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View Full Version : Unarmed Training for the old(ish) and broken(wish) fellow



TAZ
01-11-2020, 04:29 PM
I would like to get into some form of MA training routine, not only for the self defense aspect but also to offer up something different in the general fitness routine. Cardio and gym get old and boring for me. I have tried BJJ, but according to my orthopedist if I want to keep training he is going to have to do some cutting which is something that I would like to avoid. Anything out there that is maybe easier on the ole joints for us broke-ass fogies? I'm working the PT routines to get the joints stabilized and the surrounding areas strengthened up, but after that I'd like to try adding some defensive arts into the mix. Any thoughts?

Guerrero
01-11-2020, 05:50 PM
Take one of SouthNarc's Shivworks EWO classes.

Warped Mindless
01-11-2020, 06:34 PM
Boxing? A good coach and gym can tailor your training to whatever level you wish to go at. In know a 73 year old man who still trains. He doesn't spar but he kills the pads and bags.

Totem Polar
01-11-2020, 06:43 PM
Boxing? A good coach and gym can tailor your training to whatever level you wish to go at. In know a 73 year old man who still trains. He doesn't spar but he kills the pads and bags.

Yeah, boxing sometimes gets a bad rap, but Iíve got a good friend that I met through my gym that still trains 4xweekly, and heís 82.

Duces Tecum
01-11-2020, 06:50 PM
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) protects the carrying of a cane almost anywhere. Cane (stick) teachers can be found, especially in the immigrant communities, but there are options if no "pure cane" teacher is available. The Scottish Broadsword was trained by way of the single-stick, so if a Filipino escrima teacher can not be found, perhaps a Scottish Broadsword guy is available. If neither is found, Michael Janich has a DVD ("Martial Cane Concepts") that is a very practical alternative.

I placed the DVD last only because I believe teachers are better (over time) than any DVD. Teachers are able to adjust their syllabus to reflect the growth of their student(s). DVDs can't do that.

This is unsolicited, but if it were my problem I'd go with the Janich DVD first to see if defense-with-a-cane is for me. If it is, then I'd seek a skilled teacher.

Good luck, Taz.

Clay1
01-11-2020, 06:57 PM
Take one of SouthNarc's Shivworks EWO classes.

Those classes looked pretty intense to me. You think many 60 year old men could take that class? Guys in their 50s. I guess everyone's idea of old is on a sliding scale.

EPF
01-11-2020, 10:18 PM
Those classes looked pretty intense to me. You think many 60 year old men could take that class? Guys in their 50s. I guess everyone's idea of old is on a sliding scale.

There was a guy in his 70s in the EWO I attended. Itís definitely the exception rather than the rule but I think it depends on the individual. Itís a physical class but itís not as big of a deal as it seems sometimes on the internet.

Yung
01-11-2020, 10:19 PM
For a point of reference, David P. Yamane, a sociology professor at Wake Forest University, took ECQC last year at 50 years old if I'm not mistaken. In his lunchtime presentation last year in April, at the 22nd National Firearms Law Seminar, he mentioned that he was 42 years old when he picked up a gun for the first time eight years ago.

https://gunculture2point0.wordpress.com/2019/03/29/failing-in-craig-douglass-extreme-close-quarters-concepts-ecqc-course-part-1/
https://gunculture2point0.wordpress.com/2019/03/30/failing-craig-douglass-extreme-close-quarters-concepts-ecqc-course-part-2/

Scott Jedlinski is somewhere between 49 or 50 if I remember from seeing him last year in March, as he brings up his age to raise a good talking point in terms of not thinking it as a limitation to high performance. Him and his wife are also actively involved in jits if I'm not mistaken.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6bNxKVJIEi/

One of John Correia's martial arts instructors, Lawrence Robinson, is in his mid-fifties iirc. He is still plenty active too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69SIguFaRHw

SouthNarc
01-11-2020, 10:50 PM
I'm 52

Clay1
01-12-2020, 06:42 AM
I'm 52

There's hope for me yet. ;)

TQP
01-12-2020, 08:16 AM
I took my first ECQC at 52 and got my ass kicked by a 60 year old.

TAZ
01-12-2020, 03:32 PM
Thanks for the replies. I'm 50 so age and a fear of getting my ass handed to me aren't my limitations at this stage. Fitness level needs work, but the biggest limits are the mileage. I have a screwed up Achilles, partially torn ACL, torn MCL, a few lumbar disks that aren't happy, and a torn bicep insertion that all have their unique issues. Biggest PITA, which I assume I will have to get cut and fixed, is a torn labrum in my dominant shoulder. The labral tear is the biggest limit on contact type activity. Rehabbed once and was able to keep going till second injury put me into the "you can lead a normal life without surgery" or you can get cut on to keep going with the contact related stuff (BJJ included) Opted for the no surgery route for as long as possible. I'm doing the rehab work, cardio and strength training, but the whole gym thing is about as enjoyable to me as a root canal, so was looking for some options.

There is a boxing gym down the street from the house. Will swing by to see what the have to offer.

Cecil Burch
01-13-2020, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the replies. I'm 50 so age and a fear of getting my ass handed to me aren't my limitations at this stage. Fitness level needs work, but the biggest limits are the mileage. I have a screwed up Achilles, partially torn ACL, torn MCL, a few lumbar disks that aren't happy, and a torn bicep insertion that all have their unique issues. Biggest PITA, which I assume I will have to get cut and fixed, is a torn labrum in my dominant shoulder. The labral tear is the biggest limit on contact type activity. Rehabbed once and was able to keep going till second injury put me into the "you can lead a normal life without surgery" or you can get cut on to keep going with the contact related stuff (BJJ included) Opted for the no surgery route for as long as possible. I'm doing the rehab work, cardio and strength training, but the whole gym thing is about as enjoyable to me as a root canal, so was looking for some options.

There is a boxing gym down the street from the house. Will swing by to see what the have to offer.


Your body will far far more trauma doing boxing than BJJ. The only way to minimize that trauma is to do just solo work - pads, bags, shadowboxing, etc. - which has uses, but is not that great at prepping you for a self-defense scenario where you actually have to use your boxing. And even with solo work, you will be putting an inordinate amount of trauma into your wrists, elbows, and shoulders.

Any legitimate BJJ academy will accommodate someone who has physical issues. At our gym, we had a dentist who was in his late 50's when he started, and he got his black belt at 72. He has to watch how hard and often he rolls, but he can do it. You also can do positional sparring which mitigates a lot of the risk, and even at times if the injuries are flaring up, you can just drill, even at a light intensity. Any academy that already has a wide variety of students, to include older ones, will have no issue with someone going at their own needed pace.

AS well, Craig is an expert at making sure the intensity and pace of someone's personal experience in ECQC or EWO is safe while still being functionally useful. I do the same thing in my courses. I have had numerous students in their 70's, as well as small girls as young as 13, and I have never had a serious injury.

It can be done as long as you go to the right place and keep your own ego out of the way.

orionz06
01-13-2020, 11:14 AM
The one thing I hate the most about the promotion of the classes offered by the Shivworks guys is that people only post the evos. Some folks see a total of less than a few minutes of final evolution time, and that's optional and set up to what you can do and what you need. No one is better at pairing up the right people to get you the right stimulus to test your ability to perform the techniques taught.

In a 20 hour course (1200 minutes), you're seeing less than one half of a percent of the class in a highlight reel video.

Damn near any of these classes you'd go to now will have seasoned students who can safely challenge you and throttle up or down.

Guerrero
01-13-2020, 11:46 AM
No one is better at pairing up the right people to get you the right stimulus to test your ability to perform the techniques taught.

In a 20 hour course (1200 minutes), you're seeing less than one half of a percent of the class in a highlight reel video.

Damn near any of these classes you'd go to now will have seasoned students who can safely challenge you and throttle up or down.

Absolutely. The Shivworks classes are *so* much more than the evo's.

NETim
01-13-2020, 01:50 PM
I'm 52

But death fears you.

:)

BehindBlueI's
01-13-2020, 01:50 PM
I went to Shivworks ECQC while recovering from slipped discs in my neck. I sat out about half the evolution, but did the standing start and in the car ones.

I'm no expert, nor even a good amateur, but I was well satisfied I got a lot out of the class even with limitations.

Duces Tecum
01-13-2020, 02:59 PM
Fitness level needs work, but the biggest limits are the mileage.

Taz, regarding a fitness level, one has to start somewhere. I began my adult journey about ten or so years ago with "Convict Conditioning" (Paul "Coach" Wade). It's written to appeal to pubescent boys who think super-hero is a job description rather than an expression of character. But it begins each of the recommended six body weight exercises at the therapeutic level and over time, in ten appropriate steps, introduces the exerciser to serious levels of strength.

The ten sections of the pushup chapter, for example, are (01) against the wall pushups, (02) incline (hands on a table top) pushups, (03) kneeling pushups, (04) half pushups, (05) full pushups, (06) close pushups, (07) uneven pushups, (08) 1/2 one-arm pushups, (09) lever pushups, (10) one-arm pushups. The first level of the pushup lessons begins with the exerciser performing 10 against the wall pushups. The highest tier (i.e., the 10th level) involves 100 one-arm pushups (each side). But I suppose it's not really as hard as it might seem because you only have to do one set. <Grin>

The beginning recommended program is pushups / leg raises on Monday, followed by pullups and squats on Friday. You can see that both the exercises and the program start at a modest level. You progress at your own pace.

Time for a Caution: While the first book was splendid, its sequel was valueless. I bought it because I am both foolish and trusting, and was very much disappointed. Only the first book (below) is recommended here.

Link:
https://smile.amazon.com/Convict-Conditioning-Weakness-Survival-Strength/dp/1942812159/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2SQSCHESNZ3R6&keywords=convict+conditioning&qid=1578948631&sprefix=Convict+Conditioning%2Caps%2C911&sr=8-2

SeriousStudent
01-20-2020, 01:48 PM
Take one of SouthNarc's Shivworks EWO classes.

Could not not agree more. I finally got to take my first Shivworks EWO class this weekend. I'm 62, and was not the oldest person there. I was probably tied with another fellow in his 60's as having the lowest level of fitness, as he has an active case of asthma. I'm just old, fat and beat up. Plus, I have plenty of orthopedic issues from decades of injuries that did not always receive skillful treatment.

One of the folks in the class turns 74 this year. He participated in every evo, and did very well. He rang my bell in the final evo, and was awesome! :)

Every single person in the class was supportive and helpful, and was able to dial up and dial down the intensity as needed with each training partner. I could not have found a better group or better mentor to train with. I was plenty tired, believe me! But I left very enthusiastic, and even more committed to training and fitness.

If you have concerns, please feel free to reach out to me directly. You can call me and I'll be happy to answer any question you have.

You can do this.

runcible
01-20-2020, 08:03 PM
Could not not agree more. I finally got to take my first Shivworks EWO class this weekend. I'm 62, and was not the oldest person there. I was probably tied with another fellow in his 60's as having the lowest level of fitness, as he has an active case of asthma. I'm just old, fat and beat up. Plus, I have plenty of orthopedic issues from decades of injuries that did not always receive skillful treatment.

One of the folks in the class turns 74 this year. He participated in every evo, and did very well. He rang my bell in the final evo, and was awesome! :)

Every single person in the class was supportive and helpful, and was able to dial up and dial down the intensity as needed with each training partner. I could not have found a better group or better mentor to train with. I was plenty tired, believe me! But I left very enthusiastic, and even more committed to training and fitness.

If you have concerns, please feel free to reach out to me directly. You can call me and I'll be happy to answer any question you have.

You can do this.

Having been following that class through FB, that looked like a really good bunch of folks to train with, and with some great pair-ups. It sounds like you had the best of times, and I'm glad for that! :)

SeriousStudent
01-20-2020, 08:09 PM
Having been following that class through FB, that looked like a really good bunch of folks to train with, and with some great pair-ups. It sounds like you had the best of times, and I'm glad for that! :)

Thanks very much. It really was a great time. This morning was a ibuprofen/coffee sort of day, but nothing I could not handle. :)

We had a super class. And a lot of folks are going to be back for Tac-Con in two months, so we'll have a chance to get together for a cup of coffee and see how our training has progressed.

That's one of the things I love about the training community - it really is a community. It's not just show up at a class and see the usual suspects. But you make great friends that want to help you, and find mentors that deeply care about your motivation and success.

Cecil Burch
01-21-2020, 10:22 AM
Could not not agree more. I finally got to take my first Shivworks EWO class this weekend. I'm 62, and was not the oldest person there. I was probably tied with another fellow in his 60's as having the lowest level of fitness, as he has an active case of asthma. I'm just old, fat and beat up. Plus, I have plenty of orthopedic issues from decades of injuries that did not always receive skillful treatment.

One of the folks in the class turns 74 this year. He participated in every evo, and did very well. He rang my bell in the final evo, and was awesome! :)

Every single person in the class was supportive and helpful, and was able to dial up and dial down the intensity as needed with each training partner. I could not have found a better group or better mentor to train with. I was plenty tired, believe me! But I left very enthusiastic, and even more committed to training and fitness.

If you have concerns, please feel free to reach out to me directly. You can call me and I'll be happy to answer any question you have.

You can do this.


I have been trying to convince you of that for years and trying to needle you into one of mine when I am there! I am glad you took the plunge with this and Larry's.

RJ
01-21-2020, 10:33 AM
Sounds like there is hope for me (age 60) one of these days. :)

Totem Polar
01-21-2020, 10:39 AM
That's one of the things I love about the training community - it really is a community. It's not just show up at a class and see the usual suspects. But you make great friends that want to help you, and find mentors that deeply care about your motivation and success.

Briefly: this. You learn a lot about someoneís character, heart, humor, and kindness by banging in FoF type drills with them. Iím in fairly regular text with a number of folks that I met through ECQC/EWO/IAJJ work, and I can tell you that they have proven to be the types who will get your back when you need a hand. Iím pretty damn fond of both the student and instructor cadre at this point.

SeriousStudent
01-21-2020, 05:52 PM
I have been trying to convince you of that for years and trying to needle you into one of mine when I am there! I am glad you took the plunge with this and Larry's.

Which is why you are a Professor and why I am a student. :)

It seemed like every year I would either have a broken limb (not kidding) or have another class already scheduled. I remember hobbling into your class for the first time on a cane, nursing a torn Achilles in my left foot. Then the next year I had a broken right ankle and right wrist. That deprived me of your class, a Hackathorn pistol class and a Haught shotgun class that year. :(

I'm trying to get free for your Oklahoma class next month, but I have to get two new minions up to speed for that to happen. If I do, I'll bring a giant Bag o' Guns (trademark). I had two small duffle bags of stuff for Craig to fondle Sunday morning before class. I gots me some new stuff I think you'll like.

SeriousStudent
01-21-2020, 05:53 PM
Sounds like there is hope for me (age 60) one of these days. :)

Do it, young fella. We'll talk more in March.

Fletch Fuller
01-24-2020, 12:39 PM
I'm 52

Just a Baby.:cool:

Deaf Smith
02-03-2020, 10:57 AM
Well I'm new to this forum but not new to martial arts. 40+ years.

Yep... 65... hip replacement...foot surgery... time catches up.

But, you can still do quite well. I just finished my workout at Planet Fitness.

I do the cardo in their 30 min Cardo room. They let me shadow box.

So what I do is using the steppers I do a step routine then when both feet are on the floor I do, what Bruce Lee would call a two timing.

I do a high block and cross simultaneously followed by a shovel and then hook.

I cross back over the stepper and do the same with the opposite hand. Repeat till the green light they have goes red (3 min.)

Then I do a low block and 'tiger paw' simultaneously. I follow with a backfist and overhand. Again repeat on the other side of the stepper and do this till the green light goes red.

Then I do a low elbow block followed by a cross and hook. Repeat on the other side of the stepper and again... till the light goes red.

I have about a dozen of these combos I use on the stepper. Other times I practice bobs and weaves, other times dodging and slipping.

Other times footwork (shuffling and sliding)...

Just lots of good cardio while shadowboxing.

txdpd
02-04-2020, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the replies. I'm 50 so age and a fear of getting my ass handed to me aren't my limitations at this stage. Fitness level needs work, but the biggest limits are the mileage. I have a screwed up Achilles, partially torn ACL, torn MCL, a few lumbar disks that aren't happy, and a torn bicep insertion that all have their unique issues. Biggest PITA, which I assume I will have to get cut and fixed, is a torn labrum in my dominant shoulder. The labral tear is the biggest limit on contact type activity. Rehabbed once and was able to keep going till second injury put me into the "you can lead a normal life without surgery" or you can get cut on to keep going with the contact related stuff (BJJ included) Opted for the no surgery route for as long as possible. I'm doing the rehab work, cardio and strength training, but the whole gym thing is about as enjoyable to me as a root canal, so was looking for some options.

There is a boxing gym down the street from the house. Will swing by to see what the have to offer.

You read like a bad fall waiting to happen. Even if you have the foot speed to catch yourself if you slip or stumble, do you have the eccentric strength and stability to stop yourself? A big chunk of the non-contact injuries out there are really contact injuries with the ground via gravity.

Outside of a fall assessment from a PT and an all clear with a doctor, at least with BJJ you can start on the ground and negate some fall risk.

TAZ
02-04-2020, 03:27 PM
You read like a bad fall waiting to happen. Even if you have the foot speed to catch yourself if you slip or stumble, do you have the eccentric strength and stability to stop yourself? A big chunk of the non-contact injuries out there are really contact injuries with the ground via gravity.

Outside of a fall assessment from a PT and an all clear with a doctor, at least with BJJ you can start on the ground and negate some fall risk.

LOL.. I'm a wreck, but not there... yet anyway. Certain things are just beat up more than normal. I have full ROM and stability, so its not like Im crumbling. By the discussions here it seems that I may need to check my ego a lot more and not push as hard and find a gym or time that has a more diverse students The classes I was working in had lots of MMA types who were doing their stint at BJJ, so they were pretty aggressive. Plus I was going 3-5 days a week. Looking back it was overkill.

I'm thinking that for the next few months I will continue doing the gym routine and build up my fitness and strength levels before trying anything contact related. Work up from 1 day a week into 2 and so forth. Maybe I can find a happy medium where I have sufficient rest days to not ache and cause permanent issues but still get some training in.

Thanks again

Deaf Smith
02-12-2020, 09:21 PM
Hallelujah!!!

An old friend who runs a dojo (we uses to work out together many years ago) now lets me play on Wednesday nights. That's adults night. While it's traditional Taekwondo he also has lots of bags and we use the bags and focus mitts. And he lets me do my own style, which is more Krav Maga and JKD than anything else! And he has lots of PT at the first half of the class! So much so I had to take a breather the first night... came home drenched in sweat.

I already do Wing Chung KF on Sundays with another school who's teacher is also an old friend that also worked out with me in TKD along time ago (in fact all three of us worked out together ... 30 or so years ago.)

Add that to my Planet Fitness workouts and I think I am on the way to something... dunno if it's fitness or a heart attack yet.

Chain
02-12-2020, 09:32 PM
TAZ, I've got some joint issues that have persisted for a while and I'm getting to the point where I need to have them looked at. The biggest offender currently seems to the the AC joint if my google fu is working correctly, but also have a knee thing, a rib thing, a wrist thing, and a hip thing. :cool:

Not sure if I should try the orthopedic doctor route first, a physical therapist, a chiropractor, or what?

TAZ
02-13-2020, 07:43 AM
Sorry to hear youíre having issues. Orthopedic issues are complex to self diagnose. Not that others are easy peasy by any stretch.

For things other than sprains and such, Iíve always gone to a doctor first. Sux if your insurance requires referrals cause you have to do the GP thing before the specialist, but itís important to get the correct diagnosis for a fix to work. Iíve gone to PT and chiropractor. They have done wonders on me and have kept me away from needing to be cut on. However, Iím not sure Iíd go to them for diagnostic work.

Good luck.