sandstorms and RMR's

[JodyH]

I was listening to the Ben Stoeger podcast "Practical Shooting After Dark, Episode 82 (https://www.benstoeger.com/practicalshootingafterdark/)" and he and one of his guests were discussing how their pistol mounted open emitter red dot sight (SRO I believe) was basically unusable due to dust/silt/sand on the emitter. the only way to prevent it was to cover or bag the dot topped pistol.
I found that particular failure/trouble vector especially interesting considering that in the spring and fall I live in dust storm central.
Comments? Experience?

I'm going to go back and listen again because I was driving at the time and only halfway paying attention to the discussion.
The sand issue discussion starts at around 9:50 .

[WobblyPossum]

I think it’s less of an issue for CCW folks and plain clothes LE than it is for uniformed LE and MIL. If you have a cover garment over the gun, it will do a pretty good job keeping the grime off the optic. While I was in Afghanistan, I often covered my M9 with my uniform blouse on base while most folks didn’t. We had some intense dust storms and I noticed that my pistol remained a lot cleaner than those of soldiers who kept them exposed to the elements on base. For uniformed LE like Border Patrol, for example, that’s a serious concern because a lot of those guys in the same areas you’re referencing. Same with our MIL folks. They’re mostly in very sandy areas nowadays. This is why closed emitter optics are the ideal and why many people believe the ACRO is the first duty grade pistol RDS.

[JodyH]

The only time I open carry is when I'm either backcountry hiking or off road riding my dual sport motorcycle... in the middle of the desert southwest.
I found it an interesting possible failure point that I personally had not given a lot of consideration.

[GJM]

An open emitter pistol red dot is like a big ash tray, when it comes to collecting man made and God’s debris. Cover it up with clothing, or for outside carry, a Safariland holster with a red dot hood. If you prefer a belt and suspenders, use an Acro.

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[1Rangemaster]

Solid advice from GJM. I am generally committed to the ACRO, although the RMR2 is the other viable choice, mainly due to battery life. Both are durable and reliable from everything I’ve experienced and read.
If committed to an RMR, follow the above advice. Otherwise, it’s an ACRO.
Your posts lead me to believe you are a dedicated practitioner, so if dust/debris an issue, I would go with an ACRO, and live with its demands(battery monitoring and manual adjustment).
Dust, debris, mud, etc. generally solved with a wipe of lens.

[TCinVA]

Friend of mine shooting a match in cold weather from an open rig drew his pistol on a one handed section of a stage, exhaled as part of his "shoot good, dumbass" mental routine and in so doing fogged both the glass of the optic and the lens of the emitter to the point that he had no more aiming reference.

Concealment will certainly help protect the gun against debris and environmental conditions...but the vulnerability of the open emitter is why I waited for the ACRO to jump into dots on pistols.

It's certainly has issues of its own, but becoming unusable due to dust, debris, (gravel, in my case) or because you literally breathed on it aren't among them.

That's why I think the ACRO will become more heavily adopted by agencies in the near future than the RMR.

[JodyH]

Summer 2020 I'll be taking a month or so long almost all off-road motorcycle adventure (KTM 990ADV) along the Continental Divide trail.
I'm still debating between a 19X and a 19X/508T.
This sand thing has me leaning towards irons because early summer on the high deserts of north central NM and Wyoming on a motorcycle is either going to be ridiculously dusty or ridiculously nasty mud.
Whether it's open carried, under a T-shirt or under a Gore-Tex jacket will be entirely weather dependent (and subject to exposure from the wind while riding).
I'll have to add this to my already huge list of things to evaluate and test over the next 5-6 months prior to setting off into the wild.

[YVK]

My open emitter optic (DPP) was rained out of commission due to shit on emitter within 2 hours of Ben's class in October. I thought this was because of optic's lens getting wet and dirty first, and part of it was that. However, it only returned to a fully functional state when I cleaned the emitter with Q tip and hair dryer later that night. I would only consider closed emitter optics for non-gaming open carry, and I remounted my T-1 on one of my Glocks when I got back.

[GJM]

Jody, on a trip like you describe, I would carry an extra slide for your Glock with iron sights.

Optics have been fogging and getting fouled for years, and while a closed emitter is better, you could still end up with an obscured sighting system if you breathed on the Acro wrong. Harder to clear with an open emitter for sure, but blowing on an open emitter has cleared snow when I fell into deep snow with a RMR. That is a reason you should be able to shoot your pistol with just index, and why I ordered a TLR-8G, to have a different color, alternate sighting system as an option. Tony at JM made me a George for an optics equipped Glock with a TLR-8.

I remember discussing rain on the RMR, one very rainy summer in Alaska five years or so ago, and being told I was basically crazy for suggesting it was a problem.

[JodyH]

Jody, on a trip like you describe, I would carry an extra slide for your Glock with iron sights.
A Torx bit, screws and a plate to cover the RMR cut would be more size efficient and serve the same purpose (I have BUIS on my RMR cut slide).
If I have an extra 1"x1"x7" space available in my spare parts bag it'll have a spare fuel pump or another couple of CO2 tire inflator cartridges instead of a pistol slide.

[GJM]

A Torx bit, screws and a plate to cover the RMR cut would be more size efficient and serve the same purpose (I have BUIS on my RMR cut slide).
If I have an extra 1"x1"x7" space available in my spare parts bag it'll have a spare fuel pump or another couple of CO2 tire inflator cartridges instead of a pistol slide.

Later today, I am shipping a MOS slide back to Glock to remove the little darn stripped screw!

[shane45]

Damn Jody, the mental image I have of your trip I think it would be an iron sighted whatever and an AR pistol in the pack!

[OlongJohnson]

I remember discussing rain on the RMR, one very rainy summer in Alaska five years or so ago, and being told I was basically crazy for suggesting it was a problem.

I remember you posting about that. That and my astigmatism have kept me from worrying too much about dots.

[JodyH]

Damn Jody, the mental image I have of your trip I think it would be an iron sighted whatever and an AR pistol in the pack!
The only "interesting areas" are in New Mexico close to the US/MX border and around I40/Grants to the CO state line. Then Montana bears.

[oregon45]

The ability to quickly remove the optic—without having to keep track of multiple tiny screws—is another reason, among many, that convinced me to buy a pair of Aimpoint Acro’s. Sometimes pulling the optic is the best option if weather conditions get too severe. Although generally, by that time, I’ve retreated inside :D

[JodyH]

Later today, I am shipping a MOS slide back to Glock to remove the little darn stripped screw!
A secret for removing small critical screws without stripping or breaking.
Use a small plastic/brass hammer like the Wheeler gunsmith mallet to continuously lightly tap down on the handle of the driver you're using to unscrew the screws.
I put my Torx bit into a screwdriver style driver handle.
Apply and hold some light pressure (just a light grip and twist is all that's needed) in the "lefty loosey" direction and then start lightly tapping down on the end of the driver with my plastic faced baby hammer.
The screws almost always immediately start backing out with hardly any twisting effort (if they were close to properly torqued in the first place).
It's the manual version of an impact driver.

[GJM]

A secret for removing small critical screws without stripping or breaking.
Use a small plastic/brass hammer like the Wheeler gunsmith mallet to continuously lightly tap down on the handle of the driver you're using to unscrew the screws.
I put my Torx bit into a screwdriver style driver handle.
Apply and hold some light pressure (just a light grip and twist is all that's needed) in the "lefty loosey" direction and then start lightly tapping down on the end of the driver with my plastic faced baby hammer.
The screws almost always immediately start backing out with hardly any twisting effort (if they were close to properly torqued in the first place).
It's the manual version of an impact driver.

Yep, that didn’t work. And I have the $100 set, “designed for stuck screws.”

[JodyH]

Yep, that didn’t work. And I have the $100 set, “designed for stuck screws.”
Your luck is about as bad as mine.
I do still have a useless T1 with a mount screw broken off flush with the body though, so I have that going for me.

[UNK]

What about one of those RMR covers attached to a fixed point like belt or holster with an elastic cord.
https://www.amazon.com/Strike-Industries-Removeable-Transparent-Jellyfish/dp/B00DG9NFVI

[Norville]

Yep, that didn’t work. And I have the $100 set, “designed for stuck screws.”

I've got a machinist on speed dial who handles mine for $35 a screw. Plus a bottle of whiskey every 3rd screw or so.

[TCB]

All sighting systems are vulnerable to environmental issues. I once had to power wash my sidearm back at the Station after a particularly crappy night in the brush. The rear sight of my P2000 was completely occluded with mud... One of the experiences that led me to the ACRO as my first PMO. It has its vulnerabilities as well but seems like it may mitigate them a bit better than an RMR in certain conditions?

[Alpha Sierra]

Friend of mine shooting a match in cold weather from an open rig drew his pistol on a one handed section of a stage, exhaled as part of his "shoot good, dumbass" mental routine and in so doing fogged both the glass of the optic and the lens of the emitter to the point that he had no more aiming reference.

The ACRO's occular lens would have fogged up just as bad in the same circumstance, rendering it too useless until the condensation either evaporates or is wiped off.

[entropy]

So what’s the consensus on protecting the sight from the elements when a hooded holster is not an option? All new territory for me, and honestly one that I obviously didn’t think thru very well. Mine came with a rubber hood, and short of using a tether, not coming up with many solutions. Maybe there isn’t one presently...

[Eric_L]

The only "interesting areas" are in New Mexico close to the US/MX border and around I40/Grants to the CO state line. Then Montana bears.


What is it about the Grants area? When I go west it is i40 generally. Thank you. PM is fine.

[LittleLebowski]

I've got a machinist on speed dial who handles mine for $35 a screw. Plus a bottle of whiskey every 3rd screw or so.

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[JodyH]

What is it about the Grants area? When I go west it is i40 generally. Thank you. PM is fine.
I40 is just fine, just the normal transient Interstate riff-raff and trucker serial killers like everywhere else in the country.

Anywhere off the beaten path (like I'll be doing) around the reservations can get sketchy.
There's a lot of Navajo "off-reservation trust" land checkerboarded north of Grants up to Cuba.
Some tribe members tend to claim ownership of BLM land (what I'll be traversing) just because it's near tribal lands.
A lot of those same tribe members really, really dislike non-tribe members and are almost always drunk at a minimum.

[paherne]

How about this: either tape up, or take the sights off of one of your Glocks and shoot it by superimposing the back of the slide on a TQ-19 or B-27 target all the way out to 25 yards. Jim Cirillo mentioned this technique of looking at the back of the gun and recognizing what it looked like when you had the pistol on target. Louis Awerbuck also mentioned this to me in a class. I was schwacking dudes with Simunitions today with a G17T with a mashed down plastic front sight and a rear that was so far left that if I used the sights I would have been several feet off the target. It worked at 20' plus, but I wasn't taking hostage shots, just ruining,"There I was," stories and punishing those who used poor tactics. Run the optic if you want, carry a spare toothbrush and some lens wipes, if it gets occluded, rock on and finish the problem.