I Will No Longer Use CCI Pistol Primers with Revolver loads.

[Nightvisionary]

CCI has been the mainstay of my reloading operation for decades. With the exception of using Federal GMMM 210M primers for my precision 308 loads, all 9 calibers I load for use CCI. About 2 years ago I started loading 38 Special for an old S&W Model 37 police gun. I was getting consistent failures to fire and figured it was the gun. I switched to Federal primers because I read that CCI tends to be a hard primer. I then loaded some 357 and 38 Special for a Dan Wessone Model 15 357 and had the same issue, some time later I encountered the same issue with another Dan Wesson Model 15. This week I had the same problem with a Taurus Model 85. I don't believe I have encountered problem with Ruger or Colt revolvers or semi auto handguns but the problem is consistent enough with enough of my revolvers that I am switching to Federal.

[Wheeler]

I've used CCI quite a bit for my IDPA loads for .38 Special with rarely a problem. Are you running reduced power or old main springs?

[Nightvisionary]

I've used CCI quite a bit for my IDPA loads for .38 Special with rarely a problem. Are you running reduced power or old main springs?

The Model 37 was an old surplus State Police gun so I figured it needed a new spring. Both Dan Wessons and the Taurus 85 have seen very little use. All previous loads were mid to full load 38 Special and 357 magnum. This week I had the problem with Hogdon recommended minimum 38 special load for Universal. All rounds fired when struck a second time.

[Clusterfrack]

Seating the primer fully can help. I’ve added a primer support die in my 1050, and am now able to use CCI primers for 9mm in a Shadow2 with an 8.5# mainspring.

[Inspector71]

As a long time PPC shooter/reloader, I was told many years ago to use Federal primers only in my competition S&W revolvers. They always seem to pop with my light, after market springs that I installed. I also reload for my unmodified Glock 17 and unmodified Henry .357 rifle. In those guns, I’m using CCI #500 small pistol primers with 100% ignition, so far.

[Nightvisionary]

Seating the primer fully can help. I’ve added a primer support die in my 1050, and am now able to use CCI primers for 9mm in a Shadow2 with an 8.5# mainspring.

I perform all seating with a Hornady Hand Priming tool after cleaning the primer pocket with an RCBS primer pocket brush. I don't know of anyway to do this differently without using a completely different method.

[Clusterfrack]

I perform all seating with a Hornady Hand Priming tool after cleaning the primer pocket with an RCBS primer pocket brush. I don't know of anyway to do this differently without using a completely different method.

I’m not suggesting you don’t switch to Federal. That’s what I’m using for match ammo. But if you crush the fuck out of CCI when you seat them, just short of pressure-marking, you may be able to avoid light strikes.

[BN]

All rounds fired when struck a second time.

That's a sure sign that the primers weren't fully seated. The firing pin striking the primer finishes seating the primer and it fires on the second strike. Primers should be seated slightly below flush.

[Nightvisionary]

That's a sure sign that the primers weren't fully seated. The firing pin striking the primer finishes seating the primer and it fires on the second strike. Primers should be seated slightly below flush.

Ok, but if that is the case why does this only occur with a variety of 38/357 revolvers using only the CCI small pistol primers but not other brand primers or revolvers and never with 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, 5.56, 308, 7MM Rem Mag using the same Hornady hand priming tool?

[45dotACP]

I've seen factory ammo that wasn't appropriately crimped that didn't seat in the cylinder enough. The hammer strike had to both seat the round and detonate the primer but it would not always do both.

Check your crimp?

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[Alpha Sierra]

Ok, but if that is the case why does this only occur with a variety of 38/357 revolvers using only the CCI small pistol primers but not other brand primers or revolvers and never with 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, 5.56, 308, 7MM Rem Mag using the same Hornady hand priming tool?

Headspace differences will certainly account for that variation.

[Clusterfrack]

If your gun has an extended firing pin, and a strong hammer/striker spring, it will usually ignite even very hard and/or high primers (not fully seated). Eg my CGW Prograde P-07s will ignite even weakly seated CCI 41 military rifle primers, with a not so heavy hammer spring.

[Nightvisionary]

Headspace differences will certainly account for that variation.

It is the only rimmed cartridge that I load so I could see that.

[Hambo]

I've had zero problems with recently manufactured CCI SP primers. In the immediate aftermath of the great ammo shortage I had some problems with CCI, and a whole lot of problems with Winchester.

Are you shooting DA, SA, or both? Have you tried them in auto pistol ammo?

[Nightvisionary]

I've had zero problems with recently manufactured CCI SP primers. In the immediate aftermath of the great ammo shortage I had some problems with CCI, and a whole lot of problems with Winchester.

Are you shooting DA, SA, or both? Have you tried them in auto pistol ammo?

Double action. No issues with autoloaders using the same primers. I checked primer depth and several of the guys here were on the money. Many of the primers were not fully seated. I ran a couple hundred back through my Hornady hand priming tool and found I had to squeeze the very bottom of the lever quite hard to get additional seating depth which did leave minor impression marks of the primer face. The depth change is more noticeable by feel than sight. I will see if this makes a difference on the range. I have some pretty significant grip strength so I wonder if it's not time to replace this tool. I should not have to squeeze this hard to get full seating. On a conservative guess I say it has primed 12K rounds.

[BN]

Ok, but if that is the case why does this only occur with a variety of 38/357 revolvers using only the CCI small pistol primers but not other brand primers or revolvers and never with 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, 5.56, 308, 7MM Rem Mag using the same Hornady hand priming tool?

Somebody mentioned headspace. That cartridge is flopping back and forth in a revolver chamber, while the breach face holds it in place with every other type. Also it's more possible to have gunk in the front of the chamber preventing the round from fully seating until it is whacked by the firing pin. Revolvers can be tricky. ;)

Revolver shooters from the past have found that Federal primers with a crush fit are the most reliable. CCI primers have been known as the hardest to set off in lightened actions. Chambers must be perfectly clean. Many revolver shooters seat their primers to look physically slightly flattened.

[Nightvisionary]

Somebody mentioned headspace. That cartridge is flopping back and forth in a revolver chamber, while the breach face holds it in place with every other type. Also it's more possible to have gunk in the front of the chamber preventing the round from fully seating until it is whacked by the firing pin. Revolvers can be tricky. ;)

Revolver shooters from the past have found that Federal primers with a crush fit are the most reliable. CCI primers have been known as the hardest to set off in lightened actions. Chambers must be perfectly clean. Many revolver shooters seat their primers to look physically slightly flattened.

Ok good to know. I think that is right where I am at after running them through the priming tool a second time.

[Wheeler]

Seating the primer fully can help. I’ve added a primer support die in my 1050, and am now able to use CCI primers for 9mm in a Shadow2 with an 8.5# mainspring.

Most revolvers will bind if the primers aren't seated fully long before the hammer has a chance to fall and have a light strike.

[Clusterfrack]

Most revolvers will bind if the primers aren't seated fully long before the hammer has a chance to fall and have a light strike.

I’ve found that many primers that aren’t proud of the rim can still be seated deeper. If the strike is heavy it doesn’t matter, but for light gamer gun strikes, the last few thousandths seem to make a difference.

[358156hp]

And there are variances between primer pocket dimensions as well as primer dimensions. I've also seen primer pockets that are tapered slightly to the bottom. Now couple this with CCIs reputation for producing slightly larger diameter primers. I know this to be true because I've purchased CCI primers in the past because they are larger, and I could get maybe a couple more loadings from some of my brass. So the OPs cases could have some bearing in this issue as well.

https://ballistictools.com/articles/primer-pocket-depth-and-diameter.php

SAAMI small primer specs: .1745 to .1765 diameter, .115 to .126 height. Primer pocket specs: .1730 to .1745 diameter, .123 depth. It looks like primers are expected to be a crush fit in the pockets. Quite a range for something so small.

See page 26 for SAAMI primer pocket specs, the file won't let me cherry pick just one page: https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

[Wayne Dobbs]

Headspace differences will certainly account for that variation.

I was thinking that the OP's revolver needs the headspace checked. I buy CCI SP primers by the 5000 case and use two or three of those a year. Many of those are .38 Special, fired in half a dozen revolvers. I've not had a failure to ignite with them.

[Clusterfrack]

And there are variances between primer pocket dimensions as well as primer dimensions. ...It looks like primers are expected to be a crush fit in the pockets. Quite a range for something so small.


Very interesting info. That’s the conclusion I’ve come to empirically. If you want to ignite CCI primers reliably, you need a crush fit, or a long firing pin and heavy hammer strike. The crush fit is tricky if you are relying on a constant position of the primer pusher to do the job on random range brass. I wish someone would invent a spring-loaded priming system for constant force, not position. Until then, my Level10 primer support die seems to be doing the trick by providing constant force from the case side.

https://lvl10i.com/collections/dillon-upgrades/products/priming-system-support-die-for-super-1050

[LtDave]

I've been using Winchester primers almost exclusively in my pistol loads for some time. No issues at all. I hand prime all my hand loads with a Lee priming tool. I don't have any handguns that require the Federals.

[358156hp]

Very interesting info. That’s the conclusion I’ve come to empirically. If you want to ignite CCI primers reliably, you need a crush fit, or a long firing pin and heavy hammer strike. The crush fit is tricky if you are relying on a constant position of the primer pusher to do the job on random range brass. I wish someone would invent a spring-loaded priming system for constant force, not position. Until then, my Level10 primer support die seems to be doing the trick by providing constant force from the case side.

https://lvl10i.com/collections/dillon-upgrades/products/priming-system-support-die-for-super-1050

All I can come up with so far would need to be adapted from a machine shop engine valve tester. I suppose something could also be conjured up using an inch-pound torque wrench, perhaps in combination with one of the bench mounted primer seating tool popular with benchrest & competition rifle shooters.

If you think handgun primer pockets are messed, look at 223/5.56 primer pockets, especially with military brass. I went through this with some friends a week ago, so the topic was still pretty fresh in my mind when I read this thread. The rifle solution appears to be to seat your primers fully (naturally), and make certain your firing pin protrusion is at least on the high side if you run an AR15. There could really be something to the old complaint that military brass isn't as accurate as commercial brass. This takes us back to the matching commercial cases from the same lot recommendation from just about every match shooter out there anymore.

[willie]

Ok, but if that is the case why does this only occur with a variety of 38/357 revolvers using only the CCI small pistol primers but not other brand primers or revolvers and never with 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, 5.56, 308, 7MM Rem Mag using the same Hornady hand priming tool?

As others have said, seating depth is an important variable. Another is the cases and their primer pocket dimension themselves. A third is cylinder end shake. Few clean primer pockets. Dirty pockets can be a variable. The priming tool itself may be, particularly the primer rod seating the primer.

[jtcarm]

I’ve loaded CCI for decades and never had a problem, including my S&W M-24 which had a competition action job on it 33 years ago and breaks at 7.5 lbs DA. Over 14,000 rounds and counting. Most of those were fired before I even knew there was such a thing as hard/soft primers and used CCIs exclusively. All were loaded on a single stage press and primed with a Lee hand tool.

Every other DA I own is 8-11 lbs and lights off CCIs just fine.

People seem to think Federals are some sort of magic, but they’re really only necessary when mainspring power has been reduced quite a bit. Then they also have to be well-seated. Serious competitors often install an extended firing pin.

Federals are also a bit pricey and harder to find.

The only primers I won’t use are WSP. They don’t play well with the feed on my Hornady LNL AP. The cup is slightly more rounded and they jam up. So I’ve come back to CCI.

A Hornady rep also told me Sellier & Bellot primers are out of spec in size. I haven’t confirmed the primers, but their .38 cases have Uber-tight pockets. After several high primers, I cull them. They require so much pressure to seat a primer I worry about putting additional wear on my press.