Front sight - press

[YVK]

Was screwing around with different things at the range today, shot this

https://i.imgur.com/JjbC2AK.jpg?1

This is a walk back drill from 10 to 25 yards. Three shots were fired from 25 yards, including the single miss. The circle is 4 inches. The gun is an old Kimber in .45, veeery broken in trigger, .110 front with a fiber post inside a tight TTI rear sight notch. Pace faster than bullseye, slower than Bill Drill.

None of that is impressive or interesting. What's interesting is that this was shot with a target focus, every single shot. I've started to play with it about 18 months ago, after a Stoeger class, then I went slide mounted optic route on almost everything I shoot so all target focused there, and now when I shoot irons, I try to go all in too. The hardest part is to get rid of the habit after which this thread is titled.

That's all.

[Doc_Glock]

So you allow sights to be blurry?

At this point they almost always are whether I want them to be or not and I have found that a blurry front sight really doesn’t matter much. This has delayed my interest in a dot a bit.

[YVK]

Yes. The target is as sharp as my -2.25 OD / -4.75 OS, uncorrected, would allow. Front sight's blurry, in this case it was indoors so the fiber didn't matter. When I do this outdoors, I use fiber as a dot. I used to dull my fiber with a sharpie, now it is opposite. I want it as a bright as possible.

Two things in this case were helpful in getting such result. First, no time pressure so I was able to correctly reference the front sight to rear notch, even though both were blurry. When I do it at speed, I tend to just shoot just the front sight and we know that in many cases this is fine. Sometimes it does bite me in the ass and serves as a reminded that solid index is needed not only for the RDS shooting. Second, the setup was in a contrast scheme that my eyes like the best for accuracy shooting. This doesn't matter much for USPSA since their targets, whether paper or steel, give me enough contrast. This does matter for carry guns, and what I like for my carry irons today is quite different from one year ago.

[GOTURBACK]

Following as this is something I am struggling to accommodate myself, a blurry sight picture.
I have taken a liking to the Heine sights with a diy orange over white hi-vis front. Interested in hearing what sights others have found to work well for those of us with presbyopia. I shoot HK exclusively so that does limit my choices.

[TCinVA]

Making an accurate shot requires a lot less on the sights than people think. It's mostly about trigger. All we are looking for is "enough" sights to make the hit. If you can get away with a target focus and still make the hit, go for it.

[Alpha Sierra]

Interested in hearing what sights others have found to work well for those of us with presbyopia.

Choice #1: reflex sights
Choice #2: narrow front fiber optic, plain serrated rear

When it comes to choice #2, my eyes prefer the front blade to be about .025 - .030 thinner than the rear sight notch.

[JHC]

For years my front sight vision issue (near sighted plus presbyiopia after correcting for near sightedness) was fixed with monovision contacts but in the last year, diminishing returns hit. By the time I got a dominant eye dialed in for a sharp front sight, the target was stupid blurry.

Then last year I got Varilux X progressive multi-focal glasses. I don't know how they do it. But if the lighting is decent (outdoor in daylight) front sight and target ie B8 is sharp. They are spectacular lens with incredible clarity.

That all said, really good shooting can be done with target focus. I was pretty pleased with playing around with it last year. A Hi-Viz front sight is pretty helpful for quick work and transitions with the color blob working like a red dot.

[GOTURBACK]

Making an accurate shot requires a lot less on the sights than people think. It's mostly about trigger. All we are looking for is "enough" sights to make the hit. If you can get away with a target focus and still make the hit, go for it.

How much "Sights" are enough for a low probability shot though, think 15 yards and out on a 3×5 eye box will the trigger, and target focus allow one to make that hit consistently?

[GOTURBACK]

Choice #1: reflex sights
Choice #2: narrow front fiber optic, plain serrated rear

When it comes to choice #2, my eyes prefer the front blade to be about .025 - .030 thinner than the rear sight notch.

I have heard that reflex/rds can be problematic in the rain, I have been thinking of trying a fiber optic front but I have seen them fly out of other people's guns or break during a match, being that all my guns are carry guns bombproof reliability in all conditions is paramount.

[CCT125US]

How much "Sights" are enough for a low probability shot though, think 15 yards and out on a 3×5 eye box will the trigger, and target focus allow one to make that hit consistently?

Totally shooter dependent. A perfect press will allow less sight refinement. An imperfect press requires more sight alignment. Also dependent on target size. A B8 bull at 15 yards is more forgiving than one at 25.

[GOTURBACK]

I am due for an eye doc appt. in April, when I was shooting the other day I went out to 25 yards and could barely see a B8 center .... I thought presbyopia was my only problem maybe I now need distance correction too.

[CCT125US]

I am due for an eye doc appt. in April, when I was shooting the other day I went out to 25 yards and could barely see a B8 center .... I thought presbyopia was my only problem maybe I now need distance correction too.

Are you familiar with monovision correction? May be worth checking into and discussing if it's a good fit.

[GJM]

Why would it matter if your focus is on the front sight, or the target, if your sights are properly pointed at the target.

You need trigger control to shoot precise groups. You need grip to fire successive shots at a relevant speed. For most pistols shots, people vastly overate the amount of aiming that is required. Rob Leatham made a video about that. Heck, if your index is good enough, you don’t need any sights, as Jim Wall of Milt Sparks demonstrates by winning a big match with no sights on his 1911.

[GJM]

We have discussed this in years past.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33688-Target-focus-shooting

[GOTURBACK]

Why would it matter if your focus is on the front sight, or the target, if your sights are properly pointed at the target.

You need trigger control to shoot precise groups. You need grip to fire successive shots at a relevant speed. For most pistols shots, people vastly overate the amount of aiming that is required. Rob Leatham made a video about that. Heck, if your index is good enough, you don’t need any sights, as Jim Wall of Milt Sparks demonstrates by winning a big match with no sights on his 1911.

I respect your knowledge, and as having been a member here for quite a while I am familiar with everything you contribute here and enjoy reading your posts, you are saying that you can just point your gun at a low probability target at distance and be confident of making that shot just by having your fundamentals up to par? My perceived problem is that I can't align my sights well due to age related vision problems, and the target is not clear either at distance when pointing / aiming / aligning my sights. You know the old equal height, equal light method is challenging with my vision.

[Alpha Sierra]

I have heard that reflex/rds can be problematic in the rain,

https://youtu.be/eDpL35xfPFY


I have been thinking of trying a fiber optic front but I have seen them fly out of other people's guns or break during a match, being that all my guns are carry guns bombproof reliability in all conditions is paramount.
My experience is different. Not only has the FO in my carry gun has never broken, the one in my USPSA Production pistol hasn't either. I forgot how long they've been on there. And if it the FO rod ever falls off, the black front sight is still there.

[GOTURBACK]

We have discussed this in years past.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33688-Target-focus-shooting

I have to read this post thoroughly I remember seeing it previously, I was watching a video about a vision training drill to help develop changing between a near sight focus, and a far target focus. But my arms are not long enough for a near sight focus.... lol.

[YVK]

I find it interesting that the discussion kind of turned to limited eye sight / impaired vision shooters.

Stoeger is the most credible proponent of target focused shooting and I don't think he has vision problems. He thinks it is a faster way to shoot without giving up much accuracy. And The Way to shoot when shooter or target are not stationary. Irrespective of visual acuity.

[scjbash]

And if it the FO rod ever falls off, the black front sight is still there.

Not only is the front sight still there but if the lighting is good you have a "dot" made of the light shining through the hole where the FO was.

[GOTURBACK]

I am sorry I led this thread adrift, I guess with my skill level which is surely much less than many here, and no where near Stoeger, or Leatham I was having a hard time wrapping my head around the target focus method being accurate enough to make low probability shot when missing means hitting an innocent human being. Back on track guys.

[YVK]

You didnt lead it anywhere wrong, bud. I didnt have any particular direction in mind when I started it. This is purely thought provoking, anyone is free to post in any way they can relate.

My personal thought behind it was the dogma challenge. We've been told since the time we started shooting that choosing between the three focal planes along that line, we must prioritize the middle one if any degree of accuracy is needed. Leaving the most outcome important focal plane blurry. We now have evidence that it is not a necessity. You've someone mediocre like me hitting 4 inch circle at 25. You've someone very good like Ben killing it at Nationals at huge speed and with some 95% points collected. It's very thought provoking. Maybe in 10-15 we'll have a new generation of people who will teach target -press. Maybe not.

[LOKNLOD]

Why would it matter if your focus is on the front sight, or the target, if your sights are properly pointed at the target.


The ol' "see what you need to see". What you need is to ensure the sights are aligned. If you can align fuzzy shapes, you never really need focus on them. Or if they provide enough reference to be aligned while fuzzy...

I'm become a staunch proponent of the hi-viz front and black rear, but it almost makes me wonder if a traditional 3-dot setup, while distracting when you're shooting for a hard front sight focus, isn't necessarily a bad thing if you were trying to align the dots while target focused.

[GJM]

I think we agree that the “vision” part is a very important part of shooting. Where there are differences is in what “vision” means. Some interpret vision to mean a hard front sight focus. To me, vision includes leading with my eyes to the next target, watching the target through the entire shot, calling my shot, and not eye sprinting to the next target prematurely. Since I shoot a dot, I stay target focused, and most of the time when I shoot iron sights, I shoot target focused, since that is my default.

[LOKNLOD]

Since I shoot a dot, I stay target focused, and most of the time when I shoot iron sights, I shoot target focused, since that is my default.

For guys who shot dogs and transition back to irons, GJM and others who are doing this, do you feel it’s improved your ability to shoot irons, or dulled that skill?

[JHC]

I find it interesting that the discussion kind of turned to limited eye sight / impaired vision shooters.

Stoeger is the most credible proponent of target focused shooting and I don't think he has vision problems. He thinks it is a faster way to shoot without giving up much accuracy. And The Way to shoot when shooter or target are not stationary. Irrespective of visual acuity.

Indeed, and I am pretty sure Frank Proctor is not a hard front sight focus pistol shooter either. He speaks of seeing through the sights. I've not had this particular course of instruction with him however.

IMO the neat thing about tying in the impaired vision angle is the ah ha! moment this opens up for shooters that just think they're impaired vs "differently abled." LOL

I introduced target focus pistol shooting to a young mid twenties shooter about a year ago who is a very good trigger presser. On 25 yard 8" plates he could knock them down with target focus as easily as he had with front sight focus right out the gate, as in he was going 6 for 6. He was pretty astounded by his own experience.

Sometimes, like right now, I think I should really go all in for a few months on target focus and see what happens. Even though my Varilux X are working, some days I still wear contacts and they are more variable day to day. And poor lighting can really degrade me - not darkness, just like overcast even.

[JHC]

I am sorry I led this thread adrift, I guess with my skill level which is surely much less than many here, and no where near Stoeger, or Leatham I was having a hard time wrapping my head around the target focus method being accurate enough to make low probability shot when missing means hitting an innocent human being. Back on track guys.

I'd be very curious if Jack Wilson had corrective lenses on or if he shot target focus for that head shot. I can't imagine his 71 year old vision naturally gives him a crisp front sight.

[Gio]

I try to shoot target focus as much as I can for any action/defensive pistol shooting. I find myself dropping back into a comfortable front sight focus occasionally in matches when i'm shooting like a b#%!&, but my practice sessions tell me I can get away with target focus on any difficulty of target presentation in USPSA at any level. One of my biggest take-aways from nationals this year was that I shot too conservatively on several difficult stages, and found myself falling back on a hard front sight focus when I didn't need it. At local matches, I make a conscious effort to target focus everything.

[YVK]

For guys who shot dogs and transition back to irons, GJM and others who are doing this, do you feel it’s improved your ability to shoot irons, or dulled that skill?

It is a loaded question. The standard or most common answer is yes, it helps your irons shooting.

A credible answer should be quantitative. I dont know of many people who got really good with dot and then went back to serious performance-measured shooting with irons. Personally, I know that I didn't get any worse. I still shoot irons regularly, just not in matches or on a clock much. I do believe that dot did help my irons but I don't know that for sure.
I can tell for sure that shooting the dot greatly improved my understanding what I can do to improve my irons shooting.

[TCinVA]

NVM, errant click.

To quote ARay, the sights whisper to you. The dot yells at you.

It's like a coach sitting on the top of your gun and it helps you see things that most don't see with iron sights. As a result, they pick up on errors they hadn't seen before and now they can correct them...and viola: They shoot better.

[ER_STL]

The timing of this post is awesome. I picked up a SIRT about six months ago and discovered through lots of dry-fire that I was able to hit relatively small targets out to about 10-12 yards using full target focus, where I was only peripherally aware of the alignment of blurry sights intercepting my field of view. In my opinion, this is mandatory - at least for me - when trying to hit dynamically moving targets.

YVK, were you looking through your sites or over them? Curious...

[Doc_Glock]

If target focus works just fine (and I believe it does), why, are a lot of visually challenged older shooters running for the dots? Aside from the coaching aspects of the dot that is.

[Bart Carter]

If target focus works just fine (and I believe it does), why, are a lot of visually challenged older shooters running for the dots? Aside from the coaching aspects of the dot that is.

Well, (I'm a Distinguished/Super Senior) I could shoot pretty well with soft focus sights, but took extra time trying to get my irons lined up, so used corrective lenses. Moved on to red dots and found my irons improved too, which I contributed to being "taught" by the red dot.

I'm going to work on target focus with irons and do some evaluating. :p

[YVK]

@YVK (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=39), were you looking through your sites or over them? Curious...

Through the sites. I saw a blurry front sight inside even blurrier rear window, and was fighting the habit of trying to see the front sight clear.


If target focus works just fine (and I believe it does), why, are a lot of visually challenged older shooters running for the dots?

Dot's easier. You still need to see the front sight, albeit blurry, and you do need to have it within rear notch when shooting irons target focused.

[Alpha Sierra]

If target focus works just fine (and I believe it does), why, are a lot of visually challenged older shooters running for the dots? Aside from the coaching aspects of the dot that is.

Because reflex sights offer a reference point projected out into the same focal plane as the target.

No matter how you slice it, that's easier for the brain to process than some tiny, blurry reference marks on top of your pistol.

[YVK]

Because reflex sights offer a reference point projected out into the same focal plane as the target.

The dot doesn't leave the focal plane of a glass. You're still reconciling two different focal planes, target and glass. We don't think of it but in reality the dot is just like a big bright fiberoptic that doesn't need to be referenced to the rear sight's notch.

[Alpha Sierra]

The dot doesn't leave the focal plane of a glass.
The reticle's image is physically at the reflector lens. But the brain perceives it to be in the same plane as the target

At least that's how I understand how the brain interprets visual input.

[YVK]

Probably. It just suddenly occurred to me recently that, from pure visual / physiologic standpoint, to shoot the dot we still have to see something that's located just a couple inches south of a front sight.

[Norville]

Did some messing around with this at the range today. First pic is sighted fire, comparing 124 to 147.

Second pic is target focus, crystal clear 'X' and blurry but aligned sights. This is just at 10-12 yards as the target stands are frozen in the snow. I stuck an 'A' zone (Amazon box flap) in the snow at about 20 yards and went 5/5 with a softer than normal FS focus but more of a pattern than a group.

More experiments require, and I'll stick with the dot for now but it gives me something to work on with irons.

[Clusterfrack]

I shot El Pres twice today with my CO Shadow2. It was cold, and my reloads sucked. But the results were interesting with regard to this discussion. First run was with the optic on, target focus of course. 2nd run was dot off, target focus.

Dot on: 48 points / 5.22s = 9.2HF

Dot off: 50 points / 5.33s = 9.4HF

[TCinVA]

I stuck an 'A' zone (Amazon box flap) in the snow at about 20 yards and went 5/5 with a softer than normal FS focus but more of a pattern than a group.

Without a distinctive aiming reference on that, a "pattern" is normal.

Try it with an actual B8 down there and see how it do. Goal is just keep the irons in the black, work the trigger.

[Dave T]

This will prove I'm a Boomer, and possibly annoy all the smart kids here, but I was taught as far back as 1977 by a guy named Cooper that you focus on the front sight for every dry fire and every round fired in practice and training. That way, when the stinky brown stuff hits the air circulation device your hands, arms and shoulders know how to align the handgun with where your eyes are looking, no matter if you can see the sights or not.

My experience over the years proved that to be true, but I suspect it's all out-dated now. OK, I'm going to take my meds and go lay down for a while. (smile)

Dave

[Chris17404]

Is there an optimal or recommended iron sight setup that works best for target-focused pistol shooting? Any specific brands/models of sights?

[YVK]

That way, when the stinky brown stuff hits the air circulation device your hands, arms and shoulders know how to align the handgun with where your eyes are looking, no matter if you can see the sights or not.



I think that most people call this "index" these days, and it must be present regardless which part on the four-point line you choose to keep sharp or blurry. Obviously, you'll hear no argument if you prefer a hard front sight focus on each and every shot.

Just curious, and that's an honest question: in 1977 how much shooting did Cooper do while moving rapidly, or at rapidly moving targets?


Is there an optimal or recommended iron sight setup that works best for target-focused pistol shooting? Any specific brands/models of sights?

That's really a great question. For competition use, which in most instances also means "outdoors", there is not much debate that a fiberoptic sight of your preferred color is the way to go. For the defensive gun to me it is a much harder question. I've lost fiber on my game guns so many times that I won't consider it on a carry gun. Worse, in a low light scenarios (but good enough to ID the target) I've found zero visual difference between FO and plain black sights. Adding a third variable, low light, fiber sight, and non contrast target, and I had to resort for front sight focus because I couldn't make the dark front against dark target in a dark room when target focused.
I now prefer tritium sights with bright outlines. A year ago I was blackening the bright outlines with a sharpie to give a bold definition of top font edge. Now I want that outline pop out against all backgrounds and to me it is usually bright yellow. I generally use Ameriglos.

[Dave T]

Just curious, and that's an honest question: in 1977 how much shooting did Cooper do while moving rapidly, or at rapidly moving targets.

My December 1977 250 class was a shake-down before they officially opened to the public. I was lucky in that the guest instructor helping Cooper was the legendary holster maker Bruce Nelson. Their emphasis when we moved was more about tactics than speed.

Going through the Donga, a kind of assault course through a many channeled wash, and the Fun House, the indoor building clearing exercise, they were very critical of our use (or non-use) of cover and our foot-work. They emphasized not getting caught with your feet crossed in case you had to move suddenly. Another biggie was running your gun dry. A locked back slide or the click of a revolver's hammer on an already fired chamber was punishable by purchasing a case of beer for the school.

The back porch on Cooper's double wide trailer (he hadn't started construction on his house yet) was stacked high with beer. After the final exercises on Saturday we all had a few beers and celebrated our graduation and the awarding of certificates.

Dave

[GJM]

My first Gunsite class was 1991, API 270 the rifle class, taught by Jeff. It was memorable as was he.

[YVK]

My December 1977 250 class was a shake-down ....


Cool life experience. I was 9 years old then and played with toy guns literally at the opposite side of the globe.

[GJM]

Most of what we do today with a pistol can trace its roots to Gunsite.

[41magfan]

Putting all the dogma aside, hitting your intended target is simply a function of achieving adequate muzzle orientation and then pulling the trigger in a manner that doesn't unacceptably disrupt that orientation.

There are many ways to achieve adequate muzzle orientation, some of which don't even involve the use of the sights. When the sights are used however, the degree in which they are utilized (sight focus vs target focus) can be best described as a continuum - NOT an absolute.

Along those same lines, there are many ways to pull the trigger and we all know how the variables (weight of pull, arc & range of movement, trigger shape, etc) effect us all in generally subjective ways.

Lastly, the more hand/eye coordination you have "naturally", the less any of this seems to matter. For most of us however, predictable performance is best achieved with proper training and practice and the proof is in the pudding …. not the process.

[JAD]

.

Just curious, and that's an honest question: in 1977 how much shooting did Cooper do while moving rapidly, or at rapidly moving targets?.

From reading him, a lot of the latter, to include clay pigeons and jackrabbits. Not much of the former; he was very focused on making a good shot (if you can get... steadier, get steadier).

He was also a relatively good point shooter. George or some of the others may know better, but I think you could substantiate through his writing that he believed in something very like index shooting / target focus at the level of mastery.

[GOTURBACK]

Are there any tips that would help someone develop their target focus ability if they have never consciously utilized it before?

[GJM]

From reading him, a lot of the latter, to include clay pigeons and jackrabbits. Not much of the former; he was very focused on making a good shot (if you can get... steadier, get steadier).

He was also a relatively good point shooter. George or some of the others may know better, but I think you could substantiate through his writing that he believed in something very like index shooting / target focus at the level of mastery.

You just made me remember a story about Jeff boondocking in Mexico, carrying a 1911 in .38 Super, because .45 was verboten there. Some large bird flew over, and he shot it with his 1911, which featured notably in a chapter of one of his books.

In the Gunsite rifle class, we shot moving clay pigeons with our .308 bolt rifles. Also did that at his Whittington reunions. My proudest rifle moment was breaking two successive clay pigeons with Finn Aagard’s Mauser .30-06.

Despite his later displeasure with IPSC, Jeff was one of the original gamers, and loved technical shooting challenges.

[YVK]

Are there any tips that would help someone develop their target focus ability if they have never consciously utilized it before?

Please dont take this as a qualified advice or tip. I dont have anything to show for to claim any sme on this. Below is my frame work to improve this.

1. You still need your sights aligned but now your visual plane is way out of front sight's, and waaaaay out of year's. I work on index which to me now means front sight pointing where I look AND front and rear aligned.

Side track: when people cant pick their dot fast, it automatically means they dont bring their irons up correctly aligned too. I never realized how much micro adjustments I had to do with my irons alignment even if front sight was on target.

So, whatever exercises or modalities i use, i need to be sure that when I bring my irons, they are aligned. I use dot shooting and SAFE exercise for that.

Once I am reasonably sure of the above, I just try to commit to go all in on it but avoid point shooting. Easier said than done.

[Norville]

Without a distinctive aiming reference on that, a "pattern" is normal.

Try it with an actual B8 down there and see how it do. Goal is just keep the irons in the black, work the trigger.

I will try that. Interestingly, the last time I shot group in a class setting the instructor (Steve Anderson) specifically advocated a 'zone' aiming technique and did not advocate an aiming point such as a paster on a USPSA head box. Results were good from 25 yards and in with a dot. Over the years I have heard many different opinions on this, and both have worked well for me.


Are there any tips that would help someone develop their target focus ability if they have never consciously utilized it before?

I'd say just go out and try it. Use a B8 like I did so you can have something crisp to focus on the target at a reasonable 7-10 yards. Shift your focus from the front sight to the target and back, fire a few shots and see how it goes. Adjust distance as you go.

[Clusterfrack]

Target focus on a single static target with iron sights seems unnecessary. I get the most out of target focus shooting with irons on an array of targets, a moving target, or when I'm shooting on the move.

Here's a good way to train target focus: 6 shots on a standard 3 target array: shoot 2 on one target, look at the center of the scoring area on the next target, then and only then move your gun to engage that target, etc.

[Alpha Sierra]

Target focus on a single static target with iron sights seems unnecessary. I get the most out of target focus shooting with irons on an array of targets, a moving target, or when I'm shooting on the move.

Here's a good way to train target focus: 6 shots on a standard 3 target array: shoot 2 on one target, look at the center of the scoring area on the next target, then and only then move your gun to engage that target, etc.

Crawl, walk, run

[JHC]

Target focus on a single static target with iron sights seems unnecessary. I get the most out of target focus shooting with irons on an array of targets, a moving target, or when I'm shooting on the move.

Here's a good way to train target focus: 6 shots on a standard 3 target array: shoot 2 on one target, look at the center of the scoring area on the next target, then and only then move your gun to engage that target, etc.

Context is king! Thanks for that tip. I'm looking forward to this Sunday.

[JHC]

All 175 rounds of my range trip yesterday were fired with the target focus.

I posted some particulars on a couple of the DoW results. This one for example.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40049-Week-353-Five-Second-Standard&p=983348#post983348

I was very aware of a feeling that I was able to better concentrate on a good trigger press without any concentration going into managing even light bars around the rear sight etc.

I shot it with contact lens - that are wearing long on their 30 day life span, a condition which results in their correction being less acute than when new. Therefore my sights were distinctly fuzzy. Next week I'll try it with the Varilux X glasses and clear sights, but still focused on the target.

I think I preferred this exercise with the HD yellows on the G17 vs the black with tritium Warren front sight on my G45 but my hits were really equal between the two.

I also did some two and three target transitions which I was pretty satisfied with.

These DoWs and the transitions were not shot like I was trying to go full speed. The DoW had their par times which allowed for a classic "rapid fire" cadence which leaves some time for "patience" which is a weakness of mine.

When all was said and done over 90% of the hits were in the upper third of the lower A zone which I liked.

From 25 yards with the G22 I fired the three hits marked with green sharpie and connected for the upper A zone/headbox slowfire and I'll take that any day shooting Glocks.

47500

[JHC]

I try to shoot target focus as much as I can for any action/defensive pistol shooting. I find myself dropping back into a comfortable front sight focus occasionally in matches when i'm shooting like a b#%!&, but my practice sessions tell me I can get away with target focus on any difficulty of target presentation in USPSA at any level. One of my biggest take-aways from nationals this year was that I shot too conservatively on several difficult stages, and found myself falling back on a hard front sight focus when I didn't need it. At local matches, I make a conscious effort to target focus everything.

Based on your record of shooting discussed on these pages, this counts for a lot. Follow up question: do you suppose that target focus enhances general SA concerning a target, assessment and such things?

[Gio]

Based on your record of shooting discussed on these pages, this counts for a lot. Follow up question: do you suppose that target focus enhances general SA concerning a target, assessment and such things?

Yes definitely. There are a lot of benefits of training to shoot target focus that crossover into real world application, this being the primary one. I think most individuals in deadly force encounters tend to focus on the target anyway, which contributes to the poor hit ratio among law enforcement officers and concealed carry holders who are likely looking over their sights, having never practiced shooting with a target focus on the range and likely not even realize they are shooting target focused when under tremendous stress/pressure.

In my experience if you regularly train to bring your sights to your point of focus and shoot that way without transitioning your focal point back to your sights, you are going to be able to make accurate shots with a target focus sight picture under stress.

[Bart Carter]

Tested this out last week and realized that I actually bring my sights to what I am focused on. I can't believe I have been target focus shooting all this time and didn't know it. :p

[Eyesquared]

Yes definitely. There are a lot of benefits of training to shoot target focus that crossover into real world application, this being the primary one. I think most individuals in deadly force encounters tend to focus on the target anyway, which contributes to the poor hit ratio among law enforcement officers and concealed carry holders who are likely looking over their sights, having never practiced shooting with a target focus on the range and likely not even realize they are shooting target focused when under tremendous stress/pressure.

In my experience if you regularly train to bring your sights to your point of focus and shoot that way without transitioning your focal point back to your sights, you are going to be able to make accurate shots with a target focus sight picture under stress.

Does it matter to you whether the front sight is fiber optic, high vis, etc? Just curious. I have been sort of trying to shoot target focused on everything for USPSA simply because it's more congruent with how I handle target transitions, swingers, etc, but that is with a fairly bright green fiber.

[Gio]

Does it matter to you whether the front sight is fiber optic, high vis, etc? Just curious. I have been sort of trying to shoot target focused on everything for USPSA simply because it's more congruent with how I handle target transitions, swingers, etc, but that is with a fairly bright green fiber.

Yes, that makes a big difference for me. A high viz (Trijicon HD, Ameriglo Bold), fiber, or even a weaponlight activated to really make the sights stand out is necessary for me to shoot target focus effectively.

[Earlymonk]

Making an accurate shot requires a lot less on the sights than people think. It's mostly about trigger. All we are looking for is "enough" sights to make the hit.


For most pistols shots, people vastly overate the amount of aiming that is required. Rob Leatham made a video about that. Heck, if your index is good enough, you don’t need any sights, as Jim Wall of Milt Sparks demonstrates by winning a big match with no sights on his 1911.



Stoeger is the most credible proponent of target focused shooting and I don't think he has vision problems. He thinks it is a faster way to shoot without giving up much accuracy.


Indeed, and I am pretty sure Frank Proctor is not a hard front sight focus pistol shooter either. He speaks of seeing through the sights.



[assuming enough good reps]...your hands, arms and shoulders know how to align the handgun with where your eyes are looking, no matter if you can see the sights or not.
Dave


When the sights are used however, the degree in which they are utilized (sight focus vs target focus) can be best described as a continuum - NOT an absolute.



[Cooper] believed in something very like index shooting / target focus at the level of mastery.


There are a lot of benefits of training to shoot target focus that crossover into real world application, this being the primary one. I think most individuals in deadly force encounters tend to focus on the target anyway, which contributes to the poor hit ratio among law enforcement officers and concealed carry holders who are likely looking over their sights, having never practiced shooting with a target focus on the range and likely not even realize they are shooting target focused when under tremendous stress/pressure.

In my experience if you regularly train to bring your sights to your point of focus and shoot that way without transitioning your focal point back to your sights, you are going to be able to make accurate shots with a target focus sight picture under stress.

Late to this thread, but it's pretty cool that every single conclusion above is borne out by the optical study referenced HERE (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40981-Major-New-Study-How-Your-Eyes-Can-Cast-Your-Fate-In-A-Gunfight).

[Earlymonk]

And here's what I see as the "cruxy" bit of GJM's older thread from a few years back:




I credit my ability to shoot well with target focus to the extensive practice I've done with front sight focus. ...using a laser based cell phone app. ...I was developing a very strong kinesthetic index that presented the pistol to a particular spot in space with a high degree of precision.

...That kinesthetic index combined with a painted fiber optic front sight allowed me to see less than I thought I needed to in order to get the hits. Without the extensive dry work to get me the kinesthetic index, I don't think the target focused shooting would have been effective. I can see how target focused shooting may be a desired end state but you have to use a lot of front sight focused shooting to get there.


Either that, or take the short cut of learning on a RDS equipped pistol. That will force a great index and teach you how to target focus.


...a dot is like hiring a full time trigger control coach, because of the feedback it provides. It makes you even more visual and it is requires a perfect index.

[Duces Tecum]

Gunsite?

My 270 on 09/06/1986, and 250 on 10/25/1986. Cooper managed the instruction for both, but was busy elsewhere part of the time.

Good times.

[Duces Tecum]

Target focus?

Eighty percent of my dry fire is done from 8 ft (measured) on a 1/3rd scale target, so 8 yards effective. I have devolved into looking through the notch in the rear sight to see the target. As soon as the rear notch outlines what I want to hit, I press the trigger -- then confirm where the front sight is.

In effect, the target replaces the front sight during the presentation. At hammerfall the front sight is restored to its throne.

[Chris17404]

This discussion on target-focused shooting and not worrying about achieving a perfect sight picture has got me thinking. We've seen it stated in this thread that these techniques have allowed people to focus on what's most important: the trigger press. When the question of preferred sights is raised, then how about a sight system that let's a shooter "put that big white blurry dot on the target and make a solid trigger press"? Yes, I'm specifically thinking about XS Big Dot sights. I realize that's close to blasphemy around much of the Gunterwebs, but I'm curious what others may think in this specific application. Would a practitioner of target-focused shooting who has a very solid index on the draw benefit from XS sights? Especially if/when their eyesight isn't as strong as it used to be? From what I understand, the recommended application of XS Big Dot sights is: 0-10 yards - place the dot on the POI, 10-25 yards - place the top of the dot on the POI. Does that take away the worry about covering too much of the target? Worthy of consideration?

[45dotACP]

I had a buddy who did pretty well in IDPA with XS sights. Didn't seem to have trouble unless he shot at small steel targets.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

This discussion on target-focused shooting and not worrying about achieving a perfect sight picture has got me thinking. We've seen it stated in this thread that these techniques have allowed people to focus on what's most important: the trigger press. When the question of preferred sights is raised, then how about a sight system that let's a shooter "put that big white blurry dot on the target and make a solid trigger press"? Yes, I'm specifically thinking about XS Big Dot sights. I realize that's close to blasphemy around much of the Gunterwebs, but I'm curious what others may think in this specific application. Would a practitioner of target-focused shooting who has a very solid index on the draw benefit from XS sights? Especially if/when their eyesight isn't as strong as it used to be? From what I understand, the recommended application of XS Big Dot sights is: 0-10 yards - place the dot on the POI, 10-25 yards - place the top of the dot on the POI. Does that take away the worry about covering too much of the target? Worthy of consideration?

In my experience, a bright red fiber optic front sight with a wide, plain black notch rear sight is far superior to any big dot setup. You can use the fiber optic as effectively as the big dot for target focused shooting. But the FO is superior to any big dot for precision shots. While I hardly ever do it (because I hardly ever need to), I can tilt my head back slightly and look at the front sight through the near correction in my progressive lenses and see it crystal clear.

[HopetonBrown]

Yes, I'm specifically thinking about XS Big Dot sights.

It may seem counterintuitive to some, but if we look at the world's fastest and most accurate shooters, they're using skinny sights, not fat sights.

In fact, if we scan the gun shooting world for people of notoriety who extol the virtues of XS Big Dots on semi auto pistols, I can think of just 1 person.

With regard to age and poor vision, I don't think the 50+ guys still burning it down like Leatham, Jarrett or Miculek are using 180" front posts.

[HopetonBrown]

Didn't seem to have trouble unless he shot at small steel targets.



There's the rub.

Hitting an IDPA 8" circle from 5-10 yards isn't a particularly demanding accuracy issue.

There may be people like JodyH which can shoot to a high standard with XS, but my experience is that those people are extremely rare.

In a Frank Proctor class years ago he told a student who was struggling to hit the target at 10-15 yards to straight up ditch his Big Dots.

[YVK]

Would a practitioner of target-focused shooting who has a very solid index on the draw benefit from XS sights?


I would still want to have an option of a conventional front sight and sharp front sight picture. I am no Stoeger, I still go to a front sight focus on tough shots.

[45dotACP]

There's the rub.

Hitting an 8" circle from 5-10 yards isn't a particularly demanding accuracy issue.Once I learned you can hit basically anything inside 10 yards by just plopping the rear sight on it and shooting it sorta blew my mind.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk