ATF adds “non binary” sex option to Form 4473

[HCM]

Interesting...

46523

[GearFondler]

Interesting...

46523Wonder how many tax dollars that cost us...

[YVK]

I wanna see them do that to questions 11-13.

[Caballoflaco]

I think it’s good, if you believe in the whole hearts and minds thing. It’s a subtle welcome to the gun world for people who might feel uncomfortable around a lot of the “gun community”.

[Darth_Uno]

Yawn. As I am (never verified, but family legend) 1/16 Native American and 1/16 African-American, I always wanted to check "Other". White? Black? Eskimo? Male? Female? Shemale? Who fukin cares. Just pass the background check.

[blues]

At least they don't ask if you're a Jew. (Yet.)



I kid. Sorta.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

IIRC, there used to be place on your passport for religion.

[TheNewbie]

Lol . I’m so happy that civilization continues to “advance”.

[SAWBONES]

Just another example of capitulation to social whims and contradiction of objective reality, or at the least, a misunderstanding of language.

Biological sex in human beings is determined by chromosomes, and is fixed and unquestionable (and let's not argue about XO, XXY and XYY, etc. please), while according to modern theory, gender may be determined by fashion, opinion or feeling.

[blues]

Just another example of capitulation to social whims and contradiction of objective reality, or at the least, a misunderstanding of language.

Biological sex in human beings is determined by chromosomes, and is fixed and unquestionable (and let's not argue about XO, XXY and XYY, etc. please), while according to modern theory, gender may be determined by fashion, opinion or feeling.

Excuse me? I self identify as a gun-totin' cowpoke named Jake. Cool your jets, pard. ;)

[Medusa]

I think it’s good, if you believe in the whole hearts and minds thing. It’s a subtle welcome to the gun world for people who might feel uncomfortable around a lot of the “gun community”.

Agreed. It’s not where I’m at, nor most here, but it is for some, and some state id’s allow it. The latter I am sure drives this change.

[Darth_Uno]

My 160# ass identifies as the Incredible Hulk. How dare you tell me I'm not.

In all seriousness, I just don't care. I've taken classes and shot with and against several women, lesbians, and gay men who were better shooters than me (admittedly, that's not a high bar to hurdle). My uncle is 100% pro-gun, pretty much in line with what most of this forum would be on board with. And he's not "maybe he's gay,"...he's full on heeeey gay.

You want to shoot? Let's shoot. I'm cool with everybody until you tell me what I can't do. Why the ATF cares though, I don't really know.

[Medusa]

It isn’t about tired “jokes” about what you identify as. The fact is, in the United States of America, where individual liberty and self determination are still values, a legal framework exists and has long existed for people to change legal sex and in some more recent cases choose a non binary option. Putting this on the form avoids a situation where a 4473 is voided or problematic because offered lawful identification doesn’t match up. Simple as.

[5pins]

Isn't the purpose of the form so a person can be identified by another person? How would one know if a person is "non-binary"? And yes I plan on checking non-binary next time I buy a gun.

[TheNewbie]

This is a subtle sign of the moral and common sense decline of our country. The desire to do away with basic standards is not tolerance , but foolishness pushed by the left and accepted by those who do not think deeply on the issue.

[Dan_S]

This is a subtle sign of the moral and common sense decline of our country. The desire to do away with basic standards is not tolerance , but foolishness pushed by the left and accepted by those who do not think deeply on the issue.

While that’s fine to hold as a personal opinion, at what point does it become tiresome trying to do all the deep thinking for the rest of us, and realize that you...well, only are responsible for your own actions, and let others be responsible for theirs?

Just because the check box exists on the form, in no way puts you morally at risk, by continuing to fill out that form as you always have.

[blues]

I have it on good authority that Elizabeth Warren is putting down Non-Binary Cherokee Pacific Islander with a side of Aleut.

That should at least cover lances and harpoons...

[TheNewbie]

While that’s fine to hold as a personal opinion, at what point does it become tiresome trying to do all the deep thinking for the rest of us, and realize that you...well, only are responsible for your own actions, and let others be responsible for theirs?

Just because the check box exists on the form, in no way puts you morally at risk, by continuing to fill out that form as you always have.

I would say the death of the male female distinction is a moral risk. Others differ. My opinion is that they are dangerously wrong and are/naive .

[DMF13]

Why the ATF cares though, I don't really know.
Because people complained that they were requiring firearms transferees to answer the question, even if their government issued ID didn't identify the person as male or female.


https://www.cato.org/blog/atf-attempts-deny-non-binary-trans-americans-guns

It doesn't matter what the ATF does, so many have bought into the lies about ATF, that now if the ATF officially declared water is wet people would complain they are evil, stupid, etc. for saying that.

[BehindBlueI's]

Why bother to keep a sex checkbox list at this point? With my name, DOB, and SSN I doubt it's male/female that's differentiating me from some female doppelganger out there. Unless it's just to make warrants easier to file for...wait, is it just to make warrants easier to file for?

[blues]

Why bother to keep a sex checkbox list at this point? With my name, DOB, and SSN I doubt it's male/female that's differentiating me from some female doppelganger out there. Unless it's just to make warrants easier to file for...wait, is it just to make warrants easier to file for?

I don't get it at all. Since it's politically incorrect to describe the perpetrator of a crime by gender, (sexist), age, (ageist), race or ethnicity, (racist), height or weight, (hater), there's no sense in checking off any boxes at all.



Radio: BBI and all units be on the look out for a life form of indeterminate height, weight, race, gender, build for possible involvement in armed robbery of (possibly) a person but we can't be sure and don't like to assume.

[Dan_S]

I would say the death of the male female distinction is a moral risk. Others differ. My opinion is that they are dangerously wrong and are/naive .

Again, fine to hold as a personal opinion.


Not fine, when every subject imaginable is used as a soapbox for the morality lecture, when it changes nothing, and for which you (in general) are nowhere on the list of potential problems or solutions.


It strikes me as odd how the religious right can’t seem to let stuff go. As a friend of mine has said many times, that religious folks often holler the loudest, about those sins and temptations that they aren’t struggling with. It seems to show an institutionally accepted lack of introspective ability to always focus on problems with ’others’ rather than recognition of ones own shortcomings.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

In my time behind the gun counter we had a handful of sales to trans/non-binary customers. I personally handled one of them. My experience in this regard predates states allowing non-binary IDs, so bear that in mind...

When the question of sex/gender came up (I was in CA, so I had to input the info on the Dealers Record Of Sale and the customer had to put it on the 4473) I instructed the customer to make sure it matched what was on their ID. They were okay with this solution and the transaction was otherwise normal and proceeded without a hitch. Now that some states are allowing "x" or non-binary options on state issued IDs, it seems logical that there would be an update to the federal form to ensure that all the background check documents agree.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just my two cents.

[TAZ]

The more time they spend on idiotic form text, the less time they have to reclassify stuff on a whim.

If sex doesn’t matter and we are all equal why do we need to track it??

[Darth_Uno]

The more time they spend on idiotic form text, the less time they have to reclassify stuff on a whim.

If sex doesn’t matter and we are all equal why do we need to track it??

Maybe because white males are at a higher statistical risk for hate crime shootings. Or maybe because black males are at a higher risk for gang violence shootings. Or maybe because non-binary individuals of all races are at a higher risk for suicide, with or without a gun. Or maybe just guns are bad.

[blues]

https://allaboutdnt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/firefox-os.jpg

[PNWTO]

I think it’s a good move for a deeper reason than the ATF probably thought. Gun ownership is pretty well tied to a conservative image and if the new option makes a new gun owner feel .0001% more included and represented, that’s a win. We need more gun owners (duh) and a good deal of diversity.

[Darth_Uno]

At least they don't ask if you're a Jew. (Yet.)



I kid. Sorta.

Question 14: Eat this slice of ham.

[Screwball]

Why bother to keep a sex checkbox list at this point? With my name, DOB, and SSN I doubt it's male/female that's differentiating me from some female doppelganger out there. Unless it's just to make warrants easier to file for...wait, is it just to make warrants easier to file for?

More information is usually better... especially from a records standpoint.

At my last job, my boss’ wife had the same exact name as his ex-wife (never changed her name after the divorce)... and their social security numbers were different by one digit. Of course the ex used that to her advantage when applying for loans/lines of credit.

For my current job, NCIC hits might be completely off... as it could be a black woman on the hit, and white man in front of me. Likewise, with certain names, you might not have much to figure it is a no-match other than something like race or sex. When seconds count, the quicker to come to that conclusion... the better.

Does that mean anything for ATF record keeping? Probably not... but if they ask for it, so be it. I do my best not to fill out extra 4473s, as I try to do FTF and C&R sales. Think it is a little odd that they put in the third option, but they also made sure to add in a specific question related to marijuana. Guess they are just keeping up with the times.

[Hambo]

Sorry for the binary term, but some of you motherfuckers need to get in touch with your inner...

46527


I think the whole thing is silly. You drop out of your binary parental unit with one kind of junk or the other, making you binary. I get that people are attracted to whichever binary unit, or perhaps both binary units. But in my biology book, it's A or B. There is no "neither".

[Bigghoss]

I'm for it. As much as I can be for anything on a 4473.

I'm just gonna leave this here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT0HJkr1jj4&t=440s

[farscott]

Are we sure this is real? I just downloaded Form 4473 from https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download and it still is the October 2016 revision.

I found it at https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/f_4473_5300._9_pt._1_revision_09-18-2019_with_watermark.pdf It is a draft form at this point. The comment period runs from Dec. 26, 2019 to Feb. 24, 2020.

[blues]

Sorry for the binary term, but some of you motherfuckers need to get in touch with your inner...

46527


I think the whole thing is silly. You drop out of your binary parental unit with one kind of junk or the other, making you binary. I get that people are attracted to whichever binary unit, or perhaps both binary units. But in my biology book, it's A or B. There is no "neither".

Excuse me, "fornicates with shovels"...let's call a spade a spade.

Let's not discriminate against those that dig doing it in the dirt.


;)

(Added in case the humor-challenged are triggered.)

[NEPAKevin]

I have it on good authority that Elizabeth Warren is putting down Non-Binary Cherokee Pacific Islander with a side of Aleut.

That should at least cover lances and harpoons...

I heard that her father is 1/32 Janitor.

Slight thread drift. Has anyone ever been tempted while filling out an official government form that has something like an "other/explain" comments box been tempted to write "Jeffery Epstein did not kill himself?" Asking for a friend.

[Stephanie B]

Why should anyone give a shit? Seriously?

Making it easier and possibly more comfortable to buy guns.... what's the problem, here? If some third-sex vegan unicorn-humper wants to buy a Glock, fine by me. If changing the 4473 form gets more people in to buy guns, I'm good with that.

To those crying about it offends their moral sense of superiority, call for a Whaabulance

46528

[CCT125US]

Wonder if there was some over priced study done about this?

[revchuck38]

Question 14: Eat this slice of ham.

That'd be characterized as Islamophobic. Nobody in da Gummint cares about offending Jews.

[SeriousStudent]

So on line 6 of the proposed form where it asks "Total Number of Firearms to be Transferred" can I just write "all of them", and save everybody a lot of time?

[blues]

That'd be characterized as Islamophobic. Nobody in da Gummint cares about offending Jews.

(And besides, they're not all avoiding pork or shellfish in Chinese restaurants...;))

[Darth_Uno]

That'd be characterized as Islamophobic. Nobody in da Gummint cares about offending Jews.

I can't help but be reminded of the kid working in the grocery store who offered a sample of ham to the rabbi.

"I can't," he said, "I'm Jewish."

"That's ok, its free."

[Borderland]

Just another example of capitulation to social whims and contradiction of objective reality, or at the least, a misunderstanding of language.

Biological sex in human beings is determined by chromosomes, and is fixed and unquestionable (and let's not argue about XO, XXY and XYY, etc. please), while according to modern theory, gender may be determined by fashion, opinion or feeling.

Edited. I've seen sex determined at birth on some documents. That's on everyone's birth cert. Once you're on record you can call it anything you like. It's a free country.

[BehindBlueI's]

f some third-sex vegan unicorn-humper wants to buy a Glock, fine by me.

Well, let's not get carried away. If we're going to cater to vegans we'll need to set aside 10-25 minutes to allow discussion about veganism once they see the question. Add a question about Cross Fit and one that asks "are you buying this gun ironically?" and you'll make the system grind to a halt as gun store clerks ruin the forms with their tears.

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeah, they could just ask sex determined at birth. That's on everyone's birth cert. and I'm pretty sure that can't be changed. Non binary is not your bio sex.

Which does bring to mind that I can now change my sex on my state driver's license but had to remove "Sr." because the BMV can't fucking grasp I wasn't born having a son. Apparently my name is set in stone by my birth certificate but my sex isn't. Or at least I'm a danger on an airplane if I have "Sr." after my name. Or something. Probably blows their fucking minds I have it on my police ID.

[SAWBONES]

This is a subtle sign of the moral and common sense decline of our country. The desire to do away with basic standards is not tolerance, but foolishness pushed by the left and accepted by those who do not think deeply on the issue.
...

I would say the death of the male female distinction is a moral risk. Others differ. My opinion is that they are dangerously wrong and are/naive .


Of course pretending that the categories of male and female have no objective reality is both foolish and dishonest, or at the very least, woefully ignorant, yet this is the propaganda being put forth by some today.

I have nothing but sympathy for those who, for whatever reason, are genuinely uncertain about or confused about their gender orientation or sexual orientation, but what I resist is the attempt by a relatively tiny fraction of the population which espouses a gender orientation other than their biological sex, to aggressively insist that everyone else must bow down to, accommodate and otherwise adjust their thoughts and actions to what are simply post-modern concepts of "gender fluidity", which concepts have no more objective reality than any others of our various preferences, ideas or feelings.

Prevailing social mores, ideas and trends don't represent Truth, nor do they, by their mere existence, recommend widespread uncritical adoption and approval by everyone. These things change with time and circumstance. The second edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual listed homosexuality as a sexual deviation, under the category of "Personality disorders and certain other nonpsychotic mental disorders". The change to a more modern view wasn't attributable to new scientific discoveries, but simply to social changes over time.

It should go without saying that basic courtesy and basic (but not undue) respect should be regarded as appropriate toward everyone.
I certainly will refer to persons by whatever pronouns they wish, for instance, if they'll make a point of mentioning such, but I won't ask of each and every new person I meet regarding their "preferred pronouns", nor will I assume or accept that it's necessarily offensive of me not to do so.

If the person in question appears masculine I'll refer to him as "he", or if feminine, I'll say "she", and if things look indeterminate or "counter", I probably would take a "wait and see" approach so as not to cause offense, but c'mon, there are much more important things in the world than to be preoccupied about everyone's "gender self-perception", and changing business and record keeping forms to allow gender-fluid perceptions to represent identity characteristics is irrational and actually potentially confusing.

Suggesting that the sex recorded on ones' driver's license and that on Form 4473 match is a sensible compromise till something more acceptably objective can be agreed upon. Pandering to whatever sort of political correctness is being currently advocated by "the winds of social acceptability" is just not worth chasing or even worrying about.

[Stephanie B]

Question 14: Eat this slice of ham.

You got some problem with Jews buying guns?

Shit's gonna get really ugly...

[Stephanie B]

Edited. I've seen sex determined at birth on some documents. That's on everyone's birth cert. Once you're on record you can call it anything you like. It's a free country.

News flash: Most states permit changing the sex on birth certificates. Or they have, until the Snowflake Division of the Christian Taliban got on its high horse of moral outrage.

[Stephanie B]

Of course pretending that the categories of male and female have no objective reality is both foolish and dishonest, or at the very least, woefully ignorant, yet this is the propaganda being put forth by some today.

I have nothing but sympathy for those who, for whatever reason, are genuinely uncertain about or confused about their gender orientation or sexual orientation, but what I resist is the attempt by a relatively tiny fraction of the population which espouses a gender orientation other than their biological sex, to aggressively insist that everyone else must bow down to, accommodate and otherwise adjust their thoughts and actions to what are simply post-modern concepts of "gender fluidity", which concepts have no more objective reality than any others of our various preferences, ideas or feelings.

Prevailing social mores, ideas and trends don't represent Truth, nor do they, by their mere existence, recommend widespread uncritical adoption and approval by everyone. These things change with time and circumstance. The second edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual listed homosexuality as a sexual deviation, under the category of "Personality disorders and certain other nonpsychotic mental disorders". The change to a more modern view wasn't attributable to new scientific discoveries, but simply to social changes over time.

It should go without saying that basic courtesy and basic (but not undue) respect should be regarded as appropriate toward everyone.
I certainly will refer to persons by whatever pronouns they wish, for instance, if they'll make a point of mentioning such, but I won't ask of each and every new person I meet regarding their "preferred pronouns", nor will I assume or accept that it's necessarily offensive of me not to do so.

If the person in question appears masculine I'll refer to him as "he", or if feminine, I'll say "she", and if things look indeterminate or "counter", I probably would take a "wait and see" approach so as not to cause offense, but c'mon, there are much more important things in the world than to be preoccupied about everyone's "gender self-perception", and changing business and record keeping forms to allow gender-fluid perceptions to represent identity characteristics is irrational and actually potentially confusing.

Suggesting that the sex recorded on ones' driver's license and that on Form 4473 match is a sensible compromise till something more acceptably objective can be agreed upon. Pandering to whatever sort of political correctness is being currently advocated by "the winds of social acceptability" is just not worth chasing or even worrying about.

Let's not forget that the classification of homosexuality as a mental illness was also driven by the social norms of the day. So was the treatment of strong-willed women as being "hysterical" or some other bit of Victorian-age moralistic garbage.

Beyond that, I'm probably better shutting up.

[Greg]

Well, let's not get carried away. If we're going to cater to vegans we'll need to set aside 10-25 minutes to allow discussion about veganism once they see the question. Add a question about Cross Fit and one that asks "are you buying this gun ironically?" and you'll make the system grind to a halt as gun store clerks ruin the forms with their tears.

This may be the greatest post in the history of PF - but the mods here are still shit.

Keto assholes are almost as bad as vegans. I've got your cauliflower crust right here weirdo....

[SAWBONES]

So was the treatment of strong-willed women as being "hysterical" or some other bit of Victorian-age moralistic garbage.


I don't think that actually happened within respectable science.

Strong-willed women are usually advantageous, just like strong-willed men.:)
And vive la difference in the sexes in any case.

[11B10]

I don't get it at all. Since it's politically incorrect to describe the perpetrator of a crime by gender, (sexist), age, (ageist), race or ethnicity, (racist), height or weight, (hater), there's no sense in checking off any boxes at all.



Radio: BBI and all units be on the look out for a life form of indeterminate height, weight, race, gender, build for possible involvement in armed robbery of (possibly) a person but we can't be sure and don't like to assume.




Best BOLO evah!

[TheNewbie]

Of course pretending that the categories of male and female have no objective reality is both foolish and dishonest, or at the very least, woefully ignorant, yet this is the propaganda being put forth by some today.

I have nothing but sympathy for those who, for whatever reason, are genuinely uncertain about or confused about their gender orientation or sexual orientation, but what I resist is the attempt by a relatively tiny fraction of the population which espouses a gender orientation other than their biological sex, to aggressively insist that everyone else must bow down to, accommodate and otherwise adjust their thoughts and actions to what are simply post-modern concepts of "gender fluidity", which concepts have no more objective reality than any others of our various preferences, ideas or feelings.

Prevailing social mores, ideas and trends don't represent Truth, nor do they, by their mere existence, recommend widespread uncritical adoption and approval by everyone. These things change with time and circumstance. The second edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual listed homosexuality as a sexual deviation, under the category of "Personality disorders and certain other nonpsychotic mental disorders". The change to a more modern view wasn't attributable to new scientific discoveries, but simply to social changes over time.

It should go without saying that basic courtesy and basic (but not undue) respect should be regarded as appropriate toward everyone.
I certainly will refer to persons by whatever pronouns they wish, for instance, if they'll make a point of mentioning such, but I won't ask of each and every new person I meet regarding their "preferred pronouns", nor will I assume or accept that it's necessarily offensive of me not to do so.

If the person in question appears masculine I'll refer to him as "he", or if feminine, I'll say "she", and if things look indeterminate or "counter", I probably would take a "wait and see" approach so as not to cause offense, but c'mon, there are much more important things in the world than to be preoccupied about everyone's "gender self-perception", and changing business and record keeping forms to allow gender-fluid perceptions to represent identity characteristics is irrational and actually potentially confusing.

Suggesting that the sex recorded on ones' driver's license and that on Form 4473 match is a sensible compromise till something more acceptably objective can be agreed upon. Pandering to whatever sort of political correctness is being currently advocated by "the winds of social acceptability" is just not worth chasing or even worrying about.


Anyone who mistreats, torments, is unkind to people with this unfortunate mental illness is a horrible person who I have no sympathy for. These people need help, not to be ridiculed and hated on for what they have to deal with. Of course someone trying to shove it down your throat is a different story, but I don’t think that’s the majority.

I agree that I calling the person he or she on how they appear is common courtesy.

[TheNewbie]

News flash: Most states permit changing the sex on birth certificates. Or they have, until the Snowflake Division of the Christian Taliban got on its high horse of moral outrage.

Good way to cheapen the evil of the Taliban.

[KellyinAvon]

Double Dog Dare! When filling out the 4473, ask if non-binary means occasionally.

[Kanye Wyoming]

At least they don't ask if you're a Jew. (Yet.)



I kid. Sorta.

Double Dog Dare! When filling out the 4473, ask if non-binary means occasionally.
African American has always struck me as an inadequately precise term. I have cousins-in-law who are from South Africa, as pasty-faced Asheknazi Jewish as I am, and they are legit African American.

Lore has it that my paternal line stretches back to Moses’s brother Aaron. Who was from Egypt. Which is in Africa. Which makes me African American. Lest one object that there was a long interval between the departure from Africa and the arrival in America, Colin Powell’s ancestors spent about 400 years in Jamaica before his parents arrived in America and on official government websites he was identified as African American.

Close to 20 years ago my wife and I went to the bank to sign the papers for a car loan. The bank officer was filling out the Equal Credit Opportunity Act paperwork, and when she got to race I asked for the choices, which included African American but not Black. I responded African American. She gave me a funny look, I said I’d be happy to explain, my wife said just put down African American or you’ll be here all day listening to his explanation.

I may reconsider if they start asking if you’re a Jew, but to date I’ve never had the stones to check the “Black or African American” box on a 4443.

[Borderland]

Which does bring to mind that I can now change my sex on my state driver's license but had to remove "Sr." because the BMV can't fucking grasp I wasn't born having a son. Apparently my name is set in stone by my birth certificate but my sex isn't. Or at least I'm a danger on an airplane if I have "Sr." after my name. Or something. Probably blows their fucking minds I have it on my police ID.

Yeah, it just gets weirder by day. I'm thinking maybe the ATF had to change the form due to states DMV accepting non binary.

Maybe a Voight-Kampff test is in order here just to make sure you aren't selling a firearm to a restricted replicant. Now that would be a problem.;)

[Dan_S]

Good way to cheapen the evil of the Taliban.



Homework assignment, due by Friday.

1000 word essay on the subject: A Lesson On Self Examination; Christianity, Crusaders, and Me.

[Borderland]

Double Dog Dare! When filling out the 4473, ask if non-binary means occasionally.

Maybe just a yes or no box under 14. Sex. That would cover it.;)

[Kanye Wyoming]

Add a question about Cross Fit and one that asks "are you buying this gun ironically?" and you'll make the system grind to a halt as gun store clerks ruin the forms with their tears.
46533

[TheNewbie]

Homework assignment, due by Friday.

1000 word essay on the subject: A Lesson On Self Examination; Christianity, Crusaders, and Me.

We should all engage in self examination.

The Crusades were long ago, and not all bad. Even if they were complete evil, it’s not a fair comparison to recent and on going evil.

This is the lack of deep thinking and wisdom that leads to not understanding the importance of things like the male female distinction.

I think I have a higher regard for the “non religious right” than you do. It would shock me if many of them couldn’t see the danger of this. I’m not sure that I belong to the religious right, but if that’s the camp that understands the battle we are in best, then count me in.

[FNFAN]

Radio: BBI and all units be on the look out for a life form of indeterminate height, weight, race, gender, build for possible involvement in armed robbery of (possibly) a person but we can't be sure and don't like to assume.


That's good! Damn near caused a hysterical paroxysm, I was laughin' so hard!:rolleyes:

[Casual Friday]

Why aren't they just checking the box of whatever gender they think they are? I mean that's what they do with bathrooms.

[Dan_S]

We should all engage in self examination.

The Crusades were long ago, and not all bad. Even if they were complete evil, it’s not a fair comparison to recent and on going evil.

This is the lack of deep thinking and wisdom that leads to not understanding the importance of things like the male female distinction.

I think I have a higher regard for the “non religious right” than you do. It would shock me if many of them couldn’t see the danger of this. I’m not sure that I belong to the religious right, but if that’s the camp that understands the battle we are in best, then count me in.


I got nothing against you. Really.

It’s just this blind repetition of...four legs good, two legs bad...that gets old, in a real hurry.

Look, there’s like, your opinion, man, and there’s reality. Reality says what you (or I) think doesn’t carry any weight, and pitching a fit every time something out there in the big bad world happens that I don’t like isn’t exactly the most...effective method of...living. Also, not very many theocracies left in the world.

I’m not likely to check a ‘non binary’ box, and those in my social circle aren’t either, but I don’t give a tinkers damn if the ATF puts it on a 4473 either. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all.

Put another way, I come from a very conservative religious background. I can smell morality police from a mile away - I’ve lived in that world - and invariably, they’re either superb hypocrites, or mislead about what exactly their own transgressions are, and what they are supposed to do about that.

If you go back and reread your (assuming you come from a Christian background) scripture, I believe that Jesus himself spent an inordinate amount of time among those of...questionable moral behaviour. I believe, the quote goes something like this: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


In Torah, the crimes punishable by death are pretty clearly spelled out. Adultery, is right up there with a man having sexual relations with another man, but oddly, folks tend to overlook the one, and condemn the other - odd, considering that it doesn’t seem like what is defined as ‘sin’ really has a spectrum to fall on. It’s either sin, or not sin. Funny enough, as specific as the writings of Moshe are, not one word about the ‘non-binary’ box on a 4473.

All that to say, that when I have all my ducks in a row, morally, I’ll feel perfectly justified in casting stones. Til then, the BATFE can put whatever currently-legally-recognized designation on a form, and it affecteth me not in the slightest, while I ponder the innumerable sins I’ve committed in my life.

[Totem Polar]

Casual Friday, that avatar pic of yours is epic.

I mean, I feel bad that Mr. Wilson is now going to become a million and one memes—many of which he might not personally appreciate... but so long as it’s inevitable, that one rocks.

[Casual Friday]

Casual Friday, that avatar pic of yours is epic.

I mean, I feel bad that Mr. Wilson is now going to become a million and one memes—many of which he might not personally appreciate... but so long as it’s inevitable, that one rocks.

Occasionally I come up with something that a few people like.

[TheNewbie]

I got nothing against you. Really.

It’s just this blind repetition of...four legs good, two legs bad...that gets old, in a real hurry.

Look, there’s like, your opinion, man, and there’s reality. Reality says what you (or I) think doesn’t carry any weight, and pitching a fit every time something out there in the big bad world happens that I don’t like isn’t exactly the most...effective method of...living. Also, not very many theocracies left in the world.

I’m not likely to check a ‘non binary’ box, and those in my social circle aren’t either, but I don’t give a tinkers damn if the ATF puts it on a 4473 either. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all.

Put another way, I come from a very conservative religious background. I can smell morality police from a mile away - I’ve lived in that world - and invariably, they’re either superb hypocrites, or mislead about what exactly their own transgressions are, and what they are supposed to do about that.

If you go back and reread your (assuming you come from a Christian background) scripture, I believe that Jesus himself spent an inordinate amount of time among those of...questionable moral behaviour. I believe, the quote goes something like this: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


In Torah, the crimes punishable by death are pretty clearly spelled out. Adultery, is right up there with a man having sexual relations with another man, but oddly, folks tend to overlook the one, and condemn the other - odd, considering that it doesn’t seem like what is defined as ‘sin’ really has a spectrum to fall on. It’s either sin, or not sin. Funny enough, as specific as the writings of Moshe are, not one word about the ‘non-binary’ box on a 4473.

All that to say, that when I have all my ducks in a row, morally, I’ll feel perfectly justified in casting stones. Til then, the BATFE can put whatever currently-legally-recognized designation on a form, and it affecteth me not in the slightest, while I ponder the innumerable sins I’ve committed in my life.

I’m sure you are decent person, and that is not meant in a patronizing way.

Sadly your post is foolish. Not because you disagree with me, but you are more obsessed with what you are acussing me of than I am.

You are clearly religiously obsessed and I think this might blind you.

Christ did spend time among the undesirable of society, as I often do. Christ did not encourage them in their bad behavior.

I’m not even condemning these people on a micro individual level , but I am condemning the movement on a societal macro level.

The Torah was trying to improve the world it operated in. The world can not be improved over night , and the Torah was/is wise enough to understand this. Such as the “eye for an eye” is an advancement in moral justice. You wouldn’t know that from modern moral ignorance.

Most religious people I know do not want a theocracy.

The 4473 is not the issue but a symptom of the issue. A society must have standards.

We all sin but that doesn’t mean we shy away and don’t label good and , wise and foolish, healthy and destructive.

[TheNewbie]

Occasionally I come up with something that a few people like.

It’s a whole different level of epic.

Did you make it?

[willie]

When norms change, the process is an example of cultural evolution. Often tolerance slowly develops. Over time groups who have been discriminated against and oppressed in various ways experience more freedom in that they are harassed less. Opportunities open up. They are less at risk. Adding another box to check on government forms has zero to do with morals of the nation. Who gives a shit? Worry about something else. You will never see me walking in a tranny parade, but you might see me use an axe handle on some other person who was interfering with the marchers.

[HeavyDuty]

I ❤️ my ignore list.

[11B10]

Deleted

[Borderland]

News flash: Most states permit changing the sex on birth certificates. Or they have, until the Snowflake Division of the Christian Taliban got on its high horse of moral outrage.

That's true.

But you have to realize that the document you will be getting from the state (birth cert) and the 'official' record isn't your original birth cert. Just like a DL or passport, those documents are created electronically. You live in a database of some sort, probably more than one, and the keepers pull up whatever information they have to create the official legal document. If they add a new field to their database (non-binary) that field will have supporting metadata (data about data). That could include things like court orders or medical records that would show up with the non-binary field. Your original birth cert, if you have one, was more than likely scanned into the database and archived someplace in a basement under mountains of other official documents and isn't available to be altered. Original documents are rarely ever altered, only scanned or copied into a database. If they do get altered there has to be something that would indicate that they were altered on the face of the document.

I wouldn't expect many people to know this though because it's a gov't records thing.

I'm not current but part of my job when I was working was researching and generating legal documents (cadastral records) and working with geographical information systems. I used images of documents that were 150 years old but those documents live in the nat'l archives someplace.

[farscott]

After discussion with my LGS, the reason for the change to the "Sex" field is to allow Form 4473 to be consistent with the (as of now) sixteen states that currently offer "non-binary" as a choice for driver's licenses, state ID, and/or birth certificates. The information on the Form 4473 is supposed to match the information on the ID uses by the FFL to verify the form. If the choice exists on a state ID, it should be an option to complete on the Form 4473.

[Stephanie B]

Good way to cheapen the evil of the Taliban.

Not really. Both groups seek to impose their versions of morals and religions on other people. I've heard and read Christian Talibanistas calling for people like me to be ostracized and executed. They don't have the power to do that, but they have the ambition.

I didn't first get into firearms for the fun of it.

[Stephanie B]

After discussion with my LGS, the reason for the change to the "Sex" field is to allow Form 4473 to be consistent with the (as of now) sixteen states that currently offer "non-binary" as a choice for driver's licenses, state ID, and/or birth certificates. The information on the Form 4473 is supposed to match the information on the ID uses by the FFL to verify the form. If the choice exists on a state ID, it should be an option to complete on the Form 4473.

I am waiting for a state to authorize putting down "orange" as a hair color. The butthurt will be epic.

:p

[RoyGBiv]

Am I the only one that thought this might be a prank? Onion-esque?

Apparently not.

FR: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2019-12-26/pdf/2019-27719.pdf
ATF Web: https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/f_4473_5300._9_pt._1_revision_09-18-2019_with_watermark.pdf

FWIW, I'm all for whatever it takes to get more good people to arm themselves.

[SAWBONES]

African American has always struck me as an inadequately precise term. I have cousins-in-law who are from South Africa, as pasty-faced Asheknazi Jewish as I am, and they are legit African American.

Lore has it that my paternal line stretches back to Moses’s brother Aaron. Who was from Egypt. Which is in Africa. Which makes me African American. Lest one object that there was a long interval between the departure from Africa and the arrival in America, Colin Powell’s ancestors spent about 400 years in Jamaica before his parents arrived in America and on official government websites he was identified as African American.

Close to 20 years ago my wife and I went to the bank to sign the papers for a car loan. The bank officer was filling out the Equal Credit Opportunity Act paperwork, and when she got to race I asked for the choices, which included African American but not Black. I responded African American. She gave me a funny look, I said I’d be happy to explain, my wife said just put down African American or you’ll be here all day listening to his explanation.

I may reconsider if they start asking if you’re a Jew, but to date I’ve never had the stones to check the “Black or African American” box on a 4443.

Funny story!


Yes, Af-ri-can-A-mer-i-can is not only an over-long descriptive category, but in many cases simply an inaccurate one.

How did plain old simple "black" and "white" become so politically incorrect in the first place?

Everyone understood that "white" people were those whose skin color actually ran a continuum of shades from palest pinkish-white to moderately dark yellowish-brown, and that "black" people had skin colors ranging from palest tan to inky-blue-black.
Neither of the simple "color" terms was innately insulting or derogatory, even if less than accurate.

I guess using skin color as a descriptive term for designating groups of people must have somehow seemed offensive or overly simplistic to our modern determiners of social propriety (after all, no provision was included for skin color descriptors of Asian or Hispanic people!), but "African American" and "Caucasian" are neither better nor more accurate than ol' "black" and "white".



Disclaimer: By modern standards, I'm an old curmudgeon ("Boomer") with an old curmudgeon's perspective on history, who probably despises nearly any example of "political correctness" you could name.
:cool:

[Casual Friday]

It’s a whole different level of epic.

Did you make it?

Yes I did.

[Borderland]

After discussion with my LGS, the reason for the change to the "Sex" field is to allow Form 4473 to be consistent with the (as of now) sixteen states that currently offer "non-binary" as a choice for driver's licenses, state ID, and/or birth certificates. The information on the Form 4473 is supposed to match the information on the ID uses by the FFL to verify the form. If the choice exists on a state ID, it should be an option to complete on the Form 4473.

Yep, a lot of states are running their own BC's these days. They're putting those 4473 into their own databases along with NICS. All kinds of stuff is going to pop up and some of it will trigger a denial. It isn't 1990 anymore.

I ran a pistol thru just to see if I was a citizen without any database warts. My credit score was good. ;)

[Casual Friday]

Not really. Both groups seek to impose their versions of morals and religions on other people. I've heard and read Christian Talibanistas calling for people like me to be ostracized and executed. They don't have the power to do that, but they have the ambition.

I didn't first get into firearms for the fun of it.

If the Orange Fuhrer and the so called "cHrIsTiAn tAlIbAn" are who you say they are, you would have already been bound and tossed from a building. You're smarter than this Stephanie and lumping all of a large group of people together because of a tiny percentage is beneath you. I expect it from Rabid Butterfly but not you.

[Dan_S]

If the Orange Fuhrer and the so called "cHrIsTiAn tAlIbAn" are who you say they are, you would have already been bound and tossed from a building. You're smarter than this Stephanie and lumping all of a large group of people together because of a tiny percentage is beneath you. I expect it from Rabid Butterfly but not you.

If you gave the Westboro Baptists legal immunity, what do you think would happen?

[TGS]

Monday: Oh, a post about a change on the 4473. Maybe I'll get to that tomorrow.

Tuesday: Oh, it's actually a discussion about the holy books, Crusades, and Trump throwing gay people out of buildings to a crowd of Westboro Baptists.

Great job, P-F, if batting for zero was the goal.

[HeavyDuty]

African American has always struck me as an inadequately precise term. I have cousins-in-law who are from South Africa, as pasty-faced Asheknazi Jewish as I am, and they are legit African American.

Lore has it that my paternal line stretches back to Moses’s brother Aaron. Who was from Egypt. Which is in Africa. Which makes me African American. Lest one object that there was a long interval between the departure from Africa and the arrival in America, Colin Powell’s ancestors spent about 400 years in Jamaica before his parents arrived in America and on official government websites he was identified as African American.

Close to 20 years ago my wife and I went to the bank to sign the papers for a car loan. The bank officer was filling out the Equal Credit Opportunity Act paperwork, and when she got to race I asked for the choices, which included African American but not Black. I responded African American. She gave me a funny look, I said I’d be happy to explain, my wife said just put down African American or you’ll be here all day listening to his explanation.

I may reconsider if they start asking if you’re a Jew, but to date I’ve never had the stones to check the “Black or African American” box on a 4443.

A sadly now deceased hobby friend of mine was Rhodesian born of British heritage, and emigrated here after the Zimbabwe changeover in 79 to save his and his family’s skins. (He was a senior cop over there and despite his fairness was informed that a dirt nap might be in his future unless he left.) He settled in CA and took great pleasure in identifying as an African American ever after.

[Casual Friday]

If you gave the Westboro Baptists legal immunity, what do you think would happen?

Well considering there's about 60 or 70 of them, and a bunch are obese boomers, senior citizens, and teenagers, most likely nothing.

[HeavyDuty]

Well considering there's about 60 or 70 of them, and a bunch are obese boomers, senior citizens, and teenagers, most likely nothing.

Have you ever stood nose to nose with these fuckers? I have. I’ve had to wash their stench off of me afterwards. I wouldn’t put horribly evil things past them.

[Casual Friday]

Have you ever stood nose to nose with these fuckers? I have. I’ve had to wash their stench off of me afterwards. I wouldn’t put horribly evil things past them.

I don't do the counter protest protest counter protest thing, so no. I have better things to do than think my presence there will really show em. They're all hat, no cattle.

[HeavyDuty]

I don't do the counter protest protest counter protest thing, so no. I have better things to do than think my presence there will really show em. They're all hat, no cattle.
I chose to protect vulnerable people from these monsters. Protesting has nothing to do with their form of pure hate and evil. Goodbye.

[TheNewbie]

Not really. Both groups seek to impose their versions of morals and religions on other people. I've heard and read Christian Talibanistas calling for people like me to be ostracized and executed. They don't have the power to do that, but they have the ambition.

I didn't first get into firearms for the fun of it.


I think your emotions are getting in the way of your logic. While it is my opinion you are wrong on many issues I don’t think you are a stupid, infentile, simple minded or a shallow person.

This statement you have made is vile, stupid, and approaches being evil.

Certainly there are a few nuts/evil people in any group, but I know no Christians who support what you claim. Then to cheapen the sick demonic acts committed by the Taliban is beneath you.

You should apologize for your statement. I doubt you will but you should.

[TheNewbie]

If you gave the Westboro Baptists legal immunity, what do you think would happen?


They would be defeated by the decent part of society. The group is not big.


This is a terrible example and question.

[Dan_S]

They would be defeated by the decent part of society. The group is not big.


This is a terrible example and question.

No, actually, it is not.

They are a highly publicized bunch of...individuals, but they are not alone in somehow thinking that they have found ‘the’ problem, solution, and they’re acting on the behalf of a higher power.

When you give meddling madmen free reign, awful stuff ensues. When they have free reign, and are claiming to act on behalf of their preferred higher power (I choose this wording carefully, so as to encompass the disaster known as the October Revolution) unimaginable cruelty ensues.

[Rosco Benson]

This "non-binary" thing is just weird and problematic. When I worked at the jail, male inmates were searched by male officers and females by females. Seems like a good approach, but we had gay male and female officers in the ranks and, of course, incoming inmates of all types. We had incoming transvestite hookers who were convincingly female-looking enough that they were searched by female officers unless they identified themselves as cross-dressed males OR up until the female officer got to their genitals.

The transsexuals were a quandary and it all boiled down to if they were pre-op or post-op. All of this stuff was just to get them processed in. It was a whole additional level of goofiness to get them housed. Jails simply don't have enough cells for everyone to be in a single-person cell. Besides which, you can't let potentially suicidal ones have any privacy to harm themselves.

All of this was based, primarily, on whether the inmate had a penis or a vagina. I'm not sure how they handle it now, when how a person "identifies"....regardless of plumbing...is a factor. I'm glad I'm retired.

As to the 4473 change, I guess it's necessary if states are going to have it on driver's licenses, et cetera.

Rosco

[TheNewbie]

No, actually, it is not.

They are a highly publicized bunch of...individuals, but they are not alone in somehow thinking that they have found ‘the’ problem, solution, and they’re acting on the behalf of a higher power.

When you give meddling madmen free reign, awful stuff ensues. When they have free reign, and are claiming to act on behalf of their preferred higher power (I choose this wording carefully, so as to encompass the disaster known as the October Revolution) unimaginable cruelty ensues.


The crazed secular revolution ? In a totally different kind of society?

Your obsession in blinding you.

[Casual Friday]

I chose to protect vulnerable people from these monsters. Protesting has nothing to do with their form of pure hate and evil. Goodbye.

Yeah I'm sure that's it.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The WBC seem like a handful of lunatics that everyone agrees are lunatics and if they had legal immunity maybe they'd do lunatic things. But the same is true of most cults and that doesn't really make them a representation of anything.

Anyway I don't care if people want to have a non-binary designator, no skin off my back. I do totally disagree with the idea that gender is a spectrum; it's fairly obviously a bimodal bell curve. But if you fall in the overlapping section and have a bunch of concurrent factors that prevent you from identifying clearly as type 1 or type 2, I don't have any problem with someone who wants to say "I do not fit these categories". The categories aren't going anywhere; the bimodal bell curve is real and all the brainwashing in the world won't erase biological reality.

But biological reality includes some people in the overlap, and all the brainwashing in the world won't force the people in some parts of that overlap to identify strongly as type 1 or type 2. Nor should it.

Sure, in reality that's a tiny minority of people; sure, most of the people currently claiming to be non-binary actually fit perfectly into category A or category B. It's a fad, it'll pass. Did you guys never deal with LUGs in school? Lesbians Until Graduation? This was common when I was at university and had been for years prior. But within a few years, biology wins out. Most of the "can't even think straight/revolt against the patriarchy at any cost" brigade are married sometime in their 30s and doing really normal jobs. I don't get ramped up about any of it. It's the Tesla Fallacy all over again: just because the news is fixated on it doesn't mean that's what everyone is actually buying.

Relax, go to work, pay your mortgage, buy guns, let people who don't think they fit into an established gender category say so. The time to get bent out of shape is when they put men in women's prisons, or close down rape crisis centres because they don't let female-identified, outwardly male people in. That's stuff that actually happens, and personally I think it's worth being selective in your outrage because there's a huge difference between "this threatens my view of the world so it has to stop" and "this physically threatens vulnerable women so it has to stop" and as a society we need to be able to draw that line. You can't develop a system of laws if you can't distinguish jaywalking from murder, and we need to be able to develop laws, so we need to develop a nuanced reaction to all this stuff.

Ergo: right to punch ends at nose; no nose, no foul. This form seems to involve no noses, so mine remains in joint.

[blues]

https://www.shrinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/jump-the-shark.jpg

[trailrunner]

After discussion with my LGS, the reason for the change to the "Sex" field is to allow Form 4473 to be consistent with the (as of now) sixteen states that currently offer "non-binary" as a choice for driver's licenses, state ID, and/or birth certificates. The information on the Form 4473 is supposed to match the information on the ID uses by the FFL to verify the form. If the choice exists on a state ID, it should be an option to complete on the Form 4473.

I'm a DoD employee, and earlier this year I was voluntold to serve on a board to correct military records. About the only automatic, no-debate correction to a DD214 that we would make was if someone changed their gender. They had to document the change appropriately, which could consist of, for example, a combination of a court order, copy of a drivers license, or letter from a doctor. This change was important to the applicants because a) it is fundamental to their identity and b) they needed a consistent set of documents to claim VA or other benefits. The latter reason is undoubtedly why the change to Form 4473 is being considered.

[farscott]

I think your emotions are getting in the way of your logic. While it is my opinion you are wrong on many issues I don’t think you are a stupid, infentile, simple minded or a shallow person.

This statement you have made is vile, stupid, and approaches being evil.

Certainly there are a few nuts/evil people in any group, but I know no Christians who support what you claim. Then to cheapen the sick demonic acts committed by the Taliban is beneath you.

You should apologize for your statement. I doubt you will but you should.

Unfortunately for me, I do know Christians, pastors with congregations, who even today use the pulpit to suggest that anything but heterosexual relations is a threat to their religion and to the community and support violence against those who are not straight. One of my wife's cousins is such a man; something I find pathetic as he is a habitual DUI offender whose license has been suspended. He is more dangerous to the community than the behavior he espouses as satanic.

There is much intolerance in the world, on any part of the political spectrum.

[Borderland]

I'm a DoD employee, and earlier this year I was voluntold to serve on a board to correct military records. About the only automatic, no-debate correction to a DD214 that we would make was if someone changed their gender. They had to document the change appropriately, which could consist of, for example, a combination of a court order, copy of a drivers license, or letter from a doctor. This change was important to the applicants because a) it is fundamental to their identity and b) they needed a consistent set of documents to claim VA or other benefits. The latter reason is undoubtedly why the change to Form 4473 is being considered.

That's pretty much how most states handle it also. The military isn't going to change your gender just because you ask them to.

I don't know this for sure but I'm betting there are no non-binary people in the military. How exactly would they deal with that with community showers?

[TheNewbie]

Unfortunately for me, I do know Christians, pastors with congregations, who even today use the pulpit to suggest that anything but heterosexual relations is a threat to their religion and to the community and support violence against those who are not straight. One of my wife's cousins is such a man; something I find pathetic as he is a habitual DUI offender whose license has been suspended. He is more dangerous to the community than the behavior he espouses as satanic.

There is much intolerance in the world, on any part of the political spectrum.


Of course, and I stated that.

My concern is not by the outliers but by the main movement. People like him would be shut down quickly even by most conservative Christians.

[NEPAKevin]

We should all engage in self examination.



46549

[scjbash]

Of course, and I stated that.

My concern is not by the outliers but by the main movement. People like him would be shut down quickly even by most conservative Christians.

Eric Porterfield is a WV delegate who also runs a ministry. He ran for office in part because of his opposition to a law banning conversion therapy. Since being elected he's referred to the LGBT community as terrorists, equated them to the KKK, and said on live TV that he'd drown his children if they were gay. He's quite popular with conservative Christians and I'll be surprised if he's not reelected.

[HCM]

Eric Porterfield is a WV delegate who also runs a ministry. He ran for office in part because of his opposition to a law banning conversion therapy. Since being elected he's referred to the LGBT community as terrorists, equated them to the KKK, and said on live TV that he'd drown his children if they were gay. He's quite popular with conservative Christians and I'll be surprised if he's not reelected.

There is a portion of the LGBTQ community that Want to force their views on everyone else by any means necessary. They are the equivalent of open carry activists, and like open carry activists They generate the exact opposite of the reaction they are looking for and don’t do their group any favors.

[scjbash]

There is a portion of the LGBTQ community that Want to force their views on everyone else by any means necessary. They are the equivalent of open carry activists, and like open carry activists They generate the exact opposite of the reaction they are looking for and don’t do their group any favors.

Absolutely, but clowns like Porterfield aren't saying "a portion of the LGBT community". They are militantly bigoted against all of them. The fact that this guy is popular after saying he'd drown his own children for being gay says plenty about a large segment of the population.

[HCM]

Absolutely, but clowns like Porterfield aren't saying "a portion of the LGBT community". They are militantly bigoted against all of them. The fact that this guy is popular after saying he'd drown his own children for being gay says plenty about a large segment of the population.

A Nigerian wants told me the best lies are built around the core of truth. Those militants provide the core for his lies. As such they are complicit. They literally create the heat they claim to be fighting where it did not exist before.

[Totem Polar]

Re: the Phelps followers, the 1A already gives them power to assemble and run their suck. I’ve personally seen what happens when it’s at the funeral of fallen soldiers and on the campus of catholic universities; in the former case *scores* of bikers turn out to make sure nobody in the funeral party are aware of their presence beyond academically, and when 4-6 of them show up at a university, *hundreds* of students turn out in countervailing protest. I have no doubt that if a few phat phelps’s were to somehow be given free reign for enacting violence, they’d lose. As in, grease spot where they once stood lose.

As to the 4473, I suppose it depends how much one respects the paper and process. In today’s USA, if one wants to procure a gun (legally), then one must play the game. If another box allows more to play, great. I do find it interesting that we got another gender box before we got a “multi-racial" or "bi-racial" box, just considering the numbers. For decades, I’ve just shrugged, and checked the whitey box, because I have my own jars of mayonnaise and alternative peanut butter in the fridge, and I can’t dance for shit. That, and at +/- 50 percent, whitey is probably the majority shareholder of my genetics. It’s not terribly accurate, but I DGAF, because it’s just playing the game, and I don’t especially respect the form; nor do I respect the state version that is probably close to a 1 million backlog at this point.

Moving to the first state to go shall issue in the 60s because you’re intermarried? That’s not a game. A piece of paper that also asks (and ostensibly expects) users to self-incriminate on dope smoking in today’s USA? More legit things to get worked up about. JMO, obviously.

[willie]

I think your emotions are getting in the way of your logic. While it is my opinion you are wrong on many issues I don’t think you are a stupid, infentile, simple minded or a shallow person.

This statement you have made is vile, stupid, and approaches being evil.

Certainly there are a few nuts/evil people in any group, but I know no Christians who support what you claim. Then to cheapen the sick demonic acts committed by the Taliban is beneath you.

You should apologize for your statement. I doubt you will but you should.

I have personal knowledge of Christians bombing churches. Twice I have heard the explosions. I am related to one who got caught. He served no time and today sings in the church. In my youth I knew two men who participated in lynchings, and today I can show you one of the trees and take you to a deep well where one body was thrown. All were God fearing Christians who considered themselves patriots. I could write more.

If I were a Jew, I would have a belt fed machine gun. Stephanie owes no apologies. Anyway it may not be kosher for one forum member to state that another should apologize. I mean no disrespect by saying this.

[Stephanie B]

Funny story!


Yes, Af-ri-can-A-mer-i-can is not only an over-long descriptive category, but in many cases simply an inaccurate one.

How did plain old simple "black" and "white" become so politically incorrect in the first place?

Everyone understood that "white" people were those whose skin color actually ran a continuum of shades from palest pinkish-white to moderately dark yellowish-brown, and that "black" people had skin colors ranging from palest tan to inky-blue-black.
Neither of the simple "color" terms was innately insulting or derogatory, even if less than accurate.

I guess using skin color as a descriptive term for designating groups of people must have somehow seemed offensive or overly simplistic to our modern determiners of social propriety (after all, no provision was included for skin color descriptors of Asian or Hispanic people!), but "African American" and "Caucasian" are neither better nor more accurate than ol' "black" and "white".

Disclaimer: By modern standards, I'm an old curmudgeon ("Boomer") with an old curmudgeon's perspective on history, who probably despises nearly any example of "political correctness" you could name.
:cool:

Remember the "one drop rule"?

[TheNewbie]

I have personal knowledge of Christians bombing churches. Twice I have heard the explosions. I am related to one who got caught. He served no time and today sings in the church. In my youth I knew two men who participated in lynchings, and today I can show you one of the trees and take you to a deep well where one body was thrown. All were God fearing Christians who considered themselves patriots. I could write more.

If I were a Jew, I would have a belt fed machine gun. Stephanie owes no apologies. Anyway it may not be kosher for one forum member to state that another should apologize. I mean no disrespect by saying this.

She most certainly does. It’s not the secular world that produced a tolerant society and it is Christians who are the Jews best friend.

[SAWBONES]

Remember the "one drop rule"?

No.
Is it a Southern thing?

I do know about how Southern folks assigned fractional "black blood" amounts to people of "mixed race", and my (Southern) wife's family used to tease her about being an "octoroon" because her skin color is a little tawny...
:o

[Maple Syrup Actual]

A Nigerian wants told me the best lies are built around the core of truth. Those militants provide the core for his lies. As such they are complicit. They literally create the heat they claim to be fighting where it did not exist before.

If that's the way we're all going to view everything, then all movements, ideologies, groups, and probably individuals are guilty and off limits. I don't discount capitalism just because there is some percentage of advocates for it who are wacko.

In particular, considering homosexuality is biological, you can't expect everyone in "the movement" to adhere to a certain set of principles. That would be like saying "we can't take everyone born in the first week of January seriously as long as you continue to tolerate lunatics within your group."

I don't expect to be held responsible for the actions of any straight dude but me and I fundamentally reject the idea that anyone should try to hold me responsible for the actions of others whose connection to me is race, gender, or anything else involuntary.

I presume it's the same for homos... I admit I have never asked any of my gay friends whether they are operating with some kind of hive mind but I'm pretty sure they're not.

[JohnO]

If they make sex/gender irrelevant by introducing an unlimited possibilities option why bother asking?

[HCM]

If that's the way we're all going to view everything, then all movements, ideologies, groups, and probably individuals are guilty and off limits. I don't discount capitalism just because there is some percentage of advocates for it who are wacko.

In particular, considering homosexuality is biological, you can't expect everyone in "the movement" to adhere to a certain set of principles. That would be like saying "we can't take everyone born in the first week of January seriously as long as you continue to tolerate lunatics within your group."

I don't expect to be held responsible for the actions of any straight dude but me and I fundamentally reject the idea that anyone should try to hold me responsible for the actions of others whose connection to me is race, gender, or anything else involuntary.

I presume it's the same for homos... I admit I have never asked any of my gay friends whether they are operating with some kind of hive mind but I'm pretty sure they're not.

You mean homosexuality MAY be biological. Facts not in evidence.

The fact is there are a percentage of LGBTQ people who are assholes and go out of their way to fuck with people and impose their views on others. Are all LGBTQ people like that? No, but some are and there are enough of them that the West Virginia pastors impression of them has an actual basis. He is just applying that basis with too broad a brush.

But of course he’s not part of a group that is fashionable among social progressives So I guess his point of view doesn’t matter.
.

[scjbash]

No, but some are and there are enough of them that the West Virginia pastors impression of them has an actual basis. He is just applying that basis with too broad a brush.

But of course he’s not part of a group that is fashionable among social progressives So I guess his point of view doesn’t matter.
.

I don't think think his opinion grew out of a small percentage of gay people being assholes. It's because he's a bigot from an area with a not so small number of them. They are ignorant, raised by bigots who were raised by bigots, all excused because "the Bible says". These people could not own a TV, not have the internet, and never once have exposure to the assholes you're talking about, and they would still think like this. Shit like saying they'd kill their kids for being gay, or at best throw them out and disown them, is far from unusual. I've heard it countless times, and often from otherwise warm and loving people. It's because it's how they were raised and what they've always been around.

[baddean]

I can't believe I'm replying to this thread. I can't believe it's lasted this long.
It's been said, "who gives a shit?"
I'm thankful for the ignore button.
Have at it newb I won't see any more of it.
Stephanie B, Stay the course.

[willie]

I said I would not return to this thread, but here I am. My opinion is that we can not make valid generalizations about what group has more assholes than another. For example, the two most competent school administrators that I knew were gay. The gay part is a coincidence without cause and effect relationship. But I could erroneously generalize. I do think that saying this is a valid assumption: that assholes are numerous and most likely are evenly distributed among groups. We tend to view others negatively when we disagree with them. I know more assholes among the white, Christian, conservative group because that is the pigeon hole where I have spent my life. I hesitate to say that Christians are the Jews' best friends. I would say that Christians are their own best friends. My irreverent father said that there were two types of preachers, pussy preachers and chicken pie preachers. So whom will they protect?

[Stephanie B]

If the Orange Fuhrer and the so called "cHrIsTiAn tAlIbAn" are who you say they are, you would have already been bound and tossed from a building. You're smarter than this Stephanie and lumping all of a large group of people together because of a tiny percentage is beneath you. I expect it from Rabid Butterfly but not you.

We still have the rule of law in this country (though not always) and those who would want to do such things are constrained by it. But I have no illusions about what some people would try to do if they had the opportunity.

You may not like Ms. Butterfly; you are free to block her and me if you desire. But deliberately mangling another forum member's handle is a pretty foul blow.

[Caballoflaco]

46567

[Stephanie B]

I think your emotions are getting in the way of your logic. While it is my opinion you are wrong on many issues I don’t think you are a stupid, infentile, simple minded or a shallow person.

This statement you have made is vile, stupid, and approaches being evil.

Certainly there are a few nuts/evil people in any group, but I know no Christians who support what you claim. Then to cheapen the sick demonic acts committed by the Taliban is beneath you.

You should apologize for your statement. I doubt you will but you should.
Not going to happen. My statement that "I didn't first get into firearms for the fun of it." is not rhetorical hyperbole.

It is a statement of fact.

[Stephanie B]

it is Christians who are the Jews best friend.

My grandparents' generation would have disagreed with you.

One of my now long-dead great aunts told me: "When it is time for you to marry, better you bring home a Schwartza than a Catholic."

(Where she was from (Eastern Europe), the only Christians around were Catholics.)

[Casual Friday]

We still have the rule of law in this country (though not always) and those who would want to do such things are constrained by it. But I have no illusions about what some people would try to do if they had the opportunity.

You may not like Ms. Butterfly; you are free to block her and me if you desire. But deliberately mangling another forum member's handle is a pretty foul blow.

It wasn't deliberate, but it's not nearly as foul as your anti Christian rhetoric. If someone spoke of Jews the way you speak of Christians every chance you get, you'd lose your shit.

[Medusa]

Not going to happen. My statement that "I didn't first get into firearms for the fun of it." is not rhetorical hyperbole.

It is a statement of fact.

This goes for me as well, and the people by whom I’ve been attacked have been, without exception, people who claimed to be followers of the religion of love. While I know that there are no true Scotsmen, I’ve seen what I’ve seen.

[TheNewbie]

My grandparents' generation would have disagreed with you.

One of my now long-dead great aunts told me: "When it is time for you to marry, better you bring home a Schwartza than a Catholic."

(Where she was from (Eastern Europe), the only Christians around were Catholics.)


My fault for not being more specific.

American Christians are the Jews best friend. Just as the Jews are Christians best friend.

Everything is better in America.

[blues]

(Where she was from (Eastern Europe), the only Christians around were Catholics.)

Pogroms (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/pogroms) were carried out by various groups...sectarian as well as state sanctioned.

[Borderland]

My fault for not being more specific.

American Christians are the Jews best friend. Just as the Jews are Christians best friend.

Everything is better in America.


In America you'll get food to eat
Won't have to run through the jungle
And scuff up your feet
You'll just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day
It's great to be an American

Ain't no lions or tigers ain't no mamba snake
Just the sweet watermelon and the buckwheat cake
Everybody is as happy as a man can be
Climb aboard little wog sail away with me

R. Newman

[Bigghoss]

Happy new year PF...

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/sharonherald.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/f8/bf8fd690-dc26-58bc-bd9b-0c62436c437a/5aa22d7456db5.image.jpg?resize=800%2C561

[AKDoug]

As to the 4473, I suppose it depends how much one respects the paper and process. In today’s USA, if one wants to procure a gun (legally), then one must play the game. If another box allows more to play, great. I do find it interesting that we got another gender box before we got a “multi-racial" or "bi-racial" box, just considering the numbers. For decades, I’ve just shrugged, and checked the whitey box, because I have my own jars of mayonnaise and alternative peanut butter in the fridge, and I can’t dance for shit. That, and at +/- 50 percent, whitey is probably the majority shareholder of my genetics. It’s not terribly accurate, but I DGAF, because it’s just playing the game, and I don’t especially respect the form; nor do I respect the state version that is probably close to a 1 million backlog at this point.

You can check more than one box in 10b. In fact, I have one repeat customer that checks them all. Who am I to argue... he's kinda brownish. It hasn't stopped him from getting proceeds every single time. I'm still offended they even ask, but yeah, you've got to play the game.



In particular, considering homosexuality is biological, you can't expect everyone in "the movement" to adhere to a certain set of principles. That would be like saying "we can't take everyone born in the first week of January seriously as long as you continue to tolerate lunatics within your group."

I don't expect to be held responsible for the actions of any straight dude but me and I fundamentally reject the idea that anyone should try to hold me responsible for the actions of others whose connection to me is race, gender, or anything else involuntary.

I presume it's the same for homos... I admit I have never asked any of my gay friends whether they are operating with some kind of hive mind but I'm pretty sure they're not.

I have two openly gay uncles. The older one believes it's the result of sexual abuse he suffered as a child. The younger one is convinced it's biological. They are political opposites as well. I could go on and on.. but there isn't much they agree on.

[Totem Polar]

You can check more than one box in 10b. In fact, I have one repeat customer...

Learning has occurred.

:)

[Dan_S]

My fault for not being more specific.

American Christians are the Jews best friend. Just as the Jews are Christians best friend.






To say such is, frankly, to be willfully ignorant, of history. Neither side would agree with you, but it’s certainly...stylish...to try to walk that line, claiming there’s no bad blood there, not over a thousand years of history that you’re just...winging right out the window because it doesn’t match your belief.

[Greg]

Happy new year PF...

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/sharonherald.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/f8/bf8fd690-dc26-58bc-bd9b-0c62436c437a/5aa22d7456db5.image.jpg?resize=800%2C561

That dumpster was filled with soiled adult diapers.

[blues]

That dumpster was filled with soiled adult diapers.

Well, I guess that Depends. (Had to start off the new year with a shitty pun.)

[TheNewbie]

To say such is, frankly, to be willfully ignorant, of history. Neither side would agree with you, but it’s certainly...stylish...to try to walk that line, claiming there’s no bad blood there, not over a thousand years of history that you’re just...winging right out the window because it doesn’t match your belief.


No bad blood, no history? Who said that ?

[Dan_S]

No bad blood, no history? Who said that ?


You said, that American Christians are the Jews best friend. When did that start?

And I don’t mean...when did it become stylish for certain factions to give lip service to ‘praying for Israel’ or whatever.

[blues]

You said, that American Christians are the Jews best friend. When did that start?

And I don’t mean...when did it become stylish for certain factions to give lip service to ‘praying for Israel’ or whatever.


I think it was with the national "Take A Jew To Work" day in 1947. Honestly, as someone with the blood of both sides coursing through his veins, hasn't this topic been beaten to death enough yet?

[TheNewbie]

You said, that American Christians are the Jews best friend. When did that start?

And I don’t mean...when did it become stylish for certain factions to give lip service to ‘praying for Israel’ or whatever.


Many of the founders saw us as a second Israel. It’s been a thing for a long time.

Who is the most pro Israel group (non-Jewish) in the world outside of Israel?


This apparently haven’t been beaten to death. It goes beyond blood. The issue is one of moral truth, and as long as lies are told calling good bad and bad good, more suffering will occur.

[blues]

Well, I don't know who the Jew's best friend is but I do know it's not this guy...

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/rockland-county-synagogue-stabbing-1.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1




You think a box on the ATF form might help identify guys like him?

X Are you now or have you ever been a bigot, racist, or mass murderer?



Thought not.

[HCM]

Well, I don't know who the Jew's best friend is but I do know it's not this guy...

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/rockland-county-synagogue-stabbing-1.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1




You think a box on the ATF form might help identify guys like him?

X Are you now or have you ever been a bigot, racist, or mass murderer?



Thought not.

According to him, HE’S the real Jew, and you and your people are “devilish imposters.”

[blues]

According to him, HE’S the real Jew, and you and your people are “devilish imposters.”

Well, he'd be right about me if I pretended to be one other than through blood. I suppose my Italian (Catholic) blood relations could claim me for their side.

Personally, I don't practice any organized religion. I find them too divisive.

[Stephanie B]

Well, I don't know who the Jew's best friend is but I do know it's not this guy...

Or these guys:

46596

[Dan_S]

I think it was with the national "Take A Jew To Work" day in 1947. Honestly, as someone with the blood of both sides coursing through his veins, hasn't this topic been beaten to death enough yet?

Yes, yes it has. The problem is, someone is *wrong* on the internet, and I can’t let that go.




In regards to the *other* post....ah yes, good old replacement theology, now coming out of the woodwork as proof of how the ‘founding fathers’ loved Jews? That’s certainly an...interesting argument. I give up.

[Borderland]

Yes, yes it has. The problem is, someone is *wrong* on the internet, and I can’t let that go.


Don't lose any sleep over it. I don't.

[TheNewbie]

Yes, yes it has. The problem is, someone is *wrong* on the internet, and I can’t let that go.




In regards to the *other* post....ah yes, good old replacement theology, now coming out of the woodwork as proof of how the ‘founding fathers’ loved Jews? That’s certainly an...interesting argument. I give up.


You give up because you lie and make false accusations. That is disgusting and pathetic.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/george-washingtons-letter-to-newport/

[Dan_S]

You give up because you lie and make false accusations. That is disgusting and pathetic.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/george-washingtons-letter-to-newport/


Strong words for someone such as yourself...


I can assure you, that you don’t know half of what you think you know, and would be well advised to make an attempt at understanding how people outside your little bubble perceive the world.


And with that, I’m done. If you aren’t able to consider for a moment that you don’t know everything, don’t know where I’m coming from, and why you might want to *learn* rather than dismiss...enjoy your life.

[Zincwarrior]

My 160# ass identifies as the Incredible Hulk. How dare you tell me I'm not.

In all seriousness, I just don't care. I've taken classes and shot with and against several women, lesbians, and gay men who were better shooters than me (admittedly, that's not a high bar to hurdle). My uncle is 100% pro-gun, pretty much in line with what most of this forum would be on board with. And he's not "maybe he's gay,"...he's full on heeeey gay.

You want to shoot? Let's shoot. I'm cool with everybody until you tell me what I can't do. Why the ATF cares though, I don't really know.

Why is it even a question?

Frankly the form should be: name, SS#, DOB, DL or ID# (the new starred one now in effect) and sign here. Everything else should be automatic.
Next year it should just be a picture and signature. visual ID screening should do the rest.

[Zincwarrior]

Double Dog Dare! When filling out the 4473, ask if non-binary means occasionally.

Hand write in...Married. :cool:

[Zincwarrior]

Of course, and I stated that.

My concern is not by the outliers but by the main movement. People like him would be shut down quickly even by most conservative Christians.

Anyone who samples comments from right wing or left wing sites knows those "outliers" are less uncommon than we would like.

But what do I know, I keep telling everyone that cat lovers are hollow inside and have no souls, but only other wiener dog owners believe me. *

*Wiener dogs. Protecting us from the cat people menace since 2019.

[Zincwarrior]

We still have the rule of law in this country (though not always) and those who would want to do such things are constrained by it. But I have no illusions about what some people would try to do if they had the opportunity.

You may not like Ms. Butterfly; you are free to block her and me if you desire. But deliberately mangling another forum member's handle is a pretty foul blow.

Despite the terrible mods, this is a good site for differing opinions. Keep the faith.*

*One day you will see the error of your cat avatar ways and embrace the greater glory of nature's perfect predator:
https://teenavi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Myth190718m82.jpg

[Stephanie B]

Despite the terrible mods, this is a good site for differing opinions. Keep the faith.*

*One day you will see the error of your cat avatar ways and embrace the greater glory of nature's perfect predator:
https://teenavi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Myth190718m82.jpg

Despite the heresy, that is one cute puppy.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

You can check more than one box in 10b. In fact, I have one repeat customer that checks them all. Who am I to argue... he's kinda brownish. It hasn't stopped him from getting proceeds every single time. I'm still offended they even ask, but yeah, you've got to play the game.

My dad's family is Native American, Hispanic, and English. My mom's is Filipino, German, and Chinese. I always get a kick out of checking a whole buncha boxes in that section of the 4473.