Defense load recommendations for 38 Special 4" Service Revolver

[4given]

My wife is a revolver girl. No semi autos for her. Hard to rack the slide, brass down the front of her blouse, etc -etc. I have not been able to change her mind.

For various reasons she has settled on carrying a S&W M638 and keeps a S&W M64 with a 4" BBL in her bedside dresser drawer. She shoots both pretty darn well.

While there are a lot of recommendations for 38 snubby ammo, you don't see many tests or recommendations for defensive loads for 38's with a 4" barrel.

She is currently using the Remington Golden Saber 125gr +P (GS38SB) which has been discontinued I believe.

Any recommendations for a new load for her M64 4"?

[blues]

RA38B Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr +P

[JAH 3rd]

RA38B Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr +P

Ditto

[Totem Polar]

RA38B Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr +P

That’s a solid option. The Speer Gold Dot 135 +P load is another option. Around the house, I’m not opposed to going old school with the “FBI” load (158gr LSWCHP+P) in a 4" gun, myself. I prefer Remington’s version. I’ve also had 4" revolvers on the nightstand loaded with buffalo bore’s hot version of the same thing but, as I’ve mellowed with age, I’ve come to regard the buffalo bore as overkill from a 4" gun. The FBI load still looks good for situations not involving a lot of glass or metal. JMO.

[4given]

RA38B Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr +P

Is this essentially the same loading as the PDX1 130gr +P civilian load?

[blues]

Is this essentially the same loading as the PDX1 130gr +P civilian load?

That is my understanding as I recall.

[03RN]

Is this essentially the same loading as the PDX1 130gr +P civilian load?

I believe the pdx1 is like 50fps slower.

[03RN]

Winchester ranger bonded is my go to round for .38s.

My second choice would be the speer 135gr +p, then the remington golden sabers.

[revchuck38]

IME, 4” revolvers usually shoot to point of aim with 158-grain loads. My choice is Remington‘s version of the FBI load.

[FNFAN]

Underwood loads a Gold Dot JHP 125gr to an advertised 1200 fps. It's very accurate in my Model 10 and the Gold Dot bullet in 9mm works very well at that speed. For my 642 I use the GD 135gr as the Underwood buck's too much.

[jtcarm]

Federal GM wadcutters.

Shoots to POA, easy recoil, and cuts a .36 channel, every time.

I carry the Rem 158 SWCHP +P for my reloads.

As much as I like them, full WCs aren’t easy to load under duress.

[Velo Dog]

Several good options have been mentioned, but she could just use the Golden Sabers in both revolvers to keep things simple.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131103110657/http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/38special.htm

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html

[spyderco monkey]

Underwood loads a Gold Dot JHP 125gr to an advertised 1200 fps. It's very accurate in my Model 10 and the Gold Dot bullet in 9mm works very well at that speed. For my 642 I use the GD 135gr as the Underwood buck's too much.

+ .38 to this.

For a 4", 35oz .38 +p, Underwood would the one.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-p-125-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785726955577

Some chrono info from the reviews:

https://i.ibb.co/GJYJcTJ/Screen-Shot-2020-01-09-at-3-43-21-PM.png

That puts it comfortably within 9mm 124gr Gold Dot velocity range.

Here's a test through 4 layers denim / ballistic gel out of the LCR (best gel test I could find for the load):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ULPEMwQIo

[Velo Dog]

She is currently using the Remington Golden Saber 125gr +P (GS38SB) which has been discontinued I believe.

I think it has just been repackaged for Remington's Ultimate Defense Handgun line of ammuntion.

https://www.remington.com/ammunition/handgun/ultimate-defense-handgun-loads

Although there is both compact and full-size offerings, the same Golden Saber bullet is used and the velocities appear to be very similar if not identical.

[Duelist]

There is absolutely nothing wrong, and a whole lot right, with a .38 a person will actually shoot and carry vs anything else that they won’t.

Ammo choices don’t have to be complicated. Something that shoots to POA in the J and doesn’t kick too much, like a 148gr FGMM wadcutter, backed up by a speed strip or two of pointier reloads such as the 110gr Hornady Critical Defense. Something that hits to POA in the 4”, whether the same or different from the J, and practice loads for both, (which can just be 130gr FMJ American Eagle) and you’re done.

[4given]

Several good options have been mentioned, but she could just use the Golden Sabers in both revolvers to keep things simple.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131103110657/http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/38special.htm

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html


This is what we are currently doing. Looking for alternatives once we run out of the
GS 125

[4given]

I think it has just been repackaged for Remington's Ultimate Defense Handgun line of ammuntion.

https://www.remington.com/ammunition/handgun/ultimate-defense-handgun-loads

Although there is both compact and full-size offerings, the same Golden Saber bullet is used and the velocities appear to be very similar if not identical.

Yep looks to be loaded to the same specs

[Wayne Dobbs]

The Remington FBI load (R38S12) has worked really well for a really long time. It's not great on hard barriers, but does work well on side to side "money shots" on bipedal threats and the classically expected frontal shots, too. My second choice would be the Speer 135 GDHP +P.

[deputyG23]

IME, 4” revolvers usually shoot to point of aim with 158-grain loads. My choice is Remington‘s version of the FBI load.
Mine as well.
All of my .38s except for the 442 utilize this load when on defense duty.

[4given]

+ .38 to this.

For a 4", 35oz .38 +p, Underwood would the one.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-p-125-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785726955577

Some chrono info from the reviews:

https://i.ibb.co/GJYJcTJ/Screen-Shot-2020-01-09-at-3-43-21-PM.png

That puts it comfortably within 9mm 124gr Gold Dot velocity range.

Here's a test through 4 layers denim / ballistic gel out of the LCR (best gel test I could find for the load):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ULPEMwQIo

That is smoking right along! Thanks for showing me that!

[HCM]

IME, 4” revolvers usually shoot to point of aim with 158-grain loads. My choice is Remington‘s version of the FBI load.

I would recommend the old FBI /Chicago PD load in the 4”. I think Remington and Federal are the only two still loading it.

My Agency issues /requires the 135 grain Gold dot +p in our remaining J frames. The Gold dot and win Ranger are good snubbing loads and will work in the 4” in a pinch.

[Totem Polar]

The Remington FBI load (R38S12) has worked really well for a really long time. It's not great on hard barriers, but does work well on side to side "money shots" on bipedal threats and the classically expected frontal shots, too. My second choice would be the Speer 135 GDHP +P.

Cool. End of thread, with plenty of time left to sweep up, lock up, and make happy hour at the craft cocktail place downtown. :)

[revchuck38]

Cool. End of thread, with plenty of time left to sweep up, lock up, and make happy hour at the craft cocktail place downtown. :)

Cool - you’re buying, right? :p

[Baldanders]

I feel like the 4" barrel usually gets .38 +p into the velocity range were many options work great. In general, I would be fine with any jhp/sjhp/copper hp at 125 grains and up, the already oft-mentioned 135 grain Speer being what I would grab now, as it is my carry load for my 640. I wouldn't feel like I was giving up much with 125 grain Speer or even 125 grain Remington UMC SJHP. 129 grain Hydrashok would be last place since it tends to underexpand or underpenetrate if it does expand. Too bad, because it is mild and quite accurate in my 2" 640, at least.

[03RN]

I wish i bought some of those $15/100 boxes of 100 sjhp 125+p at walmart. They always shot well and performance in 4" barrels always seemed ok.

[Chuck Haggard]

RA38B Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr +P

Over the past few years Winchester's QC has sucked, big time. I no longer recommend their ammo.


The 135hr +p Gold Dot does work really well from 3 and 4" barrels though.

[blues]

Over the past few years Winchester's QC has sucked, big time. I no longer recommend their ammo.


The 135hr +p Gold Dot does work really well from 3 and 4" barrels though.

Thanks, Chuck. Yeah, I remember the reports.

I checked mine over pretty well and I still have quite a bit left...so, I don't think I'm changing just yet. Running it in my 642.

[4given]

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I’m leaning towards switching over to the Speer GD 135 +P as it seems to be widely used by LE, it has been tested and recommended by Doc, and is available in the 50 round LE packaging.

I did see some LE boxes of 50 Golden Saber 125 gr +P (GSSBB). I’m wondering if this is the same stuff as the GSSB she is using now? I could stock up on those and be good for a while longer but my guess is they are phasing these out as well.

Has anybody seen any real testing of the Golden Saber 38 125gr +P? It seems to do well compared to the Speer 135 + P and the Winchester 130 +P in the lucky gunner tests an YouTube videos but we know those results are always suspect.

Thanks for all the input and discussion.

[Baldanders]

I would recommend the old FBI /Chicago PD load in the 4”. I think Remington and Federal are the only two still loading it.

My Agency issues /requires the 135 grain Gold dot +p in our remaining J frames. The Gold dot and win Ranger are good snubbing loads and will work in the 4” in a pinch.

For those going for the "FBI" load, keep in mind it seems like all tests show the Federal stuff doesn't expand, while the Remington does.


As for Lucky Gunner tests-- they seem like very nice folks, and I like their videos, but it's been said here before, and it will be said here again: CLEAR GEL IS NOT A GOOD SIMULATION OF HOW ROUNDS PERFORM IN FLESH. ONLY CALIBRATED BALLISTIC GELATIN HAS PROVEN VALIDITY IN TESTING BULLET PERFORMANCE.

Hell, my Redneck Ballistic Testing protocol has more validity than clear gel. (There is a reason why the Schwartz uses water for his calculations) And I am not basing my ammo choices too heavily on my own "testing." (Anything HP that doesn't expand is disqualified, unless I want a non-expanding HP, which I prefer in .32, and I like 3 jugs or more penetration, since most expanding .38 loads can achieve this)

[4given]

As for Lucky Gunner tests-- they seem like very nice folks, and I like their videos, but it's been said here before, and it will be said here again: CLEAR GEL IS NOT A GOOD SIMULATION OF HOW ROUNDS PERFORM IN FLESH. ONLY CALIBRATED BALLISTIC GELATIN HAS PROVEN VALIDITY IN TESTING BULLET PERFORMANCE.


Agreed

[LorenzoS]

Any thoughts on the 130 grain HST Micro? It did well in the Lucky Gunner test but not sure how reliable that is.

[03RN]

Any thoughts on the 130 grain HST Micro? It did well in the Lucky Gunner test but not sure how reliable that is.

Tokarev did not have very good results in organic gel, especially with auto glass.

Luckygunner used clear gel

[Tokarev]

Tokarev did not have very good results in organic gel, especially with auto glass.

Luckygunner used clear gel

Not from a 4" barrel but here's the thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29816-38-Special-HST-130gr-P-in-Organic-Gel&highlight=federal

[Nightvisionary]

Tokarev did not have very good results in organic gel, especially with auto glass.

Luckygunner used clear gel

Those looked like pretty decent results to me from a sub 2 inch barrel 38 special. The vast majority of us will never need to shoot through auto glass so I don't see that as an issue for a pocket CCW.

[4given]

Well I ordered a box of 50 Speer 135 gr +P short BBL to try in Wifey's revolvers. If it shoots to her fixed sights we will switch.

Thanks for all the advice!

[03RN]

Those looked like pretty decent results to me from a sub 2 inch barrel 38 special. The vast majority of us will never need to shoot through auto glass so I don't see that as an issue for a pocket CCW.

I spend enough time in and around vehicles to be a factor in my decision making. That and its been said that auto glass actually makes a good stand in for bone.

[DocGKR]

Some good recommendations above.

From a 4" I'd probably be OK with: Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P and the Winchester Bonded 130 gr +P, as well the Rem 158 gr LSWCHP +P and maybe the Hornady 110 gr Critical Defense.

[4given]

Some good recommendations above.

From a 4" I'd probably be OK with: Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P and the Winchester Bonded 130 gr +P, as well the Rem 158 gr LSWCHP +P and maybe the Hornady 110 gr Critical Defense.

Thanks Doc. I just ordered an LE box of the Speer.

I think I'm gonna switch her over to wadcutters in her M638 snub. I recall that there may be some advantage to using a round that utilizing a hard cast wadcutter? Looking at trying DoubleTap Defense 38 Special 148gr WC. It uses a hardcast bullet and it is available at my LGS.

I know most folks here use the Federal Match but it is very hard to find right now.

[camsdaddy]

Thanks Doc. I just ordered an LE box of the Speer.

I think I'm gonna switch her over to wadcutters in her M638 snub. I recall that there may be some advantage to using a round that utilizing a hard cast wadcutter? Looking at trying DoubleTap Defense 38 Special 148gr WC. It uses a hardcast bullet and it is available at my LGS.

I know most folks here use the Federal Match but it is very hard to find right now.

I have loaded hard cast but never bought any commercially loaded hard cast.

I wonder the benefit of hard cast vs the federal match which I assume is hbwc? I think the hbwc would have a sharper cutting edge but I'm sure each have benefits. I carry the federal match and shoot precision delta wadcutters at the range.

[4given]

I have loaded hard cast but never bought any commercially loaded hard cast.

I wonder the benefit of hard cast vs the federal match which I assume is hbwc? I think the hbwc would have a sharper cutting edge but I'm sure each have benefits. I carry the federal match and shoot precision delta wadcutters at the range.

I'm thinking a hard cast wadcutter with a flat 100% meplat (not beveled) would be sharper and would not deform as easily. From Doc's 38 vs 380 bug gun sticky post:

"When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better... Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)"

[the Schwartz]

I'm thinking a hard cast wadcutter with a flat 100% meplat (not beveled) would be sharper and would not deform as easily. From Doc's 38 vs 380 bug gun sticky post:

"When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better... Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)"

How about something like this— http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_338&product_id=555

47682

Assuming that the advertised velocity of 800 fps* out of a 4'' barrel holds for one's own revolver, the DT hardcast wadcutter (21BHN) should offer penetration between 18 and 22 inches according to the various predictive models.

D = 0.3575'', M = 148 gr., V = 800 fps
Q-model = 18.31 inches
mTHOR model = 20.52 inches
MacPherson model = 21.99 inches

*If the .38 Special 148-grain hardcast wadcutter has to pass through a barrier before striking a human body, there should be a commensurate loss of penetration depth in accordance with the velocity lost due to the barrier encountered.

[4given]

How about something like this— http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_338&product_id=555

47682

Assuming that the advertised velocity of 800 fps* out of a 4'' barrel holds for one's own revolver, the DT hardcast wadcutter (21BHN) should offer penetration between 18 and 22 inches according to the various predictive models.

D = 0.3575'', M = 148 gr., V = 800 fps
Q-model = 18.31 inches
mTHOR model = 20.52 inches
MacPherson model = 21.99 inches

*If the .38 Special 148-grain hardcast wadcutter has to pass through a barrier before striking a human body, there should be a commensurate loss of penetration depth in accordance with the velocity lost due to the barrier encountered.

Thanks bro! I’ve been looking at this one as it is available locally but by all accounts the recoil is a little stiff for the wife’s M638 Airweight. I ordered some Speer 135 +P. I think we will give that a go in her M64 and M638.

[the Schwartz]

Thanks bro! I’ve been looking at this one as it is available locally but by all accounts the recoil is a little stiff for the wife’s M638 Airweight. I ordered some Speer 135 +P. I think we will give that a go in her M64 and M638.

That makes sense. If she can find something that is comfortable for her to fire from her M638, that is probably the best way to go. No point in challenging her any more than she needs to be should she be faced with the prospect of having to fire the gun under duress.

[DocGKR]

On a full wadcutter, the important factor is the sharpness of the leading edge of the projectile, not the hardness of the lead--most lead wadcutters are too rounded/beveled in this area.

[camsdaddy]

On a full wadcutter, the important factor is the sharpness of the leading edge of the projectile, not the hardness of the lead--most lead wadcutters are too rounded/beveled in this area.
Ive found the dewc/cast wadcutters are more rounded. The hbwc wadcutters for the most part appear to have sharper edges.

[officerdave]

Some good recommendations above.

From a 4" I'd probably be OK with: Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P and the Winchester Bonded 130 gr +P, as well the Rem 158 gr LSWCHP +P and maybe the Hornady 110 gr Critical Defense.

Doc

Do you have any thoughts on using BB 158 gr. standard FBI load in a 4" revolver. I have shot that and the +P version , but wonder if the standard pressure version, works well enough as a self defense round.

thanks

Officer Dave

[DocGKR]

Have not tested it.

However, for defensive use, I prefer to rely on loads from vendors with large USG contracts, with vetted inspection and testing processes...