Novelty in a practical world.

[MandoWookie]

The announcement of Rugers new 5.7 pistol seems to have set the gun world on fire with one question: Why???

Why now? Why this? What use is this to anyone? Of course that has also been my reaction to the sudden reincarnation of the 10mm Auto, on the heels of the demise of its progeny the .40 S&W. Or the sudden revival of the revolver as a market segment that has been in decline since the 80s, not only with the new offerings from the legacy manufacturers, but the entry of wholly new designs from brands never associated with revolvers. Or the combo of these two spectres of the Age of Cooper with the abominations of 10mm revolvers now offered. The rapidly crowding market of the high cap "tacti-cool" rimfires pioneered (or retreaded) by Kel-tec with the PMR30, followed by the CP33, and joined by TX22, G44 , P17 and likely more to come at least have the logic of being cheap fun.

But new designs in esoteric calibers from Ruger? That staid company of the workingman's gun? The company that brings you over lawyered but otherwise unremarkable iterations of of what is guaranteed to sell because two or three other company's proved it would first, and serving the lower to middle end of an established market with brand reputation and availability not usually associated with innovative new products.

It's pretty much common knowledge that the current firearms market is oversaturated, and everyone also acknowledges that the product offerings are largely similar to each other, being that almost every manufacturer offers some flavor of : single stack 9mm, double stack 9mm, AR15, PCC, precision bolt gun. Any evolutionary improvement in one brand quickly gets copy pasted by all the competitors, and everything in the case at the local gun dealer looks like a kaleidoscope color wheel of interchangeable plastic practicality. Pick one at random, it will be much of a sameness to one next to it, in looks as well as performance most likely. This is overall a good thing. A plethora of solid options means if one is dissatisfied with some aspect of a particular example, there likely an iteration available that assuaged that percieved flaw.

Or you could just by a G19 and shoot it, and not worry about that crap.

Thats the logical thing. And it is a testament to this forum that that advice seems to have actually permeated the gun culture at large, reinforced by the FBI basically coming to the same conclusion, that everyone acknowledges that it's a good idea. Get a Glock(or approximate facsimile) , get ammo, go shoot. Rinse repeat.

Is it that the normally risk averse companies are predicting a coming collapse in the market? And preparing for the possibility that nothing but the established players, with secured LE or military contracts will have products that continue to be profitable, and all those without that safety net will see their marginal market share collapse? So they set sails for uncharted waters in the hope they can stake out successful colonies in otherwise niche markets that might hold them through the storm?

Wow this turned into longer post than I intended.

[Lester Polfus]

Maybe.

[RevolverRob]

Novelty and innovation are important for growth and survival. So, for that matter, is failure. I sort of see the Ruger 57 as an engineering exercise that someone thought, “Fuck it, it’s cheap enough to build, let’s do it.” And they did.

If you want to see how stagnation ruins a company, Colt has only gone bankrupt twice since 1992 on the back of lack of innovation/diversification.

I do believe there is such a thing as too many variants/too large a catalog. And honestly, I think Ruger may soon be forced to cut their lines down in the name of efficiency and profits. BUT, Ruger has always done well discontinuing models that don’t sell quickly, so maybe not.

Anyways - I don’t think I’d read much into novelty. Our world is anything but practical and I don’t just mean firearms. We have smart phones, smart TVs, smart watches, smart cars, and obesity. We have fridges that can order groceries, but people who refuse to live within their financial means. If anything, to me, the Ruger 57 appeals to the very people who buy smart watches and then wireless charging stands, because their watches aren’t charged up in the morning.

[Nightvisionary]

I have gun safes full of novelty and gun safes full of practicality. Practicality isn't the end all be all in guns, cars, motorcycles, clothing, or pretty much anything else we purchase. There is always plenty of room for both and overlaps in between.

[Joe in PNG]

"Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot 9 days old", even if nutritious, does tend to get old.

[HCM]

Gun companies are untimately in business to make money, guns are just the means to that end.

[zpelletier]

Well if Glock really was the most practical and reliable option then they would make reliable 10 round magazines. However, I don’t think they ever will. I’m hopeful that one day people will recognize that guns aren’t the problem and overturn unconstitutional laws. But until that day comes I don’t see Glock as an option for me.

[jeep45238]

Gun companies are untimately in business to make money, guns are just the means to that end.

This. I'm in business to make money. A lot of my competitors in the area are in the business to cut down trees. It brings a dramatically different vantage point and SOP to the table.

[Cory]

Recently, a trainer made a social media post about how he viewed firearms as tools only, and didn't even like going to the range for enjoyment. There was some backlash and apparently a few other industry people showed their ass (on social media, no way.) But I didnt catch that part.

Point is there is a dichotomy of Tool vs Enjoyment. Skill vs Fun.

While many here happen to enjoy firearms as a hobby, it tends to be in addition to viewing them as a tool. That's probably why the grounded recommendation of "G19 and ammo" is so prevelent here.

-Cory

[Alpha Sierra]

But new designs in esoteric calibers from Ruger? That staid company of the workingman's gun? The company that brings you over lawyered but otherwise unremarkable iterations of of what is guaranteed to sell because two or three other company's proved it would first, and serving the lower to middle end of an established market with brand reputation and availability not usually associated with innovative new products.

That's the Ruger from the 90s and early 2000s

The Ruger of today came up with innovative products such as this:
https://1s18w12tqveh1xfywp1ulx42-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Ruger-Precision-Rifle-First.jpg

Innovate or die

[mtnbkr]

Recently, a trainer made a social media post about how he viewed firearms as tools only, and didn't even like going to the range for enjoyment. There was some backlash and apparently a few other industry people showed their ass (on social media, no way.) But I didnt catch that part.
Man, I just don't get that viewpoint. At least one should be able to take pleasure in the application and development of hand/eye coordination and skill. I suppose people who enjoy darts don't geek out over the darts themselves, but still enjoy the activity. I feel like there's a push recently to deny liking guns and shooting and to view them as a necessary evil like a fire extinguisher.


While many here happen to enjoy firearms as a hobby, it tends to be in addition to viewing them as a tool. That's probably why the grounded recommendation of "G19 and ammo" is so prevelent here.

-Cory

As I said above, some folks doth protest too much when the subject of firearms as a hobby and a relaxing pastime comes up. It's as if they want to be seen as zen masters of violence without being seen as liking the tool itself.

I ALWAYS talk up the fun aspects of the hobby. It's like golf, darts, or archery. It's a hand/eye coordination challenge, it forces you to focus, master various movements and your own internal biologicals. I get that some folks only want the fire extinguishers, but if they are just generally gun-curious, I focus on the FUN.

And to bring it back around to the OP, that means having a variety to choose from. If the novelty of the 5.7 brings a new shooter into the world, we're better for it.

Chris

[jeep45238]

Recently, a trainer made a social media post about how he viewed firearms as tools only, and didn't even like going to the range for enjoyment. There was some backlash and apparently a few other industry people showed their ass (on social media, no way.) But I didnt catch that part.

Point is there is a dichotomy of Tool vs Enjoyment. Skill vs Fun.

While many here happen to enjoy firearms as a hobby, it tends to be in addition to viewing them as a tool. That's probably why the grounded recommendation of "G19 and ammo" is so prevelent here.

-Cory

I know the one you're referring to - the takeaway I got from him was he's lived a life with too much hazard to his person and sees a lot of unsafe practices on the range with Joe Blow by his standards, in addition to the whole tool, not hobby, viewpoint. That's fine, no skin off my back, and I find myself less and less willing to go to public ranges anymore with said Joe Blow's. The exceptions being there's active RSO's present, which is harder and harder to find. My understanding is that he also got into the training world to share his unique context, make an impact, and disappear to live a life outside of the community instead of make a living at it.

I do enjoy the hobby side of it as well, but I understand risk mitigation and not wanting to go into that environment.

[Tokarev]

it’s cheap enough to build, let’s do it.” And they did.


Gun companies are untimately in business to make money, guns are just the means to that end.

These are the two reasons right here. The 5.7 is a risk but it is probably a sound one since there's zero competition in the market. Will it pay off? In the short term I think it will. As I said in my R57 thread; the gun will sell well for about six months. Once all the 5.7 fanbois have one that'll be the end of it. Not a jab at Ruger just truth. I imagine the exact same thing happened with the GP100 in .44 Special.

Something else to think about. Internet rumor has it that one of FN's main sales guys now works for Ruger. If that's true he probably brought some inside information about 5.7x28 ammo and firearms sales and convinced management that there's an untapping market.

[gato naranja]

What's an outfit to do after the public has a collective hangover from 8 years of panic buying defensive arms and ammo? The Ruger 5.7 pistol might be one answer.

Novelty doesn't really do anything for me, so I'd prefer seeing incremental running improvements (like Beretta giving the PX4 some modern grip texturing), reissues of old classics (like a no-lock S&W 640), or QC upped in lieu of "innovation" (like a new Ruger Blackhawk that doesn't have to be "fixed" by the factory twice before it works). In this day and age, maybe what I am asking for IS "novelty."

g n

[Alpha Sierra]

I know the one you're referring to - the takeaway I got from him was he's lived a life with too much hazard to his person and sees a lot of unsafe practices on the range with Joe Blow by his standards

It's not all that hard to find places to shoot for fun without going to a public range full of retards.

[Hambo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7TznTkrlY

[jeep45238]

It's not all that hard to find places to shoot for fun without going to a public range full of retards.

Depends - most public ranges around me that folks know about cater to the lowest common denominator, and after watching the 'rso' finger-bang a rental gun pointed at someone behind the firing line I corrected them and walked out. Another has no RSO or anybody monitoring the firing line with muzzles going all over. I absolutely do go to range #2 for IDPA matches, there's people that are there to learn/have fun, get better, whole crowd looking out for each other and encouraging growth, etc - but not likely to go there during general hours.

I also have never shot/trained with the guy mentioned, just read some stuff and listened to some interviews. I don't know his standards, but I do understand his context a bit better and reasoning for it, even if it does seem extreme to me.

Again, it's no skin off my back. I also tend to trust folks until I have a reason not to, I'd imagine he's the opposite in that regard.

[Tokarev]

Novelty doesn't really do anything for me, so I'd prefer seeing incremental running improvements (like Beretta giving the PX4 some modern grip texturing), reissues of old classics (like a no-lock S&W 640), or QC upped in lieu of "innovation" (like a new Ruger Blackhawk that doesn't have to be "fixed" by the factory twice before it works.

Didn't S&W try a classic line a few years back? That probably sold a few guns to a few old guys but that was it.

Anyway, none of the big companies seem to have a monopoly on lousy quality control. I think they know most guns sold will get little actual use. Cheaper and easier to fix the few guns that actually get used and have problems rather than making sure each and every gun is 100% right off the line.

But is this really anything new? How many Colt Government Models or Smith 19s had to go straight from the box to a gunsmith? Some of that was for the novelty of having a custom tuned gun. Some of it wasn't.




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[Dave T]

The Ruger 5.7 and the Glock 44 were kind of refreshing. I don't want either one but they're something new that isn't a 9mm. (smile)

Dave

[Tokarev]

The Ruger 5.7 and the Glock 44 were kind of refreshing. I don't want either one but they're something new that isn't a 9mm. (smile)

DaveI feel the same about the LCP 22. Interesting little gun although not practical in terms we'd normally use.



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[M2CattleCo]

Looks to me like they're desperate to sell something, anything.

[Tokarev]

Looks to me like they're desperate to sell something, anything.Well, that's one way to put it...

My beef with the R57 is more from an ergonomic standpoint and some features I think should have been designed into the gun rather than the cartridge.

If you're going to do it at least do it right. I understand there's a price point to be met but none of the things I think should have been done would have changed price in a significant way.

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[ccmdfd]

I tell you i just had an eye opening experience.

During the holidays one of my best friends came over to help me work on my tractor. He brought his early-teenage son with him, and asked if he could shoot while we worked.
I recently moved out into the country (hence the tractor) after living inside city limits for 25+ years where shooting is a no-no.

After we were done with the tractor, we went to check on the son who was shooting Coke cans and Shoot -n-see targets with his Grandfather's (or maybe great grandfather) old DA .22 revolver and a 10-22. I decided to give it a try myself.

For the past 25 or more years my pistol shooting has been exclusively with 9mm defensive style pistols of various makes and models. I'd go to the range with a specific set of drills plans focusing on accuracy, speed, or a combination. Always with a plan and always concentrating on improving something.

Man, shooting Coke cans was so much fun. As my Dad would say; "I can't remember when i had so much fun and still had my clothes on!"
Quite refreshing just going and having fun and not concentrating so much. Heck, I even found that my groups with that old DA revolver were better than some of my wonder 9 groups of late.


I can't say that i have a specific want or need for a 57 pistol of any flavor. But I'm all for Ruger bringing one out if others find it as fun to shoot as i recently rediscovered with .22's. If it succeeds, awesome, if it fails, then not awesome but at least they tried and now know/learned something.

Now i need to go buy a .22 pistol and/or rifle.

cc

[GAP]

Firearm companies don’t like, “us.” Finding something that works and buying 2-3 of them is terrible for companies. They want the customers who buy a gun a month and stick it in the safe.

The other comment that stuck out to me was regarding training vs. fun. Fun to me is observable performance gains. I find little excitement over purchasing something new. This goes back to the philosophy of human happiness and how it cannot be achieved through unlimited desire of possessions.

Ammo companies on the other hand... loooove us.

[Poconnor]

I am glad that Ruger has expanded their offerings. Most of the new guns I have bought the last few years have been Ruger. Ok I did get two berettas from Langdon and two blue label glocks but all of the S&Ws have been used. In the past Ruger would announce a new model but it was vapor forever. I remember when S&W was doing the gun of the month. I don’t think having a lot of models is bad per se; as long as you understand that they are all not available at the same time. The factory does not have a warehouse of ready guns to ship. They make a run and ship them out and move on to the next model. If they sell they make more. If they announce a model and nobody orders them they don’t make that model. Honestly I don’t know how so many gun manufacturers stay in business. This is why I posted earlier about a group buy - Kickstarter type of gun ordering. Imagine gun models that were spec’d by gun users not marketing people. Have an online sign up / commitment and produce them when the magic number is hit. Some of my favorite pistols were spec’d by somebody outside the factory. My 10-8 Springfield 1911s , Wiley Clapp Colts and Rugers are perfect examples. I never would have bought a beretta if it wasn’t for the improvements Ernest Langdon convinced the factory to do. Now I wish Wiley Clapp would convince S&W to make a no lock 642 with real dovetail sights and a no lock 3” 64 with dovetail sights ( not the ugly version of Novak’s they put on the 640 Pro) I really like the D&L and C&S rear sight. S&W came close with the night guard series. But without the XS front sight and expensive alloys. A pinned red ramp, all stainless and SS and Aluminum would be awesome

[rob_s]

After awhile, you start to realize that a lot of people's "practical" is just novelty anyway. And that includes people that you might think would "know better", to include self-defense zealots, preppers, cops, SWAT guys, military, and even "tier one" military.

[spence]

I tell you i just had an eye opening experience.

During the holidays one of my best friends came over to help me work on my tractor. He brought his early-teenage son with him, and asked if he could shoot while we worked.
I recently moved out into the country (hence the tractor) after living inside city limits for 25+ years where shooting is a no-no.

After we were done with the tractor, we went to check on the son who was shooting Coke cans and Shoot -n-see targets with his Grandfather's (or maybe great grandfather) old DA .22 revolver and a 10-22. I decided to give it a try myself.

For the past 25 or more years my pistol shooting has been exclusively with 9mm defensive style pistols of various makes and models. I'd go to the range with a specific set of drills plans focusing on accuracy, speed, or a combination. Always with a plan and always concentrating on improving something.

Man, shooting Coke cans was so much fun. As my Dad would say; "I can't remember when i had so much fun and still had my clothes on!"
Quite refreshing just going and having fun and not concentrating so much. Heck, I even found that my groups with that old DA revolver were better than some of my wonder 9 groups of late.


I can't say that i have a specific want or need for a 57 pistol of any flavor. But I'm all for Ruger bringing one out if others find it as fun to shoot as i recently rediscovered with .22's. If it succeeds, awesome, if it fails, then not awesome but at least they tried and now know/learned something.

Now i need to go buy a .22 pistol and/or rifle.

cc

This right here. I shoot a pretty fair amount, and generally have either a set of drills planned, or plan a set of drills when I get to the range, which is often at my neighbor's. One of my kids just turned 8, the other turns 7 next month, and when they go shoot, we'll take soup cans and other stuff to plink. It's not entirely uncommon for me to throw in a .22 to take along. It's just plain old fun to shoot cans or step out in the field beyond and shoot dirt clods from time to time.

I have no idea what Ruger's reasoning is, nor do I care too much, however I could speculate that it's an instance of it's just "something different". Sometimes something different does the trick. For that matter, if I could come up with a use for a 5.7, I would almost be tempted to buy one just because.

[JodyH]

"Practical"
LOL
:cool:

46615

[GardoneVT]

Old news for some, but there’s a big difference between a gun user and a gun owner.They are not the same thing, and the second outweighs the first by far.

Most folks buy guns and treat them like spare batteries. Something Bad happens , they buy a gun, take an intro class and then it’s off to the tactical kitchen drawer. The thought of carrying concealed for these folks is like Apollo 11, as in a foreign historical ritual reserved for government employees.

Others take it a step further and jump down the gun collecting rabbit hole. These people pay Sig Sauers light bill. Going to the range is merely a social validation exercise, not an occasion to build measurable skill. This is the buyer group most likely to have A) a trailer full of guns and B) only shot 25% of them at any one time.

Sitting down and deciding to improve ones shooting performance is the top of the skill pyramid. It’s not a common perspective at all, and gun companies have bigger buyer groups to chase. If ones exclusive concern is skill, a used Glock +ammo+ class is all you need. Not much profit in that demographic. So gun companies will chase the first two customers, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

[rob_s]

Old news for some, but there’s a big difference between a gun user and a gun owner.

when I had my training company our motto was "be the 1%" with the idea that only 10% of gun owners actually shoot, but that only 10% of those shoot with a purpose (statistics completely made up). Our target group was the 0.5 level class to prep shooters for their first L01/101/intro course with a name instructor.

[gato naranja]

Didn't S&W try a classic line a few years back? That probably sold a few guns to a few old guys but that was it.

That is true, and I probably should have worded it differently... "older models that are still viable working guns but out of production and hard to find" or some such thing. The Germans probably have a 52 character word that would fill the bill, but I haven't hit upon the right English term.

g n

[zpelletier]

Recently, a trainer made a social media post about how he viewed firearms as tools only, and didn't even like going to the range for enjoyment. There was some backlash and apparently a few other industry people showed their ass (on social media, no way.) But I didnt catch that part.

Point is there is a dichotomy of Tool vs Enjoyment. Skill vs Fun.

While many here happen to enjoy firearms as a hobby, it tends to be in addition to viewing them as a tool. That's probably why the grounded recommendation of "G19 and ammo" is so prevelent here.

-Cory

Who was that? I’m now super curious to see what was actually said.

I don’t understand someone running a business based on training people how to use something that you don’t even enjoy. Why would you spend that much of your life doing something you hate?

[Inspector71]

Assuming that my house does not burn down and no gun thefts, my gun buying days ended about four years ago when I retired. Got my one and only plastic gun (G17), .22 handguns, .22 rifles, shotgun, PPC guns, snubbies. As a retirement gift, I splurged and purchased a .357 Henry rifle. Got reloading dies to cover the centerfire stuff. Took a Dave Ramsey financial course about five years ago, so he really, really, makes you think twice about buying anything. Do I really need this item ? Can I get by with something else ? The gun manufacturers must really hate me. LOL.

[Baldanders]

3-D printing is now so ubiquitous even the library in my rural county has a bunch that can be accessed online. Youngin's are being exposed to manufacturing processes in their pre-teen years. Objects that have been impossible to make (e.g. one-piece parts with voids inside) are now possible.

Rapid prototyping and like is only going to push the "novelty" trend. The g44 and the 57 are harbingers of the future.

And it is possible the standard Glock may not be last word in handguns. Who knows, maybe the analog to JMB for the 21st century is playing around with computer files right now, and wondering if she can make her design which is even simpler than Gaston's creation with some of the new materials recently created.

But you probably have to go through quite a few Dardicks to get to the next Glock. Good thing that is a process that will only get cheaper.

Capitalism can be awesome.

(Doesn't mean those of us with a perfectly serviceable set of tools need to fund these efforts. 😉 )

[Darth_Uno]

Who was that? I’m now super curious to see what was actually said.

I don’t understand someone running a business based on training people how to use something that you don’t even enjoy. Why would you spend that much of your life doing something you hate?

First I've heard of it, so I couldn't say who it is. At the same time, even if you don't love something you're good at, there's still nothing wrong with making a career out of it. I build homes, and while I do like my job more often than not (the construction part anyway), I don't go home and rip more plywood just for fun.

[zpelletier]

First I've heard of it, so I couldn't say who it is. At the same time, even if you don't love something you're good at, there's still nothing wrong with making a career out of it. I build homes, and while I do like my job more often than not (the construction part anyway), I don't go home and rip more plywood just for fun.

I understand what you’re saying. I’m an electrician, I don’t go home and pull wires and splice outlets for fun, but if I went through the effort of creating social media accounts and putting my business on display in that way, it seems like poor advertising to make statements that lead people to think you don’t enjoy your job.

[JodyH]

I understand what you’re saying. I’m an electrician, I don’t go home and pull wires and splice outlets for fun, but if I went through the effort of creating social media accounts and putting my business on display in that way, it seems like poor advertising to make statements that lead people to think you don’t enjoy your job.
Listen to a few long form podcasts and you'll change your perspective on a lot of "big name" instructors.
It's harder to disguise who you really are over the course of an unscripted hour or two than it is in 5 minute edited YouTube videos or a Instagram "love me" account.

I will say that one person I had a positive perception of that was reinforced in long form was Bolke on P&S.
I like his contributions on here and I liked what I heard from him on the podcasts as well.

[zpelletier]

Listen to a few long form podcasts and you'll change your perspective on a lot of "big name" instructors.
It's harder to disguise who you really are over the course of an unscripted hour or two than it is in 5 minute edited YouTube videos or a Instagram "love me" account.

I will say that one person I had a positive perception of that was reinforced in long form was Bolke on P&S.
I like his contributions on here and I liked what I heard from him on the podcasts as well.

Honestly, I don’t think I pay attention enough to know many “big name” instructors. Most of the ones I’ve heard of have also said or done things that bring up questions about their motivation. Most people on Instagram are just trying to look cool. I’m not even sure how you would separate good instructors from bad without a pretty serious amount of research. I think the only ones I know of who seem on the up and up are the guys at FieldCraft, but I could be wrong about them too.

[OlongJohnson]

Wish someone would build an actual Compact and Lightweight, Scout-like, .308 Bolt Gun (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38571-Compact-and-Lightweight-Scout-like-308-Bolt-Gun). That would clearly be novel.

[Darth_Uno]

Honestly, I don’t think I pay attention enough to know many “big name” instructors. Most of the ones I’ve heard of have also said or done things that bring up questions about their motivation. Most people on Instagram are just trying to look cool. I’m not even sure how you would separate good instructors from bad without a pretty serious amount of research. I think the only ones I know of who seem on the up and up are the guys at FieldCraft, but I could be wrong about them too.

If they post a class here on PF they're probably pretty good. I haven't heard otherwise.

Even so, while I would love to shoot all day every day and get paid handsomely for it, I suspect it'd still lose some appeal after a while if it was my actual day job.

[Cory]

Who was that? I’m now super curious to see what was actually said.

I don’t understand someone running a business based on training people how to use something that you don’t even enjoy. Why would you spend that much of your life doing something you hate?

The cesspool of social media doesn't need to infect PF. Drama can stay there if it's all the same, and I didnt read everything said. I mostly brought that up to help explain the tool vs hobby viewpoint that I think often leads PF toward the G19 recommendation.

-Cory

[zpelletier]

The cesspool of social media doesn't need to infect PF. Drama can stay there if it's all the same, and I didnt read everything said. I mostly brought that up to help explain the tool vs hobby viewpoint that I think often leads PF toward the G19 recommendation.

-Cory

Fair enough, I was just curious and you made a good point.

[awp_101]

Even so, while I would love to shoot all day every day and get paid handsomely for it, I suspect it'd still lose some appeal after a while if it was my actual day job.
Usually the quickest way to ruin a hobby you're decent at is to start getting paid to do it.

[Tokarev]

Usually the quickest way to ruin a hobby you're decent at is to start getting paid to do it.Happened to me when I became a prostitute....

Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

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[Hambo]

Even so, while I would love to shoot all day every day and get paid handsomely for it, I suspect it'd still lose some appeal after a while if it was my actual day job.

It wouldn't be the shooting that loses its appeal. Dealing with people (payment, cancellations, happiness), admin issues, constant concerns about safety, and throw in all the social media/internet experts ripping you; that is what would make it tough.

[Alpha Sierra]

Wish someone would build an actual Compact and Lightweight, Scout-like, .308 Bolt Gun (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38571-Compact-and-Lightweight-Scout-like-308-Bolt-Gun). That would clearly be novel.

If you ignore Cooper's outdated criteria for what makes a scout rifle (things like iron sights, a scope mounted in front of the receiver), there are plenty of choices right out of the box or that can be made to be with little aftermarket support.

[rob_s]

If you ignore Cooper's outdated criteria for what makes a scout rifle (things like iron sights, a scope mounted in front of the receiver), there are plenty of choices right out of the box or that can be made to be with little aftermarket support.

Links? There wouldn’t be an entire thread (threads?) about this if the industry was producing what many of us are looking for.

About the only part of Cooper’s criteria that I find outdated are the forward mounted scope and ability to take stripper clips. The only thing I’d add to his list that I’m aware of would be a factory threaded barrel. Some other things I don’t know that Cooper specifically said but that I find desirable are an open-top action for ease of single loading/topping up and iron sights that are immediately available upon removable of the optic, not requiring one to remove the irons to mount the optic.

[rob_s]

It wouldn't be the shooting that loses its appeal. Dealing with people (payment, cancellations, happiness), admin issues, constant concerns about safety, and throw in all the social media/internet experts ripping you; that is what would make it tough.

I bet that even the shooting would start to lose its appeal. Particularly once you start to associate it with all those other things.

Hell, shooting lost it’s appeal for me at one point simply due to being too heavily involved in running of matches and the gun-publication industry.

[Tokarev]

Links? There wouldn’t be an entire thread (threads?) about this if the industry was producing what many of us are looking for.

About the only part of Cooper’s criteria that I find outdated are the forward mounted scope and ability to take stripper clips. The only thing I’d add to his list that I’m aware of would be a factory threaded barrel. Some other things I don’t know that Cooper specifically said but that I find desirable are an open-top action for ease of single loading/topping up and iron sights that are immediately available upon removable of the optic, not requiring one to remove the irons to mount the optic.

Scout Rifles are, in my opinion, pretty similar to micro 45 pistols. Everyone says they're cool and everyone says they want one but that never seems to translate into success.

Anyway, the Ruger and Savage Scouts are the two factory options that come to mind although neither is truly Cooper's vision.

[JodyH]

You could always do what I do for a scout rifle... Steyr Scout with a forward mounted Aimpoint Micro T2.
Works pretty damn well.
I might toss a 1-6 or 1-8 LPV on it some day, but the Aimpoint works well enough on coyotes out to 1/4 mile (I know the exact yardage of the last one I shot because we were on opposite ends of a Valley irrigation system).

[JodyH]

It wouldn't be the shooting that loses its appeal. Dealing with people (payment, cancellations, happiness), admin issues, constant concerns about safety, and throw in all the social media/internet experts ripping you; that is what would make it tough.
So it's exactly like running any other small business.

[Tokarev]

You could always do what I do for a scout rifle... Steyr Scout with a forward mounted Aimpoint Micro T2.
Works pretty damn well.
I might toss a 1-6 or 1-8 LPV on it some day, but the Aimpoint works well enough on coyotes out to 1/4 mile (I know the exact yardage of the last one I shot because we were on opposite ends of a Valley irrigation system).I ran red dots on my Ruger and M1A Scouts for awhile. Helps keep weight down. Downside is the lack of magnification sort of takes away from the 308's ability to engage targets at 5-600 yards. Might as well use a 223 in that case....

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[JodyH]

I ran red dots on my Ruger and M1A Scouts for awhile. Helps keep weight down. Downside is the lack of magnification sort of takes away from the 308's ability to engage targets at 5-600 yards. Might as well use a 223 in that case....

There's no .223 equivalent to a Hornady 165gr. GMX when it comes to killing anything in North America.

[Hambo]

So it's exactly like running any other small business.

Yep, and just as much fun.

[JodyH]

Yep, and just as much fun.
I've done both.
CCW instructor for 13 or 14 years and small business owner for almost 5 years now.

Gotta focus on the good customers and learn that it's OK to "fire" the bad customers.

[Tokarev]

There's no .223 equivalent to a Hornady 165gr. GMX when it comes to killing anything in North America.Nope. But I still say some magnification is needed to fully make use of 308's (and Scout's) capabilities.

Gets back to the idea of the Scout in general. Cool because it is Cooper's baby but really not viable nowadays. A good AR (in 6.5 or 308 especially) will do what a Scout will do.

I know some say the Scout doesn't look scary. I say anyone anti-gun will hate the rifle regardless.

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[rob_s]

I know some say the Scout doesn't look scary. I say anyone anti-gun will hate the rifle regardless.

some are just looking for a reason to justify it.

others are just looking for a reason to dismiss it.

I'm not sure why either camp cares so much what the other thinks.

[Tokarev]

some are just looking for a reason to justify it.

others are just looking for a reason to dismiss it.

I'm not sure why either camp cares so much what the other thinks.Especially when we're talking practical vs novelty. As has been already said, "One man's trash is another man's treasure. "

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[HCM]

I ran red dots on my Ruger and M1A Scouts for awhile. Helps keep weight down. Downside is the lack of magnification sort of takes away from the 308's ability to engage targets at 5-600 yards. Might as well use a 223 in that case....

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Out of curiosity was your scout wood laminate or synthetic stocked ? I ask because IME the synthetic stock is lighter and greatly improves the handling. They literally feel like two different guns.

[Tokarev]

Out of curiosity was your scout wood laminate or synthetic stocked ? I ask because IME the synthetic stock is lighter and greatly improves the handling. They literally feel like two different guns.Laminate. I don't think the synthetic was available when I bought mine in 2010 or whatever it was.

It is kind of a nice rifle and I "get" what Cooper was going for. But I also think something like the DPMS G2 Recon will do the same stuff and be semi-auto.



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[HCM]

Laminate. I don't think the synthetic was available when I bought mine in 2010 or whatever it was.

It is kind of a nice rifle and I "get" what Cooper was going for. But I also think something like the DPMS G2 Recon will do the same stuff and be semi-auto.



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I agree about the G2 (assuming reliability) but They sell the synthetic separately. If you still have the scout it’s worth every penny.

[Tokarev]

If you still have the scout it’s worth every penny.

I'll have to look into that.

If I do anything else with the gun it would probably include ditching my scout/eir scope and putting something like a Vortex 1-6 on it. That's another drawback to the Scout concept. Not as many good options for scopes if the front rail is used.

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[RevolverRob]

Didn't S&W try a classic line a few years back? That probably sold a few guns to a few old guys but that was it.

Seems to be a few more than a few - Since it still exists - https://www.smith-wesson.com/revolvers - Filter at the top "Series" and you'll find Classics right down on the list.


Looks to me like they're desperate to sell something, anything.

That presupposes that they need to sell the guns. I don't get the impression that Ruger is hurting financially by any stretch. They make the most popular concealed carry gun on the planet (since most of the planet doesn't CC) in the form of the LCP/LCP2 and just added to that with the new .22 LCP. The various rifles sell plenty well, for hunting and general shooting and the ARs seem to be selling fairly well too. And the 10/22 remains the most popular .22 rifle in the U.S.

I never had trouble selling Rugers when I sold guns. I doubt that's changed much since I stopped selling them a decade ago. I dunno how many Vaqueros Ruger sells every year, but I get the impression they sell more 5.7s with that hold "20 rounds of body armor piercing ammo." Particularly to the boogaloo bois out there.


That is true, and I probably should have worded it differently... "older models that are still viable working guns but out of production and hard to find" or some such thing. The Germans probably have a 52 character word that would fill the bill, but I haven't hit upon the right English term.

g n

altmodischepistole (Old fashioned pistol)

oder

altmodischeschützen (old fashioned protection)



But you probably have to go through quite a few Dardicks to get to the next Glock.

Judging by how rare a particularly novel design is commercially successful...I'd say A LOT of Dardicks have to be made. When we consider the basic lockwork of the Glock is Walther and Browning underneath and that the novelty came in manufacturing technique and simplification - you might argue that it is exceedingly rare. Almost all semi-auto pistol designs today are derived from some variant of Walther or Browning. Innovation is pretty difficult, so I don't really care how it comes if folks are trying, it's going to be tough to build the next Glock or the next 1911.


Happened to me when I became a prostitute....

Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

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Well, at least now we know what you were chosen to be an initial Ruger 57 reviewer.

[GardoneVT]

Scout Rifles are, in my opinion, pretty similar to micro 45 pistols. Everyone says they're cool and everyone says they want one but that never seems to translate into success.

Anyway, the Ruger and Savage Scouts are the two factory options that come to mind although neither is truly Cooper's vision.

As someone who owned a Ruger Scout, the practical problem is they work IF you can have just one long gun. For people in CA, NJ and so on where ARs and AKs get the stink eye they make a lot of sense.

For American residents, it’s easier to just buy a specialized rifle for a given task.

[Tokarev]

And the 10/22 remains the most popular .22 rifle in the U.S.



I suppose the case could be made that, given current markets, Ruger could focus on what historically sells and leave it at that. Turn the 10/22 machine on and let it run until every household in America has one. Or two.



Well, at least now we know what you were chosen to be an initial Ruger 57 reviewer

[emoji16]


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[spence]

It wouldn't be the shooting that loses its appeal. Dealing with people (payment, cancellations, happiness), admin issues, constant concerns about safety, and throw in all the social media/internet experts ripping you; that is what would make it tough.

That right there is my biggest problem in current industry. Stupid people doing stupid things. And I want to move toward being in the gun business? I might just be insane yet.



I suppose the case could be made that, given current markets, Ruger could focus on what historically sells and leave it at that. Turn the 10/22 machine on and let it run until every household in America has one. Or two.



[emoji16]


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I think this is the main reason why I don't want one. I'm just not on that bandwagon. Might even help explain my dislike for Glocks, too.

[Dave T]

The discussion of Scout Riles brings back some very old memories. When I was an instructor at Gunsite in 1978 I was introduced to the Scout Rifle concept by Cooper himself and got to shoot "Scout 1" a couple times. He could go on for hours touting it's virtues, and did around the dinner table for a couple evenings. Naturally, when I got back home I had to build one.

I started with the same Remington 600 in 308 that Cooper used. Found a Redfield 2.5 pistol scope and cobbled up a forward mount. Remember stuff like forward mounts were not yet being made commercially. I even fitted a Ching Sling. I was set, and ventured forth to the range for sighting in and to the desert to bust rocks.

I had several hundred rounds through it, and thought I was shooting it well, when the club I belonged to decided to have their first "practical" rifle match. After sign-in everyone wanted to see my Scout Rifle, but I was starting to notice I was up against AKs, AR-15s, an FN-FAL, and two M1As.

Long story short, I came in dead last...with the emphasis on "dead". I was so far behind the next to the last place shooter I felt like they probably timed my performance with a calendar rather than a timer. After the humiliation of that match the Scout Rifle went into the back of the safe, and eventually on down the road. (smile)

Dave

[Zman001]

Life is too short to just focus on what's practical 100% of the time.

AR15's and glocks are great, but it's nice to slow down every now and again. Lest you end up like some curmudgeon who hates what they do.

[Tokarev]

Life is too short to just focus on what's practical 100% of the time.

AR15's and glocks are great, but it's nice to slow down every now and again. Lest you end up like some curmudgeon who hates what they do.



Sometimes we do try awfully hard to take all the fun out of an otherwise very enjoyable hobby.

We tend to measure things with the metric we know.

An accomplished USPSA shooter will likely look at a certain handgun and say, "This will never work in a match" and dismiss it immediately as useless. By the same token a trap and skeet guy is likely to judge something like a Saiga-12 as a worthless novelty based on his most common use for the shotgun.

Is the new Ruger-57 useless? Yeah I suppose if I apply a defensive mindset to it it has little value. But if I take a step back and try to view it as a hobbyist and a shooter I think I can see how the gun came to be and why Ruger chose to make such an oddball firearm.

Years and years ago I worked in a pawn shop. We did a very good business in used firearms and I'd often buy used guns from the shop or borrow them for a weekend or two. One day we happened to take a SIG 226, a half dozen mags and a nice shoulder holster rig on trade. I immediately blew about a week's pay and claimed the stuff as mine. Awhile later I was showing my new acquisition to a regular customer. He started laughing at me. He said a clean cut kid like myself will buy something like this and never shooy anybody with it. Meanwhile a gang banger in Baltimore has his Raven .25 and probably shot five or six people over the weekend. Touché, Big Al.




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[rob_s]

The discussion of Scout Riles brings back some very old memories. When I was an instructor at Gunsite in 1978 I was introduced to the Scout Rifle concept by Cooper himself and got to shoot "Scout 1" a couple times. He could go on for hours touting it's virtues, and did around the dinner table for a couple evenings. Naturally, when I got back home I had to build one.

I started with the same Remington 600 in 308 that Cooper used. Found a Redfield 2.5 pistol scope and cobbled up a forward mount. Remember stuff like forward mounts were not yet being made commercially. I even fitted a Ching Sling. I was set, and ventured forth to the range for sighting in and to the desert to bust rocks.

I had several hundred rounds through it, and thought I was shooting it well, when the club I belonged to decided to have their first "practical" rifle match. After sign-in everyone wanted to see my Scout Rifle, but I was starting to notice I was up against AKs, AR-15s, an FN-FAL, and two M1As.

Long story short, I came in dead last...with the emphasis on "dead". I was so far behind the next to the last place shooter I felt like they probably timed my performance with a calendar rather than a timer. After the humiliation of that match the Scout Rifle went into the back of the safe, and eventually on down the road. (smile)

Dave

IMO that kind of experiment is part of the problem. Although as I understand it Randy Cain took a Pat Rogers carbine course running a practical rifle against a class full of ARs and did just fine.

I’m still a huge Cooper fan (fuck you millenial contrarians) but I’m not a Moonie about it. I have zero interest in a classic scout. Or do I think the concept was flawless, nor do I think it’s a substitute in 2020 for a basic AR in 5.56 with a LPV (although, in a bad situation, the bolt action hunting rifle may well be how you go out and find yourself said AR...) Randy, along with others like Brockman, took that concept and expounded on it and modernized it, and practical-ized it in the form of the “practical rifle”, and even that’s not exactly what I want. I’ve handled and shot Randy’s Brockmans and I don’t like them, for me. Appreciate them? Yes. Want one? No.

For me, there are concepts in the Scout, and Practical Rifle, that I find could fit an application for me, once further tweaked.

To the point of the thread, I don’t know if that makes it novelty or practicality. As I mentioned up-thread, I frankly find what most people think of as “practical” to not only be novelty but also to be frivolous flights of fancy, which IMO is a lot worse. I can respect the guy that says “I’d like to shoot one of these new Ruger 57s, and maybe even own one, for no particular reason” a lot more than the guy that’s insisting that his collection of 13 Glocks and 9 ARs are purely practical.

[JodyH]

If I was 100% "practical" I'd spend the rest of my life with just a single J frame.
Every other gun I own is just some degree of want not need.

Now that this frivolous novelties argument has been settled.
Which is the best daily wear watch, Rolex Submariner or Blancpain 50 Fathoms?
:cool:

[mtnbkr]

Now that this frivolous novelties argument has been settled.
Which is the best daily wear watch, Rolex Submariner or Blancpain 50 Fathoms?
:cool:

If you carry a cellphone, you don't need a watch.:cool:

Chris

[Guinnessman]

If you carry a cellphone, you don't need a watch.:cool:

Chris

Electronic Watches = 🤢🤮

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[BigD]

Electronic Watches = 🤢🤮

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Yeah, think of the EMP attacks. All those suckers carrying phones and battery watches will be late for the train or board meeting because their watches stopped working.

[BigD]

IMO that kind of experiment is part of the problem. Although as I understand it Randy Cain took a Pat Rogers carbine course running a practical rifle against a class full of ARs and did just fine.
.

Big difference between "doing just fine" in a class versus a competition.

You could probably do just fine shooting on a relay in a class and still finish butt naked last in a competition. I know which one I put more weight on.

Who is this Cooper fellow you boomers are always going on about anyway?

[Dave T]

Who is this Cooper fellow you boomers are always going on about anyway?

He pretty much started all this practical pistol crap, but then you kids don't care about any of that.

Dave

[RJ]

If you carry a cellphone, you don't need a watch.:cool:

Chris

Who wears a watch to tell time? :cool:


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[JAD]

If you carry a cellphone, you don't need a watch.:cool:

Chris

My watch is a cell phone. Your argument is invalid.

[BN]

Who is this Cooper fellow you boomers are always going on about anyway?

I was at an IPSC/USPSA/IDPA match one time. One of the stages was an old Cooper Cantina stage with a start seated at a table. They had a framed picture of Cooper sitting on the table. I over heard some of the young whippersnappers asking who was the old guy in the picture. :)

[HCM]

My watch is a cell phone. Your argument is invalid.

Nerd.

[OlongJohnson]

It's all fun and games until you get wrist cancer, or it breaks when shooting .380 due to reduced bone density.

[rob_s]

you boomers

God, if only.

[Rick R]

Yeah, think of the EMP attacks. All those suckers carrying phones and battery watches will be late for the train or board meeting because their watches stopped working.

Several counties in WV are in the “Quiet Zone” near Greenbank Radio Observatory. It was fun in the old days to see the tourists pull out their flip phones and to their dismay no signal = no clock. Modern phones at least keep time without checking into the mother ship.

[mtnbkr]

Who wears a watch to tell time? :cool:


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The same folks who use their phones to talk?

Chris

[rob_s]

If I was 100% "practical" I'd spend the rest of my life with just a single J frame.
Every other gun I own is just some degree of want not need.

This is kind of a sidebar to all of this, but...

There are already even several definitions of "practical" in this thread. One definition is people that clearly think that gunfighting (and associated activities like training, practice, etc.) is the only "practical" use of a firearm. I used to think this way as well.

After awhile, I started to define "practical" as anything that wasn't just shooting for shooting's sake. Hunting being probably the most "real" example, but also expanded to competition shooting (e.g. USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, $-Gun, NSCA (http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/), etc.) and even potentially recreational, or informal competitive, shooting beyond basic "plinking" (e.g. shooting sporting clays with friends vs actually shooting a match). For me, these things became far more "practical" than gunfighting because I do/did them all the time and never wound up in a gunfight. I still mostly employ this idea, only buying guns/gear/widgets if there is an outcome I'm trying to achieve/improve, or a new activity I'd like to participate in but truly lack the equipment to do so (for example, I want to shoot PCC action steel but my 9mm SBR is suppressed and that's not allowed, and the optic on it is dead, so I "need" to rectify those things if I want to "practically" use the thing, who's existance dates back to my more LARPy past to begin with and therefore I now mostly see as novelty without the upgrades/changes).

next "tier" down would be plinkers or dirt shooters. At least they are getting out and shooting, and frankly the first two tiers are often more about the social aspects than anything else, and plinking certainly can be all about the social aspects without any of the ginned up bullshit.

I would say that ultimate "novelty" would be the guys that buy shit just because brightshinyobject. "Not that there's anything wrong with that", but I think that's a pretty small demographic on this site.

However, I'd say most people are probably some combination of all four.

[NWshooter]

Thank goodness there is a need for novelty in the world, or we’d all be driving an old Reliant K cars instead of having the options of adding a Hemi or a getting a lift for that 4x4.

Variety is the spice of life.

[JTMcC]

I could have a lot of fun with that Ruger and a red dot and a bunch of ammo in the middle of a big prairie dog town.

The ranchers consider it very "practical" when I shoot a bunch of them.