Legacy Sports to import German Sigs

[cornstalker]

Wierd

https://www.shootingwire.com/releases/bde412a9-c218-4cbe-bc6f-651950378725

[Tod-13]

Why "weird"? With all the complaints I read about Sig Arms products, seems like a natural market to serve.

[OlongJohnson]

Is this because the German government has had enough of Cohen's antics, too?

One could do worse than Howa rifles and German Sig pistols.

[MattyD380]

Hmm. Interesting.

You think we’ll get anything besides 210s and X5s? What models do they even make over there?

I wonder how this works with Exeter... why didn’t they just use them as the importer?

[cornstalker]

Hmm. Interesting.

You think we’ll get anything besides 210s and X5s? What models do they even make over there?

I wonder how this works with Exeter... why didn’t they just use them as the importer?

Agreed. That's why I think it's weird.

[Shoresy]

What's the quality like on modern German Sigs? German Sigs have been a go-to because they were typically synonymous with "pre-Cohen"; have they seen the same "cost improvement" that US-made Sigs have since he took over?

[OlongJohnson]

I wonder how this works with Exeter... why didn’t they just use them as the importer?

It would not surprise me if the German government has said no more exports to Sig US, on account of Cohen having been convicted of trafficking guns to Columbia. I'm sure there are some public documents somewhere that would confirm or deny the hypothesis.

Maybe P30 is aware.

[ralph]

What's the quality like on modern German Sigs? German Sigs have been a go-to because they were typically synonymous with "pre-Cohen"; have they seen the same "cost improvement" that US-made Sigs have since he took over?

That’s a good question..Just because it says “made in Germany “ on it, doesn’t mean the quality will be any better than U.S. made Sigs, The Germans are quite capable of making turds as well..

[ccmdfd]

What's the quality like on modern German Sigs? German Sigs have been a go-to because they were typically synonymous with "pre-Cohen"; have they seen the same "cost improvement" that US-made Sigs have since he took over?

Great question indeed!
I don't know that they'd be any better either.

cc

[Greg]

I’m hopeful.

Sig Exeter is a disgrace.

[Tod-13]

Hmm. Interesting.

You think we’ll get anything besides 210s and X5s? What models do they even make over there?

I wonder how this works with Exeter... why didn’t they just use them as the importer?

I figured Sig USA sees imports as negatively impacting their business model--I assume the import would have less of a mark up for Sig USA and hence less profit, as well as making support/repair more problematic.

[EVP]

I always wanted a German x5 tactical, and was sad when they stopped being available.

Might get another chance.

[call_me_ski]

I figured Sig USA sees imports as negatively impacting their business model--I assume the import would have less of a mark up for Sig USA and hence less profit, as well as making support/repair more problematic.


I think Sig Sauer USA lost their ability to import guns from Germany due to the guns they sold to Colombia. Cohen was briefly detained last time he was in Germany related to that. I also do think that Sig cares too much over small volume imports and they are trimming back on the classic series regardless. The MCX and P320 are the future for Sig USA.

[Polecat]

Hopefully SPC 2022

[MattyD380]

I figured Sig USA sees imports as negatively impacting their business model--I assume the import would have less of a mark up for Sig USA and hence less profit, as well as making support/repair more problematic.

I would have assumed that Sig USA would have had some kind exclusive deal on the imports to keep the money/control in their court. But who knows. Maybe that expired. Maybe the aforementioned shadiness mitigated such arrangements. Maybe this is all pure speculation and I have no idea what I’m talking about.

[MattyD380]

I looked at sigsauer.de...

A lot of the same stuff we have here: P238s, 1911s, Legions, 10mm P220s.

Could be that stuff is actually made in here, and shipped over there. But it looks like their P210 is definitely different from what’s made here (ie, it’s the “Legend” we got a few years ago). Wonder if they make P229s and P226s over there?

[MGW]

I looked at sigsauer.de...

A lot of the same stuff we have here: P238s, 1911s, Legions, 10mm P220s.

Could be that stuff is actually made in here, and shipped over there. But it looks like their P210 is definitely different from what’s made here (ie, it’s the “Legend” we got a few years ago). Wonder if they make P229s and P226s over there?

I was just thinking I wonder if they still make 228's over there?

[MattyD380]

I was just thinking I wonder if they still make 228's over there?

I wish. I wonder if they still have the slide folding machines?

[Alpha Sierra]

I looked at sigsauer.de... Could be that stuff is actually made in here, and shipped over there.

Highly likely some are. Unthinkable 20 years ago, Honda and Toyota in the US export some of their vehicles to Japan.

The Honda/Acura NSX (the corporate flaship) is made nowhere but in Marysville, Ohio and sold world wide.

[TheNewbie]

I was just thinking I wonder if they still make 228's over there?

I think 228s are no longer made anywhere. That’s based of what could be a fault memory of something I read long ago.

[MGW]

I think 228s are no longer made anywhere. That’s based of what could be a fault memory of something I read long ago.


Kind of what I figured. But a guy can dream.

[P30]

It would not surprise me if the German government has said no more exports to Sig US, on account of Cohen having been convicted of trafficking guns to Columbia. I'm sure there are some public documents somewhere that would confirm or deny the hypothesis.

Maybe P30 is aware.
I don't know much about SIG Sauer because I prefer HK.

So you wonder why SIG Sauer is going to export some pistols to the US via Legacy Sports and not via SIG US?

As far as I know, the owners of SIG Sauer are Michael Lüke and Thomas Ortmeier, two Germans. Cohen is their manager for the US.
German export authorities don't allow weapons exports to Columbia. Lüke and Cohen were as accuseds in a court of law in Germany (https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/waffenproduzent-us-chef-von-sig-sauer-wegen-illegaler-waffenexporte-vor-bewaehrungsstrafe/24040146.html?ticket=ST-781635-tToWQBtzgweSnwj4CzEp-ap5) in February last year. I don't know if there has been a verdict meanwhile.

According to this article (https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article157227431/Pistolen-Produzent-setzt-wieder-auf-deutschen-Markt.html) from 2016, there is another aspect to it: SIG Sauer tries to sell more weapons to German military and police. They increased the number of employees in Germany. But I know, meanwhile they've lost several public tenders for German police pistols to HK (e.g. Bavaria and Berlin ordered the HK SFP9 for their police). So maybe SIG Sauer has some free capacities in Germany, now?

I got the impression, most of you don't like Mr. Cohen and doubt the quality of SIG US products. But I've bought a BCM Recce (AR15) a few month ago here in Germany (it's a bit modified due to German weapons law, the BCG has been replaced). Today I've shot it for the first time with a rifle scope (Kahles K16i). Precision was better than 1.5 MOA with 10 shots. I like it very much. It's light, reliable and accurate. You US guys can build great AR15 rifles.

PS:
JP bolt carrier groups are available in Germany. I'm considering to buy a second BCM upper with a JP BCG. What do you think about its quality? I suppose, the BCM bolt carrier group is not available here (for civilians) because it's a full-auto BCG.

[Greg]

Sig USA products don’t suck because they are made in the US.

They suck because of garbage parts, bad QC, and an absurdly huge product lineup. Prices have not come down to reflect the use of garbage parts either.

Indian MIM, for fudds.

[P30]

I don't know if there has been a verdict meanwhile.
I've searched for the judgement and found this (https://www.aufschrei-waffenhandel.de/fileadmin/dokumente/Daten_Fakten/unternehmen/20190421_DEAL-STA-MIT-SIG-SAUER-MANAGERN__JG.pdf): Lüke and Cohen have been convicted to suspended sentences and fines (10 to 18 months, 600,000 euros per person). More than 11 million euros are to be seized from the SIG Sauer group.

[call_me_ski]

I wish. I wonder if they still have the slide folding machines?

As of about 7 years ago the Machines were still there but dormant outside of small orders for contract maintenance. I doubt they still have them as the German side of Sig is barely existent anymore. I think most of the guns being made there are coming from the master shop and some classic series guns.

[OlongJohnson]

It's been well-explained that the milled slides are superior. The frames last longer with them, even when compared to CDO-schedule maintenance of the breech blocks.

I'm sure it would be possible to mill some more steel out of the milled slides to lighten them, but if I had to choose, I'd rather see improved QC on tolerances, surface finishes (rails in particular) and deburring (rails in particular). Also, attention to dimension stackup as it affects lockup.

[John Hearne]

The interesting question is whether Sig Germany retained the ability to make small parts in-house or whether they'll buy from Sig USA. FML.

[P30]

The interesting question is whether Sig Germany retained the ability to make small parts in-house
Some of the best German IPSC shooters use a SIG Sauer X-Five (e.g. Heribert Bettermann (http://www.heribert-bettermann.de/html/index.php?id=betze02-home&no_cache=1&L=0), multiple world champion). It's made in Germany and I think, it's very durable.

But in the club, where I train shooting, even more IPSC shooters use an SVI Infinity 2011. Not me, didn't want to pay so much money, yet. SVI 2011s are extremely expensive, here.

And since this thread needs more pics: This is from Mr. Bettermann's homepage. He became IPSC world champion in 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_IPSC_Handgun_World_Shoot#Production) (Production Super Senior). Probably with an X-Five like this:
http://www.heribert-bettermann.de/html/fileadmin/user_upload/betze06/09b57e711d.jpg
And this is an Infinity 2011, which I find very nice (but I don't have to own everything):

47088

[OlongJohnson]

I'm looking forward to seeing some P210s that aren't embarrasing. The US-built guns make me sad.

[GOTURBACK]

This .... We are happy to know our products for the US market are finally back in the hands of a strong and focused importer and supplier.