Our new and improved Iraq discussion thread!

[LittleLebowski]

Iraq consulate in Detroit to accept condolences on behalf of Iranian general killed in US airstrike

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/01/07/iraqi-consulate-in-detroit-to-accept-condolences-on-behalf-of-iranian-general-killed-in-us-airstrike/

[45dotACP]

So that's where we mail the box of dildos?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[blues]

Oh, that's just the information I was looking for this morning...

[Mike C]

So that's where we mail the box of dildos?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I'll just leave this here: https://www.skdtac.com/skd-bag-of-dicks-p/skd.808.htm

[Guerrero]

Iraq consulate in Detroit to accept condolences on behalf of Iranian general killed in US airstrike

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/01/07/iraqi-consulate-in-detroit-to-accept-condolences-on-behalf-of-iranian-general-killed-in-us-airstrike/

Sock puppet for The Babylon Bee?

[LittleLebowski]

I'll just leave this here: https://www.skdtac.com/skd-bag-of-dicks-p/skd.808.htm

SKDTac is a friend of PF and as such, PF endorses their products.

[Stephanie B]

So that's where we mail the box of dildos?

And bags of pork rinds.

[JodyH]

I'm guessing that Kim Jong-Un's top general is freaking out about now.
He'll be executed by Kim is he doesn't fire off a rocket, he might get Hellfired by Trump if he does.
LOL

[Borderland]

Add this.


A Trump administration official reportedly informed U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Gutteres Monday that Zarif would not be allowed into the U.S. to attend a U.N. Security Council meeting scheduled for January 9.


https://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-denies-iran-foreign-minister-visa-attend-un-meeting-amid-rising-tensions-1480701





Thanks for reopening this thread.:D

[Mike C]

SKDTac is a friend of PF and as such, PF endorses their products.

I would expect nothing less from such a fine place and group of people. :cool:

[blues]

Looks like the Iranians are trying to do themselves in...


TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — A stampede broke out Tuesday at a funeral for a top Iranian general slain in a U.S. airstrike, and at least 56 people were killed and more than 200 were injured as thousands thronged the procession, Iranian news reports said.

The stampede took place in Kerman, the hometown of Revolutionary Guard Gen. Qassem Soleimani, as the procession began, said Pirhossein Koulivand, head of Iran’s emergency medical services.

There was no information what set off the crush. Online videos showed people lying apparently lifeless, their faces covered by clothing. Emergency crews performed CPR on others as people wailed in the background, crying out to God.

[Totem Polar]

Iraq consulate in Detroit to accept condolences on behalf of Iranian general killed in US airstrike

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/01/07/iraqi-consulate-in-detroit-to-accept-condolences-on-behalf-of-iranian-general-killed-in-us-airstrike/

You can’t make this stuff up.

Super Telephoto lens, meet visitors. It’s a bonanza!

[blues]

You can’t make this stuff up.

Super Telephoto lens, meet visitors. It’s a bonanza!

Somewhere in the bowels of the Iraqi Consulate in Detroit...

https://www.socialistalternative.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/WOCvotersandSquad.jpg

"On January 3, 2020 some people did something..."

[Borderland]

Somewhere in the bowels of the Iraqi Consulate in Detroit...

https://www.socialistalternative.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/WOCvotersandSquad.jpg

"On January 3, 2020 some people did something..."

May your camel wreck you tent and foul your Couscous. ;)

[NEPAKevin]

Looks like the Iranians are trying to do themselves in...


There was no information what set off the crush. ...




46871

[Wondering Beard]

This was interesting.

Putin Now Needs a Plan B on Iran (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-now-needs-plan-b-060035906.html)

[blues]

This was interesting.

Putin Now Needs a Plan B on Iran (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-now-needs-plan-b-060035906.html)

Putin on the Risk.

[Wondering Beard]

Putin on the Risk.


Dressed up like a million dollar trooper
Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper
Super duper

[farscott]

I know this is necessary and I know it has happened before, but reading that it is necessary raises my blood pressure. https://taskandpurpose.com/arlington-national-cemetary-security-iran


Arlington National Cemetery is tightening its security protocols and warning visitors to report suspicious activity in the wake of a U.S. strike that killed Gen. Qasem Soleimani, head of Iran's elite Quds force.

In a series of tweets Friday afternoon, Arlington staff announced that the cemetery, located by the Pentagon and across the Potomac from Washington, D.C., is implementing 100% identification checks at all entrances.

"Effective immediately, all visitors 16 years and older (pedestrians, drivers and passengers) must present a valid state or government issued photo identification upon entering the cemetery," cemetery staff said in tweets. "Visitors include all funeral attendees, tourists, and personnel on official business."

Targeting and attacking a cemetery dedicated to those who gave their lives in the service of our country is so far outside of civilized behavior as to be unthinkable. And to think that some of the people who will need to provide ID are people who are there to bury their loved ones. And now they need to worry about someone targeting them and the remains of their loved ones.

[Baldanders]

So are we leaving Iraq?

Or not?

Even our own military seems confused about it.

If not, is it likely the Iraqi parliament will declare "just kidding?"

[RoyGBiv]

Putin on the Risk.


Of course THIS version comes to mind immediately....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGZRhejBZ8Y

[UNK]

I know this is necessary and I know it has happened before, but reading that it is necessary raises my blood pressure. https://taskandpurpose.com/arlington-national-cemetary-security-iran



Targeting and attacking a cemetery dedicated to those who gave their lives in the service of our country is so far outside of civilized behavior as to be unthinkable. And to think that some of the people who will need to provide ID are people who are there to bury their loved ones. And now they need to worry about someone targeting them and the remains of their loved ones.

52 targets....I wonder if Israel/Mossad/special forces are frothing in anticipation of being turned loose.

[JohnO]

A condolence gift.

https://www.baconscouts.com/gift/send-the-best-bacon-of-the-month-club/

[blues]

What says "we care" more than 52 pigs in a blanket?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2EytpX5w3tYf-Kingvbq9Kh_Fx1_q7FLAetmfb_4XkY9s1Y0WSWAnbCaYCIjeA1 WN07VwibdKmDBfSiuDc36h8A=s1358-rj-v1-e365

[Wondering Beard]

Of course THIS version comes to mind immediately....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGZRhejBZ8Y

Well, they also were going to fail at:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Hee9291ebe197486da7d5b845edcc99bfS/Global-Domination-Strategy-Board-Games-RISK-War-Board-Game-Risico-Risco-Table-Games-2-6-Players.jpg


So, it makes perfect sense you thought of that version :-)

[BehindBlueI's]

If not, is it likely the Iraqi parliament will declare "just kidding?"

Something not made clear in US media outlets is the following:


The non-binding resolution must now be sent back to Cabinet for it to become a law - although Iraq’s current caretaker government cannot pass legislation. The controversial, but largely symbolic decision was adopted in surreal circumstances. The session was boycotted by nearly half of all Iraqis parliamentarians and led by caretaker Prime Minister Adel Abdul Mahdi, a man who had resigned from his position last month. He was largely discredited among Iraqi youth for overseeing a ruthless crackdown that took the lives of hundreds of unarmed protesters - many of whom died at the hands of pro-Iranian militias represented in parliament.

https://www.thenational.ae/opinion/editorial/iraqi-sovereignty-is-not-just-about-troop-presence-1.960679

[Baldanders]

Something not made clear in US media outlets is the following:



https://www.thenational.ae/opinion/editorial/iraqi-sovereignty-is-not-just-about-troop-presence-1.960679

Thanks, I sort of got bits of that from some coverage I have followed, but no one really put it all together.

Seems like some folks were "playing to the base," and the lawmakers who stayed away are safe in their seats as well.

[HCountyGuy]

Reports coming in of a rocket attack on the Al Asad air base in Iraq.

I think the fecal matter just hit the oscillating air-dispersion unit...

[Tokarev]

Good one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200107/c342028e82a9403ed8060e212a095a21.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Amp]

Missiles were fired early Wednesday in multiple locations across Iraq, a senior U.S. military source in the country told Fox News, describing it as a series of attacks on U.S. forces from Iran.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/missile-attacks-target-us-forces-in-iraq-senior-military-source-says-iran-suspected

[farscott]

Reports coming in of a rocket attack on the Al Asad air base in Iraq.

I think the fecal matter just hit the oscillating air-dispersion unit...

There are many conflicting reports, with some saying as few as six missiles and others say 400 plus. There are reports of fatalities, which I hope are not correct. Fog of war and all that, but the missiles have been described as either "surface-to-surface ballistic" or "cruise missiles". In any event, this seems to be a coordinated attack.

[HCountyGuy]

There are many conflicting reports, with some saying as few as six missiles and others say 400 plus. There are reports of fatalities, which I hope are not correct. Fog of war and all that, but the missiles have been described as either "surface-to-surface ballistic" or "cruise missiles". In any event, this seems to be a coordinated attack.

Iranian State TV is claiming the missles were launched from Tehran.

[Lex Luthier]

Iranian State TV is claiming the missles were launched from Tehran.

Oh boy, here we go.
Godspeed, you Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, & Airmen.

I wonder if Henry Kissinger is watching tv and wondering if he will have lived long enough to finally see Iran lose as Iraq did.

[Cory]

Hopefully this military action will end swiftly, and with more missiles than troops on ground.

I wonder how much Al Asad has changed since I saw it last. At the time it was often referred to as "Camp Cupcake" by the half of my company that wasn't living there. It's a pretty large base, and from what I remember of the entry points it was well fortified with multiple layers.

-Cory

[Stephanie B]

This business has a potential to spin out of control.

[Baldanders]

Good one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200107/c342028e82a9403ed8060e212a095a21.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

This doesn't align with the story the Trump administration is telling:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/03/donald-trump-iran-soleimani-093371?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[Warped Mindless]

Well... Things about to get interesting.

[Timbonez]

Reports are Al-Asad AB and Erbil. Apparently some unconfirmed reports of Taji as well.

[Drang]

There are many conflicting reports, with some saying as few as six missiles and others say 400 plus. There are reports of fatalities, which I hope are not correct. Fog of war and all that, but the missiles have been described as either "surface-to-surface ballistic" or "cruise missiles". In any event, this seems to be a coordinated attack.

CNN says "a dozen", which, with their recent track record, could mean anything, or nothing.

The Pentagon says "over a dozen." (Difference is presumably due to later reporting.)
(I will note that CNN actually seems interested in reporting breaking news that is really breaking, instead of just running talking heads talking to other talking heads, or running Anthony Bourdain reruns.)
(Yes, I'm the guy that keeps changing the channel on the TV in operations to the weather channel.)

[JodyH]

My theory... Sulemain was the only man keeping the Ayatollahs safe from the uprising going on and I think that uprising has been far more significant and effective than reported.
This lashing out is the Ayatollahs final "fuck you" before they get run out of power.
I would no be surprised if they try to nuke Israel (or at least throw a nuke into a US base in Iraq) if they actually have one that's functional.
They're going to try and make it a full blown Jihad instead of just a Persian war.

I blame this shit on every President from Carter to Obama, all of them kicked the can down the road (including Reagan who should have crushed them in his first month).

[RJ]

Time to buy Raytheon stock I guess :cool:

Kidding. I’m sure the Patriot batteries are getting a workout. My thoughts and prayers are with our folks overseas. I hope the reports of no casualties are confirmed.

I’ll also say Iran launching a mission attack direct to Iraqi soil is a pretty freaking big deal.

We’ll have to see where this ends up.

[NEPAKevin]

Good one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200107/c342028e82a9403ed8060e212a095a21.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

FWIW, were it me, I would have an armed drone on stand-by running SIGINT as I made the call to inform the appropriate party. Kind of like the game of telling a secret to just one person, but with AGM-114s.

[blues]

My theory... Sulemain was the only man keeping the Ayatollahs safe from the uprising going on and I think that uprising has been far more significant and effective than reported.
This lashing out is the Ayatollahs final "fuck you" before they get run out of power.
I would no be surprised if they try to nuke Israel (or at least throw a nuke into a US base in Iraq) if they actually have one that's functional.
They're going to try and make it a full blown Jihad instead of just a Persian war.

I blame this shit on every President from Carter to Obama, all of them kicked the can down the road (including Reagan who should have crushed them in his first month).

I don't disagree but I'd be a lot happier if our 3 dimensional chess player would stop painting himself into a virtual corner with tweets instead of keeping his cards close to the vest for an appropriately measured response...whatever might be appropriate.

When you go around announcing to the world what a badass you are and rattle your saber it takes away some of the available options.

[El Cid]

Speaking of Hellfire missiles... have we discussed the new versions that have pop out swords in place of explosives? Pretty impressive performance from what I’ve seen.

As for the Iranian attack - I hope the Patriot batteries performed as advertised. When I was overseas I used to look at them and wonder how good they were while hoping we’d never need them.

[Warped Mindless]

Nvm...

[Borderland]

This business has a potential to spin out of control.

The US and Iran will be trading cruise missiles for awhile. It will be a test of Russian cruise missile tech and US cruise missile tech.

Iran has to use Glonass to guide their missiles. That's the Russian equivalent to our GPS navigational system. Glonass has a horizontal precision accuracy of 10-15 meters. Our system is more accurate, like thru the front door accurate. You would have to see it to believe it. If Russia has sold the missiles/hardware to Iran, which I assume they have, and they use the restricted Glonass codes their targeting will be precise enough to hit individual buildings. Not a good thought for anyone in Iraq being targeted by an Iranian cruise missile. US missiles can be launched from surface ships and subs. I'm sure Iran is going to get a taste of that PDQ.

Putin is on the move.

[Guinnessman]

Maybe Hollywood can use the footage of some U.S. jets downing some F-14’s in the new Top Gun movie.

Who needs computer graphics!

[RJ]

Speaking of Hellfire missiles... have we discussed the new versions that have pop out swords in place of explosives? Pretty impressive performance from what I’ve seen.



I’m sorry...”swords”?

[Borderland]

Maybe Hollywood can use the footage of some U.S. jets downing some F-14’s in the new Top Gun movie.

Who needs computer graphics!

Computer graphics suck. We need more real time footage.

[EPF]

I’m sorry...”swords”?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31375/americans-hellfire-missile-that-uses-swords-instead-of-explosives-struck-again-in-syria

[Rick62]

I’m sorry...”swords”?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31409/everything-we-know-about-americas-sword-blade-hellfire-missile-and-its-latest-target

ETA: EPF beat me to it...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Cid]

I’m sorry...”swords”?

Lol! Indeed.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10478375/ninja-bomb-swords-us-syria-attack/

[RoyGBiv]

Prayers for our team in harms way.
Prayers for strength and calm and wisdom for American decision makers.
Prayers for the safety of Iranian civilians that want to be free of the extremist yolk that holds them hostage.

[Wake27]

I know this is necessary and I know it has happened before, but reading that it is necessary raises my blood pressure. https://taskandpurpose.com/arlington-national-cemetary-security-iran



Targeting and attacking a cemetery dedicated to those who gave their lives in the service of our country is so far outside of civilized behavior as to be unthinkable. And to think that some of the people who will need to provide ID are people who are there to bury their loved ones. And now they need to worry about someone targeting them and the remains of their loved ones.

Pretty sure that was DOD-wide. Several (if not all) bases did that as a precautionary measure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Warped Mindless]

Hearing zero US deaths.

Anyone wanna bet things go back to semi-normal now? Iran needed to do something to save face so they launched some rockets and made sure not ro kill anyone. Now Trump can make fun of them for "bad aim" and Iran can say they successfully got "revenge."

Then both sides go back to trading insults.

[JohnO]

46882

[RJ]

Lol! Indeed.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10478375/ninja-bomb-swords-us-syria-attack/

The Sun? The Sun? Come on are you serious? In the UK, The Sun is known for Page 3 girls and that is about it.

I’d have more faith in the National Enquirer lol.

[TGS]

I know this is necessary and I know it has happened before, but reading that it is necessary raises my blood pressure. https://taskandpurpose.com/arlington-national-cemetary-security-iran



Targeting and attacking a cemetery dedicated to those who gave their lives in the service of our country is so far outside of civilized behavior as to be unthinkable. And to think that some of the people who will need to provide ID are people who are there to bury their loved ones. And now they need to worry about someone targeting them and the remains of their loved ones.

Not only is it basically DOD wide, but Arlington National Cemetery borders Joint-Base Myers-Henderson Hall. Whatever JBMHH does, ANC needs to do.

[RoyGBiv]

Hearing zero US deaths.

Anyone wanna bet things go back to semi-normal now? Iran needed to do something to save face so they launched some rockets and made sure not ro kill anyone. Now Trump can make fun of them for "bad aim" and Iran can say they successfully got "revenge."

Then both sides go back to trading insults.

Zero chance. 0.

[El Cid]

The Sun? The Sun? Come on are you serious? In the UK, The Sun is known for Page 3 girls and that is about it.

I’d have more faith in the National Enquirer lol.

Lol! Is this better?
https://taskandpurpose.com/cia-r9x-hellfire-missile

Lots of sites reported it. I just grabbed the first one.

[RJ]

Lol! Is this better?
https://taskandpurpose.com/cia-r9x-hellfire-missile

Lots of sites reported it. I just grabbed the first one.

Ho Lee Shit.

Takes a Flechette warhead to a new level lol.

[Borderland]

Hopefully the WH will have an official statement tomorrow about what actually happened and the casualties if any.

Hoping for the best possible outcome.

[HCM]

46889

[Totem Polar]

^^^HCM

Epic. :D

[Baldanders]

I am mellow, but my poor students are freaking out about WWIII. This includes self-proclaimed Trump supporters.

Suggestions?

Love the ad above, BTW.

[Yung]

Some of you might know about Glen Stilson, a local trainer here in Arizona who occasionally co-teaches a close contact handgun class and entangled handgun class with Cecil Burch. Mr. Stilson also has a weekly podcast, and this week's episode was with someone also from around here who worked with the Peshmerga a while back.

https://thearmsroomvom.podbean.com/e/neil-joins-us-to-discuss-his-time-with-the-pesh/

You can skip to about 11:18 to get to the main content.

[Totem Polar]

I am mellow, but my poor students are freaking out about WWIII. This includes self-proclaimed Trump supporters.

Suggestions?

Love the ad above, BTW.

Remind them that we’ve been at war with Iran—on a sliding scale from hot to cold—since the end of 1979. Let them know that Iran may be off the hook, but a bunch of other countries over there don’t want it to spread. Remind them that initial media reports are often wrong, and sometimes never get it quite right, even with tine. Tell them to take anything on TV with a grain of salt, and to be skeptical if they see a bunch of unrelated stories all using the same stock photo.

Might be worth doing a short module on Iran, discussing life there prior to the revolution, and post-revolution. Contrast and compare.
:)

[Wake27]

I am mellow, but my poor students are freaking out about WWIII. This includes self-proclaimed Trump supporters.

Suggestions?

Love the ad above, BTW.

Who are your students?

I can read better intel than most because of my job, but am not close enough nor have anywhere near enough time in to make anywhere close to a worthwhile prediction. That being said, just from a logical standpoint, I feel like all of the big players we’d be worried about for WWIII have far better things to do.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JRB]

Hi guys. Last night was fun.

I can't speak on exact numbers for obvious reasons, but safe to say that Iranian missiles had an abysmal ratio for missiles fired:missile impacted anywhere near a base... or even got off their launchers intact and got counted in the media coverage, for that matter.
All of us are relieved at the news of zero casualties regardless.

Reasoning of 'Honor is satisfied by aiming at nothing' rings hollow as fuck to me. It's a convenient excuse for the equipment failures, that's for sure. That's my opinion based on everything else I've seen.

The game is afoot, and we're busy as fuck doing the math and monitoring and data collection etc so all the boys and girls doing the real work have everything they need.



Prayers for our team in harms way.
Prayers for strength and calm and wisdom for American decision makers.
Prayers for the safety of Iranian civilians that want to be free of the extremist yolk that holds them hostage.

Same prayers as mine - though I pray too for restraint and wisdom among the leadership of our adversaries, and not just our own leadership.



I am mellow, but my poor students are freaking out about WWIII. This includes self-proclaimed Trump supporters.

Suggestions?

Love the ad above, BTW.

Tell your students this: There are hundreds of thousands of American service members on the job, right now, doing everything we can in our rather impressive capabilities to make sure of three things:
-Your students, you, and your fellow Americans are safe
-Our brothers & sisters in arms are safe
-That collective safety is secured with the most measured, precise, and minimum force possible.

At home, your students have tens of thousands of LEO's and Gov agencies doing everything in their rather impressive abilities to ensure that they're safe at home, and that the rest of us are safe out here too.
Emphasize that this is a constant - and that collective effort and sense of purpose has not changed due to recent events, it has only further galvanized our already-hardened resolve. That same work, guided by our resolve and sense of purpose has been relentlessly ongoing the entire time your students have been alive.

Presently, there are thousands of us over here chomping at the bit to replace everything Iranian-military looking with smoking craters, and we're overwhelmingly capable of doing exactly that. The ability of the US Military to visit complete and utter destruction upon those who would be our enemies is limited only by our conscience and morality.

The only reason our leadership keeps us on the leash is the desire for peace, and the efforts to achieve that peaceful end-state with the minimum amount of force possible.


At the moment, we're playing that 'loss of face' game because Iran's leadership basically had to do something to prove to the rest of the Arab world they aren't a bunch of bitches, even though they're a bunch of sadistic bitches.
Whether or not our response is decisive by their standards, or we allow them to have this last word remains to be seen.

Whatever comes, we are definitely prepared.

[Totem Polar]

Hi guys. Last night was fun...

In the running for post of the year. I mean, there’s still, what, 51 weeks to go, but in all, a solid start.

[farscott]

Time to buy Raytheon stock I guess :cool:

Kidding. I’m sure the Patriot batteries are getting a workout. My thoughts and prayers are with our folks overseas. I hope the reports of no casualties are confirmed.

I’ll also say Iran launching a mission attack direct to Iraqi soil is a pretty freaking big deal.

We’ll have to see where this ends up.

As I led the EE team that did one of the major PATRIOT shelter components (Raytheon was the prime contractor and my employer did the work) about a decade ago, I am confident that PATRIOT will do what is needed while also worrying about all kinds of obscure failure modes of my components that were in the FMEA.

There are no issues with the PATRIOT component, but there comes a time in every development when it is "time to shoot the engineers" and release the product. My team was obsessive about meeting the spirit of the requirements, not just the written requirements, as we worked within the shadow of Redstone Arsenal. We actually provided feedback on the approved SOW as we knew the SOW as written would have allowed a defect and demonstrated that our design did not have the defect.

[Hambo]

Hi guys. Last night was fun.

I can't speak on exact numbers for obvious reasons, but safe to say that Iranian missiles had an abysmal ratio for missiles fired:missile impacted anywhere near a base... or even got off their launchers intact and got counted in the media coverage, for that matter.
All of us are relieved at the news of zero casualties regardless.

Reasoning of 'Honor is satisfied by aiming at nothing' rings hollow as fuck to me. It's a convenient excuse for the equipment failures, that's for sure. That's my opinion based on everything else I've seen.

The game is afoot, and we're busy as fuck doing the math and monitoring and data collection etc so all the boys and girls doing the real work have everything they need.




Same prayers as mine - though I pray too for restraint and wisdom among the leadership of our adversaries, and not just our own leadership.




Tell your students this: There are hundreds of thousands of American service members on the job, right now, doing everything we can in our rather impressive capabilities to make sure of three things:
-Your students, you, and your fellow Americans are safe
-Our brothers & sisters in arms are safe
-That collective safety is secured with the most measured, precise, and minimum force possible.

At home, your students have tens of thousands of LEO's and Gov agencies doing everything in their rather impressive abilities to ensure that they're safe at home, and that the rest of us are safe out here too.
Emphasize that this is a constant - and that collective effort and sense of purpose has not changed due to recent events, it has only further galvanized our already-hardened resolve. That same work, guided by our resolve and sense of purpose has been relentlessly ongoing the entire time your students have been alive.

Presently, there are thousands of us over here chomping at the bit to replace everything Iranian-military looking with smoking craters, and we're overwhelmingly capable of doing exactly that. The ability of the US Military to visit complete and utter destruction upon those who would be our enemies is limited only by our conscience and morality.

The only reason our leadership keeps us on the leash is the desire for peace, and the efforts to achieve that peaceful end-state with the minimum amount of force possible.


At the moment, we're playing that 'loss of face' game because Iran's leadership basically had to do something to prove to the rest of the Arab world they aren't a bunch of bitches, even though they're a bunch of sadistic bitches.
Whether or not our response is decisive by their standards, or we allow them to have this last word remains to be seen.

Whatever comes, we are definitely prepared.

I logged on P-F this morning hoping to get a real news dump from you, rather than whatever hysteria is on stateside infotainment.

Thanks, brother, for the work you do.

[TiroFijo]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-plane-crash-shootdown-ukraine-boeing-latest-a9275051.html

"Doubts have been cast over Iranian assertions that a deadly Ukrainian plane crash near Tehran was the result of technical failures, with independent aviation operations experts saying a “shootdown” was the most likely explanation."

"While some aviation experts said it was too early to speculate, the OPS group, an aviation risk monitoring group, said: “We would recommend the starting assumption to be that this was a shootdown event, similar to MH17 – until there is clear evidence to the contrary," highlighting photos of the crash site which they said "show obvious projectile holes in the fuselage and a wing section."

[Borderland]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-plane-crash-shootdown-ukraine-boeing-latest-a9275051.html

"Doubts have been cast over Iranian assertions that a deadly Ukrainian plane crash near Tehran was the result of technical failures, with independent aviation operations experts saying a “shootdown” was the most likely explanation."

"While some aviation experts said it was too early to speculate, the OPS group, an aviation risk monitoring group, said: “We would recommend the starting assumption to be that this was a shootdown event, similar to MH17 – until there is clear evidence to the contrary," highlighting photos of the crash site which they said "show obvious projectile holes in the fuselage and a wing section."

Maybe the Iranians are a little to quick on the trigger. Probably scared shitless.

I don't recall. Was MH17 the incident where a US destroyer shot down an Iranian commercial flight.

I would look it up but my internet is compromised right now.

[TiroFijo]

Maybe the Iranians are a little to quick on the trigger. Probably scared shitless.

I don't recall. Was MH17 the incident where a US destroyer shot down an Iranian commercial flight.

I would look it up but my internet is compromised right now.

Never a good idea to fly over war zones with trigger happy missile commanders...

MH17 was the Malaysia flight pro-russian separatists took down over eastern Ukraine in 2014

Iran Air 655 was the one the US Navy took down over the Strait of Hormuz in 1988

[HCM]

Remind them that we’ve been at war with Iran—on a sliding scale from hot to cold—since the end of 1979. Let them know that Iran may be off the hook, but a bunch of other countries over there don’t want it to spread. Remind them that initial media reports are often wrong, and sometimes never get it quite right, even with tine. Tell them to take anything on TV with a grain of salt, and to be skeptical if they see a bunch of unrelated stories all using the same stock photo.

Might be worth doing a short module on Iran, discussing life there prior to the revolution, and post-revolution. Contrast and compare.
:)

Also remind them (more likely teach them) that the 52 targets Trump is threatening in case of retaliation are symbolic of the 52 American Hostages from 1979.

You can also teach them some more recent history:


Washington Post: April 19, 1988
The United States sank or crippled six Iranian ships and fired at Iranian warplanes yesterday during a daylong series of fierce sea and air battles that erupted across the Persian Gulf after the U.S. Navy destroyed two oil platforms in a retaliatory strike ordered by President Reagan.
President Reagan said, "We aim to deter further Iranian aggression, not provoke it. They must know that we will protect our ships, and if they threaten us, they'll pay a price." There was wide bipartisan approval in Congress of the president's action. Despite all the gunfire on the gulf, Reagan and Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci said the United States was not trying to provoke Iran, but was carrying out limited military retaliation for the Iranian mine that almost sank the USS Samuel B. Roberts, a guided missile frigate, last Thursday. The Roberts struck the mine after escorting a Kuwaiti tanker flying the U.S. flag through the gulf.
"Our Navy made a measured response to Iran's latest use of military force against U.S. ships in international waters as well as its continued military terrorist attacks against a number of nonbelligerents," Reagan said. "We've taken this action to make sure the Iranians have no illusions about the cost of irresponsible behavior.” ——-

[Stephanie B]

Hearing zero US deaths.

Anyone wanna bet things go back to semi-normal now? Iran needed to do something to save face so they launched some rockets and made sure not ro kill anyone. Now Trump can make fun of them for "bad aim" and Iran can say they successfully got "revenge."

Then both sides go back to trading insults.

That would be optimal, if Trump takes the opening that's been given to him. But operating on the basis of “*nobody* would be stupid enough to do *that*” doesn’t seem to work anymore for predicting future actions.

[Caballoflaco]

NPR has some satellite photos of damage at us bases up, and some of the missles did get through.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794517031/satellite-photos-reveal-extent-of-damage-at-al-assad-air-base

[Poconnor]

When I first heard about the “52” important targets to Iran and Iranian culture my first thought was if you don’t want important cultural targets hit - don’t hide military targets in cultural sites. Not to mention in mosques, schools, hospitals.

[UNK]

Whats the mother of all insults for that region?

[Shoresy]

Never a good idea to fly over war zones with trigger happy missile commanders...

MH17 was the Malaysia flight pro-russian separatists took down over eastern Ukraine in 2014

Iran Air 655 was the one the US Navy took down over the Strait of Hormuz in 1988

"pro-russian separatists" under Russian command (https://www.rferl.org/a/jit-name-suspects-charges-mh17-ukraine-malaysia-russia-shootdown/30007817.html) that drove out of Kursk (https://www.kyivpost.com/kyiv-post-plus/journalists-find-solid-russian-ties-to-missile-that-hit-mh17-371161.html) (as part of 53rd Anti Aircraft Brigade (https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Origin-of-the-Separatists-Buk-A-Bellingcat-Investigation1.pdf))

The Russians shot down MH17, probably by accident. I'd suspect the Iranians did the same thing.

[Warped Mindless]

Just listened to Trump. Looks like eveything is going back to "normal" if Iran can play nice.

[TiroFijo]

NPR has some satellite photos of damage at us bases up, and some of the missles did get through.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794517031/satellite-photos-reveal-extent-of-damage-at-al-assad-air-base

I would never expect total protection from an anti missile defense system.

But this level of accuracy is a bit worrying... does not look like blind luck

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2020/01/08/ain-assad-2_wide-e01028baec721346fd7fcf6af819f99c0f02fd18-s800-c85.png

[Chance]

Anyone wanna bet things go back to semi-normal now? Iran needed to do something to save face so they launched some rockets and made sure not ro kill anyone. Now Trump can make fun of them for "bad aim" and Iran can say they successfully got "revenge."

Then both sides go back to trading insults.

That's along the lines of what I've been anticipating since the drone strike. Iran had to do something overt to save face, but they know full-well they can only escalate so far before they lose the tit-for-tat game. No rational leader wants a protracted ground war / regime change right now and every other leader knows that. We'll just have to wait for Trump's decision to see how long this back-and-forth is going to play out.

[jrm]

I probably don’t post enough to be recognized but I am an admitted critic of President Trump. I must say that his announcement to me seemed very reasonable and hopefully has averted an all out war. I will just leave it on a positive note and not attempt to delve into past actions. I will simply say I think that was his most appropriate and presidential act thus far and I am happy about that.

Edited to add I am beyond glad that none of our troops were harmed which made this position a lot more feasible. The killing of a bunch of our troops and threatening our homeland if we respond to that by a nation that is pursuing nuclear weapons is simply not an act I feel we could ignore no matter how anti-Trump or antiwar I may be.

[Warped Mindless]

Every liberal on my FB feed is pro-war now.

[UNK]

Multiple impacts

46909

[Poconnor]

I thought he sounded good. I do wonder about people that worry about him starting a war. They don’t seem to realize that we have been at war since 9/11. I understand they don’t want a “bigger war” I guess this applies
46911

[TiroFijo]

Deliberate targeting of hangars and equipment to avoid/minimize loss of life on the receiving end? Or not? :confused:

[Zincwarrior]

Am I wrong or did a foreign nation just attack a US base, and we do nothing?

[Zincwarrior]

Also is it me or did he not look well?

[Redhat]

Am I wrong or did a foreign nation just attack a US base, and we do nothing?

Actually I think it's an Iraqi base...anyway...what do you think we should do?

[Zincwarrior]

Actually I think it's an Iraqi base...anyway...what do you think we should do?

Not be there.

[UNK]

Also is it me or did he not look well?

Whens the last time you stayed up all night at the age of 73 assessing something this huge and important not to mention developing a course of action, gave an internationally viewed speech and were a chipper little squirrel the next morning.

[Totem Polar]

Every liberal on my FB feed is pro-war now.

Wait; wut?

You have different liberals in your timeline. I have career army defending Iran in some of my social media this morning.
:D

Artists... we’re all nuts.

[Borderland]

Deliberate targeting of hangars and equipment to avoid/minimize loss of life on the receiving end? Or not? :confused:

That would be my guess. More for the message than anything else. Carefully targeted for minimum casualties.

[scjbash]

Also is it me or did he not look well?


It seems like everyone in this part of the country is either sick, getting over being sick, or going to be sick by the end of the month.

[LittleLebowski]

We don’t need the Middle East.


Fucking. Nailed. It.

[LittleLebowski]

46912

[Zincwarrior]

Whens the last time you stayed up all night at the age of 73 assessing something this huge and important not to mention developing a course of action, gave an internationally viewed speech and were a chipper little squirrel the next morning.


No, he looked physically ill.

Also I am never chipper.

[Borderland]

Am I wrong or did a foreign nation just attack a US base, and we do nothing?

Trump isn't going to start a war with Iran. Too close to an election.

Goes totally against everything Trump promised in his campaign and his rhetoric/actions in office to date.

[TiroFijo]

If you wage war to a country for very dubious reasons, break it, and occupy it for 17 years afterwards don't blame too much the locals for being somewhat unfriendly...

[Hambo]

No, he looked physically ill.

He sounded like I do when I have a chest cold.

[Warped Mindless]

He sounded like I do when I have a chest cold.

Im 29, in extremly good health, and when I stay up all night involved on stressful situations, I often sound worse than he did. Im impressed he didn't look more ran down.

[Totem Polar]

Also I am never chipper.

We can hang out.

[RJ]

Whats the mother of all insults for that region?

Isn't it hurling a shoe at your opponent?

[Baldanders]

Also is it me or did he not look well?
Even my pro-Trump students were tittering at all the stumbling he was doing during his speech.

He seems addled and not well-rested at all.

[Redhat]

Even my pro-Trump students were tittering at all the stumbling he was doing during his speech.

He seems addled and not well-rested at all.

Worse than Mr. Biden?

[fly out]

Even my pro-Trump students were tittering at all the stumbling he was doing during his speech.

He seems addled and not well-rested at all.

Yeah, he doesn't have the 'president' thing figured out yet. The pro move would have been to get a lot of rest, go golfing and then hit a glitzy fundraiser.

Remember those days? I do.

[UNK]

So what is the deal with two things:
1: how did that many missiles get through the defenses
2: why hasnt there been any coverage of launched vs impacted

[blues]

So what is the deal with two things:
1: how did that many missiles get through the defenses
2: why hasnt there been any coverage of launched vs impacted

Whatever doesn't fit the narrative will be fake news...or the Dems...or the Iranians. Wait, what?

Somebody probably has better answers.

[Cory]

So what is the deal with two things:
1: how did that many missiles get through the defenses
2: why hasnt there been any coverage of launched vs impacted

These are unsettling questions. The NPR photos also clearly show buildings that look like they were intended to be hit.

If they had wanted to inflict casualties it appears they would have done so. Or, this was allowed so that Iran could claim a retaliation and everyone gets an exit. If that's the case, I think it's well done.

-Cory

[GyroF-16]

So what is the deal with two things:
1: how did that many missiles get through the defenses
2: why hasnt there been any coverage of launched vs impacted

To #2: Protection of “Sources & Methods.”
Revealing too much of what we know about an adversary’s activities also risks compromising the means of knowing it. And risks the adversary’s employing methods and tactics to keep us from gathering that information in the future.

It isn’t worth potentially compromising the ability to monitor future events merely so the president can brag about how unreliable Iran’s ballistic missiles are.

[Joe in PNG]

To #2: Protection of “Sources & Methods.”
Revealing too much of what we know about an adversary’s activities also risks compromising the means of knowing it. And risks the adversary’s employing methods and tactics to keep us from gathering that information in the future.

It isn’t worth potentially compromising the ability to monitor future events merely so the president can brag about how unreliable Iran’s ballistic missiles are.

Why give them a free bomb damage assessment and bonus target spotting?

[Totem Polar]

These are unsettling questions. The NPR photos also clearly show buildings that look like they were intended to be hit.

If they had wanted to inflict casualties it appears they would have done so. Or, this was allowed so that Iran could claim a retaliation and everyone gets an exit. If that's the case, I think it's well done.

-Cory

https://66.media.tumblr.com/a7dc973a23e715d075ac1aa5ad457968/tumblr_p1qvszLlDC1w4t58uo2_500.gifv


Except for JRB. The matrix most def doesn’t have that fucking guy. :)

[Borderland]

Worse than Mr. Biden?

That isn't a good comparison. Don't compare him to Bernie either. Most everyone in their 70's takes a laxative everyday and they're wondering what day of the week it is. If they aren't there yet they will be very soon. Trump is no exception. Nobody who qualifies for Required Minimum Distribution (SSI) should be able to run for president. The reason is you don't have that much longer to live. The fed ran the numbers. 9 years average.

Trump doesn't look all that healthy. Maybe Melania is wearing him out but I doubt it.

[Redhat]

That isn't a good comparison. Don't compare him to Bernie either. Most everyone in their 70's takes a laxative everyday and they're wondering what day of the week it is. If they aren't there yet they will be very soon. Trump is no exception. Nobody who qualifies for Required Minimum Distribution (SSI) should be able to run for president. The reason is you don't have that much longer to live. The fed ran the numbers. 9 years average.

Trump doesn't look all that healthy. Maybe Melania is wearing him out but I doubt it.

Maybe Mrs. Clinton then...

[txdpd]

46937


My thoughts go out to the men and women on the ground. It’s a terrible to take incoming fire and know that your just along for the ride.

[JAD]

Maybe Mrs. Clinton then...

If it was Hilary he’d have killed himself recently.

[Borderland]

These are unsettling questions. The NPR photos also clearly show buildings that look like they were intended to be hit.

If they had wanted to inflict casualties it appears they would have done so. Or, this was allowed so that Iran could claim a retaliation and everyone gets an exit. If that's the case, I think it's well done.

-Cory

It's well done.

Two hour warning. Nobody gives you a 2 hour warning to insure there are no casualties unless they don't want any casualties.

Everyone is playing to avoid an escalation and we may have succeeded. I'm pretty damn happy about that.

[LittleLebowski]

That isn't a good comparison. Don't compare him to Bernie either. Most everyone in their 70's takes a laxative everyday and they're wondering what day of the week it is. If they aren't there yet they will be very soon. Trump is no exception. Nobody who qualifies for Required Minimum Distribution (SSI) should be able to run for president. The reason is you don't have that much longer to live. The fed ran the numbers. 9 years average.

Trump doesn't look all that healthy. Maybe Melania is wearing him out but I doubt it.

My father is older than Trump and sharp as a tack.

[Borderland]

Maybe Mrs. Clinton then...

:D

One year longer.

[Borderland]

My father is older than Trump and sharp as a tack.

My mom lived to be 92. She was pretty sharp up until about 90. Crossword puzzles, articulate conversation, good memory, that sort of stuff. Not someone you want running the country tho.

I'm not running down old people but at 70 you start to lose a step or two. I have some experience with that.

[fly out]

That isn't a good comparison. Don't compare him to Bernie either. Most everyone in their 70's takes a laxative everyday and they're wondering what day of the week it is. If they aren't there yet they will be very soon. Trump is no exception. Nobody who qualifies for Required Minimum Distribution (SSI) should be able to run for president. The reason is you don't have that much longer to live. The fed ran the numbers. 9 years average.

Trump doesn't look all that healthy. Maybe Melania is wearing him out but I doubt it.

Is it worth pointing out that most 70-year-olds do know what day it is, 'the fed' didn't run the numbers, 'the number' isn't 9 years, and 'Required Minimum Distribution (SSI)' isn't a thing?

Nah.:cool:

[Borderland]

Why give them a free bomb damage assessment and bonus target spotting?

Because they need to know that they didn't hit something they didn't want to hit. Just helping them a little with the national pride BS. Most Iranians will rejoice in the fact that the gov't did something spectacular and it didn't get them killed. They don't want to go to war any more than the US does.

They can hit whatever they want to hit.

[Lex Luthier]

I am sure that there are a good number (though likely dwindling daily) of informers, spotters, double-agents, Shi'a militia dead-enders, and what-have-you giving accurate target damage assessment back to the Iranians.
It would be hard to believe that there weren't.

[Kanye Wyoming]

That isn't a good comparison. Don't compare him to Bernie either. Most everyone in their 70's takes a laxative everyday and they're wondering what day of the week it is. If they aren't there yet they will be very soon. Trump is no exception. Nobody who qualifies for Required Minimum Distribution (SSI) should be able to run for president. The reason is you don't have that much longer to live. The fed ran the numbers. 9 years average.

Trump doesn't look all that healthy. Maybe Melania is wearing him out but I doubt it.


My father is older than Trump and sharp as a tack.


Based on those I’ve known and observed over the years, those over 70 are about equally divided between sharp as a tack and sufficiently healthy and energetic on the one hand, and wouldn’t trust to make an omelette on the other.

In the public arena, Bernie Sanders is all there and more at 78, to the point that he remembers all the Marxist BS he absorbed in college. HW was energetic and all there well into his 80s. Kissinger could have handled being Secy of State into his 80s. Elizabeth Warren strikes me as being just as capable now of hunting buffalo as she was in her youth on the reservation. And look at Bloomberg - 77 I think and still as aggressively ignorant a f*ck when it comes to guns as he ever was.

My one grandfather saw patients and made rounds until the day, when he was almost 89, that he started his sudden decline from congestive heart failure. My other grandfather ran a large organization and was active in lots of other things until he fell ill at 83. Could have handled being president until then. His wife, my grandmother, one of the toughest cookies ever to have roamed, was a force of nature until age 85 and could have handled being president until then. In the subsequent 10 years of her life she was still mostly there but when she became sweet and loving we knew the slide had irreversibly begun. The lady who sat next to us at synagogue for many years just recently died at 105, within a year after her 93-year-old boy toy husband died. Scout’s honor, until he died she was all there and an energizer bunny, serving on boards, and slapping away my hand whenever I held it out to help her up.

It depends entirely on the individual. Trump strikes me as one of those unusually energetic, driven types who is still as all there as he ever was (which probably means different things to different people) and who will keep on ticking, at least mentally, at close to full strength for several more years. If, like my grandmother, he starts to become sweet and loving such that you can imagine his Tweets being written by Mr. Rogers, we’ll know the time has come.

[Borderland]

Is it worth pointing out that most 70-year-olds do know what day it is, 'the fed' didn't run the numbers, 'the number' isn't 9 years, and 'Required Minimum Distribution (SSI)' isn't a thing?

Nah.:cool:

RMD is a thing for my neighbor. He complains about it frequently. He has a lot of money that he socked away into IRA's while he was working and doesn't need any distributions to live on. The IRS now says he has to take some of that money as income so he can pay the taxes on it before he dies. My guess is he has several 100K in the bank and has no loans unlike most people.

I should have said people in their 70's or 70-80. My error. I generally know what day of the week it is but not always. Mostly because I don't need to know. :D

If you were the president I'm sure someone in the vicinity would be more than happy to tell you.

[Baldanders]

Yeah, he doesn't have the 'president' thing figured out yet. The pro move would have been to get a lot of rest, go golfing and then hit a glitzy fundraiser.

Remember those days? I do.

I had the feeling today's speech was "shit, gotta quiet stock market fears!" Regardless of his level of sleep. Which I understand.

A bunch more of public appearances that look like this, however, would not be a great idea for his re-election chances.

I used to wonder if the rumors of him using presciption "diet pills" (amphetamines of one of the the myriad formulations on the market) were true. I think today convinced me they probably aren't. He could have used an Adderall an hour betore that performance.


I must say his speech was about 100% what I was expected. Neither side wants to go to war, and both sides know it.

The Iranian strike was "perfect" in the sense that was enough for the regime to be able to go the Iranian public and say "see, we met an act of war with an act of war! And the Americans mewed for peace. Just like they have since 1979."

An we can tell overselves, "see how pathetic the Iranians are! We could totally crush them! And we have really crippled them for a good long time by taking out one guy, and reset the always-ticking Iranian disastrous terrorist/nuclear attack threat clock. We're totally gonna kick some ass there.....someday. It's just not quite the right time now." For previous rounds of this self-congratulation, substitute "installation" for "one guy."

Man, the Iranians have been an awesome replacement for the USSR as our Big Bad. We didn't get to actually kill their top brass with impunity.

Although, it's obvious many still pine for the days of fighting Russians.

[fly out]

RMD is a thing for my neighbor. He complains about it frequently. He has a lot of money that he socked away into IRA's while he was working and doesn't need any distributions to live on. The IRS now says he has to take some of that money as income so he can pay the taxes on it before he dies. My guess is he has several 100K in the bank and has no loans like most people.

I should have said people in their 70's or 70-80. My error. I generally know what day of the week it is but not always. Mostly because I don't need to know. :D

Required Minimum Distributions are a thing. Just not an SSI thing.

As a tiny PSA for the three people still reading this thread: for most people, turning 70-1/2 was the trigger. December's SECURE Act changed it to 72 as of 1/1/2020. For most people. If you're closing in on 70, check with your CPA or financial peeps. Could make a difference.

[Wake27]

President Trump didn’t quite fulfill the orange man villain that some people wanted, so now we’ve got 20 posts criticizing how he looks?

The amount of desperation some people have to always paint him in a negative light is astounding.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

I've yet to see a President not look like shit after ~2'ish years in office. It's not a job conducive to good health and I do worry about Trump in that regard, he never struck me as a particularly healthy individual overall.

I look like hammered dog shit after flying on an airplane all day at 34. At 70 I don't think I'm going to fare better. Hell look at professional athletes who travel regularly by plane/car/bus, like basketball players. These guys are in the primes of their lives energy wise and they look like hammered dog shit quite often too and they are in peak physical condition in addition to being young and energetic.

__

Also, someone needs to let me know where in the Constitution it says that the Commander-in-Chief needs to consult with Congress every time he wants to wipe his ass or order the Navy SEALS to kill a terrorist...I'm getting a little tired of congress bitching, "He didn't tell us anything." And my response is, "And? No one gives a shit what you think, you aren't in charge."

[Wake27]

I've yet to see a President not look like shit after ~2'ish years in office. It's not a job conducive to good health and I do worry about Trump in that regard, he never struck me as a particularly healthy individual overall.

I look like hammered dog shit after flying on an airplane all day at 34. At 70 I don't think I'm going to fare better. Hell look at professional athletes who travel regularly by plane/car/bus, like basketball players. These guys are in the primes of their lives energy wise and they look like hammered dog shit quite often too and they are in peak physical condition in addition to being young and energetic.

__

Also, someone needs to let me know where in the Constitution it says that the Commander-in-Chief needs to consult with Congress every time he wants to wipe his ass or order the Navy SEALS to kill a terrorist...I'm getting a little tired of congress bitching, "He didn't tell us anything." And my response is, "And? No one gives a shit what you think, you aren't in charge."

Yeah, 100% agree on the latter. The biggest part that frustrates me is when they try to hide under the constitution, even though many are pretty much tearing it up when it comes to actual American citizens. Congress seems to rarely produce anything. Soleimani would have died of old age before Congress agreed on what to do with him. And even then the decision would have probably been to do nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JRB]

One more day down. I slept a whole 4 hours straight last night, too, and we had hot wings at the chow hall. Overall not too shabby.

I don't think anybody in my area believes the narrative about the airliner. The fact that Iran is refusing to release the black box stinks to high hell to me. If it happened exactly as they claim, the black box would clearly and decisively show exactly that. There's an aviation guy in my section that has ranted about this at length.

I think it's a step backwards to call it good after letting Iran claim 80 US service members KIA. That's telling all of these Iran-backed fuckheads that they can kill US service members without repercussions, when killing US personnel was exactly the thing that popped off this chapter of bullshit. If Iran didn't want 52 smoking holes (or 80) they shouldn't be allowed to claim otherwise, and I would have demanded they publicly retract the KIA/injured number and instead claim equipment and structure damage.

At this point it all makes us look like cowards and sets us further back. There's a whole lot of us here that were ready for some proper FU retaliation and now we're sitting on our thumbs. It sucks. I expect things to heat up and get shittier in Iraq as a result.


Changing subjects a bit: Let's say that some dude has a home built AK kit built Chinese Type 56S clone that's a hot mess of tolerance creep, and a loaded 100 round Norinco drum and he wants to have some bump fire fun. So let's say he loads up that drum and hangs a B8 target at 10 yards, and bump fires away. But the gun jams several times and he has to eject a lot of dud rounds. Chances are still decent he got at least a few 9, 10, and X hits there shooting that much ammo. You might even zoom in on the black and it may look like a good shot group. So he does exactly that, and takes his pictures for Instagram showing his tight shot group and claims they were all super-fast and precise controlled pairs and he tactically did great work from his Hungarian 20 round magazine full of super-fancy Hornady ammo. If you only saw the Instagram pic, it might seem impressive, and you might think he had a nice AK and knew how to use it.

What isn't told in that Instagram pic is how he went hot on the firing line before calling the range hot, and it was only the proactive use of electronic muffs that made it a serious protocol violation with his fellow range goers, instead of a genuinely dangerous act. You're also not seeing the fact that he dumped a 100 round drum and had to cycle a bunch of jams and duds because it's not good Hornady stuff he's shooting, it's crappy old surplus ammo that wasn't stored well.

Bottom line, he used a silly technique to make a bunch of noise with a malfunctioning weapon firing shitty ammo that impressed absolutely nobody else at the range, even with those X-ring hits. Might impress the 'gram, though.





Except for JRB. The matrix most def doesn’t have that fucking guy. :)

At this point, a blue-pill trip to a pristine beach with my smokin' hot wife, with booze-loaded frozen foo foo umbrella cocktails in our hands, a full bar behind our bungalow and a pig getting spit-roasted before the dance party starts sounds a hell of a lot better than my red-pill experience here!:D

[Hambo]

President Trump didn’t quite fulfill the orange man villain that some people wanted, so now we’ve got 20 posts criticizing how he looks?

The amount of desperation some people have to always paint him in a negative light is astounding.


To clarify my post on his condition, I think he has, or had, a cold. Given the time of year and the number of people he comes in contact with, it would only be surprising if he didn't. I also think his "deranged speech" (per WaPO) was not; it was the prepared boilerplate I would expect after such an incident.

[Zincwarrior]

I've yet to see a President not look like shit after ~2'ish years in office. It's not a job conducive to good health and I do worry about Trump in that regard, he never struck me as a particularly healthy individual overall.

I look like hammered dog shit after flying on an airplane all day at 34. At 70 I don't think I'm going to fare better. Hell look at professional athletes who travel regularly by plane/car/bus, like basketball players. These guys are in the primes of their lives energy wise and they look like hammered dog shit quite often too and they are in peak physical condition in addition to being young and energetic.

__

Also, someone needs to let me know where in the Constitution it says that the Commander-in-Chief needs to consult with Congress every time he wants to wipe his ass or order the Navy SEALS to kill a terrorist...I'm getting a little tired of congress bitching, "He didn't tell us anything." And my response is, "And? No one gives a shit what you think, you aren't in charge."

Only Congress has the power to declare war.

[HCountyGuy]

Only Congress has the power to declare war.

And your point is?

He gave the order to smite a POS who was long overdue who was actively involved in coordinating recent attacks against U.S. personnel. Shitbird asked for it and foolishly put himself in a position to receive some well-deserved retaliation. Good riddance.

Where was all this outrage during the Obama administration? I’m not the biggest fan of Trump but this double-standard has gone past the point of ridiculous to damn near insanity necessitating mental evaluation.

People need to remember Iran’s been a thorn in our ass for DECADES!

[OlongJohnson]

I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone mentioning the AUMF. Does it apply to Soleimani or not? If not, why not? If it does, why isn't the Red Team talking about that fact? Or is it because a new Big Bang occurred in November 2016 and no information about the universe prior to that made it through?

[BehindBlueI's]

Where was all this outrage during the Obama administration? I’m not the biggest fan of Trump but this double-standard has gone past the point of ridiculous to damn near insanity necessitating mental evaluation.

If you didn't see it you weren't looking in the right places. Search "droner in chief" or "Obama drone warrior" for a reminder of some 7 years of outrage and at least one lawsuit over drone strikes.


Americans were disturbed when information came to light about a secret policy of torture. And we should be even more disturbed about a secret policy of killing," Hina Shamsi, director of the national security project at the ACLU, told ABC News.

"There's something very wrong with a program that assumes guilt by association as permissible basis for killing," said Shamsi.


... protested the CIA's secret drone program calling it unlawful and dangerous, and saying it unduly imperils innocent lives and the security of the U.S. Some say it sets a precedent that other countries like China or Russia might cite in targeting their own alleged enemies of the state.

"As the drone campaign wears on, hatred of America is increasing...wrote Dennis Blair, former Director of National Intelligence in a New York Times op-ed late last year. "



"I cannot comprehend how my teenage grandson was killed by a Hellfire missile, how nothing was left of him except small pieces of flesh," Nasser told Time magazine in October 2011.


"I urge the American people to ... expose the hypocrisy of the 2009 Nobel (Peace) Prize laureate. To some, he may be that. To me and my family, he is nothing more than a child killer."

Obama has tried to disguise his illegal drone program with the patina of legal legitimacy

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10730664581031404447&q=Al-Aulaqi+v.+Panetta&hl=en&as_sdt=800006&as_vis=1

[jrm]

And your point is?

He gave the order to smite a POS who was long overdue who was actively involved in coordinating recent attacks against U.S. personnel. Shitbird asked for it and foolishly put himself in a position to receive some well-deserved retaliation. Good riddance.

Where was all this outrage during the Obama administration? I’m not the biggest fan of Trump but this double-standard has gone past the point of ridiculous to damn near insanity necessitating mental evaluation.

People need to remember Iran’s been a thorn in our ass for DECADES!

The difference is he was a high level official of a disliked but recognized government not a unrecognized illegitimate terrorist organization. No one at least here is seems to be questioning the targeting of just a terrorist like the Obama and G W Bush administration did and the Trump administration continues to do. It is the targeting of a general of a country we are not actually at war with that is problematic.

Edited to add as mentioned above there are certainly critics of the drone killing program but this is a step beyond that.

[JRB]

The difference is he was a high level official of a disliked but recognized government not a unrecognized illegitimate terrorist organization. No one at least here is seems to be questioning the targeting of just a terrorist like the Obama and G W Bush administration did and the Trump administration continues to do. It is the targeting of a general of a country we are not actually at war with that is problematic.

If they want legitimacy, fight us as a uniformed, flag wearing legitimate government and adhere to the fucking laws of war.

If you want to kill us with IED's strapped to kids and hidden piles of trash, machine gun your own unarmed civilians that dare protest against your corrupt fucking rule, fire your fucking Estes rocket kits at us when you're pissed off, and strap limpet mines to civilian oil tankers and take them hostage like fucking pirates...

Expect to get fucking treated like a fucking piece of shit pirate when we get you. Fuck the flag you claim.

[jrm]

If they want legitimacy, fight us as a uniformed, flag wearing legitimate government and adhere to the fucking laws of war.

If you want to kill us with IED's strapped to kids and hidden piles of trash, machine gun your own unarmed civilians that dare protest against your corrupt fucking rule, fire your fucking Estes rocket kits at us when you're pissed off, and strap limpet mines to civilian oil tankers and take them hostage like fucking pirates...

Expect to get fucking treated like a fucking piece of shit pirate when we get you. Fuck the flag you claim.

If this happening and we want to address it we need to declare war which is done by Congress who would need to be properly informed to do so. So are you now going to admit you have been flying off the handle or are you just going to admit you don’t give a fuck about the Constitution as long as it’s your guy in charge?

[blues]

To clarify my post on his condition, I think he has, or had, a cold. Given the time of year and the number of people he comes in contact with, it would only be surprising if he didn't. I also think his "deranged speech" (per WaPO) was not; it was the prepared boilerplate I would expect after such an incident.

If he wouldn't paint himself into a corner with his tweets concerning what he's going to do if Iran does such and such...he wouldn't look as much like a joke when he takes none of the action that his bluster promised.

I don't think any sane person wants war when it can be (reasonably) avoided...but the net effect of his spewing hot air is making us appear weak, and him a paper tiger.

(I learned a long time ago not to write checks with my mouth that my ass can't (or won't) cash.)

[JRB]

If this happening and we want to address it we need to declare war which is done by Congress who would need to be properly informed to do so. So are you now going to admit you have been flying off the handle or are you just going to admit you don’t give a fuck about the Constitution as long as it’s your guy in charge?

Going point by point:

-President Trump is not, emphatically, IS NOT 'my guy'. He's my Commander-in-Chief and I'll respect that position and hope like hell for steady hands on the wheel, same as I did for former President Obama, and for former President Bush before him. I would like to believe that it's safe to say that nobody was happy about the candidates for POTUS in 2016. 2020 doesn't look a whole lot better.

I know, it's astonishing to think that people can hold different politics than the current CiC and still respect the position and hope for the best instead of being an incessantly whiny bitch about it for smarmy social cred with other vapid oxygen-wasting fuckheads. Imagine, if you will, seeing that to your left and then seeing a bunch of tinfoil-hat fuddbilly armchair blabbering heffalumps that get their jowel's a shaking with OMG JADE HELM, FEMA INTERNMENT CAMPS! SANDY HOOK WAS A HOAKS! DUH GUBBERMINT GONNA KILL ALL DA GOOD CHRISTIANS! Kind of assholes.
Life is fucking weird and people are fucking weird, so for fuck's sake do your fellow Americans the courtesy of not digitally bucketing them all as 'Team A' or 'Team 1'.

-Because formal declarations of war have been an ongoing requirement for everything we've been doing since WWII... right :rolleyes: Both sides are guilty of that overwhelming problem and tendency so don't lay it at the feet of current events. Why are you acting and phrasing that like it's suddenly a brand new current-administration fucking problem?

-Congress hasn't exactly been inspiring a lot of confidence with their collective behavior, or where and how they're focusing their efforts. I wouldn't include them in my decisions either unless absolutely necessary were I the POTUS right now.

-When I can get through an entire election cycle without worrying about how both sides are trying to fuck with the civil rights of American citizens, then and only then will I have more than a passing thought to spare about the exjudicial execution of TCN terrorist assholes. Especially ones that have been directly responsible for killing or maiming hundreds if not thousands of my brothers and sisters in uniform with traps and bombs like a fucking coward.

-Furthermore, then-President Obama's the guy that went ham using drone strikes on known terrorists including known American citizens. So please check 'your guy' before talking smack. If being a piece of shit terrorist that blows up civilians and American service members can justify exjudicial execution of an American citizen that happens to be a jihading terrorist asshole, it sure as fuck justifies killing Iranian assholes actively starting shit inside a country we're trying to stabilize.

[blues]

If he wouldn't paint himself into a corner with his tweets concerning what he's going to do if Iran does such and such...he wouldn't look as much like a joke when he takes none of the action that his bluster promised.

I don't think any sane person wants war when it can be (reasonably) avoided...but the net effect of his spewing hot air is making us appear weak, and him a paper tiger.

(I learned a long time ago not to write checks with my mouth that my ass can't (or won't) cash.)

I don't mean to harp on this but it truly pains me. All I keep thinking about is how much it reminds me of this scene from Tombstone...and it pains me even more when I feel my friends like JRB are being improperly utilized and employed as a result. All of this could be averted by simply not declaring military policy decisions via tweet. What foreign leader is going to take his next set of threats seriously?



https://youtu.be/SnXgVcrcyWM

[Yung]

I'm curious as to whether any members of this forum had any high school or college aged relatives in their family who were genuinely concerned about being drafted.

[jrm]

Life is fucking weird and people are fucking weird, so for fuck's sake do your fellow Americans the courtesy of not digitally bucketing them all as 'Team A' or 'Team 1'.

Maybe take your own advice. It’s clear we aren’t getting anywhere others can take what they want from it.

[Zincwarrior]

I'm curious as to whether any members of this forum had any high school or college aged relatives in their family who were genuinely concerned about being drafted.

That buzz genuinely popped up in the daughter's group.

[HCountyGuy]

If you didn't see it you weren't looking in the right places. Search "droner in chief" or "Obama drone warrior" for a reminder of some 7 years of outrage and at least one lawsuit over drone strikes.










https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10730664581031404447&q=Al-Aulaqi+v.+Panetta&hl=en&as_sdt=800006&as_vis=1

I fully acknowledge the criticism was there but the disproportionate outrage particularly from scum-sucking Congress-critters angry the Orange Man beat the Suicider General is what’s chapped my ass.


It is the targeting of a general of a country we are not actually at war with that is problematic

We may not be “at war” with them, but they’ve been at war with us for quite some time and have had a role in the death of enough of our troops we should have turned Tehran in to a damn crater as a warning shot.

As for Congressional condemnation of the whole drone strike, gee I wonder who the sack-less folks are who have allowed Iran to continue their shenanigans through attempting to placate them continually. Funny though, they’re the same sorts who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement refusing to enforce unconstitutional gun laws but god forbid we get aggressive with a nation that has made it clear they want us all dead.

I will say that in light of the rocket attack failing to kill anyone that Trump walking back on his threats and instead deciding to de-escalate like folks were bitching he needed to do (damned if you do, damned if you don’t) was probably smart. I imagine had there been an American casualty Iran would be little more than a chapter in the history books.

[Borderland]

I'm curious as to whether any members of this forum had any high school or college aged relatives in their family who were genuinely concerned about being drafted.

Probably some people here that were drafted or maybe I don't understand the question.

[Stephanie B]

Even my pro-Trump students were tittering at all the stumbling he was doing during his speech.

He seems addled and not well-rested at all.

I have a suspicion that something is playing out behind the scenes there.

[Stephanie B]

Whens the last time you stayed up all night at the age of 73 assessing something this huge and important not to mention developing a course of action, gave an internationally viewed speech and were a chipper little squirrel the next morning.

Presidenting is not an old man's game.

(Yes, I think that Biden, Bloomberg, Warren and Sanders are also too old for the job.

[Stephanie B]

If they want legitimacy, fight us as a uniformed, flag wearing legitimate government and adhere to the fucking laws of war.

If you want to kill us with IED's strapped to kids and hidden piles of trash, machine gun your own unarmed civilians that dare protest against your corrupt fucking rule, fire your fucking Estes rocket kits at us when you're pissed off, and strap limpet mines to civilian oil tankers and take them hostage like fucking pirates...

Expect to get fucking treated like a fucking piece of shit pirate when we get you. Fuck the flag you claim.

Right, and remind me how many times we tried to assassinate the head of the KGB when the Soviets were funding and assisting the PLO, the Red Brigades and every other fricking terrorist group out there, except for the guys who took over the Nakitomi Tower. Conversely, how many times did the Soviets try whack the head of the CIA or Charlie Wilson when the US was sending weapons to the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan. And then there was/is the Israeli assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists. And our use of damn-near invisible drones to drop weapons on people we disapprove of.

Guess it all depends where one stands.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Presidenting is not an old man's game.

(Yes, I think that Biden, Bloomberg, Warren and Sanders are also too old for the job.


Tom Friedman has a pretty good column today about the situation. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/08/opinion/trump-iran-attack.html

Good opening paragraph and some sensible suggestions to the the two old men:


When I step back and get some distance on this latest clash between President Trump and Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, it becomes obvious to me that what we have here are two bald men fighting over a comb.

We have two old men, with old ideas, fighting over a country that neither should want — Iraq — and over a 20th-century resource — oil — that is decreasingly relevant to a 21st-century nation’s economy and for a strategic goal — to dominate the Middle East — that no sane leader should want to achieve, because all that you win is a bill.

In short, it’s just so much fury that will change so little.

As a 72 year old man, who still has some brains left (along with my compadres of similar age), we all think that this is too old for the presidency. Biden and Trump both have declining faculties and personalities. Bernie and Warren still might have it together (this is independent of their policies). But even the ones who are OK now can go into sharp decline quickly. Worked for a guy who was brilliant, won his field's Nobel level prize, then at this age, he started to microstoke, became irrational and then had the big one. We did see a year of ranting.

[Stephanie B]

All of this could be averted by simply not declaring military policy decisions via tweet. What foreign leader is going to take his next set of threats seriously?

It bothers me when it seems that to much of the world, the reasonable party in this most recent crisis are the ones in Tehran. "Impulsive," "erratic" and "unstable" are adjectives that used to stick to the Iranians.

Beyond that, Trump has spent the last three years peeing in the NATO pool. Now he's near-demanding that the NATO nations help out. I don't imagine that other than Boris, that Euro leaders are going to jump to Trump's commands.

[UNK]

Presidenting is not an old man's game.

(Yes, I think that Biden, Bloomberg, Warren and Sanders are also too old for the job.


Again...when is the last time you had to stay up all night dealing with something of monumental importance?
The point of reference is when. And before you did that did u sleep prior or was it unexpected up all day then up all night too? Because all that matters.
As an employee working 12 night shifts its my point of reference, or even going back to military duty and pulling all night guard then falling out for PT the next morning. If you havent experienced it then you have no frame of reference.
Also you come across as a dedicated Never Trumper so I dont think anything he does is going to escape criticism from someone with that mindset.

[Stephanie B]

Again...when is the last time you had to stay up all night dealing with something of monumental importance?
The point of reference is when. And before you did that did u sleep prior or was it unexpected up all day then up all night too? Because all that matters.
As an employee working 12 night shifts its my point of reference, or even going back to military duty and pulling all night guard then falling out for PT the next morning. If you havent experienced it then you have no frame of reference.
Also you come across as a dedicated Never Trumper so I dont think anything he does is going to escape criticism from someone with that mindset.

I "come across as a dedicated Never Trumper"? I take it that you not read much of what I've said here. Damned skippy I am. I've followed Trump's antics for a few decades; I wouldn't trust him to work a hot dog cart in Poughkeepsie.

The rest of this is, to my mind, crap. I'm not the one who is presidenting at an age when the big decision should be whether or not to hit the early-dinner-half-price buffet. What I've done and when I've done it is irrelevant.

[RJ]

Stephanie and I are not usually on the same side but I’d not describe her as a Never Trumper. At least as I understand it.

Can’t say my opinion of Trump is much higher tho. Kinda shows how crappy the alternative was for me to vote for him.

OTOH my 401K is doing pretty well. :)

[UNK]

Stephanie and I are not usually on the same side but I’d not describe her as a Never Trumper. At least as I understand it.

Can’t say my opinion of Trump is much higher tho. Kinda shows how crappy the alternative was for me to vote for him.

OTOH my 401K is doing pretty well. :)

🙄 She just said she is. And her post prior to this bear that out.

[RJ]

[emoji849] She just said she is. And her post prior to this bear that out.

Must be the Delta Lounge Coffee. You might be right.

I’ll let her clarify. :)

[Borderland]

I don't mean to harp on this but it truly pains me. All I keep thinking about is how much it reminds me of this scene from Tombstone...and it pains me even more when I feel my friends like JRB are being improperly utilized and employed as a result. All of this could be averted by simply not declaring military policy decisions via tweet. What foreign leader is going to take his next set of threats seriously?



https://youtu.be/SnXgVcrcyWM

That goes back to not having figured out the president thing. Mostly I think it's a 'I have to have an audience' ego stroke. Another reason why he watches the news on Fox (about him) every morning. When they don't build up his ego he tweets them down like he does everyone that crosses him.

I don't tweet and I don't know anyone who does. Mostly they text ( boomer/millennial) or use Instagram (younger generations). I'm trying to figure out who his adoring audience is. Maybe his twitter account is his official position on all things of any importance to him but it leaves a lot of people out of the loop, including our military.

[Borderland]

It bothers me when it seems that to much of the world, the reasonable party in this most recent crisis are the ones in Tehran. "Impulsive," "erratic" and "unstable" are adjectives that used to stick to the Iranians.

Beyond that, Trump has spent the last three years peeing in the NATO pool. Now he's near-demanding that the NATO nations help out. I don't imagine that other than Boris, that Euro leaders are going to jump to Trump's commands.

Nope. NATO's seen enough. Most of them are leaving Iraq. It's become a pissing match between Iran and the US. Coalition will be gone soon enough.

[fly out]

I don't mean to harp on this but it truly pains me. All I keep thinking about is how much it reminds me of this scene from Tombstone...and it pains me even more when I feel my friends like JRB are being improperly utilized and employed as a result. All of this could be averted by simply not declaring military policy decisions via tweet. What foreign leader is going to take his next set of threats seriously?




I just don't see it that way. Soleimani tries to reenact 1979, the mullahs tell Trump that there's nothing he can do, and a day later the man that is being described as the second-most powerful/second-most popular person in Iran is eliminated very publicly while meeting with puppet militia leaders in a foreign country. What I took from what Trump was saying is that his red line was killing an American, and that didn't happen. He added additional economic sanctions, which I assume he viewed as a measured response. Whether they will be effective, I cannot say.

Had Americans been killed during the missile attack, and Trump did nothing, I'd take your point.

As for points raised above about Soleimani himself, he wasn't simply an Iranian general in any traditional sense of the word. Quds was designated by the Bush and Obama administrations as a terrorist organization, and the Trump administration added in the Revolutionary Guard last year. Soleimani was individually named and sanctioned multiple times for his role in international terror, and not just by the US. In many regards, Soleimani was Quds.

[Totem Polar]

Funny though, they’re the same sorts who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement refusing to enforce unconstitutional gun laws but god forbid we get aggressive with a nation that has made it clear they want us all dead.

It’s strange times, for sure.

[farscott]

If this happening and we want to address it we need to declare war which is done by Congress who would need to be properly informed to do so. So are you now going to admit you have been flying off the handle or are you just going to admit you don’t give a fuck about the Constitution as long as it’s your guy in charge?

While I am not an attorney, I am not sure that the attack violated the Constitution due to the War Powers Act. The high level summary is as follows.


The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30-day withdrawal period, without a congressional authorization for use of military force (AUMF) or a declaration of war by the United States.

So Congress was notified with forty-hours of the commitment (maybe depending upon when the operation was approved as the notification was on 04-JAN and the operation occurred on 03-JAN) and the action is complete. One could also argue that the Congress has already authorized the action due to Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq and Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists. While passed back when Bush 41 was POTUS, those engagements never ended and are the reasons the personnel are already deployed in Iraq.

[Borderland]

I "come across as a dedicated Never Trumper"? I take it that you not read much of what I've said here. Damned skippy I am. I've followed Trump's antics for a few decades; I wouldn't trust him to work a hot dog cart in Poughkeepsie.

The rest of this is, to my mind, crap. I'm not the one who is presidenting at an age when the big decision should be whether or not to hit the early-dinner-half-price buffet. What I've done and when I've done it is irrelevant.

I was in the neverHillary club. Still am but she's fading out of the public eye pretty fast. At least until Trump digs her up again to boost his ego. I've watched her ever since her and Bill tried to run a real estate scam in Arkansas. Slimey pair those two. So you can form opinions that are concrete set into stone just by living awhile.

I'm not a dedicated never Trumper because honestly I didn't know who he was before 2015. I have to give him credit for a few things. Nobody can be a total loss. I'll just put him in the same category as Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford, neither won reelection. If he happens to get reelected I'll upgrade his status the Bill Clinton category.

[blues]

I just don't see it that way. Soleimani tries to reenact 1979, the mullahs tell Trump that there's nothing he can do, and a day later the man that is being described as the second-most powerful/second-most popular person in Iran is eliminated very publicly while meeting with puppet militia leaders in a foreign country. What I took from what Trump was saying is that his red line was killing an American, and that didn't happen. He added additional economic sanctions, which I assume he viewed as a measured response. Whether they will be effective, I cannot say.

Had Americans been killed during the missile attack, and Trump did nothing, I'd take your point.



I don't think we are far apart in our points of view. My biggest point is that it is far preferable to keep your cards close to your vest rather than making rash statements about what you plan to do on twitter...only to not do them. (And I agree that restraint where restraint is appropriate is preferable to launching a war to save face.)

The bad actors don't need to hear what we plan to do in advance...whether in law enforcement, military or foreign policy. And what you don't say in a tweet can't be used against you later on.

[RoyGBiv]

As for Congressional condemnation of the whole drone strike, gee I wonder who the sack-less folks are who have allowed Iran to continue their shenanigans through attempting to placate them continually. Funny though, they’re the same sorts who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement refusing to enforce unconstitutional gun laws but god forbid we get aggressive with a nation that has made it clear they want us all dead.

QFT


Right, and remind me how many times we tried to assassinate the head of the KGB when the Soviets were funding and assisting the PLO, the Red Brigades and every other fricking terrorist group out there, except for the guys who took over the Nakitomi Tower.
IIRC, we were putting full faith and effort in countering the Soviets and pretty much every US politician was on board. MAD dictated different tactics in that relationship. Iran today creates trouble on a scale they are far too puny to defend, are pursuing nuclear weapons and what do we do? We give them planeloads of cash and a treaty that lets them build a bomb, but only far enough after Obama leaves office that his legacy might deflect the blame.

[fly out]

NeverTrumpers had to be Republicans or (nominally) conservatives to start with. They were committed to stopping Trump from getting the Republican nomination.

Progressives and leftists who happen to hate Trump aren't NeverTrumpers. They just hate Trump.

[Stephanie B]

...who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement ...

That worked out really well in Ohio about fifty years ago... {/sarc}

It would not surprise me one whit if a lot of M-4s ended up "falling off of the back of a truck" in such an eventuality.

[Stephanie B]

Progressives and leftists who happen to hate Trump aren't NeverTrumpers. They just hate Trump.

Sorry, but I don't *hate* Trump. I have no regard for him, I think he's a low-wattage narcissist who may be exhibiting symptoms of a decline in his mental facilities. But I don't *hate* him.

It's like saluting a senior officer: One salutes the uniform, not necessarily the clown who is wearing it.

[jrm]

While I am not an attorney, I am not sure that the attack violated the Constitution due to the War Powers Act. The high level summary is as follows.



So Congress was notified with forty-hours of the commitment (maybe depending upon when the operation was approved as the notification was on 04-JAN and the operation occurred on 03-JAN) and the action is complete. One could also argue that the Congress has already authorized the action due to Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq and Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists. While passed back when Bush 41 was POTUS, those engagements never ended and are the reasons the personnel are already deployed in Iraq.

The War Powers Resolution requires “(1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” It is not a block grant for the president to do whatever he wants for a limited period of time. I find it hard to call the status quo for over 10 years an emergency. Of the two potential congressional authorizations cited one is specifically related to Iraq not Iran the other is specifically related to the September 11 planners, perpetrators, authorizer, aiders, and harborers. I’m am not aware of Iran being any of those. From Rand Paul and Mike Lee’s reaction it does not appear that the senate has been given any information that would contradict my understanding. There may be some theory that makes the strike constitutional I honestly don’t know. The government is supposed to be limited in power they need to explain why they are authorized to take action; not take action and see if anyone can come up with a reason they aren’t. That goes for the executive and legislative branches, Republicans and Democrats, Trump and any future or past elected official. After they present a reason they are empowered to take an action then the judiciary and citizens can have a real discussion on wether it is lawful or appropriate.

[RoyGBiv]

National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2012(Pub.L. 112–81 (http://legislink.org/us/pl-112-81))

Emphasis mine...

Subtitle D—Counterterrorism
SEC. 1021. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF
THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS
PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY
FORCE.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Congress affirms that the authority of the
President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to
the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40;
50 U.S.C. 1541 note) includes the authority for the Armed Forces
of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection
(b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
(b) COVERED PERSONS.—A covered person under this section
is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided
the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001,
or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported
al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged
in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners,
including any person who has committed a belligerent act or
has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy
forces.

[RoyGBiv]

Gen. Keane: Iran's 'feeble response' was a result of Trump's 'full-throttle' approach (https://www.foxnews.com/media/gen-jack-keane-iran-feeble-trump-soleimani)


Keane said he believes Iran's leaders realized that Trump would authorize a "full-throttle" response if they had undertaken a more significant retaliation.

"We would have taken down all eight of their refineries, most of the power plants in the country that drive the electricity grid, and we would have taken down their cruise missiles and all of their strategic short-range and ballistic missiles," he said. "They would have been done at that point."

[nalesq]

Right, and remind me how many times we tried to assassinate the head of the KGB when the Soviets were funding and assisting the PLO, the Red Brigades and every other fricking terrorist group out there, except for the guys who took over the Nakitomi Tower. Conversely, how many times did the Soviets try whack the head of the CIA or Charlie Wilson when the US was sending weapons to the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan. And then there was/is the Israeli assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists. And our use of damn-near invisible drones to drop weapons on people we disapprove of.

Guess it all depends where one stands.

Yeah, I get why, as a general rule, it might be a bad idea to go down the road of whacking high-ranking officials from foreign countries.

But to me what makes this particular situation different is the sheer scale of Suleimani’s shenanigans directed at killing Americans combined with the fact that he actually showed up in Baghdad to own and oversee the shenanigans personally. That stepped over a line.

He is kind of like the villain at the end of Lethal Weapon 2 who lit up Riggs, and then somehow reasonably expected Murtaugh to just leave him be right then and there under the cloak of “diplomatic immunity.” Sorry, but there comes a point where that just doesn’t work anymore.


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[fly out]

Yeah, I get why, as a general rule, it might be a bad idea to go down the road of whacking high-ranking officials from foreign countries.

But to me what makes this particular situation different is the sheer scale of Suleimani’s shenanigans directed at killing Americans combined with the fact that he actually showed up in Baghdad to own and oversee the shenanigans personally. That stepped over a line.

He is kind of like the villain at the end of Lethal Weapon 2 who lit up Riggs, and then somehow reasonably expected Murtaugh to just leave him be right then and there under the cloak of “diplomatic immunity.” Sorry, but there comes a point where that just doesn’t work anymore.


According to the Obama-era sanctions filing, Soleimani traveled under an Iranian diplomatic passport.

46967

[TGS]

FWIW, travelling under a diplomatic passport grants no form of immunity.

[Borderland]

Keane said he believes Iran's leaders realized that Trump would authorize a "full-throttle" response if they had undertaken a more significant retaliation.

"We would have taken down all eight of their refineries, most of the power plants in the country that drive the electricity grid, and we would have taken down their cruise missiles and all of their strategic short-range and ballistic missiles," he said. "They would have been done at that point."

That's exactly what would have happened. The US has the capability to launch cruise missiles from ships or aircraft (B-52) that never enter Iranian airspace. Stand off range is about 1000 miles for the latest air launched missile.

[Borderland]

QFT


IIRC, we were putting full faith and effort in countering the Soviets and pretty much every US politician was on board. MAD dictated different tactics in that relationship. Iran today creates trouble on a scale they are far too puny to defend, are pursuing nuclear weapons and what do we do? We give them planeloads of cash and a treaty that lets them build a bomb, but only far enough after Obama leaves office that his legacy might deflect the blame.

Eventually Iran will have a bomb. My guess is once they have the capability to deliver one the country will go dark. Israel will make sure of that.

[fly out]

FWIW, travelling under a diplomatic passport grants no form of immunity.

That depends on the country you're standing in with said diplomatic passport, but nalesq and I were just reliving a little LWII.

[TGS]

That depends on the country you're standing in with said diplomatic passport, but nalesq and I were just reliving a little LWII.

What country grants any level of immunity to the bearer of a diplomatic passport simply for possessing such dip book?

Immunity is granted when an individual is accredited by a host nation, or in the weakest form of derivative immunity when declared on diplomatic note for accompanying a head of state or ministerial level official.

I'm unaware of anywhere that grants immunity for simply possessing a dip book. If you know, let me in on the secret so I can start changing my flight routing when working.

[NEPAKevin]

If it was Hilary he’d have killed himself recently.

I don't think they are each other's type. Just look at his history of wives and alleged mistresses and don't make me play the (NSFW or anywhere else for that matter)Cathy O'Brien (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRTs4H8Bw7IKf8JtPFQ-mPvVuPvUOkqAU) card for Hillary. :eek:

[Hambo]

Yeah, I get why, as a general rule, it might be a bad idea to go down the road of whacking high-ranking officials from foreign countries.

We didn't smoke the head of the French Foreign Legion. We killed a guy who was commanding a force that we and other countries consider to be a terrorist organization, supporting other terrorist organizations in the world.

[farscott]

The War Powers Resolution requires “(1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” It is not a block grant for the president to do whatever he wants for a limited period of time. I find it hard to call the status quo for over 10 years an emergency. Of the two potential congressional authorizations cited one is specifically related to Iraq not Iran the other is specifically related to the September 11 planners, perpetrators, authorizer, aiders, and harborers. I’m am not aware of Iran being any of those. From Rand Paul and Mike Lee’s reaction it does not appear that the senate has been given any information that would contradict my understanding. There may be some theory that makes the strike constitutional I honestly don’t know. The government is supposed to be limited in power they need to explain why they are authorized to take action; not take action and see if anyone can come up with a reason they aren’t. That goes for the executive and legislative branches, Republicans and Democrats, Trump and any future or past elected official. After they present a reason they are empowered to take an action then the judiciary and citizens can have a real discussion on wether it is lawful or appropriate.

With all due respect, the scope of the powers provided under the War Powers Resolution is not exactly well defined. Administrations of both parties, back to Richard Nixon's, have stretched the language. Examples include the intervention in Libya back in 2011 and Syria in 2012. The latter engagement ran for almost four years under the Obama Administration and continued under the Trump Administration and included ground forces (which violated the few terms Congress supplied) and Tomahawk missile attacks in the spring of 2017. The terrorist resolution was also used as authorization to assassinate an American citizen who had joined a terrorist group. While Congress has always complained about POTUS abusing the subject resolutions, Congress has also not passed legislation to clarify the extremely muddy waters or to put limits on POTUS and the role of Commander-in-Chief.

One could also argue that knowledge of an attack on US forces and/or diplomatic personnel and embassies is enough to trigger the "national emergency" clause and the Iraq resolution applies, especially as said terrorist was attacked in Iraq and the target of the imminent attack was said to be Embassy Baghdad. All in all, this operation, when looking at the history of how administrations have exercised military power, is pretty minor. The biggest factor in the uproar is the deceased was a general officer of a nation state's military and the oh-so-public nature of the attack.

In any event, Iran's reprisal (communicated three hours before and with an apparent effort to minimize causalities) appears to have been tempered by the understanding that President Trump does not believe in proportionate responses. It seems to have worked in this instance. My concern is that this success will embolden him, and the next belligerent may not react in the same manner. Egos have no place in diplomacy or in military action.

[txdpd]

Maybe Trump had a hangover from celebrating his stock being at all time highs before his impeachment trial.
If Iran was giving Trump a slap, it was a slap on the back.

[fly out]

... let me in on the secret so I can start changing my flight routing when working.

Pretty sure that's not how it works. I believe quite a few holders of Caribbean diplomatic passports found out the hard way that a diplomatic passport isn't a get-of-jail-free card when traveling. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think that whole racket was a honeypot.

Anyway, it's been my impression that the arrangements are bilateral conventions. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the U.S. has few, to none of them.

[TGS]

Pretty sure that's not how it works.

I understand that ;) . There's a fair amount of sarcasm in my post. I'm speaking from a point of professional knowledge/experience on diplomatic passports and the Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic and Consular Relations as it establishes immunities.

[Baldanders]

I'm curious as to whether any members of this forum had any high school or college aged relatives in their family who were genuinely concerned about being drafted.

As I have said, even my rural, huntin' and shooting, Trump- loving students were freaking out abput WWIII and a draft. (Not all, but a majority.)

Panic spreads quickly. I remember a civics teacher freaking out that we would all be drafted during Gulf War I in high school.

I would say well under 25% of our citizens understand why a draft is nearly impossible.

I told my kids that as long as anyone in our military remembers Vietnam, that shit ain't happening, and my father's story about guys offering $50 bucks a pop for my Dad's urine so they could pass the piss test to GET OUT of Vietnam.


In other news...how did the Iranians manage to shoot down a passenger jet taking off from their own airport?

[Yung]

I read your post about your students earlier. I wanted to know more along the lines about younger people in member's families.

[TiroFijo]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/09/crashed-iran-plane-trying-return-airport-initial-report-says/

[Borderland]

Pretty sure that's not how it works. I believe quite a few holders of Caribbean diplomatic passports found out the hard way that a diplomatic passport isn't a get-of-jail-free card when traveling. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think that whole racket was a honeypot.

Anyway, it's been my impression that the arrangements are bilateral conventions. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the U.S. has few, to none of them.

The US used to have bilateral conventions with foreign governments. A lot of it depended on what gov't it was (who was running the show) and why you happened to be there in the first place. Immunity was a thing where I was. The police/customs officials knew who you were and if they didn't they found out PDQ with a phone call to the command on your ID card. I traveled freely in that country for 2 years and was never detained more than a few minutes until the ID was verified. The reason, I was attached to a military command (not a US base) and the military was pretty high up on the food chain unlike it is in this country. So at least at that point in time it was a thing. I'm not sure how things work these days but I can tell you the US no longer has the relationship with that country that they did when I was there. The US military is no longer there and not many had a clue when we were there.

[RevolverRob]

Only Congress has the power to declare war.

I’m hardly a legal scholar. But my understanding is, killing Solemani in Iran or a place where we do not have active combat deployments would be considered an act of war. Whacking the dude in Iraq when he was in town meeting with known terrorists - makes him nothing more than another dead terrorist scumbag. Oh he was an Iranian general? Probably should have stayed in Iran and he’d still be alive. But in Iraq? Just collateral damage.

And also, we don’t need a declaration of war to kill terrorists, because they are non-state actors.

[TGS]

The US used to have bilateral conventions with foreign governments. A lot of it depended on what gov't it was (who was running the show) and why you happened to be there in the first place. Immunity was a thing where I was. The police/customs officials knew who you were and if they didn't they found out PDQ with a phone call to the command on your ID card. I traveled freely in that country for 2 years and was never detained more than a few minutes until the ID was verified. The reason, I was attached to a military command (not a US base) and the military was pretty high up on the food chain unlike it is in this country. So at least at that point in time it was a thing. I'm not sure how things work these days but I can tell you the US no longer has the relationship with that country that they did when I was there. The US military is no longer there and not many had a clue when we were there.

What you're talking about is SOFA, and has zero to do with diplomatic immunity or diplomatic passports.

[BigDaddy]

My mom lived to be 92. She was pretty sharp up until about 90. Crossword puzzles, articulate conversation, good memory, that sort of stuff. Not someone you want running the country tho.

I'm not running down old people but at 70 you start to lose a step or two. I have some experience with that.

My neighbor died when she was a week away from celebrating her 100th birthday. A couple of weeks prior some guy tried to get into her house by kicking in her back door. She surprised him and threw a dish plate at him. He fled. She called the police and when they arrived she was flirting with the young officers that responded. Quite a gal.

[Wake27]

The difference is he was a high level official of a disliked but recognized government not a unrecognized illegitimate terrorist organization. No one at least here is seems to be questioning the targeting of just a terrorist like the Obama and G W Bush administration did and the Trump administration continues to do. It is the targeting of a general of a country we are not actually at war with that is problematic.

Edited to add as mentioned above there are certainly critics of the drone killing program but this is a step beyond that.

Are you claiming that the head of a labeled terrorist organization is not, himself, a terrorist? Or are you just advertising that you forgot to learn that fact?

I’m all for debate. I think it is highly lacking in our society and is a huge part of our downfall. People don’t gather in person like they used to, so it’s up to social media where you have people who say they’re above debating online because they’re apparently just above everyone else, and you have people who are essentially children and yell and insult when anyone disagrees with them. I think this forum has a vastly higher percentage of people in between these two groups than the rest of American society.

That being said, a lot of people in this country, some here included, should probably reconsider what they know and what they think they know. There’s a lot of talk of NATO and the military that falls into this category.

To say that Trump hasn’t figured out how to be presidential is hilarious, because he’s actually the fucking president. Maybe he’s not YOUR notion of presidential, but unless you’re the president, that opinion is worth about as much as a pile of dogshit. If you’re going to criticize someone, especially someone who’s probably smarter than you are (he’s rich AF and the president BTW), at least make it a legit criticism.

To that point, blues, I’m curious which tweets you’re referring to because I’m of the exact opposite opinion though based off similar circumstances. Politicians play it so close to the damn vest that you never actually know what they’re thinking. There’s all of like seven that can even answer a question instead of jump tapdance and retweet their party/boss’ latest talking point. I don’t have a Twitter but I follow POTUS’ twitter on FB because I think it’s the closest thing we’ve gotten to actual insight from the cabinet in a long time.

Does some of the shit he says worry me or make me think that he probably shouldn’t? Hell yes. But no one is perfect and sure as shit no one is going to say something every American agrees with 100% of the time. And at least I don’t feel like every single one of his comments have gone through 73 staffers with PHDs in the latest bullshit triggering/safe space/reallifedoesntgiveafuckaboutyourfeelings studies to the point that it’s nothing at all like what he’s thinking.

With that rant over, I’m of the opposite mind that he painted himself into a corner. I’m as confident as can be that if Americans had died, we’d be landscaping that terrain with millions of dollars. I don’t think that he drove the point home so hard that he gave himself no other option and now that he eased off, looks weak. But I do think that if the justification was there, blowing the shit out of all the places he just said he would is a solid micdrop.


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[Borderland]

but unless you’re the president, that opinion is worth about as much as a pile of dogshit.

So basically you're saying unless you happen to be the president, everyone's opinion is worth about as much as a pile of dogshit.

Unless of course a person is being paid for their opinion. Then it must be worth something. I don't think that's anyone here but I could be wrong.;)

[Wake27]

So basically you're saying unless you happen to be the president, everyone's opinion is worth about as much as a pile of dogshit.

Unless of course a person is being paid for their opinion. Then it must be worth something. I don't think that's anyone here but I could be wrong.;)

It was more of an implication than an actual statement, but the point was that if you’re obviously not qualified to speak on the topic AND can’t even make a reasonable, specific statement, then yes, your opinion is worthless.


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[HCM]

The difference is he was a high level official of a disliked but recognized government not a unrecognized illegitimate terrorist organization. No one at least here is seems to be questioning the targeting of just a terrorist like the Obama and G W Bush administration did and the Trump administration continues to do. It is the targeting of a general of a country we are not actually at war with that is problematic.

Edited to add as mentioned above there are certainly critics of the drone killing program but this is a step beyond that.

You may feel that is the difference but the facts don’t support your feelings.

The U.S. does not have diplomatic relations with the current government of Iran and officially refers to Iran’s current government as a “outlaw regime.” Iran’s current government is on the state sponsor of terrorism list maintained by the U.S. Department of State. As such the current government of Iran is neither recognized, nor legitimate in so far as the U.S. Government is concerned.

More specifically, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, the organization commanded by General Soleimani, is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) by the U.S. Secretary of State. Legally they are no different than Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc. As far as the U.S. Government is concerned they are a terror organization and there is no such thing as a “legitimate” terrorist organization. Under U.S. law General Soleimani is just as “legitimate” a target as Osama Bin Laden or Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

Designation of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps

https://www.state.gov/designation-of-the-islamic-revolutionary-guard-corps/


The State Department intends to designate as a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) in its entirety, including the Qods Force. This is a historic step to counter Iran-backed terrorism around the world.

On April 15, the IRGC will be added to the State Department’s FTO list, which includes 67 other terrorist organizations including Hizballah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Kata’ib Hizballah, and al-Ashtar Brigades.
The IRGC FTO designation highlights that Iran is an outlaw regime that uses terrorism as a key tool of statecraft and that the IRGC, part of Iran’s official military, has engaged in terrorist activity or terrorism since its inception 40 years ago.

The IRGC has been directly involved in terrorist plotting; its support for terrorism is foundational and institutional, and it has killed U.S. citizens. It is also responsible for taking hostages and wrongfully detaining numerous U.S. persons, several of whom remain in captivity in Iran today.

The Iranian regime has made a clear choice not only to fund and equip, but also to fuel terrorism, violence, and unrest across the Middle East and around the world at the expense of its own people.

The Iranian regime is responsible for the deaths of at least 603 American service members in Iraq since 2003. This accounts for 17% of all deaths of U.S. personnel in Iraq from 2003 to 2011, and is in addition to the many thousands of Iraqis killed by the IRGC’s proxies.

This action is a significant step forward in our maximum pressure campaign against the Iranian regime. We will continue to increase financial pressure and raise the costs on the Iranian regime for its support of terrorist activities until Tehran abandons this unacceptable behavior.

The IRGC, with the support of the Iranian government, has engaged in terrorist activity since its inception 40 years ago.

The IRGC—most prominently through its Qods Force—has the greatest role among Iran’s actors in directing and carrying out a global terrorist campaign.

In recent years, IRGC Qods Force terrorist planning has been uncovered and disrupted in many countries, including Germany, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Kenya, Bahrain, and Turkey.

The IRGC Qods Force in 2011 plotted a brazen terrorist attack against the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S. on American soil. Fortunately, this plot was foiled.

In September 2018, a U.S. federal court found Iran and the IRGC liable for the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing which killed 19 Americans.

In 2012, IRGC Qods Force operatives were arrested in Turkey for plotting an attack and in Kenya for planning a bombing.

In January 2018, Germany uncovered ten IRGC operatives involved in a terrorist plot in Germany, and convicted another IRGC operative for surveilling a German-Israeli group.

The IRGC continues to provide financial and other material support, training, technology transfer, advanced conventional weapons, guidance, or direction to a broad range of terrorist organizations, including Hizballah, Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Kata’ib Hizballah in Iraq, al-Ashtar Brigades in Bahrain, and other terrorist groups in Syria and around the Gulf.

In addition to its support of proxies and terrorist groups abroad, Iran also harbors terrorists within its own borders, thereby facilitating their activities. Iran continues to allow Al Qaeda (AQ) operatives to reside in Iran, where they have been able to move money and fighters to South Asia and Syria. In 2016, the U.S. Treasury Department identified and sanctioned three senior AQ operatives residing in Iran and noted that Iran had knowingly permitted these AQ members, including several of the 9/11 hijackers, to transit its territory on their way to Afghanistan for training and operational planning.

The IRGC FTO designation is a significant step forward in our maximum pressure campaign against the Iranian regime.

This new FTO designation builds upon previous sanctions, sends a clear message to the world that the Administration is committed to exerting maximum pressure on the Iranian regime, and shines a spotlight on those in the IRGC who engage in terrorist activities.

It builds upon previous sanctioning of more than 900 Iran-related individuals, entities, aircraft, and vessels by this Administration for human right abuses, censorship, ballistic missile program, malign cyber activities, support to terrorism, or associations with the Government of Iran.

Since January 19, 1984, Iran has been designated a State Sponsor of Terrorism (SST) for providing support for acts of international terrorism. As a result of this designation, Iran is subject to a number of sanctions and restrictions, including restrictions on U.S. foreign assistance; a ban on defense exports and sales; exports controls of dual use items; and miscellaneous financial and other restrictions.

In 2017, the Department of the Treasury designated the IRGC as a Specially Designated Global Terrorist pursuant to its counterterrorism sanctions authority (Executive Order 13224) for its activities in support of the IRGC-Qods Force, which was previously designated in 2007 under this same authority for providing support to a number of terrorist groups, including Hizballah and Hamas.

The IRGC is also currently designated pursuant to various Executive Orders, including sanctions designations in 2007 for its support to Iran’s ballistic missile and nuclear programs, and in 2011 and 2012 in connection with Iran’s human rights abuses.

For further information, please contact the CT Public Affairs Office at CTPublicAffairs@state.gov.

[Zincwarrior]

Well back to the accidental letter about withdrawing. May have to dust that one off.

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/policy-strategy/477651-iraqi-prime-minister-tells-pompeo-to-prepare-a-mechanism-for

[jrm]

Ok so where is the connection to 9/11?

[TGS]

Ok so where is the connection to 9/11?

What connection to 9/11? Is there supposed to be one?

[runcible]

Ok so where is the connection to 9/11?

This is a very excellent example of shifting the goalposts.

[blues]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DishonestSnivelingGuernseycow-max-1mb.gif

[jrm]

What connection to 9/11? Is there supposed to be one?

The contention is that Iran is not a country because we don’t have diplomatic relations. Ok looking at it I guess that is accurate although I have some concerns about all of that power being placed in the executive branch it is what it is at this point. Still that doesn’t give the executive branch unfettered use of force. They refuse to give any detail as to what Soleimani may have been planning that would constitute an emergency and he clearly isn’t related to the Iraqi government we went to war with and was there with the new Iraqi government we helped form. So that leaves the AUMF which requires a 9/11 nexus to apply.

The congress, judiciary and the American people have allowed the executive to become too powerful in my view personally and in my view constitutionally. I want to know what legal authority there was to take this action and I want it to be clear not contorted and hidden because of “sources and methods”. I’m increasingly doubting our ability to actually have influence on our government through voting but I know we can’t have meaningful input or decision making ability when we are kept in the dark all the time. This is not a Trump issue for me I was too young and uninformed to realize the problem when I voted for W. Bush twice, McCain, and Romney. It was a problem under Obama and it will be a problem until we the people or the other branches of our government do something about it. I want to have meaningful discussion and debate I was unaware that basically in the eyes of the US Iran is not a country. The complexity of all this is enormous and I don’t know it all. I have bits and pieces I am trying to put together and I believe that’s true for everyone. This is why I think we need a government that is not overly controlled by one person and why we need a government that is open, honest and responsive although not completely at the whim of the electorate.

[jrm]

This is a very excellent example of shifting the goalposts.

This is an example of being dismissive rather than truly trying to grapple with the issues. Perhaps the post was too short and without enough context. I have tried to rectify that. I feel and I may be wrong that you have placed a label or made a predetermined opinion about me or anyone with a view point similar to mine. This conversation and my posts are all present in my mind in a certain way and with a certain context. One of the shortcomings of any form of communication is I know what’s in my head but not what is in yours. If this is a discussion we can work through that. If not I guess everyone is wasting their time.

[TGS]

The US government openly stated in 2019 that the AUMF (if that's what we're hanging our hat on here) could be invoked to protect forces involved in AUMF activities against "third party" attackers, specifically Iran.

ETA: Let me reword that. If US forces are engaged in AUMF operations and someone else sticks their nose in and threatens those forces/operations, they're fair game. This decision was made following more public involvement by Iran this last year. So, "can't say we didn't warn ya".

Besides that, Iran is basically the daddy of all things Islamic terrorism. Virtually everyone shouting "Allah Snackbar!" before they kill westerners has their roots in the IRGC, so if we took up actions against Iran directly it'd be pretty easy to sell it under the AUMF.

If you have a problem with the power of the executive that's cool and all, but we 100% have the legal grounds in current US law to do what we did.

[Wake27]

The contention is that Iran is not a country because we don’t have diplomatic relations. Ok looking at it I guess that is accurate although I have some concerns about all of that power being placed in the executive branch it is what it is at this point. Still that doesn’t give the executive branch unfettered use of force. They refuse to give any detail as to what Soleimani may have been planning that would constitute an emergency and he clearly isn’t related to the Iraqi government we went to war with and was there with the new Iraqi government we helped form. So that leaves the AUMF which requires a 9/11 nexus to apply.

The congress, judiciary and the American people have allowed the executive to become too powerful in my view personally and in my view constitutionally. I want to know what legal authority there was to take this action and I want it to be clear not contorted and hidden because of “sources and methods”. I’m increasingly doubting our ability to actually have influence on our government through voting but I know we can’t have meaningful input or decision making ability when we are kept in the dark all the time. This is not a Trump issue for me I was too young and uninformed to realize the problem when I voted for W. Bush twice, McCain, and Romney. It was a problem under Obama and it will be a problem until we the people or the other branches of our government do something about it. I want to have meaningful discussion and debate I was unaware that basically in the eyes of the US Iran is not a country. The complexity of all this is enormous and I don’t know it all. I have bits and pieces I am trying to put together and I believe that’s true for everyone. This is why I think we need a government that is not overly controlled by one person and why we need a government that is open, honest and responsive although not completely at the whim of the electorate.

If you want to know details, get a high level clearance and a job that puts you in the need to know category. Otherwise stop crying. The executive branch is always going to hide shit from the American public because a lot of us are just stupid and would cause more problems by knowing too much.

Sure, our current form of government is way outside the scope of the Constitution and while that’s dangerous, so is the notion that the entire American public deserves every piece of intel or hostile actors.


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[BehindBlueI's]

The contention is that Iran is not a country because we don’t have diplomatic relations. Ok looking at it I guess that is accurate although I have some concerns about all of that power being placed in the executive branch it is what it is at this point. Still that doesn’t give the executive branch unfettered use of force. They refuse to give any detail as to what Soleimani may have been planning that would constitute an emergency and he clearly isn’t related to the Iraqi government we went to war with and was there with the new Iraqi government we helped form. So that leaves the AUMF which requires a 9/11 nexus to apply.

AUMF 2002 does not state 'Iraqi government we went to war with', it states:


SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States
against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.

Strikes against:


...The drone strike also killed several officials from Iraqi militias backed by Iran. Among them were Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, a top commander of the Popular Mobilization Forces, an umbrella group of Iraqi militias, and the group’s public relations chief, Mohammed Ridha Jabri.

AUMF 2002 doesn't require any 9/11 nexus. It requires an Iraqi threat to national security of the US. Attacking/killing US troops is a threat to national security of the US. I'm certainly no expert but this doesn't appear to be an area of dispute to me.

[blues]

I agree with jrm that the executive branch has taken liberties with its actions while thumbing its nose at the legislative branch. Checks and balances exist for a reason...and each branch will try to flex its muscle to the max unless brought to heel by the other co-equal branches.

Granted, congress is a hot mess and there's no two ways around it. Both sides of the aisle need a dose of corporal punishment and replacement. That however, does not legitimize the executive for failing to acknowledge the authority of congress, cooperate with congress or properly disclose accurate, factual information to both congress and the American people.

"That government is best which governs least." A lot of people around these parts give lip service to that concept but seem willing to look the other way in regard to rules and ethics violations when their team has the ball. I understand why some folks feel that way, but such pragmatism (and shortsightedness) can lead to fascism or other dire consequences in my view. (Extreme case and I'm not suggesting that that is our destiny.)

Take care of it like you own it.

[jrm]

If our government is outside the bounds of the constitution then it is completely illegitimate. The words of the AUMF should speak for themselves rather than relying on a twisted interpretation by our “government” that some people seem to believe has surpassed the constitution and they are completely kosher with. What is an Iraq threat if Iraq is a country but countries are only defined by who we have diplomatic relations with and these militias are not part of the country we have diplomatic relationships with. I think I’m probably done here. I will continue to read and may post again but I have made my statements. Those who want to can critique them I will concede there will be ground to legitimately do so. Further some have already made valid and thought provoking responses. But I don’t think at this juncture I have more to meaningfully contribute. I know of no better country but I fear for its future as it becomes untethered from its populace and the documents upon which its legitimacy rest.

[HCM]

This is an example of being dismissive rather than truly trying to grapple with the issues. Perhaps the post was too short and without enough context. I have tried to rectify that. I feel and I may be wrong that you have placed a label or made a predetermined opinion about me or anyone with a view point similar to mine. This conversation and my posts are all present in my mind in a certain way and with a certain context. One of the shortcomings of any form of communication is I know what’s in my head but not what is in yours. If this is a discussion we can work through that. If not I guess everyone is wasting their time.

No, it is accurate. Connection to 9/11 is irrelevant.

What is relevant is listed in tne designation announcement of the IRGC as an FTO.

Particularly:
The Iranian regime is responsible for the deaths of at least 603 American service members in Iraq since 2003. This accounts for 17% of all deaths of U.S. personnel in Iraq from 2003 to 2011, and is in addition to the many thousands of Iraqis killed by the IRGC’s proxies.

[TGS]

If our government is outside the bounds of the constitution then it is completely illegitimate. The words of the AUMF should speak for themselves rather than relying on a twisted interpretation by our “government” that some people seem to believe has surpassed the constitution and they are completely kosher with. What is an Iraq threat if Iraq is a country but countries are only defined by who we have diplomatic relations with and these militias are not part of the country we have diplomatic relationships with. I think I’m probably done here. I will continue to read and may post again but I have made my statements. Those who want to can critique them I will concede there will be ground to legitimately do so. Further some have already made valid and thought provoking responses. But I don’t think at this juncture I have more to meaningfully contribute. I know of no better country but I fear for its future as it becomes untethered from its populace and the documents upon which its legitimacy rest.

cool story bro

[HCM]

The contention is that Iran is not a country because we don’t have diplomatic relations. Ok looking at it I guess that is accurate although I have some concerns about all of that power being placed in the executive branch it is what it is at this point. Still that doesn’t give the executive branch unfettered use of force. They refuse to give any detail as to what Soleimani may have been planning that would constitute an emergency and he clearly isn’t related to the Iraqi government we went to war with and was there with the new Iraqi government we helped form. So that leaves the AUMF which requires a 9/11 nexus to apply.

The congress, judiciary and the American people have allowed the executive to become too powerful in my view personally and in my view constitutionally. I want to know what legal authority there was to take this action and I want it to be clear not contorted and hidden because of “sources and methods”. I’m increasingly doubting our ability to actually have influence on our government through voting but I know we can’t have meaningful input or decision making ability when we are kept in the dark all the time. This is not a Trump issue for me I was too young and uninformed to realize the problem when I voted for W. Bush twice, McCain, and Romney. It was a problem under Obama and it will be a problem until we the people or the other branches of our government do something about it. I want to have meaningful discussion and debate I was unaware that basically in the eyes of the US Iran is not a country. The complexity of all this is enormous and I don’t know it all. I have bits and pieces I am trying to put together and I believe that’s true for everyone. This is why I think we need a government that is not overly controlled by one person and why we need a government that is open, honest and responsive although not completely at the whim of the electorate.

Words mean things.

You claimed Soleimani was an official of a “legitimate and recognized” government.

The U.S. does not recognize the current government of Iran.

That does NOT equal “Iran is not a country.”

You seem to be operating under misperception of the facts and when the facts don’t support your feelings you shift /deflect the objective.

[runcible]

This is an example of being dismissive rather than truly trying to grapple with the issues. Perhaps the post was too short and without enough context. I have tried to rectify that. I feel and I may be wrong that you have placed a label or made a predetermined opinion about me or anyone with a view point similar to mine. This conversation and my posts are all present in my mind in a certain way and with a certain context. One of the shortcomings of any form of communication is I know what’s in my head but not what is in yours. If this is a discussion we can work through that. If not I guess everyone is wasting their time.

The accuracy of the statement in no way correlates with any dismissiveness or lackthereof; it stands on its own merits.

https://www.state.gov/designation-of-the-islamic-revolutionary-guard-corps/

[Borderland]

AUMF 2002 does not state 'Iraqi government we went to war with', it states:



Strikes against:



AUMF 2002 doesn't require any 9/11 nexus. It requires an Iraqi threat to national security of the US. Attacking/killing US troops is a threat to national security of the US. I'm certainly no expert but this doesn't appear to be an area of dispute to me.

Here is a good discussion about, 1991, 2001 and 2002 AUMF.

https://www.heritage.org/the-constitution/report/why-repealing-the-1991-and-2002-iraq-war-authorizations-sound-policy

91 seems to have been directed at Saddam and 02 at the Axis of Evil (Iran, Iraq and N. Korea). But where we may be going into the weeds here is that Saddam is no longer a threat and nowhere in the 02 statute does it say that the goal is to establish a stable, democratic Iraq which is what has been going on. One of the reasons Obama pulled out in 2007.

There is proposed legislation to abolish 91 and 02.


The primary war authorization relied upon by the Bush, Obama, and Trump Administrations to prosecute the war against al-Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, and associated forces has been and continues to be the 2001 AUMF.

My feeling here is that Iraq isn't worth the effort or the cost. If a terrorist organization shows up there you just reduce their population by whatever means available and move on. If there's collateral damage maybe that country shouldn't be aiding a terrorist org. Winning the hearts and minds isn't going to work. We're seeing that right now in Iraq. I think most of the Shia there would just as soon have the Ayatollah running things. The people of Iraq had their chance, actually numerous chances, to govern themselves and have miserably failed at all levels. Maybe living like the people in Iran do now is more their speed.

[runcible]

One of the reasons Obama pulled out in 2007.


In the interests of specificity, the force draw-down began in 2007, but concluded end-of-2011.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-16192105

[Borderland]

deleted...........

[Bart Carter]

...In other news...how did the Iranians manage to shoot down a passenger jet taking off from their own airport?

They needed the body count because their Iraq missile attack didn't kill anyone.

[JohnO]

Partisan Politics on steroids.



https://www.facebook.com/WashingtonExaminer/videos/1027949317561693/?t=7

[Bart Carter]

...if you’re obviously not qualified to speak on the topic AND can’t even make a reasonable, specific statement, then yes, your opinion is worthless..

And you probably are a commentator for CNN...:D

[blues]

Such rancor. I'm shocked, dismayed and somewhat taken aback. Did I mention shocked?



:rolleyes:

[Borderland]

They needed the body count because their Iraq missile attack didn't kill anyone.

They didn't have to waste a missile to kill a few hundred people. They could have just shot protesters and came up with the same numbers. My guess is those people were trying to get out of there before the place turned to rubble.

[Bart Carter]

Trump says ‘four embassies’ were targeted in imminent threat from Iran.

News at 9:00. :D

[blues]

Trump says ‘four embassies’ were targeted in imminent threat from Iran.

News at 9:00. :D

One is none...

[Wake27]

I agree with jrm that the executive branch has taken liberties with its actions while thumbing its nose at the legislative branch. Checks and balances exist for a reason...and each branch will try to flex its muscle to the max unless brought to heel by the other co-equal branches.

Granted, congress is a hot mess and there's no two ways around it. Both sides of the aisle need a dose of corporal punishment and replacement. That however, does not legitimize the executive for failing to acknowledge the authority of congress, cooperate with congress or properly disclose accurate, factual information to both congress and the American people.

"That government is best which governs least." A lot of people around these parts give lip service to that concept but seem willing to look the other way in regard to rules and ethics violations when their team has the ball. I understand why some folks feel that way, but such pragmatism (and shortsightedness) can lead to fascism or other dire consequences in my view. (Extreme case and I'm not suggesting that that is our destiny.)

Take care of it like you own it.

For me, it’s not so much which party is in control as it is what country the subject is from. I’m far more open to the idea and practice of the government crossing lines when it’s not American citizens. Sure, all people have basic rights, but I likely DGAF if POTUS blasted one of the most deserving men on earth from a drone without consulting Congress. Had such or really any similar liberties been taken with American citizens is a different story, as only we are protected by the Constitution.

And not at all related but a lot of you guys are far more eloquent than I am so that’s cool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

Sure, all people have basic rights, but I likely DGAF if POTUS blasted one of the most deserving men on earth from a drone without consulting Congress. Had such or really any similar liberties been taken with American citizens is a different story, as only we are protected by the Constitution.

You do know we *have* killed US citizens abroad with drones, correct? Obama did it. The ACLU sued on behalf of the droned, but the courts held with the gov't.

[Wake27]

You do know we *have* killed US citizens abroad with drones, correct? Obama did it. The ACLU sued on behalf of the droned, but the courts held with the gov't.

Absolutely. But that wasn't the topic of this discussion as far as I'm aware nor did I state that I was supportive of that.

[farscott]

I agree with jrm that the executive branch has taken liberties with its actions while thumbing its nose at the legislative branch. Checks and balances exist for a reason...and each branch will try to flex its muscle to the max unless brought to heel by the other co-equal branches.

Granted, congress is a hot mess and there's no two ways around it. Both sides of the aisle need a dose of corporal punishment and replacement. That however, does not legitimize the executive for failing to acknowledge the authority of congress, cooperate with congress or properly disclose accurate, factual information to both congress and the American people.

"That government is best which governs least." A lot of people around these parts give lip service to that concept but seem willing to look the other way in regard to rules and ethics violations when their team has the ball. I understand why some folks feel that way, but such pragmatism (and shortsightedness) can lead to fascism or other dire consequences in my view. (Extreme case and I'm not suggesting that that is our destiny.)

Take care of it like you own it.

Great post, and I agree with most of it. But the Executive branch has been able to do what it has done due to the fact that Congress has failed its duty to check the Executive. The War Powers Act was passed in 1973, and Presidents of both parties have pushed the limits with little or no action from Congress. When Congress approved the resolution about Syria, ground troops were listed as forbidden; however, both Prescient Obama and President Trump sent personnel into Syria as "advisers". When Congress does not do its part to rein in the Executive, it is not surprising that the Executive is willing to move the goal posts.

[blues]

Great post, and I agree with most of it. But the Executive branch has been able to do what it has done due to the fact that Congress has failed its duty to check the Executive. The War Powers Act was passed in 1973, and Presidents of both parties have pushed the limits with little or no action from Congress. When Congress approved the resolution about Syria, ground troops were listed as forbidden; however, both Prescient Obama and President Trump sent personnel into Syria as "advisers". When Congress does not do its part to rein in the Executive, it is not surprising that the Executive is willing to move the goal posts.

Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it. And I agree with you. Excesses by the executive branch precede 1973, of course. My comments were simply a thumbnail sketch in response to some posts by jrm lamenting the circumstances we find ourselves in currently. We can go back to virtually any administration and find dirty tricks. (I certainly did during my own career.)

I sent an earful eyeful to Bush II about the so-called Patriot Act and my concerns about it and that was rubber stamped by congress. (He didn't deign to reply. I was shocked, shocked I say, that he didn't. :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I'm sure I'd have some issues with Andrew Jackson too but we can't go back so must needs address what we can going forward.

[Wake27]

Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it. And I agree with you. Excesses by the executive branch precede 1973, of course. My comments were simply a thumbnail sketch in response to some posts by jrm lamenting the circumstances we find ourselves in currently. We can go back to virtually any administration and find dirty tricks. (I certainly did during my own career.)

I sent an earful eyeful to Bush II about the so-called Patriot Act and my concerns about it and that was rubber stamped by congress. (He didn't deign to reply. I was shocked, shocked I say, that he didn't. :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I'm sure I'd have some issues with Andrew Jackson too but we can't go back so must needs address what we can going forward.

That’s a big part of the problem though. Congress is almost entirely worthless. Hard for one branch to check another when all three of them are all kinds of screwed up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[critter]

...particularly from scum-sucking Congress-critters



must we generalize an entire group with such inclusion alongside such a vitriolic, degrading epithet? We admit to and even take pride in being scum-sucking... however.. THAT's just over the top.

[blues]

That’s a big part of the problem though. Congress is almost entirely worthless. Hard for one branch to check another when all three of them are all kinds of screwed up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, do we burn down the house and start over...or make repairs where we can?

[Drang]

Iran just doubled down on stupid:
Britain's ambassador to Iran is ARRESTED after photographing protesters in Tehran clash | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7877079/Britains-ambassador-Iran-ARRESTED-photographing-protesters-Tehran-clash.html?ito=social-facebook)

[RJ]

Iran just doubled down on stupid:
Britain's ambassador to Iran is ARRESTED after photographing protesters in Tehran clash | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7877079/Britains-ambassador-Iran-ARRESTED-photographing-protesters-Tehran-clash.html?ito=social-facebook)

Woah.

That’s not going to end well.

Especially with Boris getting a massive re-election as PM.

[ranger]

Woah.

That’s not going to end well.

Especially with Boris getting a massive re-election as PM.

RJ - exactly what do you expect the British to do about this insult? Remember they had a tanker seized and ??

[UNK]

They didn't have to waste a missile to kill a few hundred people. They could have just shot protesters and came up with the same numbers. My guess is those people were trying to get out of there before the place turned to rubble.

Ive read that a lot of people around Solemini were arrested. Im wondering if one they didnt get to in time was on that plane.

[Borderland]

Ive read that a lot of people around Solemini were arrested. Im wondering if one they didnt get to in time was on that plane.

I think many of those people were trying to leave Iran in a hurry. I haven't seen a list of citizenship yet but I think Ukraine and Canada was mentioned.

[RJ]

RJ - exactly what do you expect the British to do about this insult? Remember they had a tanker seized and ??

No clue.

It seems he was released after a few hours?

I’m no consulate official, but I’d guess at least senior diplomats from the UK would be recalled to London to determine the status of relations with Iran. The average brit can’t be thrilled with them right now.

[UNK]

I think many of those people were trying to leave Iran in a hurry. I haven't seen a list of citizenship yet but I think Ukraine and Canada was mentioned.

The victims: 176 were killed. Those include 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians, 11 Ukrainians, 10 Swedes, four Afghans, three Germans and three British nationals, according to Ukraine's Foreign Minister.

As I said earlier perhaps the person they were looking for was on that plane.

[Stephanie B]

What baffles me is this: The Quds Force was designated a terrorist entity in 2007. As its leader, Soleimani was a legitimate military target. It now turns out that killing him has been on the table for months (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-authorized-soleimani-s-killing-7-months-ago-conditions-n1113271).

If Trump had said as much and concluded with "we had to chance to take him out and we did so", that would have been the end of the story. Trump would have had a moment in which he looked firm and decisive, almost a Gary Cooper sort of guy.

Unfortunately, no. That was not enough for Trump. He had to embellish and lie about why Soleimani had to be killed. First there was the "imminent plot" for which there is no evidence. Now there's the "four embassies plot", something that Trump appears to have cooked up himself. Again, no evidence. Next it will be Trump saying that Soleimani planned to blow up Tranquility Base.

So we don't have a moment of "Trump the decisive leader", we have yet another moment of "Trump the big fat liar", in the same way that he turned the killing of the head of ISIS into a story about how Trump makes shit up.

[pooty]

What baffles me is this: The Quds Force was designated a terrorist entity in 2007. As its leader, Soleimani was a legitimate military target. It now turns out that killing him has been on the table for months (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-authorized-soleimani-s-killing-7-months-ago-conditions-n1113271).

If Trump had said as much and concluded with "we had to chance to take him out and we did so", that would have been the end of the story. Trump would have had a moment in which he looked firm and decisive, almost a Gary Cooper sort of guy.

Unfortunately, no. That was not enough for Trump. He had to embellish and lie about why Soleimani had to be killed. First there was the "imminent plot" for which there is no evidence. Now there's the "four embassies plot", something that Trump appears to have cooked up himself. Again, no evidence. Next it will be Trump saying that Soleimani planned to blow up Tranquility Base.

So we don't have a moment of "Trump the decisive leader", we have yet another moment of "Trump the big fat liar", in the same way that he turned the killing of the head of ISIS into a story about how Trump makes shit up.



https://medium.com/@duncanr/the-parasite-behind-the-cat-lady-bce5e31fee8b


There is a strong correlation between cases of schizophrenia in humans and the presence of antibodies to the toxoplasma parasite. The prevalence of schizophrenia has also grown in lock-step with the domestication of cats. Some people theorize that the parasite, confused by the anatomy of the human brain, modifies it not to make us just love cats, but to make us go full-on, batshit crazy.

[TGS]

What baffles me is this: The Quds Force was designated a terrorist entity in 2007. As its leader, Soleimani was a legitimate military target. It now turns out that killing him has been on the table for months (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-authorized-soleimani-s-killing-7-months-ago-conditions-n1113271).

If Trump had said as much and concluded with "we had to chance to take him out and we did so", that would have been the end of the story. Trump would have had a moment in which he looked firm and decisive, almost a Gary Cooper sort of guy.

Unfortunately, no. That was not enough for Trump. He had to embellish and lie about why Soleimani had to be killed. First there was the "imminent plot" for which there is no evidence. Now there's the "four embassies plot", something that Trump appears to have cooked up himself. Again, no evidence. Next it will be Trump saying that Soleimani planned to blow up Tranquility Base.

So we don't have a moment of "Trump the decisive leader", we have yet another moment of "Trump the big fat liar", in the same way that he turned the killing of the head of ISIS into a story about how Trump makes shit up.

If Trump had gone the route of taking him out and saying, "we had the chance so we did so," I'm pretty sure you'd find some way to criticize him for it anyway. You'd probably say he was doing it just because he needed a distraction from the impeachment or something.

Do you have proof that there is no evidence for Soleimani's imminent plot? Or is that just something you're inferring because you don't rate being read into the program?

[Stephanie B]

If Trump had gone the route of taking him out and saying, "we had the chance so we did so," I'm pretty sure you'd find some way to criticize him for it anyway. You'd probably say he was doing it just because he needed a distraction from the impeachment or something.

Do you have proof that there is no evidence for Soleimani's imminent plot? Or is that just something you're inferring because you don't rate being read into the program?

Pay attention to the news once in awhile. None of Trump's people are backing him on this, other than nebulously.

[Stephanie B]

https://medium.com/@duncanr/the-parasite-behind-the-cat-lady-bce5e31fee8b

Do me a favor: Block me. Don't read anything I write. For I am sure as hell going to do the same for you. I don't appreciate at all being called crazy just because I disagree with Your Dear Leader.

[HCM]

What baffles me is this: The Quds Force was designated a terrorist entity in 2007. As its leader, Soleimani was a legitimate military target. It now turns out that killing him has been on the table for months (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-authorized-soleimani-s-killing-7-months-ago-conditions-n1113271).

If Trump had said as much and concluded with "we had to chance to take him out and we did so", that would have been the end of the story. Trump would have had a moment in which he looked firm and decisive, almost a Gary Cooper sort of guy.

Unfortunately, no. That was not enough for Trump. He had to embellish and lie about why Soleimani had to be killed. First there was the "imminent plot" for which there is no evidence. Now there's the "four embassies plot", something that Trump appears to have cooked up himself. Again, no evidence. Next it will be Trump saying that Soleimani planned to blow up Tranquility Base.

So we don't have a moment of "Trump the decisive leader", we have yet another moment of "Trump the big fat liar", in the same way that he turned the killing of the head of ISIS into a story about how Trump makes shit up.

You. mean no evidence that is unclassified and has or can be released publicly without exposing sources and methods ?

A more valid criticism would be that if you can’t release the background without exposing sources and methods Trump should not be talking about it at all.

On another note 600 plus U.S. KIA is nothing to sneeze at. Soleimani may be THE most legitimate target the drone program has shwacked.

[TGS]

Pay attention to the news once in awhile. None of Trump's people are backing him on this, other than nebulously.

Example?

[Stephanie B]

Example?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/politics/trump-suleimani-explanations.html

[TGS]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/politics/trump-suleimani-explanations.html

I'm not a NYT subscriber, I'm not sure what the article is about.

What I've seen most people hinge this argument on thus far is SecDef Esper saying that he didn't see any intelligence for a "4 embassies plot". People are extrapolating that to mean "no intelligence that there was an imminent attack", even though in the same interview Esper strongly asserted that there was an imminent attack directed against multiple diplomatic and military installations in the NEA region.

To be honest, I've given up on following a lot of the news because in my current position I've realized it's mostly purposed misrepresentations or flat out fabrications. I've been a fly on the wall at so many events at the highest levels of government, and seeing stuff play out in the news over and over in virtually a 180* version of events compared to reality. Most recently, given that I delivered a cabinet member to Congress to give them a classified briefing on the intel. Or that after we got handsy with an out of line journalist who later had his press pass revoked, he broke a story not 30 minutes later that our principle officer had "dodged questions" and is "changing his answers". Well, gee, IDK, maybe ask questions in the correct forum instead of leaping out between pillars in a subterranean complex where the security detail feels compelled to sound off and play fisti-cuffs with you....

I get that none of this matters to you, because doing whatever possible to malign or impede Trump (and the administration overall) is the ultimate goal, and the ends justify the means for your crowd, regardless of what truth gets trampled or who gets hurt. Orange Man Bad, all that.

[TGS]

Short documentary about the last 4 years:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqqwTgk8ri0

[Zincwarrior]

If Trump had gone the route of taking him out and saying, "we had the chance so we did so," I'm pretty sure you'd find some way to criticize him for it anyway. You'd probably say he was doing it just because he needed a distraction from the impeachment or something.

Do you have proof that there is no evidence for Soleimani's imminent plot? Or is that just something you're inferring because you don't rate being read into the program?

Alternatively could have just ordered the action and had everyone deny any knowledge. Thats how a certain other power in the region has operated for decades against leaders of opposing forces.

"explosion? What explosion?"