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RoyGBiv
04-30-2012, 10:03 AM
I'm still mulling over an incident from this weekend. Not gun related, no injuries to anyone, but a lesson in mindset for sure.
Thought it would be worth sharing. Would like to hear your comments about how you can train others to REACT instead of freeze.

We were at a pool party at a neighbors house on Friday night (yes, it's already swim temps in TX :rolleyes: ). The kids were all swimming, the adults chatting and eating ~25 feet away. I hear a loud voice that I recognize as one of mine, kid #1. One kid yelling at another to STOP doing something. I look up to see another kid (the "other kid") with an arm around my kid #2's neck. Kid #2 is under the water and kid #1 is yelling STOP. I immediately intervened. Turns out that the other kid and my kid #2 were splashing around (equally, from all accounts) and the other kid got mad and went on the offensive. This other kid has known behavior issues and my kids are aware (not aware enough, apparently) that they need to handle interactions with this other kid differently.

We had a long talk over the weekend about taking action in urgent situations when words are failing, and about the difference between using physical force to intervene in a dangerous situation when words fail vs. "fighting".

What disturbed me (still) is this.....

My kid #1, and several other kids (by the time I intervened it was clear the situation was serious and other kids had begun yelling) did nothing more than yell STOP. How do you teach kids (or adults) that in some situations words will never be adequate, and action, immediate action is necessary?

My kid #2, after some discussion, said that they didn't want to fight back because they didn't want to hurt anyone. It seemed to me that it was more "not knowing what to do, so doing nothing". How do you teach/train kids/adults to properly assess a potentially life threatening situation and REACT (fight, flee...), not freeze.?

Are these innate skills or can they be trained?
How do you begin to train children for these skills?
How do you train adults? [Out of 8 adults only two were aware of the situation before the danger had ended, myself and one other]

Makes me shiver to think of what you can lose for the lack of ability to react properly and immediately to a dangerous situation.

derekb
04-30-2012, 10:11 AM
I'm not a parent, but once kids hit school-age, any lesson about how physical action is sometimes needed is going to be 180 degrees out of phase with what they are told at school, isn't it?

In this age of zero-tolerance this and expulsions that, overcoming that stigma is a challenge worth considering, I guess.

MEH
04-30-2012, 10:21 AM
I'm not a parent, but once kids hit school-age, any lesson about how physical action is sometimes needed is going to be 180 degrees out of phase with what they are told at school, isn't it?

In this age of zero-tolerance this and expulsions that, overcoming that stigma is a challenge worth considering, I guess.

It's a problem alright. One way I have dealt with this is to become known to school administrators and teachers. Volunteering helps (I do chess club in elementary school.) Then, I tell my kids that if they are defending a friend or it's a serious situation I will back them to the hilt no matter what the school does. Being known has kept my kids from being suspended a couple of times where if I wasn't known to the school they would have received auto suspensions.

As far as non school situations especially around water, I've taught the kids that horse play has it's limits. And keep and eye on them. Responding to situations is a hard thing to teach, but the OP has a great teaching moment with his situation. Use it.

JHC
04-30-2012, 11:10 AM
Edit to: I totally missed the point. :o

Zhurdan
04-30-2012, 11:24 AM
Also not a parent, but as much as it can be avoided... avoid the situation all together. Explain to them that some people (kid with known issues) should be kept at arms (or greater) length and why there may be a potential problem. Especially near water, as it only takes a second to become a tragic situation.

My niece is 16 and absolutely beautiful (does modelling) and it garners her some very unnerving attention at times. So much so that her parents are concerned about her. My "unwelcome" suggestion was to avoid the triggers (progressively more provocative modelling). That isn't going to happen so I bought her a pass for a self defense class at the local rec center. That also didn't go over very well. As much as it bothers me, some people (parents) cannot or will not listen even in the face of their own fears. (not saying you in this situation) This also applies to the other kids parents... they have responsibilities too that cannot be shrugged off just because the kids are playing in the pool while they chit chat. If their child has known issues, they need to monitor that more than what you portrayed in your story.

At a young age, getting physical probably isn't the best solution as kids tend to not forget that stuff if they get put in their place. Being the other kid has known issues, it'd be likely that he'd seek retribution at such time when adults weren't around. Not that your kids shouldn't be taught to defend themselves but they most likely spend an inordinate amount of time away from you and near said "other kid" (school) and that just opens the door to more issues.

will_1400
04-30-2012, 11:50 AM
The whole "Zero Tolerence" thing is pure *CENSORED* in my opinion. Especially when in my old high school even if you didn't do anything except stand there take the beating you were still arrested and going downtown.

As far as recognizing when violence is necessessary, that's something that can be taught, but it isn't easy in many respects; espeically with so many people being almost completely oblivious to how the world is. One consistant hang up I've come across is the student "not wanting to hurt someone" and sometimes they just don't get that the other person (not saying "guy" because one of the most vicious beatings I've witnessed was done by a woman) doesn't care about hurting others and likely will only understand their mistake if they're dealt with violently.

That's just based on my experience so YMMV.

RoyGBiv
04-30-2012, 12:24 PM
I didn't intend for this to be a discussion focused on children. Of course I'd like to continue building a "mindset for action" [Assess, Analyze, Adjust, Implement, PDCA, or whatever acronym you know it by] for my kids, but the real problem is that so many adults seem incapable of responding constructively to danger... My pool example was just a reminder (to myself) that these behaviors exist in young people too... and that training kids not to freeze at danger is as important as training adults. I didn't intend for this to become a discussion about kids and use of force issues...

Let me attempt to refocus the discussion a bit...

What surprises me constantly about adult behavior is the seemingly vast majority of adults that freeze with disbelief when faced with crisis. It's as if the event that's unfolding does not "register" for the danger that it is, or that adults become so focused on "realizing" the danger that they do not act to avoid or remedy the danger in an expeditious manner.... You hear the precursors to it it all the time... "Do you REALLY need to lock the car doors just because we're in THIS neighborhood?", "I can't believe that boy did that, he's such a nice young man".... and the aftermath... "I never saw that coming", "I didn't know what to do (so I did nothing"), or the City of Washington DC's advice to rape victims to "submit to avoid antagonizing your attacker".

I remember the first time I realized that my view of the world was "different". 4th of July, many years ago. I was maybe 17 or 18. A street party. Lots of people around, from small kids to adults. We're shooting off fireworks (mostly directed up) and somebody yells "FIRE". About 15 feet away is a van, with a fire burning brightly under the gas tank, flames licking up and around the tank. We found out later that the van's tank was leaking badly and some fireworks set off a gasoline fire.

At the first yell of FIRE, everyone froze. Maybe 3 seconds later everyone scattered. I remember yelling for a fire extinguisher. Everyone is either running, staring frozen at the flames or had disappeared. I keep yelling for an extinguisher. Eventually one of the adults "woke up" (I remember watching the expression on their face change from "look at the pretty flames" to "oh shit, I have an extinguisher in the house I better go get it") ran into their house and came back with an extinguisher. I ran over and put the fire out. Only one other person thought enough to take action (unfortunately he was emptying the contents of a cooler (melted ice) on the fire, causing the fire to spread). Why, from a group of 50 or more people, were two 18 year old's the only ones to take constructive action?

Why didn't anyone else think to get an extinguisher? What makes people "disbelieve" or be unable to quickly process danger into action (I suppose running away was a good action for many folks to take).? How do you train for not only situation awareness but for the DO part when the SHTF?

ETA:
The discussion I had with my kids was mostly about reinforcing that they have "permission" to use "appropriate physical force" when faced with physical danger and to reinforce that when there is an ongoing physical threat it is both necessary and proper to use more than words to solve the problem. But I'm really more focused on how to train an adult to PDCA when faced with physical jeopardy.

JHC
04-30-2012, 01:13 PM
Thanks Roy. I totally missed your point! ;) I thought it WAS principally about kids!

Recently we had a safety/security meeting in this urban high rise. The security guy (former mil) briefed on a variety of emergencies. His active shooter brief included stories from the Atlanta "day trader" that went postal and killed some folks. The briefer was apparently a first responder to this event.
Anyway, he said the shooter entered an office and shot the receptionist. Then walked into a room full of cubicles. Survivors said they knew the sound was a gunshot. But what did they do?

They all stood up to look. And as the briefer's story went, the shooter shot EIGHT people as they stood and stared in shocked disbelief. Un-freakin' believable. Probably stems from no training, no tools, and no fighting mindset. Some folks seem easy to teach. They get it quickly. Some never seem to. I don't know why.

voodoo_man
04-30-2012, 01:24 PM
I do not have any kids (not for the next 7 months anyway), so I cannot speak to how to raise a child or teach a child. I have seen this type of psychological roadblock, a failure to act, and to a greater extent cognitive dissonance in adults.

Grossman called it the "universal human phobia" in his books, its definitely true of interpersonal contact especially violence.

I can only speak from my personal experiences of being in prolonged fist fights inside homes or on the streets and having my backup stand there, looking at me without moving or radioing for help. Later telling me they just "froze," it happens.

There are those who can act, there are those who cannot. Unless they are tested in real world situations (after being trained on proper response, dynamically and with great discipline) they will not know, nor will others know of their abilities.

With adults there are social factors, like stigma, which may induce action. (I say may because who knows) The adult has to be in a specific situation in order to have those social pressures active (police officer, officer in military, FF/EMS, etc).

Children/kids do not have that type of social understanding.

I have seen this occur first hand with people I work with, with victims/witnesses/complainants and even myself when I first got into law enforcement, witnessing things I have never seen before (fatal accidents, multiple shooting victims, dead babies, etc) but I had expectations of it occurring, trained myself ahead of time for it, and came quickly out of it, doing what was required of me.

I know I hit a lot of complex points without going in depth, just giving my personal observations/opinions.

David Armstrong
04-30-2012, 02:30 PM
At the risk of channeling my inner professor, such a reaction is normal and to be expected. When confronted with a new experience, particularly a stresssful experience, the body has a tendency to freeze in place until it has a chance to process the information and develop a solution. There are all sorts of interesting (to me) psychological and anthropological reasons for that, but recognize it as normal. The solution is to teach the body that this is not a new situation. That is the essence of training, it allows us to move this reaction further down the road. So we train, and train, and train. Interestingly, visualization seems to work about as well as actual training. So the more one thinks about these things, the more one works them out in your head, the less likey one is to freeze up.

BaiHu
04-30-2012, 03:29 PM
My kid #2, after some discussion, said that they didn't want to fight back because they didn't want to hurt anyone. It seemed to me that it was more "not knowing what to do, so doing nothing". How do you teach/train kids/adults to properly assess a potentially life threatening situation and REACT (fight, flee...), not freeze.?

I teach martial arts from age 4-60's and I just had a major talk with some of my teenage students and it applies to all the age groups we're discussing.

Mainly, Roy already pointed out the larger issue in the above snippet I've taken out. We are in an age of fantasy. My close friends and students' parents talk about this all the time with me. FYI, I'm 37 and I live in a suburban area. I believe that's relevant, b/c I'm not the 'I remember in Da Nang...' hard-ass, who really 'saw some sh*%', but I'm a professional, who has been teaching for 15 years and I have seen a disturbing trend creeping into the culture of young children and eventually into our future 'adults'.

I know I'm going a bit roundy-round, but I'll come back after I fill in the gaps as to where I'm coming from. When I first started teaching when I was 22, it was easy and I had NO teaching skills. Kids were as well behaved as I could ever have expected-they were good soldiers who sounded off in unison. 95% of kids were physical and 5% were not too physical, but all of them 'put it on the line'. They were there to get the most out of the class as they could and they did.

Flash 15 years later and 90% of kids want to have a personal conversation with me as to what they know about something and I'm talking about 4 year olds. Now, I'm in NJ, so I understand that 'everyone's special' and everyone can be president, etc, but it's BAD. Now, 95% are not physical and the 5% that are physical are great, but they are also involved in football, lacrosse, baseball, basketball, soccer, tennis, swimming etc, so they never FINISH anything unless it fits perfectly in their future transcripts for their college application. They are all straight A students and are looking to go to Harvard. You get the drift? You see the rift? They all want to be perfect and special, but no one wants to scrape a knee or get a bad grade along the way. Nobody pays with sweat and blood anymore, they all want drag and drop answers to the tests so they can move on 'to the next thing'.

Everyone thinks that being white collar is the only way to be successful. Now, back to the teenagers.

I ask them, "When was the last time you failed and you were given a second chance in school?" They all answer that they had failed at something in the last few months to a few weeks ago and they were given a 2nd chance. I ask them, "What if a bully punches you in the face? Do you think they'll stop and ask if you'd like to stand up and have a second chance to block that punch?" Of course I've got their attention, so I press further. "All of you practice as if you'll get a second chance, but if I tell you I'm going to kick you here or punch you there, how will you practice now?"

You can see what I'm driving at; we're not in a nation where we have too little information, we have too little experience with the information. Everyone can tell me that they've seen this and seen that and 'know' about this, but very few people have really BTDT! Most people don't dig deep enough or long enough into anything these days.

Flash to an adult friend who's doing a Phd in History, he's 47 and an ex-JAG and commodities/exchange lawyer, and he sees all these 'kids' in class with him that have all of these opinions about historical occurrences, but don't know the details of the occurrence they have an opinion on. So, when he asks them a question that has a detail that they didn't consider, he finds out that they haven't considered it b/c they don't KNOW their history well enough to have considered all the details, but by golly, they've got a 20 page opinion on something they don't know.

All right, so what's your solution blabber mouth :D

If you have kids, family, close friends and you want them to be safe and they are willing to 'train' in some capacity with you or a professional, make it real. Anyone who wants to know how to react in a bad situation, must be able to experience fear and stress or they will never perform when it counts.

We all have stupid fire drills, but it almost never happens, we all have seat belts and airbags, but almost nothing ever happens. We live in an overly safety conscious environment, so when something goes wrong and it's not a 'drill', people really don't know what to do, b/c they've never BTDT. The majority of people live in a near utopian state, especially those who legislate the thought process behind the "no child left behind, no driver injured, no bankster jailed, no criminal harmed in this prison, no animals killed in this hamburger etc."

Second, if your child isn't physical enough (for many legitimate reasons other than XBOX-itis) to join a contact sport of some sort, have your child volunteer for something at the first aid squad, fire station, children's hospital, etc. Get them into the pain of real life without scarring them to the point that they don't go out and participate in life.

Most people don't understand how quickly life can change and the window of opportunity will only stay open for so long, whether it's 'that someone special' or a blazing fire behind you, you'd better be able to get through that window quick and without hesitation, b/c it will close without a thought to how you feel about missing out.

In the end, people need to be reminded of the preciousness of life and how closely death holds its hand or they will forget how to defend it.

peterb
04-30-2012, 04:01 PM
In some cases, I think people are so used to having professionals step in that they forget that they can make a difference. They're also afraid of dong the wrong thing, so they do nothing. As a volunteer EMT/firefighter I see this fairly often.

A good first step might teaching your kids that there is always SOMETHING they can do. It may not be the "best" solution, but it breaks the freeze. Move to shelter. Make a phone call. Get a flashlight. Help the other kids. Hold a t-shirt on the wound. Tell them that they don't have to solve the whole problem -- just do what they can to make it a little bit better. Teach them basic first aid, self-rescue, and people care skills -- competence breeds confidence. Play "what if...?" or "what could you do...?" games. When you go somewhere new, have them find all the exits/fire extinguishers/alarms, etc. And help them think about options -- there are many ways to solve most problems. They need to know that they do have some control over what happens to them and the people around them.

RoyGBiv
04-30-2012, 07:52 PM
I've got plenty for another good conversation with my kids for sure...

A good first step might teaching your kids that there is always SOMETHING they can do. ........ Tell them that they don't have to solve the whole problem -- just do what they can to make it a little bit better. ..... confidence breeds confidence. ..... They need to know that they do have some control over what happens to them and the people around them.

Interesting, BaiHu, to see such a dramatic change in only one generation.
Some years ago, one of my kids was testing for her green belt. She was a tiny thing at the time. 7 or 8 years old, going up against this boy who was probably 3 years older, 25 pounds heavier and more than a head taller. He underestimated her and she knocked him on his ass. A room full of parents applauded, and the other kids laughed. I knew it was about to turn bad. You could see it in the boys face. Her embarrassed opponent came back at her in a way that I would like to have seen stopped. I pushed my way to the edge of the mat, but stayed out of the fray, barely. In the end she came away with a green belt, a bloody lip and the knowledge that she could hold her own against a bigger opponent. I love it when she back-sasses me, but I'll never tell her so or I'll be dead meat. :rolleyes:

But what about adults? Old dogs, new tricks... How?


The solution is to teach the body that this is not a new situation. That is the essence of training, it allows us to move this reaction further down the road. So we train, and train, and train. Interestingly, visualization seems to work about as well as actual training. So the more one thinks about these things, the more one works them out in your head, the less likey one is to freeze up.
I agree that the notion of "this can't be happening to me, here, right now" is at the heart of it. Visualization... great suggestion. I find myself reading this sub-forum for just this reason..... What else can be a useful training tool?

Great stuff folks... THANKS.!

Noleshooter
04-30-2012, 09:18 PM
Some people, whether it be a result of nature or nurture, will take action in an emergency while others will freeze. This topic reminds me of the video from disney where the lady is screaming while the security guard wrestles with the crazy guy.


In this case I have to say, the child who was screaming did help in that he/she got help to come. It might be as simple as you having some heart to heart conversations about when it is OK to act. Our society has made it such a risk to intervene on behalf of others.

I was a middle school teacher for a few years and despite my opinion on teachers unions, I decided to join because it was the best way to get coverage for events just like this. Teachers breaking up fights get sued all the time and I knew teachers who refused to intervene for that reason. All it takes is one bruise and a litigious parent to ruin your life for a while, even if you are eventually exonerated.



I think it's good that you let your daughter get that bloody lip. A person learns a lot about themselves when they get hit in the mouth and get back up. I'm a big advocate of martial arts training (as long as it's not a McDojo) and contact sports such as football and wrestling.



I think it's also worth noting that this is a forum of people who have recognized that the world is a dangerous place and have made the decision to carry weapons and train ourselves on how to effectively use them should the worst happen. That is a big mental step. Most of the people in this country are either oblivious to the world around them or are simply unwilling to act. This will be the crowd that when they find out you carry asks you "why do you need to carry a gun" or "that's what the police are for."

Good luck with the kids and I'm glad to hear everyone made it our safe.

BaiHu
04-30-2012, 09:18 PM
But what about adults? Old dogs, new tricks... How?


Peterb said some spot on stuff and less long-winded than me-my cross to bear that I tossed on this fire.

As for the old dog/new tricks (or anyone with life experience for that matter), as long as it isn't family, it is best, IMO, to walk them through the logic of your thought process through their own template of expertise.

Example: Say the person you're trying to reach is a baker, which is as far from the 'danger zone' as we can expect in this conversation. I would say, "Look at how you bake, there is an organization that comes only from experience. You always do x before y and if you don't keep an eye on something every z seconds/minutes, then you can ruin a whole days work, and it often helps to create an assembly line with younger/apprentice types working on the less complex details so you can oversee the process.

"People might think that it's just twirl for 5 minutes, flatten for 10 minutes and pop it in the oven at 350 for 15 minutes and voila! But, b/c you've done this for so long, you know there's an art to this-a smell you know, a texture you feel, etc. Same thing in a crisis. You approach it with the same methodical awareness that you would your baking. First, you assess the 'job', second, you assess the 'materials' that are handy and distinguish them from what you 'need' (cold compress, bandage, etc) from what you 'want' (professional help, 911, fire dept, local PD). Then you decide what is most 'timely' and approach that part of the 'job' first and you gather and enlist help so you don't juggle too many things and lose focus on the 'job'."

Peterb made this point perfectly about just doing 1 thing helpful is sometimes enough-you don't have to tackle the whole crisis single-handedly; start with the small/important things first.

peterb
04-30-2012, 10:05 PM
I'm no expert at this stuff, but I have had some experience at putting volunteers to work at fire/accident scenes. Folks generally want to help but are so afraid of being wrong that they don't trust their instincts or experience.

It might help to think about basic principles that are almost always "right":
Warm & dry is good -> find shelter, grab your jacket, see if anyone is shivering, etc.
More light is good -> turn on lights, hold flashlights for people working, signal, etc.
Staying out of traffic is good
Helping the very old and very young is good.
Keeping people calm is good
and so on...

With kids, it might be good to find a way to say "yes!" whenever they ask "Can I help?" There's always something they can do, and that's a great lesson to reinforce. I do the same thing on calls. Something as simple as holding a flashlight for me or holding the patient's hand helps me do my job better, and we all win.

TCinVA
04-30-2012, 10:40 PM
There have actually been a number of books written about those who have survived incidents ranging from shipwrecks to events like 9/11 and what they did differently than people who also had opportunities to survive, but didn't. "The Unthinkable - Who survives disaster strikes and why" is a good book to start with.

The core of the issue seems to be the ability to acknowledge the possibility of a life threatening situation, the resolve to do all in your power to survive it, and having a plan...even a sub-optimal one...that your computer can pull out of the OHS**T!!! file instantaneously.

Example: The earthquake in Virginia some months back. I was in my office when it happened. The instant it happened I lit out of the building like I was on fire. I hadn't specifically considered the possibility of an earthquake before, but I had gone through some disaster scenarios involving industrial accidents or even terrorist incidents near my office. Some as a matter of just my own little brain thinking through the more unpleasant possibilities of life, some the result of formal disaster recovery planning. I was in a meeting where a scenario was handed down by management and people began discussing handling computer systems and other things in this sort of event. I brought proceedings to a grinding halt by saying:

"Umm, folks? In the scenario presented we have far bigger problems than whether or not system X is brought down gracefully. We are discussing a situation which endangers life. Priorities 1-100,000 are getting people the hell out of the impact zone so they don't become a casualty and keeping access clear for emergency responders to perform rescue operations." Blank stares from the room. I remember reading somewhere that when the planes struck the towers on 9/11 a bunch of people in the towers shut down their computers. Why on earth would someone perform such an irrational task when hundreds of tons of flaming jet liner were currently burning people around them to death? Because under stress we revert to whatever plan is in our head...and nobody in the room could process why having a "disaster plan" which did not place preservation of human life as the primary concern was raging idiocy. They did not grasp that in a life-threatening, event there is a limited amount of time in which you can positively impact the outcome of the situation. This is true for events that range from treatment of cancer to avoiding/surviving an accident on the freeway. If the disaster plan does not have as step 1: Preserve human life, then it can cause a lethal delay in people responding appropriately to the situation. There's a reason why law enforcement trainers in police academies talk about officer safety as a primary concern in every possible situation....it ain't because they like the sound of their voice when they use the words "officer safety" or like looking at dashcam footage of cops being killed. That repetition stamps priorities in impressionable minds that come back to benefit them when things go pear shaped.

My plan has always been that if there is a disaster strike I intend to get the hell away from the problem with all possible speed the moment I have a reasonable suspicion of danger. I had never seriously pondered the possibility of an earthquake, but when one happened (I had never experienced an earthquake before) the instant I recognized what it was I started moving without conscious thought. I literally don't remember actually having a conscious thought between forming the mental concept of "earthquake" and being outside the building. While I was outside, most co workers were inside asking each other what just happened. Then they hopped onto internal comms systems and were doing the "OMG EARTHQUAKE!!!" status updates while I was looking the building over for signs of possible damage or structural weakness before going back in. I didn't worry about the business process stuff. Meanwhile for others that was their first concern.

How we think conditions how we respond. That's why it's critical to get priorities straight ahead of time.

EMC
04-30-2012, 11:11 PM
As they taught us in pre-deployment training, when you get ambushed, do something! Something, even the wrong thing, is likely better than doing nothing. Even better is to ensure you're pre-programmed to mindlessly do the right thing.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

RoyGBiv
05-01-2012, 09:00 AM
A good first step might teaching your kids that there is always SOMETHING they can do. ........ Tell them that they don't have to solve the whole problem -- just do what they can to make it a little bit better. ..... confidence breeds confidence. ..... They need to know that they do have some control over what happens to them and the people around them.
The above was the focus of a very productive discussion with the kids (and wife) last night.... Thanks.!

For adults.... all good suggestions re: visualization, training, planning, etc....
FYI... The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why (http://www.amazon.com/The-Unthinkable-Survives-Disaster-Strikes/dp/0307352900) $10.20 + shipping from Amazon or $13.99 on Kindle.

Another recommendation from a Red Cross training class I took a while ago still sticks with me....
If you see people standing around bewildered during an emergency, give them something specific to do. Point, be definitive, command... "YOU.. Go get that fire extinguisher from the break room".... "YOU... Do you have a cell phone?.... Call 911 and tell them x, y and Z"..."..... "Who here has medical training? Does anyone know someone in the area that has medical training but is not standing here right now?.... Go get them and bring them here"... And so on..

peterb
05-01-2012, 09:10 AM
Morning dog walk thoughts.....

Once you get away from immediate life threats, another reason that people get stuck is because they focus on the tool they don't have. "I couldn't! I didn't have a _________!"

A good way to prevent this, and expand your options, is to restate the problem in more general terms. Wilderness medicine classes are a great example of this.

"I need a cervical collar" becomes "I need to keep his head from moving."
"I need a stretcher" becomes "I need to move my patient" or even "I need my patient to be in a safe place."

For self-defense, "I need a gun" might become "I need a weapon", or even "I need to keep him from harming my family."

At home with kids, "I need the scissors" could become "I need to cut this" or "I need smaller pieces of paper"

This may sound like just a stupid word game, but it's not. It's a way to think about problems that opens you to a range of solutions. And if you make it a habit, it will work under stress.

You do have to balance this with teaching the importance of using the right tool for the job. A butter knife is not a universal screwdriver. But if you understand the tradeoffs you can make appropriate choices.

Another tool I've used is "How would someone have solved this 200 years ago?" A couple of winters ago this got me from "We need a tow truck" to "We need to get the wheel out of the ditch", and then to a neighbor's lumber pile for the parts for a couple of big levers.

BaiHu
05-01-2012, 10:53 AM
Great points peterb!

My long winded post never hit this point directly, but I see critical thinking and problem solving skills being exchanged for "just give me the answer", "just give me the tool", or "maybe the answer is on my phone."

Less people are being taught to "work it out" and then apply that thought process in a practical manner.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

F-Trooper05
05-01-2012, 11:52 AM
My dad's advice to me when I was a kid was "If you know a fight's about to go down and you can't avoid it, then hit first and hit hard." The pros of that advice are that I never lost a fight. The cons are I was suspended from school on more than one occasion.

BaiHu
05-01-2012, 12:58 PM
My dad's advice to me when I was a kid was "If you know a fight's about to go down and you can't avoid it, then hit first and hit hard." The pros of that advice are that I never lost a fight. The cons are I was suspended from school on more than one occasion.

LOL! My brother always said that I came from another father-must've been yours :cool: b/c I've always followed that same advice although no one in my family ever gave it to me.

HeadHunter
05-01-2012, 02:23 PM
When I was doing a lot of Force on Force training, this was what we most commonly saw:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/HeadHunter_album/Training/Doofusprocess2.jpg

It was so common that we made a flowchart for it.

cutter
05-01-2012, 08:31 PM
When I worked in EMS we used to say "Do something, even if it is wrong."

My gripe is with people who confuse surviving a incident through dumb luck, with surviving from good training and superior intellect.

Corlissimo
05-01-2012, 09:38 PM
...What makes people "disbelieve" or be unable to quickly process danger into action (I suppose running away was a good action for many folks to take).? How do you train for not only situation awareness but for the DO part when the SHTF?


I think it's a combination of factors that's responsible for the majority of people reacting, or NOT reacting, in an appropriate way:

1) Society - As time has passed, many in this country have had a "soft" or "easy" life. Mainstream society has not placed any real weight on personal responsibility. People just are not really held accountable for their actions. It is the age of "the victim". There are more socially acceptable ways to avoid "personal accountability/responsibility" now than there seem to have been in the past (Pre-1960's) "Someone else will do something... won't they?"

2) Family Upbringing - This often mirrors mainstream society. There are exceptions, of course, and from what I've seen and who I've known in my life, many times folks raised in rural areas are not afflicted with this lack of personal responsibility. This is most likely due to the fact that they've had to handle responsibility at an early age. They earned trust through the handling of that responsibility, and therefore, gained a solid work ethic. They, in turn, pass this down to their children, and so on.

These are just a couple things that I truly believe create so much inaction, or inappropriate action, to situations that clearly merit a definitive response. But, lacking the proper framework and sense of personal accountability, many adults just "freeze" in disbelief of what they are seeing/hearing.

Bottom line: It's highly unlikely that any one person can change this on a large scale as it's a systemic issue.

Handling it as you are, with your children, is the best way to affect change. It's just that many, many others will need to do likewise for quite a while in order to have an impact on our social mores.

Sometimes an event might help to affect change. As I think about it, I remember back to 9/11. That event certainly had a strong impact on just about every American. It galvanized society. I lived in NY (Long Island) back then. Even people I know who were "oblivious" in many respects were moved to action. There was a sense of urgency in the things that they did. Most of them were finally "plugged in" to the scene as it were. The effects were tangible, and still are in NYC. People are nicer there than before that day. That there is still a greater sense of community in a city that large speaks to the power of that event to change people's perspective. It does seem to be fading, but the impact was still substantial, and somewhat long-lasting. Pearl Harbor was another such event.

My point is that unless each individual really sees the need to make personal changes to their mindset it just isn't going to happen. Not even with external events like those above. It all starts with the person in the mirror.

Of course all of this is worth exactly what you paid to read it.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

TommyG
05-02-2012, 08:39 AM
Great points peterb!

My long winded post never hit this point directly, but I see critical thinking and problem solving skills being exchanged for "just give me the answer", "just give me the tool", or "maybe the answer is on my phone."

Less people are being taught to "work it out" and then apply that thought process in a practical manner.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

I think this is the root of the inability of many to cope with even the smallest deviation from their nice, bland, safe universe. I see it in a number of people that work for me (those that last). Most of my folks think will seek out the solution to a challenge on their own. They will exhaust all other options prior to comming to me for help and often come up with very creative solutions to the challenges that they face. They are also far and away the best perfomers in my group. They also have great family lives and don't seem to get too rattled when the grim reality of life comes visiting.

I have and have had some in the past that simply run to me for an answer every time they hit even the smallest snag. Often the will come to me for a solution to the same issue over and over again because that is easier than writing it down or locking it down in the memory bank somewhere. I will make them work it out for themselves then come to me so I can critique their solution. This breeds independence in some and contempt in others. I can very easily envision the latter folkes peeking over the tops of their cubes, rooted to the floor, in the active shooter scenario noted earlier. No one ever forced them to make decisions for themselves and run with it. A less than perfect decision certainly trumps no decision at all in nearly every situation a person could face.

JHC
05-02-2012, 09:55 AM
I think this is the root of the inability of many to cope with even the smallest deviation from their nice, bland, safe universe. I see it in a number of people that work for me (those that last). Most of my folks think will seek out the solution to a challenge on their own. They will exhaust all other options prior to comming to me for help and often come up with very creative solutions to the challenges that they face. They are also far and away the best perfomers in my group. They also have great family lives and don't seem to get too rattled when the grim reality of life comes visiting.

I have and have had some in the past that simply run to me for an answer every time they hit even the smallest snag. Often the will come to me for a solution to the same issue over and over again because that is easier than writing it down or locking it down in the memory bank somewhere. I will make them work it out for themselves then come to me so I can critique their solution. This breeds independence in some and contempt in others. I can very easily envision the latter folkes peeking over the tops of their cubes, rooted to the floor, in the active shooter scenario noted earlier. No one ever forced them to make decisions for themselves and run with it. A less than perfect decision certainly trumps no decision at all in nearly every situation a person could face.

Perhaps you've seen this before. http://www.nato.int/nrdc-it/about/message_to_garcia.pdf

Sorry for the off topic.

BaiHu
05-02-2012, 12:56 PM
Perhaps you've seen this before. http://www.nato.int/nrdc-it/about/message_to_garcia.pdf

Sorry for the off topic.

I've seen it before. It is someone's sigline-maybe MechEng, right?

I think it's on topic, FWIW ;)

TommyG
05-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Perhaps you've seen this before. http://www.nato.int/nrdc-it/about/message_to_garcia.pdf

Sorry for the off topic.

I had not seen that before. Thank you for the great read. I guess it is also a good reminder that human nature has always been human nature. It is easy to get into the "these kids today" or "society today" mindset and forget that people have been dealing with that same human nature forever.

Joe in PNG
05-02-2012, 02:01 PM
Funny thing- one of my co-workers managed to cook the wiring on a golf cart- walking past a fire extinguisher to yell "fire". In fact, the boss had to come out, grab the extinguisher, and then put out the fire.

JHC
05-02-2012, 02:57 PM
I had not seen that before. Thank you for the great read. I guess it is also a good reminder that human nature has always been human nature. It is easy to get into the "these kids today" or "society today" mindset and forget that people have been dealing with that same human nature forever.

No kidding! You'd have thought he was railing against Gen X or Millenials. Nothing new under the sun.

Corlissimo
05-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Perhaps you've seen this before. http://www.nato.int/nrdc-it/about/message_to_garcia.pdf

Sorry for the off topic.

Never saw that before. Excellent read and very thought provoking.
I also really liked the section on Initiative in the beginning.

In a previous life (IT Manager) I used to tell my guys:
"Do the right thing, for the right reason, at the right time."

If they could get even 2 of 3 of those accomplished then we would always be ahead of the game in most respects.


PDF saved for use with my 18 yr old son, as well as my grandson, when the time and circumstances are right.

Thanks again!

Corlissimo
05-02-2012, 05:05 PM
...It is easy to get into the "these kids today" or "society today" mindset and forget that people have been dealing with that same human nature forever.

This is so true. I know I typically lambast Society in general when it comes to topics like this, but I think one still needs to ask themselves: "Where did Rowan 'learn' to be the man he was?"

Are the "Rowans" in the world the way they are because of some innate trait they were blessed with? Or is it something else?

I guess what I'm really driving at is: Is it "nature", or "nurture" that creates "Rowans"?
In my mind the latter is much more likely to be the driving force.

peterb
05-02-2012, 06:23 PM
Excellent read and very thought provoking.

"A message to Garcia" is the first selection on the USMC professional reading program list.
http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/MCU/LLI/PROFESSIONAL%20READING%20PROGRAM.HTM

JHC
05-02-2012, 06:39 PM
This is so true. I know I typically lambast Society in general when it comes to topics like this, but I think one still needs to ask themselves: "Where did Rowan 'learn' to be the man he was?"

Are the "Rowans" in the world the way they are because of some innate trait they were blessed with? Or is it something else?

I guess what I'm really driving at is: Is it "nature", or "nurture" that creates "Rowans"?
In my mind the latter is much more likely to be the driving force.

The panic and freeze thing is a problematic part of human nature. But we have lots of folks too who will "ride to the sound of the guns" - figuratively or literally in the case of our Greatest Generation 2.0 volunteer military. We grow them now. With a 20 and 23 year old son I've been around a lot of young men women in their circles and the majority are pretty solid citizens. I don't worry about it too much. My view may be somewhat distorted living where I do and being as heavily exposed to a senior military college and the young people that seek it out.

There may be some innate traits. But a lot of such character is learned/trained IMO. I know one young former knucklehead who has grown much more Rowan-like just in the last couple of years. I recall reading George Patton's letters to his father when he was a cadet. He seemed quite insecure, unsure of himself. Doubting his ability. It takes time, experience, coaching/training.

Here is another "message to Garcia" related site that focuses on Rowan. http://www.belikerowan.com/message/ "Be like Rowan."

Corlissimo
05-02-2012, 06:57 PM
"A message to Garcia" is the first selection on the USMC professional reading program list.
http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/MCU/LLI/PROFESSIONAL%20READING%20PROGRAM.HTM

Well, then that certainly explains a lot. I've met quite a few Marines and liked every one of them without exception.
When they speak, they tell it like it is... no BS, period! It speaks volumes about the training they receive.

That's a pretty heavy list. I've covered 6 of the titles, mostly the ones that have been made into movies. I always like to read books instead of seeing the movie... and usually the movie just lets me down in comparison to the book.

Looks like I can find some new reading material there. Thanks for the link!

TommyG
05-03-2012, 08:01 AM
This is so true. I know I typically lambast Society in general when it comes to topics like this, but I think one still needs to ask themselves: "Where did Rowan 'learn' to be the man he was?"

Are the "Rowans" in the world the way they are because of some innate trait they were blessed with? Or is it something else?

I guess what I'm really driving at is: Is it "nature", or "nurture" that creates "Rowans"?
In my mind the latter is much more likely to be the driving force.

I think there is a lot of nurture involved. I grew up in a community of self sufficient people so I went to school with other kids who were taught at a young age to be self sufficient. Hard work and self reliance were the order of the day at home and in the community at large. I did not understand at the time how lucky I was that I grew up where and how I did. I go home now, and it is a very different place with very different values.

I think life experiences will help with not freezing in a crisis but it is hard telling what will work for some and what would for others. Mil and LE folks are going to have a leg up here due to some of their training but I am sure some freeze too. Just learing to react calmly when things go sideways is a good start. Go out surfing on a double overhead day and learn to calmly hold your breath and not waste your O2 while three waves hold you down. Go rock climbing and get you ass way out in the wind on some really sketchy holds. Race something. You have to go too fast and lose it sometimes to learn your limitations. Just get outside your comfort zone and learn to work in that environment.

Corlissimo
05-03-2012, 09:17 AM
I think there is a lot of nurture involved. I grew up in a community of self sufficient people so I went to school with other kids who were taught at a young age to be self sufficient. Hard work and self reliance were the order of the day at home and in the community at large. I did not understand at the time how lucky I was that I grew up where and how I did. I go home now, and it is a very different place with very different values.


While I didn't grow up in an environment like that, I was fortunate enough to have a father who was one of 9 children. His father was a "hard" man by today's standards. My dad growing up during that immediate post-Depression period learned a lot and passed that down to me. I was lucky to have had him in my life showing me the ropes and learning from his example.



I think life experiences will help with not freezing in a crisis but it is hard telling what will work for some and what would for others. Mil and LE folks are going to have a leg up here due to some of their training but I am sure some freeze too. Just learing to react calmly when things go sideways is a good start. Go out surfing on a double overhead day and learn to calmly hold your breath and not waste your O2 while three waves hold you down. Go rock climbing and get you ass way out in the wind on some really sketchy holds. Race something. You have to go too fast and lose it sometimes to learn your limitations. Just get outside your comfort zone and learn to work in that environment.

Good points indeed. Personally, I have not had many issues when dealing with life's uglier/harder moments... at the time. After, it can be a different story depending on the event. Getting out there, and out of our comfort zone, is so important. I used to race motorcylces, had a few nasty get-offs at 120+ mph. Fell on the street too. But those were all learning experiences.

IMHO there are just too many folks these days that try to protect their kids from every bump, nick, scratch, and bruise. That child will likely not be an "adventurous" person in their adult years. Probably just the opposite... the epitome of someone frozen like a deer in the headlights. That's a very unfortunate position for one to find themselves in. Although I don't believe I'm one of those people, just because it hasn't happened to me yet doesn't mean it can't. All it might take is the right set of circumstances, and/or involve someone very close, and all my "beliefs" could be shattered. I've always said: "The worst person to lie to is yourself."

It's a very sobering thought. One that drives me forward looking for ways to stress inoculate myself in as many ways as possible. Visualizations, as someone mentioned earlier, can help for sure. But, I'd always like more concrete proofing whenever and wherever possible. Trial by fire I guess... but without dying from it. :)

peterb
05-03-2012, 10:04 AM
"...it is very good for the character to engage in sports which put your life in danger from time to time. It breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities which probably cannot be got in any other way, and a habit of quick decisions." --Nevil Shute

Active outdoor sports can help develop a bias for action. If the consequence of indecision or inaction is going headfirst into a tree, you learn to act fast.

I'd like to think that would carry over into other settings, but I don't have any data on that.

JHC
05-03-2012, 11:54 AM
"...it is very good for the character to engage in sports which put your life in danger from time to time. It breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities which probably cannot be got in any other way, and a habit of quick decisions." --Nevil Shute

Active outdoor sports can help develop a bias for action. If the consequence of indecision or inaction is going headfirst into a tree, you learn to act fast.

I'd like to think that would carry over into other settings, but I don't have any data on that.

I've come to think that about the only mainstream scholastic sport that really builds character is wrestling.

TommyG
05-03-2012, 05:24 PM
Good points indeed. Personally, I have not had many issues when dealing with life's uglier/harder moments... at the time. After, it can be a different story depending on the event. Getting out there, and out of our comfort zone, is so important. I used to race motorcylces, had a few nasty get-offs at 120+ mph. Fell on the street too. But those were all learning experiences.

Good example though, your ass was on the line and you are still here discussing it with us. I don't know how that translates in other emergency situations, but at least you have some experience with that "Oh shit, this is gonna be bad" half second and lived to tell about it.

You have a realistic baseline for how your mind and body react to a life and death scenario. Is it universally applicable, no. But it is something. I think a lot of people assume the they will aquit themselves well in a really serious crisis without any reason or baseline for doing so. Having never been in combat or any conflict involving bullets flying, I stick with the assumption that I will likely soil my britches and cry for mommy at the onset of such an event. I hope not, but I also know that it is a very real possibility that I will have to deal with.

Off Topic - My motorcycle get offs were all in the woods but flying through the trees posterior first at 40 mph was, well, instructive.

ford.304
05-04-2012, 06:43 AM
One thing that hasn't been brought up that I think is important - in many cases people do not act immediately because the vast majority of possible triggers they have seen in their lives have been false alarms, and the social consequences of over-reacting are much more tangible and familiar to them than the consequences of inaction in a serious situation. Meditations on Violence has some excellent thoughts on this.

If you misjudge and go running for the fire extinguisher or tackle somebody who was just horsing around, you will be ostracized. And that isolation is still a real concern in our bubble-wrapped world, even if real trauma isn't for much of people's lives.

Heck, I bet it's something almost all of us have had to consider at one point or another - whether the social consequences of being the "paranoid gun nut" who carries everywhere, locks his doors, and doesn't want to go downtown to get drunk are worth the extra protection against a relatively unlikely (but catastrophic) event. Reacting immediately is the same thing. And when you are used to inaction being the right choice, it makes it so hard to identify that no, *this* time you need to do something.

Corlissimo
05-04-2012, 07:49 AM
Good example though, your ass was on the line and you are still here discussing it with us. I don't know how that translates in other emergency situations, but at least you have some experience with that "Oh shit, this is gonna be bad" half second and lived to tell about it.

You have a realistic baseline for how your mind and body react to a life and death scenario. Is it universally applicable, no. But it is something. I think a lot of people assume the they will aquit themselves well in a really serious crisis without any reason or baseline for doing so. Having never been in combat or any conflict involving bullets flying, I stick with the assumption that I will likely soil my britches and cry for mommy at the onset of such an event. I hope not, but I also know that it is a very real possibility that I will have to deal with.

Off Topic - My motorcycle get offs were all in the woods but flying through the trees posterior first at 40 mph was, well, instructive.

I agree. I have had to deal with death up close & personal but the most potent event was not due to violence or trauma, and it was my father when I was 17. I'll spare the details but, suffice it to say, it had a great impact afterwards. It was very surreal while it was happening even though I was very lucid & focused. Pretty sure the surreal part is a typical human reaction I suppose, not sure about the focus part.

There have been two other instances where I've come upon traumatic injury & death due to MVA. In each of these, I was fully functional, making calls for help, diverting traffic, etc. In the moment, things were serene almost. I could think very clearly for some reason, almost like I was watching a movie. I never thought about what that meant until later on when I was deciding to carry a weapon and was considering if that was right for me.

Mentally and philosophically, I've maintained that: Life isn't fair, bad sh*t happens every day; It can happen to me and to people I know. That's just the way it is. Deal with it and walk on. My belief is that the loss of my father at that time in my life drove that lesson home for me.

Now, confronted with knives or flying lead, I think I'd probably have the same reaction you spoke of. But, maybe I won't. Maybe dealing with the possible situations beforehand can help me not react that way. Hopefully, I'll never ever need to find out. But in the meantime, I'll prep the best I can.

Oh yeah... I never could bring myself to riding dirt bikes. They were always far too risky in my mind. Ironic, eh? :)