Fort Scott Munitions TUI

[Conrad0011]

Has anyone here had any experience with Fort Scott Munition TUI ammo, specifically in 9MM? It's made to Tumble Upon Impact and cause a bigger wound channel. Had a guy a local gun store filling my in and for the life of me I had never heard of this ammo before. He uses it in his EDC. Wanting to see what you all think of it

[the Schwartz]

Has anyone here had any experience with Fort Scott Munition TUI ammo, specifically in 9MM? It's made to Tumble Upon Impact and cause a bigger wound channel. Had a guy a local gun store filling my in and for the life of me I had never heard of this ammo before. He uses it in his EDC. Wanting to see what you all think of it

Is this what you are taking about?

46764

9mm NATO 124-grain FMJ also tumbles (or yaws) in bodies and is not widely regarded as being the best choice for self-defense ammunition. Even with the pointed nose of the 80-grain Fort Scott offering, I am not sure that it offers any appreciable gain/benefits over premium JHPs or typical FMJRNs found in common practice ammunition. That means it is a 'hard pass' for me; I'd recommend premium expanding designs like 9mm 124-grain and 147-grain Speer Gold Dots and 124-grain and 147-grain Federal HSTs.

[0ddl0t]

Even with the pointed nose of the 80-grain Fort Scott offering, I am not sure that it offers any appreciable gain/benefits over premium JHPs or typical FMJRNs found in common practice ammunition.

I still wouldn't pick it, but the 80 grain Fort Scott has a few benefits:

1) It can penetrate some IIIA armor when fired from duty-length barrel
2) It does not penetrate 30+ inches in gel like a ball round
3) It is non-expanding, making it legal in certain jurisdictions that ban JHPs
4) It is non-lead for jurisdictions banning lead


As for downsides: while I haven't personally shot the 80 gr fort scott, I have yet to shoot any 60-90grain 9mm ammo that hits close to point of aim when zeroed for 115-147gr fmjrn...

[the Schwartz]

I still wouldn't pick it, but the 80 grain Fort Scott has a few benefits:

Very few, actually...


1) It can penetrate some IIIA armor when fired from duty-length barrel

Some? I'm not convinced that it is much of a benefit, but I'll give you that one. ;)


2) It does not penetrate 30+ inches in gel like a ball round

There are no guarantees that Fort Scott 9mm 80-grain TUI will yaw or tumble ''end-over-end'' either. If it does not do so, one can expect that the Fort Scott 9mm 80-grain TUI, with a 0.355'' diameter bullet at 1,355 fps (as specified by the manufacturer) will penetrate excessively as predicted below—

Q-model prediction: 23.035 inches
mTHOR model prediction: 17.981 inches
MacPherson model: 18.649 inches

If you look at the penetration of the Fort Scott 9mm 80-grain TUI that is depicted in the video produced by the manufacturer—

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=75&v=s_Jn8QWYuKI&feature=emb_logo

—(which, of course, uses the clear gel product :rolleyes: ), you'll see the pointy little projectile zip right on through a 16-inch long block of the stuff confirming the predictions of the models above.

In fact, right here on their very own website—

https://fortscottmunitions.com/products/9mm-luger-fort-defense-handgun-ammo

—they advertise the 9mm 80-grain TUI design as having "superior penetration".

Pass-throughs? No thanks. If in doubt about just how bad those can be, just ask NYPD how the 9mm 115-grain FMJs they issued in the mid- to late-1990s worked for them.

So, nope, not a benefit or an advantage.


3)It is non-expanding, making it legal in certain jurisdictions that ban JHPs

Then, given its demonstrated tendency to zip through flesh just like FMJs, it offers nothing over FMJs. Might as well ''go cheap'' and get the much cheaper FMJs so you can save your pennies to pay for the lawsuits when those non-expanding rounds strike an innocent. (See again, the fate suffered by those on the wrong side of NYPD FMJs in the mid- to late-1990s).

So, it penetrates just as much as FMJs; again, no benefit or advantage here.


4)It is non-lead for jurisdictions banning lead

There are excellent options for non-lead projectiles (e.g.: Barnes X-TAC) and they even expand reliably, do not penetrate excessively.

No advantage to using the Fort Scott 9mm 80-grain TUI here either.


So, the Fort Scott 9mm 80-grain TUI is still a ''hard pass'' for me.


As for downsides: while I haven't personally shot the 80 gr fort scott, I have yet to shoot any 60-90grain 9mm ammo that hits close to point of aim when zeroed for 115-147gr fmjrn...

Well, that's not good either.

[Conrad0011]

Is this what you are taking about?

46764

9mm NATO 124-grain FMJ also tumbles (or yaws) in bodies and is not widely regarded as being the best choice for self-defense ammunition. Even with the pointed nose of the 80-grain Fort Scott offering, I am not sure that it offers any appreciable gain/benefits over premium JHPs or typical FMJRNs found in common practice ammunition. That means it is a 'hard pass' for me; I'd recommend premium expanding designs like 9mm 124-grain and 147-grain Speer Gold Dots and 124-grain and 147-grain Federal HSTs.



Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

[jeep45238]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

Dude is lacking in context completely. General .mil doesn't use JHP's, but it has nothing to do with effectiveness. Some .mil is issued JHP.

[HCM]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

Every U.S. and Canadian LE Agency I’m aware of is using JHP, usually a bonded bullet (or equivalent like Gold Dot). Even the NYPD in ultra liberal NYC quickly abandoned FMJ duty ammo for JHP soon after transitioning to autos due to over penetration and shoot through issues.

Most militaries use FMJ because it is cheap, Hague Convention compliant, or both. The U.S. Military is currently using JHP in certain circumstances including CONUS force protection and law enforcement.

Tumbling bullets are Horse-shit. There are no magic bullets. The Terminal ballistics of handgun bullets are pretty settled science at this point. Your buddy could be a flat earth believer but that would not make it so.

On another note, lots of people served overseas. Few of them saw actual combat with small arms and fewer still shot anyone in theater with a pistol.

[Hambo]

Had a guy a local gun store filling my in and for the life of me I had never heard of this ammo before. He uses it in his EDC. Wanting to see what you all think of it

I don't believe sea stories, fairy tales, or ammo stories from some guy in a gun shop.

About the ammo/website:

Videos of gel shooting, check.
T-shirts, check.
One shot in clear gel, check.
Actual testing and information, nada.

There were all kinds of innovative ammo designs in the 1980s. They all sucked, but every now and then someone recycles them.

[LittleLebowski]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

I've served overseas and I don't believe a word of it.

[0ddl0t]

Penetrated IIa & IIIa armor, but did not do significantly more damage to the meat target than FMJ:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UtXbSMTN-o

[Vista461]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

I have never heard of any current LE agencies using tumbling ammo. The closest to a non standard HP I’ve heard of is places the issue Critical Duty, and I’d still rather have Gold Dot or HST.
My current agency is Gold Dot and two prior ones were HST when I left.

[TGS]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

I'd like to hear what LE agencies he thinks are using "tumbling" ammo.

[WDR]

Everybody is trying to be nice about this, but I'll cut to the chase.

It's crap.

Stick with major manufacturers premium JHP.

[Midnight Hour]

Penetrated IIa & IIIa armor, but did not do significantly more damage to the meat target than FMJ:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UtXbSMTN-oLight, fast, pointy bullets and speed kills armor. I've seen .22WMR also penetrate body armor. So it would appear this ammo does have some advantage, that is IF you were going off to war against a bunch of adversaries who may be wearing IIa & IIIa armor.

[Joe in PNG]

There's also a tendency for smaller ammo makers to attempt to get market share for themselves by bringing out some flavor of Super Kewl Magic Bullet.

Often sold with wildly exaggerated claims of effectiveness (because new magic!), and even the occasional dark hint about use by Sooper Seekrit Skwirrel Black Ops Ninjas.
This is often a clue: any ammo with either above is usually overpriced Derp.

[HCM]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking

Got me thinking too. “Served over seas” covers a lot of ground. The tooth to tail ration in the modern military is like 13 or 14 support for each trigger puller. Regardless of what he did “over seas” it doesn’t mean he knows jack shit about terminal ballistics. All it means is he showed up, used what “they” gave him. He had no say in the matter.

My dogs know when it’s time to eat but that doesn’t mean they could tell you how to build a watch.

[Baldanders]

The only impressive effects I have seen with tumbling bullets were the result of loading a Chinese 5.8 bullet into a .22-250 case used on a smallish quadriped. It was pretty much disemboweled. Can't find the pic on the ballistics studies site right now.

This was the original goal with M-16 ammunition, or so I have read. (Hence the original 1 in 14 or so twist) It never seems to work out with rifles, hard to see how tumbling would work all that well at 1/3 the speed of .22ish rifle.

But "exotic" ammo never dies, it just goes away until folks forget it didn't work, then it comes back with new packaging.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking


Who is "he"?

[Lost River]

It would appear to be FMJ promoted by and sold to the people on the "low information" side of things.

Ask yourself this; How many Pros like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, etc are carrying this stuff.

Nobody.

[Conrad0011]

Who is "he"?

Graham at Downtown Tactical, Springfield, Mo

[Chuck Haggard]

There's also a tendency for smaller ammo makers to attempt to get market share for themselves by bringing out some flavor of Super Kewl Magic Bullet.

Often sold with wildly exaggerated claims of effectiveness (because new magic!), and even the occasional dark hint about use by Sooper Seekrit Skwirrel Black Ops Ninjas.
This is often a clue: any ammo with either above is usually overpriced Derp.


^This^

[Chuck Haggard]

Graham at Downtown Tactical, Springfield, Mo


He needs to, as Uncle Pat used to say "read more, post less"

He is spouting bullshit.

The ammo in question is glorified ball ammo. Period. It doesn't nothing special.

[El Cid]

Yeah, thatÂ’s it. I use HST 124 gr +p now. HeÂ’s telling me that the tumbling ammo is being used by more LE groups. HeÂ’s served overseas and pointed out the Mil doesn't use HP ammo. I KNOW why I use HP (MAG40 grad), but this guy is in favor of putting more holes in a perp. He doesnÂ’t believe that HPs do the job they are portrayed to do.
Anyway, he gave me a lot to ponder and so IÂ’m throwing it out here to get some feedback. Got me thinking



Graham at Downtown Tactical, Springfield, Mo

He is significantly misinformed and you’d be better off doing the opposite of whatever he tells you to do.

[the Schwartz]

The ammo in question is expensive glorified ball ammo.

FIFY. ;)

At $1.15 per round according to the manufacturer's website, anyone is simply better off buying HSTs which can be found for 9mm for about 70% of the cost here: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/9mm-luger-ammo-c-51.aspx

[PNWTO]

“Teaching people a large number of sword techniques is turning the way into a business of selling goods, making beginners believe that there is something profound in their training by impressing them with a variety of techniques. This attitude toward strategy must be avoided, because thinking that there is a variety of ways of cutting a man down is evidence of a disturbed mind. In the world, different ways of cutting a man down do not exist.” - Musashi

Stick with something proven and read Doc’s stickies, especially the mindset pieces. Get the cheapest ammo you can find in the largest quantity that meets your needs. At the risk of piling on, a majority of both LGS employees and servicemembers don’t have the resume to talk about ballistics.

[LtDave]

FIFY. ;)

At $1.15 per round according to the manufacturer's website, anyone is simply better off buying HSTs which can be found for 9mm for about 70% of the cost here: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/9mm-luger-ammo-c-51.aspx

Well, if Harrell’s video can be believed, it appears to work well in defeating soft body armor. If you needed that capability, $1.15 a round would not be unreasonable. I’ll stick with HST or Gold Dots.

[the Schwartz]

Well, if Harrell’s video can be believed, it appears to work well in defeating soft body armor. If you needed that capability, $1.15 a round would not be unreasonable.

Those are mighty big ''if''s.

While encountering an armored threat is certainly not impossible for non-LE carriers, it is a relatively improbable event—so I question the value of this particular product. Perhaps if one finds themselves in some third-world hell hole over-run with armored death-squads it might be of value.

In the more probable scenarios facing carriers here in the US, it is still just really expensive FMJ and due to its very streamlined, almost conical nose profile, permanent tissue damage produced by the TUI is likely to be slightly less than that seen with the underwhelming FMJRN in any caliber. Not much of ''selling point'' in my opinion....

As for Harrell's videos, I have absolutely no confidence in their validity. They fail when considered against even the slightest scientific rigor and, at their best, are merely entertaining.

While the Fort Scott 9mm TUI rounds did penetrate the soft armor he used, the test media Mr. Harrell uses is, well, valueless.

1.) While the ribs in the plastic packages was at some point living tissue, it does not correctly model living tissue. During its processing, it has been 1.) drained of blood, 2.) aged over a certain time period to allow certain enzymatic and bacterial processes to partially degrade the strength of the muscle fibers making it more tender (which means that its elastic strength has been diminished by some unknown quantity), and, 3.) may have been frozen—Heaven knows how many times—which also further degrades the strength of the muscle fibers making it up. As a result, because of these unknown factors as well as the degradation of the tissue itself, it is neither a valid nor reliable predictor of terminal ballistic performance.

2.) Harrell's use of citrus fruits as a surrogate for pulmonary tissues is ridiculous. Sometimes he uses oranges, other times he uses grapefruit. I am aware of no research that supports the use of various citrus fruits as surrogates for human soft tissues (of any type) and I'll bet that neither does Mr. Harrell.

3.) Finally, Mr. Harrell provides no documentation as to the condition of the soft body armor he is using in his test. For all we know, it could be brand new or it could be an older, highly-stressed, out-of-date product that he scrounged just for his video. Given the low-dollar production value typical of Mr. Harrell's videos, I am inclined to suspect that it is more likely the latter than the former. Either way, we have no idea what he used, its condition or its test-worthiness. I noticed that both of the test samples looked pretty 'worn'.


I’ll stick with HST or Gold Dots.

Copy that. :)

[paherne]

Well, if Harrell’s video can be believed, it appears to work well in defeating soft body armor. If you needed that capability, $1.15 a round would not be unreasonable. I’ll stick with HST or Gold Dots.

In many of Harrell's videos, you can see the label of the armor facing the camera, the one that says "This side towards body." Armor is constructed to function in a directional manner, with a strike face and back face. Shooting a piece of armor backwards from the way it is intended will lead to poor results.

[Joe in PNG]

Unless one is doing it for pure kewl factor, shooting fruit & veggies for serious ballistic purposes is just derp.

[the Schwartz]

In many of Harrell's videos, you can see the label of the armor facing the camera, the one that says "This side towards body." Armor is constructed to function in a directional manner, with a strike face and back face. Shooting a piece of armor backwards from the way it is intended will lead to poor results.

Great eyes! You win the Highest Attention to Detail Award™! I've never bothered examining Harrell's videos to the same degree as you simply because I find his work to be.....well....inane and extremely tedious. Your point is very well-taken. I'd have missed his failure to correctly orient the soft armor test panels if you hadn't mentioned that. That's another point that discredits the validity of these videos. Thanks. :cool:

[paherne]

Great eyes! You win the Highest Attention to Detail Award™! I've never bothered examining Harrell's videos to the same degree as you simply because I find his work to be.....well....inane and extremely tedious. Your point is very well-taken. I'd have missed his failure to correctly orient the soft armor test panels if you hadn't mentioned that. That's another point that discredits the validity of these videos. Thanks. :cool:

I watch his videos for the... acting.

[the Schwartz]

I watch his videos for the... acting.

I suspected that it was something "deep" like that. ;)

[Dog Face Gremlin]

Quote: "Ask yourself this; How many Pros like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, etc are carrying this stuff".

Tim Kennedy.........and he's been there.

[Dog Face Gremlin]

Also here in NJ JHP are not legal for carry so maybe this might be an alternative.....or a 45acp hardball round penetrating 30" of gelatin.

[Dog Face Gremlin]

anyone else carrying FS 45acp........

[Shawn Dodson]

Quote: "Ask yourself this; How many Pros like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, etc are carrying this stuff".

Tim Kennedy.........and he's been there.

Tim Kennedy or Travis Kennedy?

[Dog Face Gremlin]

See the interview with Shawn Ryan.....Tim kennedy.

[Shawn Dodson]

Fort Scott Munitions doesn't possess the requisite knowledge of wound ballistics to be making and selling credible defensive ammo.

See - https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57071-What-s-wrong-in-this-picture

[PNWTO]

See the interview with Shawn Ryan.....Tim kennedy.

Tim Kennedy may have some organizational membership that would/could support knowledge… but he’s a personality and an influencer and not necessarily a SME in matters.

He’s an athlete, not a coach.

And I say that as someone who would very much enjoy more lead-free handgun ammo options, but we aren’t quite there yet. I know some other “organizationally vetted” folks who like the G9 (non-woodsman) rounds, and their testing is much better done, but still not something I’d throw money at in large quantity. (Although I do have some G9 inbound.)

[Hambo]

Also here in NJ JHP are not legal for carry so maybe this might be an alternative.....or a 45acp hardball round penetrating 30" of gelatin.

Isn't Critical Duty NJ legal? That would give you large agency tested/vetted ammo. If that isn't the case, I'd buy with confidence from Lost River. No magical claims, just performance.

[SwampDweller]

Isn't Critical Duty NJ legal? That would give you large agency tested/vetted ammo. If that isn't the case, I'd buy with confidence from Lost River. No magical claims, just performance.

I could be wrong but I think I remember reading about at least one case where a prosecutor still went after a private citizen after a self defense shooting for using Critical Duty or Defense FTX rounds in an otherwise legal shooting in NJ. I don’t recall whether this individual was convicted, but I do recall that it sure seemed to make that individual’s life very difficult in no small part thanks to the Hornady loading. If I lived in such a jurisdiction I would go with the Lost River option in .45 ACP and not look back. I would not consider 9mm a viable choice in a jurisdiction where expanding ammunition is illegal or legal but makes post-shooting life even more difficult than it already will be. In fact I’d be very content with a .45 Colt/ACP full wadcutter in a revolver or .44 Special full wadcutter. (.38 wadcutters when smaller is needed and for J frames).

[0ddl0t]

Aside from hunting & target practice NJ prohibits carrying outside the home "any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet (https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2009/title-2c/2c-39/2c-39-3/)." The NJ state police firearms FAQ (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml) says:



Question: I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

Answer: Yes. They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you. They are legal to possess and use at a gun range. They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.

The FAQ does not address dumdum bullets. So what is a dum-dum?

The dum-dum was an ordinary Mark II .303 bullet which was then modified by filing off the jacket from the nose to expose the soft lead core in order to promote expansion. A Mark II .303 bullet so modified became a Mark II Special, but was better known colloquially as a DumDum bullet because the prototype was designed at the Dum Dum Arsenal in India by Neville Bertie-Clay in 1896.

Hollowpoints had already been in existence for decades and the British would almost immediately switch to the more effective hollowpoint design for the Mark III (1896), Mark IV (1897), and Mark V (1899) .303s, but the DumDum name became infamous in large part due to German propaganda during the Hague Convention of 1899 and again during WW1:
https://www.hi.uni-stuttgart.de/wgt/ww-one/Start/Bleed_White/Technology_and_Science/img/img_08_05.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Wundbalistik_DumDumGescho%C3%9F_001.jpg/1501px-Wundbalistik_DumDumGescho%C3%9F_001.jpg

Long story short, IANAL but NJ statute itself pretty clearly bans carry ammunition designed to expand, hollow nose or not. Your only argument would be that the NJ State Police FAQ creates ambiguity by saying polymer-filled cavities are not hollow points, implying they are legal to carry.

Edit:
That same law also prohibits armor piercing ammo, but NJ pretty narrowly defines armor piercing as:


(a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than.025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and (c) is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor
Since the TUI is solid copper and pure copper has a Rockwell B hardness of only around 35-45 depending on coldworking, it wouldn't qualify as NJ armor piercing despite the TUI penetrating some soft armors...