Mo. sheriff investigates death of man in gun class

[SouthNarc]

Anybody know anything about this event?



http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...7a4a78c22.html


SPRINGFIELD, Mo. • A southern Missouri sheriff and several weapons experts are examining the safety of classes required to obtain a concealed weapons permit after the accidental shooting death of a man during the class.

Glenn Seymour, 63, accidentally shot himself in the chest earlier this month in Douglas County while trying an advanced firing technique with a weapon he wasn't familiar with using.

"I think we're looking at an issue of the course of fire he was teaching," Douglas County Sheriff Chris Degase told the Springfield News-Leader. "Is it consistent with where these folks were in their training? ... In a concealed carry class, you're dealing with a lot of people who have little to no training."

The Springfield News-Leader reported that Seymour was right-handed, but was practicing drawing a semiautomatic 9 mm handgun with his left hand, taking the safety off and shooting.

Paul Richard Williams, who was teaching the class, called Seymour's death a "tragic accident."

The skill Seymour was learning when he died is not required to get a concealed weapons permit in Missouri. The state calls for instructors to cover such topics as basic marksmanship and safe storage of firearms at home during the eight-hour class.

County sheriffs oversee concealed carry training in Missouri, approving lesson plans and individuals instructors.

Degase stressed that while Seymour's death was accidental, he is reviewing whether Williams should continue teaching such courses. Degase said a previous sheriff approved Williams as an instructor.

Peggy Siler, the co-owner of Ozark Shooters Sports Complex in Walnut Shade, said she had never heard of the technique Williams was teaching being used in a class to get a concealed weapons permit.

Dan Smith, a firearms instructor in the St. Louis area, said the skill Seymour was learning when he died is only found at "very, very advanced levels of training.

"That's not what the Missouri conceal carry class is about," Smith said.

[Kyle Reese]

I heard about this, and was wondering how this man happened to shoot himself in the chest.

Did he:

Drop the weapon and snatch for it in mid air?

Fumble a transition somehow and shoot himself?

Go to "position SUL", and inadvertantly fire the weapon into his chest?

Not alot of details in the story.

A very tragic story. RIP.

[TCinVA]

If the previous news story I read was accurate, he borrowed a semi-auto pistol from a friend to take the class. At some point during the class he was shooting with his weak hand (not sure if it was a qual requirement or not) and during an attempt to work the weapon's safety managed to somehow get the muzzle pointed at himself and the trigger pulled.

The story above outlines the same facts.

I, too, have no idea how the process of taking the safety off could have resulted in a muzzle aimed at his chest. Press stories like these are often written by people with absolutely no clue about the facts and no ability to comprehend important technical details...so I doubt we'll see important details necessary to figure out just what in blue hell happened.

Weaponus-catchitus-bangus-in-chestus would be a good bet, though.

[jslaker]

Your link got truncated. Here's the full URL for anybody that wants it:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_e76b3bd6-4d0c-11e0-9640-0017a4a78c22.html

I'm curious what "advanced technique" would require him to end up with a loaded weapon pointed at his chest muzzle-first.

[David]

At some point during the class he was shooting with his weak hand (not sure if it was a qual requirement or not) and during an attempt to work the weapon's safety managed to somehow get the muzzle pointed at himself and the trigger pulled.

Nope, the CCW course here doesn't require any weak-hand shooting. Just basic marksmanship skill at 7 and 15 yards.

[TCinVA]

I just noticed the story Southnarc posted says he was practicing drawing and firing the pistol weak-handed. I hadn't seen that little tidbit before.

Imagine a relative newbie trying to draw a pistol with their weak hand to present it on target...especially one who had not yet mastered the "finger off trigger until indexed on target" bit of the draw.

Seems more logical now.

[Savage Hands]

Another member of this forum may choose to chime in as this experience was his, but a recent CA CCW class had an instructor snatch a possibly loaded (Treat them all as they are though right???) firearm out of a female students hand while she was finishing firing a string to show her the importance of weapon retention. :confused:

[JodyH]

Another member of this forum may choose to chime in as this experience was his, but a recent CA CCW class had an instructor snatch a possibly loaded (Treat them all as they are though right???) firearm out of a female students hand while she was finishing firing a string to show her the importance of weapon retention. :confused:
My "plan B" if my gun is taken from me is to cut it out of their hand with my Spyderco.
I wonder how that instructor would like picking his severed fingers up off the floor?

[Savage Hands]

My "plan B" if my gun is taken from me is to cut it out of their hand with my Spyderco.
I wonder how that instructor would like picking his severed fingers up off the floor?


:D

[Kyle Reese]

I think that the need for positive weapon retention could be articulated verbally and demonstrated appropriately with a Blue Gun without asking Darwin to intervene......


Another member of this forum may choose to chime in as this experience was his, but a recent CA CCW class had an instructor snatch a possibly loaded (Treat them all as they are though right???) firearm out of a female students hand while she was finishing firing a string to show her the importance of weapon retention. :confused:

[Savage Hands]

I agree...

[David]

I think that the need for positive weapon retention could be articulated verbally and demonstrated appropriately with a Blue Gun without asking Darwin to intervene......

Yeah but that would make way too much sense and it wouldn't look "shockingly tacticool" as the instructor displays his awe-inspiring fu manoeuvrings.

[Kyle Reese]

If I was the instructor in the aforementioned class, I'd hate to have to explain my "tacti-cool" actions to _________ (police, NOK of person in class injured or killed as a result of negligence, attorneys, etc) if they resulted in property damage, bodily harm or death.

Just not worth it when something like weapons retention can be safely taught using training aids.

Just my very humble 2 cents.





Yeah but that would make way too much sense and it wouldn't look "shockingly tacticool" as the instructor displays his awe-inspiring fu manoeuvrings.

[phil_in_cs]

I think that the need for positive weapon retention could be articulated verbally and demonstrated appropriately with a Blue Gun without asking Darwin to intervene......

He was the only one in the room professional enough to demonstrate that.

[gringop]

Someone posted this on M4Carbine.net. A recreation of the event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AMMF7WaB8

Gringop

[jslaker]

Someone posted this on M4Carbine.net. A recreation of the event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AMMF7WaB8

Gringop

Thanks for posting that. Makes it clear exactly what went wrong.

I can't imagine who thought drilling that was a good idea.

[MTechnik]

Someone posted this on M4Carbine.net. A recreation of the event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AMMF7WaB8

Gringop

I'm at work, but did the video say the instructor demo'd that technique? Or did the guy say "hey, i know how to do this!"

and thank god nobody was behind him.

[mc1911]

I've not practiced a weak-hand draw so I can't speak from experience, but I've seen video of weak-hand draws that then place the pistol between the knees, using the knees as a clamp to allow the shooter to then rotate his hand to gain a proper grip. In that example, the muzzle was pointed at the ground, which seems to be a much safer method. I would hazard the guess that the technique practiced in this tragic incident might be considered outdated. If not, it should be now.

[Pistol Shooter]

Yeah but that would make way too much sense and it wouldn't look "shockingly tacticool" as the instructor displays his awe-inspiring fu manoeuvrings.

Well said.

The last time I checked a blue gun costs about $30.00. :(

This was just a needless tragedy. Very sad.