially designed for. It was all the rage, until it started eating forcing cones and burning out barrels at an accelerated rate. Hipsters think it's cool, but the hipsters don't know what they don't know.

[Baldanders]

I remember the .357 Max being the latest thing when I was shooting Silhouette, which was what it was initially designed for. It was all the rage, until it started eating forcing cones and burning out barrels at an accelerated rate. Hipsters think it's cool, but the hipsters don't know what they don't know.

My interest in the cartridge would be to push 180 grain + pills. My understanding is that the eating top straps and forcing cone issues came with pushing 110-125 grain bullets to crazy velocities.

Academic, anyway, for my purposes--it is too uncommon to fit into my criteria for this thread, and what I want out of a cartridge that is more powerful than the .357 Magnum. I would probably only be likely to get a gun chambered in it if I get a Contender. And if I get a Contender, barrels for quite a few other oddball rounds are certainly a possibility.

[OlongJohnson]

[QUOTE=Baldanders;983414...barrels for quite a few other oddball rounds are certainly a possibility.[/QUOTE]

I went around a couple loops of that last night. I realized that one good thing about having a Contender is you can stop a bunch of bad ideas in their tracks (like altering the chambers in a Blackhawk) by asking yourself, "Would that really be better than just buying a barrel for the Contender?"* You can also think about three or four other cool ideas and wind up right back at an idea you thought was good awhile ago, but not good enough to spend the money on.

*The original form of this question was, "Would that really be better than a turbo Miata?"

[john c]

You already have a Smith 625. You can easily experiment with Level II loads with that cartridge; no need for a .460 Rowland conversion. Get some .45 AR brass and you'll get pretty close to .460 Rowland loads. In a revolver, you're not limited to bullet shapes and weights like in an auto loader. Old time gunwriters loved the 255 Keith bullet in .45 AR.

I don't think you specifically need .460 Rowland brass in a revolver. The .460 Rowland has thicker case walls to compensate for case support issues. That's not a factor in your 625. Plus the .45 AR brass has a lot of extra material.

[OlongJohnson]

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-auto-rim-brass

[Grizzly]

a dual turbo RX-7?

[LtDave]

If you are ever going to own .45 Colt guns other than the big Rugers, I’d not load any hot .45 Colt ammo unless you have a very well thought out method of keeping your ammo labeled and segregated. Nickle vs brass cases, SWC vs RN bullets, different color boxes, etc. Personally, I have guns that are not capable of handling the hot loads, as well as the Rugers. I won’t load any rounds that I can’t shoot in all my .45s but that’s my personal solution. At this point in my shooting career, I don’t have a need for any .44 or .45 rounds much over 1000 fps anyway.

[BehindBlueI's]

If you are ever going to own .45 Colt guns other than the big Rugers, I’d not load any hot .45 Colt ammo unless you have a very well thought out method of keeping your ammo labeled and segregated..

I don't even own any non-big Rugers and I label mine with a big warning sticker that reads **RUGER ONLY LOADS** even if they aren't really, just in the "+P" range. My thought is if I were to get killed or incapacitated I don't want any of my survivors, or some random schmuck who bought from them, hurting themselves.

[Baldanders]

I went around a couple loops of that last night. I realized that one good thing about having a Contender is you can stop a bunch of bad ideas in their tracks (like altering the chambers in a Blackhawk) by asking yourself, "Would that really be better than just buying a barrel for the Contender?"* You can also think about three or four other cool ideas and wind up right back at an idea you thought was good awhile ago, but not good enough to spend the money on.

*The original form of this question was, "Would that really be better than a turbo Miata?"

Now I'm playing around with the idea of a custom .45 AR barrel.

Or, god forbid, a modifed Circuit Judge. 😨

That plus my existing 625 and my itch is probably scratched. Buffalo Bore makes ammo in the Tier Two range.

ETA: maybe not quite tier two. That's Ok, handloads can fill that niche for me.

[Baldanders]

I don't even own any non-big Rugers and I label mine with a big warning sticker that reads **RUGER ONLY LOADS** even if they aren't really, just in the "+P" range. My thought is if I were to get killed or incapacitated I don't want any of my survivors, or some random schmuck who bought from them, hurting themselves.

I'm starting to think the magnumized AR has an advantage in not fitting .45 Colt guns at all. (I hope) Then when I get a .45 Colt Smith, no worries.

[Baldanders]

a dual turbo RX-7?

My father-in-law also had an RX-7 with speakers in the headrests, in addition to the 625 I inherited.

80s hi-tech!

[okie john]

You already have a Smith 625.

The 45 Auto Rim is an interesting proposition in the 625. For one thing, you can get a 250-grain bullet going 1,000 fps and not have to worry about someone shooting that ammo in a 1911.

With 250-grain bullets in my 4” Model of 1989, I got the best results with a heavy roll crimp and 45 AR cases. Most 45 ACP dies will give you a roll crimp if you screw them down far enough, but that puts a massive taper crimp on the case first. That can screw up the driving band on a SWC, which opens up groups. The crimping shoulder in a 45 Colt die is too high for the AR case to reach, so I got a buddy to cut the bottom half-inch or so off of a spare 45 Colt crimp die. It looks kinda hillbilly, but it makes a proper roll crimp without the taper crimp and those loads were demonstrably more accurate in that gun.

John Taffin has published good cast-bullet load data for the 45 AR. There's also a cult of 625 owners on the S&W forum. Those guys have lots expertise in using heavy cast bullets in the 45 AR.


Okie John

[Baldanders]

Thanks again to all posters in the thread.

A coda:

So now I know I have a revolver, and a carbine, capable of my stated goals. They just don't share a chambering. Fine.

When I do get some higher horsepower guns, I think I will be looking at a .454 Cassul chambered revolver and carbine, downloaded into .44 mag territory.

[Lost River]

Bumping this up.

The great thing about .44s and .45s in terms of effectiveness, is that they really do not require tops speeds. 900-1100 FPS and a heavy slug will pretty much do all that needs done in most cases. This not only applies to revolvers, but for autos as well.

A .45 Colt 250 grain projectile at 900-950 FPS has long been known as an extremely effective man and animal stopper. A .45 ACP using a heavy for caliber projectile, such as a 250-255 grain flat point at the same speed tends to be quite effective as well.

In todays age of "9mm is just as good as .40 cal, which is just as good as a .45, which is just as good as a .50" line of thinking, we seem to have forgotten that.

[45dotACP]

Bumping this up.

The great thing about .44s and .45s in terms of effectiveness, is that they really do not require tops speeds. 900-1100 FPS and a heavy slug will pretty much do all that needs done in most cases. This not only applies to revolvers, but for autos as well.

A .45 Colt 250 grain projectile at 900-950 FPS has long been known as an extremely effective man and animal stopper. A .45 ACP using a heavy for caliber projectile, such as a 250-255 grain flat point at the same speed tends to be quite effective as well.

In todays age of "9mm is just as good as .40 cal, which is just as good as a .45, which is just as good as a .50" line of thinking, we seem to have forgotten that.

I seem to recall reading a post by Darryl Bolke about how his department had a great deal of success with the +P 230gr HST.

IIRC that one clocks in around 950fps


While I have no concerns carrying a vetted 9mm JHP, if the stupid law that is in the senate comes to pass here (magazine restrictions) I will also have few concerns carrying a 1911, Glock 30, HK45 or M&P45 or any other type of .45 that can launch a +P 230gr JHP.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[okie john]

Bumping this up.

The great thing about .44s and .45s in terms of effectiveness, is that they really do not require tops speeds. 900-1100 FPS and a heavy slug will pretty much do all that needs done in most cases. This not only applies to revolvers, but for autos as well.

A .45 Colt 250 grain projectile at 900-950 FPS has long been known as an extremely effective man and animal stopper. A .45 ACP using a heavy for caliber projectile, such as a 250-255 grain flat point at the same speed tends to be quite effective as well.

In todays age of "9mm is just as good as .40 cal, which is just as good as a .45, which is just as good as a .50" line of thinking, we seem to have forgotten that.

I remember reading that a key War Department requirement for the 45 Colt cartridge was the ability to kill a horse at 100 yards, which makes sense given that the US was in the middle of exterminating the Plains Indians at that time. The original 45 Colt load moved a pointed 255-grain bullet at 1,050 fps, which was later cut by a couple of hundred feet per second. Either way, if it will kill a horse, then it will kill anything smaller with ease.

Upgrade bullet design to a flat-nose SWC and performance gets even better.


Okie John

[03RN]

Fwiw I'm really enjoying my m625 mg. I just sent the cylinder to TK customs for moon clip milling.

I'm thinking it might be my competition gun next year if it shoots ACP well enough.

[358156hp]

Fwiw I'm really enjoying my m625 mg. I just sent the cylinder to TK customs for moon clip milling.

I'm thinking it might be my competition gun next year if it shoots ACP well enough.

I always wanted to do this, then try it out with 45 Win Mag in a moon clip.

[JTMcC]

I remember reading that a key War Department requirement for the 45 Colt cartridge was the ability to kill a horse at 100 yards, which makes sense given that the US was in the middle of exterminating the Plains Indians at that time. The original 45 Colt load moved a pointed 255-grain bullet at 1,050 fps, which was later cut by a couple of hundred feet per second. Either way, if it will kill a horse, then it will kill anything smaller with ease.

Upgrade bullet design to a flat-nose SWC and performance gets even better.


Okie John

The German army used about 3 million horses during WWII so that was a feature for many years to come :)

OP either will get the work done, pick the one you like the most. M29's are much, much easier to find in .44 than in .45.

[03RN]

I always wanted to do this, then try it out with 45 Win Mag in a moon clip.

Not sure if that would work in a Smith. The win mag is a 40k cup or psi cartridge