Multiple people shot at White Settlement, Texas church

[HCM]

https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/nation-world/reports-a-shooting-at-a-texas-church-was-caught-on-live-stream/287-d3e39e8c-a6e4-4c9d-9be0-3e9d792a016d

Multiple people shot at White Settlement, Texas church

Developing situation. Subject with a shotgun shot multiple people, apparently the shooting was captured on the live stream of the church service. Shooter was taken out by an armed member of the congregation. Don’t know if it was a random person or part of a church security team. Details still developing

[Kyle Reese]

“Local media are reporting that a witness said the incident happened during communion, and that the gunman reportedly had a shotgun and was taken down by another armed church member.”

Reason 9383992 to carry wherever you can lawfully do so.



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[Guinnessman]

Was this church a gun free zone? How in the hell do we have a congregation of unarmed people, in what I consider a higher threat environment.

Why is the shooter still breathing? Why are Americans asleep at the wheel?

[Caballoflaco]

Was this church a gun free zone? How in the hell do we have a congregation of unarmed people, in what I consider a higher threat environment.

Why is the shooter still breathing? Why are Americans asleep at the wheel?

The reports are saying the the gunman was taken out by an armed member of the congregation. Since in these situations the bad guys get a vote and have the element of surprise people will more than likely be shot before someone can effectively respond. Reaction time is a thing.

[Duelist]

Was this church a gun free zone? How in the hell do we have a congregation of unarmed people, in what I consider a higher threat environment.

Why is the shooter still breathing? Why are Americans asleep at the wheel?

The report linked says the shooter was taken down by an armed church member, and also stated the critically wounded transported to the hospital did not include the shooter.

I don’t want to make an assumption, but that does not read to me that it was a gun-free zone, nor that the shooter is likely still available for prosecution.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

TX churches are not gun free unless specific conforming signage is posted. Many of them in TX have security teams. I have a good friend involved in such. One problem is getting the 'security team' up to some standards and train. Not that I discourage carry.

[Casual Friday]

Was this church a gun free zone? How in the hell do we have a congregation of unarmed people, in what I consider a higher threat environment.

Why is the shooter still breathing? Why are Americans asleep at the wheel?

Didn't click the link did ya?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

CNN said the defender was a retired Federal agent. However, too early to know for real.

[Joe in PNG]

The 48 hour rule is in effect- most of what we'll hear and read in the next two days will be either incomplete, over exaggerated, under detailed, or just plain made up.

[Eyesquared]

There is video of the shooting online. The shooter gets off 3 rounds with his shotgun before he is dropped hard (about 4-6 seconds between him initially producing the weapon and pointing it at someone and him being dropped). Many people were carrying handguns but the fight was over before most of them could produce a weapon.

[TC215]

https://i.imgur.com/mnuZSpW.jpg

[Amp]

https://streamable.com/m8sly

[Totem Polar]

Solid work by modified weaver guy. As we all know, it’s entirely possible to miss a moving target at that distance.

[Chemsoldier]

Is it me or does the guy on the left appear to be wearing duty style gear on his belt? It looks like a right handed shooter and what appears to be two items on the right side of his belt. Figure one is a holster.

Private security of some sort? Maybe an off duty making extra money?

[Guinnessman]

Didn't click the link did ya?

Guilty as charged sir.

Good on the armed member of the church! It’s good to see multiple firearms out in the video.

[5pins]

Damn, look at all the guns that got pulled out from the people in the congregation!

[5pins]

Looking at the video on my phone it looks like the first person shot was pulling a gun out to confront him.

[Totem Polar]

Looking at the video on my phone it looks like the first person shot was pulling a gun out to confront him.

That is so sad. You can see the guy trying to come to grips with what’s going on at first, then drawing *really* slowly (ability, not intent), while not moving. Heartbreaking, really.

You can also see a bunch of pre-assault indicators; long coat, odd gait, etc. The first guy saw that stuff, but didn’t quite know what to make of it for a split second. JMO, but that was hard to watch.

[Guinnessman]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-in-critical-condition-after-reported-shooting-at-church-in-white-settlement/

The shooter took a dirt nap.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

News says the good guy shooter is a retired federal agent, as said before. Enlarging the image, he has things on his belt. The guy who attempts to respond has the gun way back and looks like he has to clear a jacket and a covering shirt - that isn't fast. It is so sad to watch.

Some kind of pistol grip or Shockwave type gun, looks like.

[blues]

Good work by the fine gentleman to put an end to the threat. Glad none of the other congregants started loosing rounds willy-nilly.

[RoyGBiv]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/12/29/2-dead-1-in-critical-condition-after-reported-shooting-at-church-in-white-settlement/

The shooter took a dirt nap.

Those of us who live in the real world know this is the way it should be.
There will always be evil, and good people should always possess the means to extinguish it.

[Caballoflaco]

There was a lot of really terrible gun handling going on after the fact. A lot of people got guns pointed at them that didn’t need to. There was also a guy trying to hold a gun up under his arm while while using his cell phone.

Good work by the guy that made a pretty long headshot on a moving target, and a sad situation all around.

[JodyH]

There was a lot of really terrible gun handling going on after the fact. A lot of people got guns pointed at them that didn’t need to. There was also a guy trying to hold a gun up under his arm while while using his cell phone.

Untrained and semi-trained people have terrible gun handling skills.
Watch any of hundreds of LE, Mil and civilian shooting videos on the Internet and you'll see that everybody gets muzzled and it's a miracle there aren't more ND's.
Rarely does someone exhibit solid gun handling, and if they do you're not surprised because the video already showed them taking care of business in a solid way as well.

[Sero Sed Serio]

That is so sad. You can see the guy trying to come to grips with what’s going on at first, then drawing *really* slowly (ability, not intent), while not moving. Heartbreaking, really.

Heartbreaking, but it seemed like he diverted the shooter's attention long enough for others to get into the fight--my gut feeling is that he saved several lives.

I couldn't tell, but it sounds like someone says "drop it" just before the first shot. It also seemed like the shooter may have been covering the guy closer to him before the verbal challenge, which seems to have triggered the first shot more than the drawing motion did. Maybe he drew fire away from the unarmed target?


Solid work by modified weaver guy. As we all know, it’s entirely possible to miss a moving target at that distance.

Hell of a shot, and great post-shooting demeanor: moving and thinking while others were still processing, not sweeping no-shoots, covering the threat, securing the weapon, and what seemed to be communication with other parishioners. With the other responders there was a definite cross-fire and some other issues, but overall a good response from the crowd and good to see so many members armed and willing to fight.


CNN said the defender was a retired Federal agent. However, too early to know for real.

In the about 30 minutes since I learned of this it went from CNN's lead story (of course mixed in with other "gun violence" headlines) to disappearing completely from their site with the headline about a hot spot in the Pacific Ocean, but not shocked that while it was up they would do whatever they could to avoid portraying the guy who stopped the fight as an armed civilian. But no AR and civilian guns preventing a massacre? Nothing to see here...

Also streamable has already pulled the video...

[JodyH]

Also streamable has already pulled the video...
Won't get pulled from here (NSFW website!): https://leakreality.com/video/105990/cctv-of-church-shooting-in-white-settlement-texas

[Totem Polar]

Heartbreaking, but it seemed like he diverted the shooter's attention long enough for others to get into the fight--my gut feeling is that he saved several lives.

Absolutely, at his own expense.



In the about 30 minutes since I learned of this it went from CNN's lead story (of course mixed in with other "gun violence" headlines) to disappearing completely from their site with the headline about a hot spot in the Pacific Ocean, but not shocked that while it was up they would do whatever they could to avoid portraying the guy who stopped the fight as an armed civilian. But no AR and civilian guns preventing a massacre? Nothing to see here...

Also streamable has already pulled the video...

Doesn’t fit the agenda of the folks who own the media—and I’m not just talking ‘narrative," here, I’m talking permanent elite class stuff. Guys who don’t mind getting their own cognitive hands dirty will always be able to drop into internet crawlspaces, like Jody’s link, and have a look around but this will vaporize from mainstream media, because it doesn’t meet a need. JMO.

Man, I’m full of opinions today... I freely admit that I got up on the wrong side of the bed.

[El Cid]

Won't get pulled from here (NSFW website!): https://leakreality.com/video/105990/cctv-of-church-shooting-in-white-settlement-texas

They picked a bad spot for their watermark. Covers the gentleman who saved the day.

[JohnO]

Accuracy Matters!

[Clay1]

I also think that shot was not a given. It 's one thing to shoot at a cardboard target after several dry fire iterations, and by your 4th stage of the match you start to settle in; it's something else with lead flying around and people's life's are at stake. I'm glad that someone with a real skill set was able to end the threat.

[blues]

I also think that shot was not a given.

Absolutely not. The man is a stud, retired or not.

[Dismas316]

John at active self protection already has a video up on this shooting.

https://youtu.be/s5NzuGSkL2E

[Kyle Reese]

Absolutely not. The man is a stud, retired or not.

Agreed. Low probability shots are a thing, and this guy appears to have put in the requisite time on the range to make one.


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[rd62]

Agreed. Low probability shots are a thing, and this guy appears to have put in the requisite time on the range to make one.


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I thought the same. That was a hell of a shot!

I freely admit that exceeds my current capabilities on demand.

[10mmfanboy]

This is why I have been spending a great deal of time the last few years on long distance accuracy with a handgun. I started noticing more and more how long some of the places I frequent are, easily a good 15 yard shot could be possible. High stress, screaming people all around. That guy is a true hero!

[HCM]

This is why I have been spending a great deal of time the last few years on long distance accuracy with a handgun. I started noticing more and more how long some of the places I frequent are, easily a good 15 yard shot could be possible. High stress, screaming people all around. That guy is a true hero!

That is a good start, but ensure you work it under time pressure as well.

[Kyle Reese]

This is why I have been spending a great deal of time the last few years on long distance accuracy with a handgun. I started noticing more and more how long some of the places I frequent are, easily a good 15 yard shot could be possible. High stress, screaming people all around. That guy is a true hero!

I’m a big proponent of on demand performance,and kudos to you for taking the time to put in the work at distance with a handgun. As HCM suggested, employ par times with these drills. There are no guarantees that a defensive handgun engagement will be in the 1.5 to 7 yards range (internet wisdom aside), so being able to employ your pistol at distance is critically important. It’s not the odds, it’s the stakes.


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[revchuck38]

There are no guarantees that a defensive handgun engagement will be in the 1.5 to 7 yards (internet wisdom aside), so being able to employ your pistol at distance is critically important.

I had to go to Lowe's today for something. I had to walk all the way to the back of the store from the front door. When I got to the back of the store, I turned around and noted that the front door was an unimpeded 75 yards or so away. Someplace like a Super Walmart is similar.

I was going to the range tomorrow anyway. I usually shoot at ten yards and in. I'll probably start at 15 yards and work my way out.

[Simong]

My prayers to the families.

Practice,get yourself into a good tactical course.
You can only benefit from it,you never know you might be able to save a live or few.

Simong.

[HCM]

My prayers to the families.

Practice,get yourself into a good tactical course.
You can only benefit from it,you never know you might be able to save a live or few.

Simong.

The other factor is get a good tactical medical course, or at least a stop the bleed course. One thing I did not see in the aftermath of the shooting was anyone running up with a medical kit to aid the victims.

[Borderland]

This is why I have been spending a great deal of time the last few years on long distance accuracy with a handgun. I started noticing more and more how long some of the places I frequent are, easily a good 15 yard shot could be possible. High stress, screaming people all around. That guy is a true hero!

I've sold several pistols that I couldn't shoot well at 15 yds. For me that's a requirement. I'm not anticipating that I will ever have to use my carry at 15 yds but not every engagement is going to be inside a building. Some are going to say that one would put themselves at risk legally for shooting someone at that distance but this incident is a good example of having to make that shot. I'm not sure of the circumstances in this particular shooting but it appears the second shooter was security of some type. Not being in a security capacity wouldn't change my response if somebody was shooting at me from a distance of more than 7 yds. I guess that mindset comes from training with a carbine. 15 yds is reasonable with a pistol and 100 yds is reasonable with a carbine.

I think this country has gone full tilt insane when a person can't go to church without being armed to defend themselves from some nut job trying to kill the parishioners. Sign of the times I guess. Gear up.

[GJM]

Best estimate on the distance of the good guy’s shot?

[JodyH]

Best estimate on the distance of the good guy’s shot?
I was counting pews and looking at the angle, my guess is about 12 yards.
this church broadcasts on YouTube and has multiple camera angles from previous services in their archives.
Might get a better estimate from a different viewing angle.

[rd62]

I'd feel pretty good at 12yds. Looked further to me but it may have to do with the formatting as I watched it on my phone.

I've done walk back drills in classes and regularly practice speed inside 10yds and slower precision shots at 25. The 25 is challenging for me with my regular carry G19 and the lighting in my regular indoor range. Still working at it though and seems like adding some faster times at 25 would be beneficial too.

It wouldn't work in the incident in the church so much but in a setting like the Lowes or Walmart previously referenced, is there a consensus on at what distance its best to engage at range or where it would be wiser to maneuver to close the distance for a higher probability shot? Too many variables? It seems the 75yd to the front of the big box store would fall into this area. I'm sure there are some here that could make that shot. I could not. And maybe at that point its better to find my way out of the store.... I believe I would have moral issues with that decision though.

Sorry, kinda started thinking out loud there but instances like these give us a lot to consider and hopefully learn from.

[revchuck38]

rd62 - The "book" answer would be to leave. If I had my family in tow, that's what I'd do with no hesitation. If I were alone...it'd be situationally dependent. There's a lot of downside to taking action when you have to option to leave. Like a lot of folks here, I no longer get paid to run to the sound of the guns, but I might feel like I need to anyway.

[HCM]

I've sold several pistols that I couldn't shoot well at 15 yds. For me that's a requirement. I'm not anticipating that I will ever have to use my carry at 15 yds but not every engagement is going to be inside a building. Some are going to say that one would put themselves at risk legally for shooting someone at that distance but this incident is a good example of having to make that shot. I'm not sure of the circumstances in this particular shooting but it appears the second shooter was security of some type. Not being in a security capacity wouldn't change my response if somebody was shooting at me from a distance of more than 7 yds. I guess that mindset comes from training with a carbine. 15 yds is reasonable with a pistol and 100 yds is reasonable with a carbine.

I think this country has gone full tilt insane when a person can't go to church without being armed to defend themselves from some nut job trying to kill the parishioners. Sign of the times I guess. Gear up.

Anyone who says that shooting someone at 15 yards is legally questionable as self-defense based on the distance is a complete moron. I’ve never seen anyone with any sort of real skill with a pistol claim that anything beyond 7 yards is not self-defense. That is just some b******t people make up to make themselves feel better because they can’t shoot.

What is or is not reasonable distance is depending on context just like every other lawfully justified shooting. Carbine or pistol or just tools. Just because X distance is a stretch for you does not make it unreasonable for someone with the requisite skill.

[Simong]

The other factor is get a good tactical medical course, or at least a stop the bleed course. One thing I did not see in the aftermath of the shooting was anyone running up with a medical kit to aid the victims.

Agreed as well.

Many of my friends and members of my community are certified EMT, and more than few poses Paramedics credentials.

Simong.

[HCM]

Agreed as well.

Many of my friends and members of my community are certified EMT, and more than few poses Paramedics credentials.

Simong.

Stop the bleed posted about this event on their FB page.

[Clay1]

This is why I have been spending a great deal of time the last few years on long distance accuracy with a handgun. I started noticing more and more how long some of the places I frequent are, easily a good 15 yard shot could be possible. High stress, screaming people all around. That guy is a true hero!
Bluntly it is the reason I went to the red dot. I'm making 3X5 card shots regularly at 15/17 yards (my indoor range in Wis is only 50') Like a previous posted comment, can I make a COM hit from the front of the store to the back of the store? Can I make a hit from check out register 1 to check out register 15? Our skill set must be better.

Damn, I'm glad that only one parishioner lost their life vs what could have occurred. I still remember Cooper of Gunsite fame, saying that so many people know that these things happen. Many of us read this stuff or see this in the news but when it comes for us, we freeze or don't know how to respond. Coopers' thought when faced with violence, greater dominating violence is the response. His students knew that when faced with this situation what to do without hesitation. Shooting skill is one thing, but timing and action and mind set are additional keys.

My thoughts go out to the family that lost a loved one and for the man that had to do what was his only choice that day because he knew what his response would be when he faced this evil.

[0ddl0t]

Damn, I'm glad that only one parishioner lost their life vs what could have occurred.

Unfortunately, the other parishioner died later at the hospital.

[YVK]

That is so sad. You can see the guy trying to come to grips with what’s going on at first, then drawing *really* slowly (ability, not intent).




The guy who attempts to respond has the gun way back and looks like he has to clear a jacket and a covering shirt - that isn't fast.



Ever read on the interwebs that a fast draw has not been proven to be that important? I hope we all remember this video next time we hear that.

[Vandal320]

I am hearing that the Gentleman that stopped the shooter today is named Jack Wilson(Pictured).

I am also hearing that it took LE/EMT's 11 minutes to respond. That could have been 11 minutes of carnage if no one was armed. Morale of the story. Stay strapped or get clapped...

[BWT]

Ever read on the interwebs that a fast draw has not been proven to be that important? I hope we all remember this video next time we hear that.

Same with reloads. It only has to matter once.

[Totem Polar]

I was counting pews and looking at the angle, my guess is about 12 yards.
this church broadcasts on YouTube and has multiple camera angles from previous services in their archives.
Might get a better estimate from a different viewing angle.

I counted the pews as well, figuring +/- 3ft/pew...about 36 feet as a very rough guesstimate allowing for angle across 3 sections. So, yeah, 12 yards +/- works for me.

[Olim9]

Untrained and semi-trained people have terrible gun handling skills.
Watch any of hundreds of LE, Mil and civilian shooting videos on the Internet and you'll see that everybody gets muzzled and it's a miracle there aren't more ND's.
Rarely does someone exhibit solid gun handling, and if they do you're not surprised because the video already showed them taking care of business in a solid way as well.

Darryl said something to this effect in a P&S modcast very recently "People need to work on their administrative gun handling skills but they don't because it's not sexy". I started working at a range not too long ago and I now get a really good glimpse of just how sloppy and careless some people can be. I often want to ask people how do they expect to be able to control their muzzle in these types of situations under stress when they have difficulty following four basic safety rules on a flat range. I don't because I don't want to come off as confrontational but a lot of people really need this kind of talk. Just like getting negative reps live and dryfire, you can get negative reps with safety.

[GardoneVT]

What is or is not reasonable distance is depending on context just like every other lawfully justified shooting. Carbine or pistol or just tools. Just because X distance is a stretch for you does not make it unreasonable for someone with the requisite skill.

I rarely see people impartially analyze their daily routines and train accordingly. If ones occupation means routinely visiting 200 person lecture halls, a Bersa .380 is probably not a beneficial carry gun. We should note the intervening shooter had a firearm which properly functioned with quality ammo - two things many ignore when they walk out the house with a .380 chambered Condition Three.

[AlwaysLearning]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/texas-church-shooting-dead-west-freeway-white-settlement?ref=bfnsplash
Not the headline, but pretty close.

Very sad about the big man who was drawing when the bad guy shot him. He died a hero who bought time for the older gentleman in back to finish the fight. Kudos to the older gentleman for stopping the threat, from a Weaver stance no less.

[Ed L]

The information is out about the hero who shot the shooter: https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/jack-wilson/

According to the information, the member of the church security team who shot the shooter was Jack Wilson, who was formerly a reserve deputy sheriff, , a long time firearms instructor who previously owned a shooting range and gun store that burned down in 2016. The firearm he used to shoot the church killer was a Sig P229 in .357 Sig. He is currently running for county commissioner in Hood County.

[HCountyGuy]

The information is out about the hero who shot the shooter: https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/jack-wilson/

According to the information, the member of the church security team who shot the shooter was Jack Wilson, who was formerly a reserve deputy sheriff, , a long time firearms instructor who previously owned a shooting range and gun store that burned down in 2016. The firearm he used to shoot the church killer was a Sig P229 in .357 Sig. He is currently running for county commissioner in Hood County.

I’ll bet he wins in a landslide now.

[LittleLebowski]

Anyone got a working link for the video?

[parishioner]

Anyone got a working link for the video?

Clearest one I’ve seen: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article238807963.html

[JodyH]

Anyone got a working link for the video?
Linked website is not NSFW
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9N4df_1577655564

[41magfan]

I suspect this may make me sound like something of an outlier, but my main takeaway (there are several other notable learning points) from this incident is simply this; Seldom can your speed in presenting the gun overcome deficiencies is awareness and readiness.

[Tensaw]

Speaking of being an outlier.... This isn’t terribly germane to the immediate conservation of dissecting how things went down inside the church, but I wonder if the fact that the service was being live-streamed somehow factored in to the shithead’s decision to target that particular church. I say this in the context of thinking about the shithead in New Zealand who live-streamed himself shooting up the mosque. Oh, and Jack Wilson is a STUD.

[LittleLebowski]

Linked website is not NSFW
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9N4df_1577655564

Bingo, thanks man.

[GJM]

I suspect this may make me sound like something of an outlier, but my main takeaway (there are several other notable learning points) from this incident is simply this; Seldom can your speed in presenting the gun overcome deficiencies is awareness and readiness.

My take away was that movement draws attention. A very slow draw, attracted the attention of the shooter.

[JodyH]

While we can't definitively say a fast draw would have made any difference in the outcome, I can say with complete confidence that a 1 sec. draw to hit damn sure wouldn't have made things worse...

BTW: if you go back and skip around through previous service videos, it appears Jack only owns one shirt (dark blue/green Magellan fishing shirt, always untucked, always carrying) I know a guy just like that, heck that guy lives in every town around here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgD79YvFDAI&t=375s In this video you can see all three of the churchmen involved as well as a few of the other CCW members if you watch them close enough.
Also, watch Jack scan the church constantly, good man.

[JodyH]

My take away was that movement draws attention. A very slow draw, attracted the attention of the shooter.
Two draws I work on.
A really fast one and a really sneaky one.

[Tensaw]

Can we tell if the slow draw guy (no disrespect intended) was verbally engaged with the shithead prior to or as he was drawing?

Another thought. Based on what I’ve read, the shithead was acting weird prior to the shooting. In a perfect world, he would have never made it (back) into the sanctuary with the firearm. He would have been engaged outside the building (assuming he actually left the sanctuary to go get his weapon). My church has two guys stationed outside the sanctuary to engage with folks like this. Meaning, someone who is unknown (it is a very small congregation at my church) or who is acting odd, or looks odd (fake beard, weirdo clothing), or who is, for instance, carrying a shotgun - should be engaged at an appropriate level (verbally, etc.) by the two security guys outside. The hope is to handle any sort of problems before they get into the sanctuary. The thought is that, once a shithead makes it inside the sanctuary, the best outcome we can hope for is what we see here i.e., shithead is taken down but only after damage is done.

Just to clarify. I/we don’t have complete information on how this went down. My intent is not to criticize anyone or any decision connected with this shooting - rather, I suspect many here are involved in their own church security so I am thinking out loud about how this might have had a better outcome and trying to learn from this.

[JHC]

CNN titles going right to the heart of the matter

[JHC]

By this reporting the defender is a very experienced shooter who has taught it before and used his P229 in .357 Sig

https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/jack-wilson/?fbclid=IwAR0dckeoYBZ0kILgJXccBt81Do7weJV5AZ924FuC VqL8Ou07GjuFYYDgbI4

[Vandal320]

Jack Wilson is running for Office in Hood County TX.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/texas-church-hero-delivers-powerful-message-owned-gun-range-appears-to-be-nra-supporter-report-says

[0ddl0t]

ASP has a copy without text or watermarks blocking things: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E&bpctr=1577713022


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E&bpctr

As good as this outcome was, it appears both church casualties could have been avoided had either of the initial responders had a <2sec reaction/draw to on-target shot. On the other hand, responder #2 was fast enough to prevent the pastor from being hit:

2:37 perp begins to pull shotgun.

2:37.5 Church security guy #1 begins to stand & draw. Church security guy #2 appears to have head bowed in prayer.

~2:38 Church security guy #2 looks up and sees Perp with shotgun leveled at usher.

~2:38.75 Perp begins to turn shotgun toward church security guy #1, who is standing with hand on holstered gun. Church security guy #2's arm begins moving towards his gun.

~2:40 Perp backs away from usher. Church security guy #1 is still standing with hand on holstered gun. Church security guy #2 has bladed his body slightly and now has hand on his holstered gun.

~2:40.9 Church security guy #1 pulls arm up from wasteband, probably with pistol in hand, as Perp fires at him. Church security guy #2 flinches/crouches, putting a hitch in his draw.

~2:41.5 Church security guy #1's hand/pistol goes to his chest and he drops nearly instantly. The congregation drops down. Church security guy #2 continues drawing. Perp returns attention to (frozen in place) usher.

~2:42 Perp shoots usher. Church security guy #2 has cleared holster and has pistol at belly height, muzzle pointed towards perp.

~2:42.5 Church security guy #2 has pistol at eye level, perp begins to move/turn towards pastor

~2:43.25 Church security guy #2 fires, hitting a moving perp in the head. The perp's shotgun appears to discharge simultaneously in the general direction of the pastor.

~2:43.5 perp collapses.

~2:44 church security guy #2 advances

~2:49 church security guy #2 stops just short of the perp, covering him while later motioning others to clear away.

~2:50 church security guy #3 enters frame with gun drawn

~2:53 church security guy #4 enters frame with gun drawn, flagging congregation

~2:56 church security guy #5 enters frame with gun drawn, flagging congregation

~3:02-3:06 church security guy #2 advances to perp and appears to kick away shotgun

[NickA]

CNN titles going right to the heart of the matter

Interesting- the second line in that subtitle now reads "It was one of many recent attacks on people of faith across America", and that's sort of the slant of their coverage. I expected much more of a "guns bad" angle from CNN.

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[45dotACP]

So a 12+ yard headshot, on a moving target with a DA first shot.

Stud indeed.

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[JHC]

So a 12+ yard headshot, on a moving target with a DA first shot.

Stud indeed.

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+1 he didn’t spend all day on the sights either

[SsevenN]

~13 yard shot on a moving 4"x4", 3 second par time, .357 SIG, double action pull, pretty fucking metal.

46513

[YVK]

~13 yard shot on a moving 4"x4", 3 second par time, .357 SIG, double action pull, pretty fucking metal.


5 seconds. He starts his draw just after the perp produces the shotgun and shoots him after the two forward men are down. It was a tough shot indeed and he didn't sit on his sights too long, but it did take him some time to get the gun out and up.
Makes me wonder how many of us here will draw and shoot at a mere sight of a weapon, vs waiting for an additional confirmation, which in this case means two good men dead.

[Amp]

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/12/30/tx-lt-gov-praises-armed-parishioners-calls-them-immediate-responders/

[SsevenN]

5 seconds. He starts his draw just after the perp produces the shotgun and shoots him after the two forward men are down. It was a tough shot indeed and he didn't sit on his sights too long, but it did take him some time to get the gun out and up.
Makes me wonder how many of us here will draw and shoot at a mere sight of a weapon, vs waiting for an additional confirmation, which in this case means two good men dead.
Personally I worry about that exact "deer in headlights" "OODA Loop" lock up, not sure exactly what I would do, but I imagine dirt napping someone who's in the first few seconds of presenting a firearm, only committing brandishing and threatening related crimes at that moment, well shooting him would cause any of us deep legal troubles without a bunch of luck and context.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm driving at, but it is kind of fucked up in the sense that it would be difficult to justify lethal action prior to the shooter's first shot, or at least, it would be an expensive process.

[YVK]

I agree with you. I've thought about this a bit. The decision making time would probably take the most, and I think most of us, myself included, will need an unequivocal signal to go. We have a member here who shot at the sight of a weapon in a widely publicized incident, and I believe that the process after was quite long and likely unpleasant.

[Totem Polar]

Interesting- the second line in that subtitle now reads "It was one of many recent attacks on people of faith across America", and that's sort of the slant of their coverage. I expected much more of a "guns bad" angle from CNN.


I also expected "guns bad" (or minimized coverage) and stand corrected.

[rd62]

Personally I worry about that exact "deer in headlights" "OODA Loop" lock up, not sure exactly what I would do, but I imagine dirt napping someone who's in the first few seconds of presenting a firearm, only committing brandishing and threatening related crimes at that moment, well shooting him would cause any of us deep legal troubles without a bunch of luck and context.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm driving at, but it is kind of fucked up in the sense that it would be difficult to justify lethal action prior to the shooter's first shot, or at least, it would be an expensive process.

I see exactly what you are saying. If he walked in holding it by his side or pointed at the floor some verbal commands would likely be in order. Once they begin to take a firing stance or acquire a sight picture they would have displayed intent to harm.

I think knowing what the policy of you local LE agency is for when a person with a weapon is deemed a deadly force threat and following similar may be a good practice.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think the contrast between the house of worship shootings and religious attacks of the armed vs. unarmed potential victims is a talking point that can be made in a calm and rational manner.

Better cover story for the NRA mags than Stop the Socialist Wave. I would like someone to bring that up to Governor Cuomo. Yeah, he will say ban all guns.

[blues]

I stand by my original opinion. The guy did a great job when the setting and all circumstances are taken into consideration. Those who have never had to draw a weapon on another human being in the real world do not, in my opinion, have a complete understanding of the situation.

At least in law enforcement...when going into a scenario...we generally had the opportunity to prepare for a particular eventuality or set of circumstances.

Considering the environment, the number of people in harm's way, distance and need to make a snap evaluation I think this gentleman did an awesome job.

[HCM]

5 seconds. He starts his draw just after the perp produces the shotgun and shoots him after the two forward men are down. It was a tough shot indeed and he didn't sit on his sights too long, but it did take him some time to get the gun out and up.
Makes me wonder how many of us here will draw and shoot at a mere sight of a weapon, vs waiting for an additional confirmation, which in this case means two good men dead.


I agree with you. I've thought about this a bit. The decision making time would probably take the most, and I think most of us, myself included, will need an unequivocal signal to go. We have a member here who shot at the sight of a weapon in a widely publicized incident, and I believe that the process after was quite long and likely unpleasant.


I see exactly what you are saying. If he walked in holding it by his side or pointed at the floor some verbal commands would likely be in order. Once they begin to take a firing stance or acquire a sight picture they would have displayed intent to harm.

I think knowing what the policy of you local LE agency is for when a person with a weapon is deemed a deadly force threat and following similar may be a good practice.

Context is everything. There is case law from LE shootings in which the courts recognize that action beats reaction and thus that if an officer waits until an actual assault has occurred it it too late. This is where recognizing and articulating behaviors like pre-assault indicators comes into play. Most people’s assessment time in the real world is going to be longer than what is seen on the range or in training so the sooner, not fastest aspect of recognizing and being confident in articulating negative behaviors is critical.

My. Wilson started with his hand on his gun even before the first shot was fired so it appears he was seeing what was coming and some “sooner not faster” was going on.

In the situation YVK cited, the actions were 100% justified, but politics were very much a factor. Same situation in a different time or place would not have been as long or unpleasant.

[GardoneVT]

5 seconds. He starts his draw just after the perp produces the shotgun and shoots him after the two forward men are down. It was a tough shot indeed and he didn't sit on his sights too long, but it did take him some time to get the gun out and up.
Makes me wonder how many of us here will draw and shoot at a mere sight of a weapon, vs waiting for an additional confirmation, which in this case means two good men dead.

Being a fast draw is all well and good, but it means jack if the bad guy can get in your space using social engineering with his weapon already in play. As shown I see two major SA failures; one by the church security member who wound up reaching against a readied long gun , and the bad guy (thankfully) when he got focused on taking the podium.

Had the bad guy looked right we’d be discussing a different ending. A pistol vs long gun duel with 20 odd innocent bystanders and no cover is an awful day, and thankfully for circumstances the subject wasn’t trained.

I don’t want to sound like Mr Bad Morale, but we should be careful when drawing conclusions around this event. Luck is a fickle mistress.


I also expected "guns bad" (or minimized coverage) and stand corrected.

Their narrative holds that guns for uniformed or designated personnel are acceptable. Since the citizen was part of Church security and the casualties were single digits it’s unlikely to provoke further action.

[Caballoflaco]

There’s a good chance a shotgun blast inside is going to f up my reaction time a little.

Last month me and a buddy were returning to a trail head after a long hike and some jackass let off a round of .30-06 (not in our direction) in the parking lot when we were about 30 yards away and couldn’t see him. We’d been hearing sporadic rifle fire for about 20 minutes, but the proximity of that shot basically physically paralyzed me for a brief instant while my brain registerd that I didn’t hear the crack of a bullet and wasn’t actually being shot at.

[revchuck38]

Context is everything. There is case law from LE shootings in which the courts recognize that action beats reaction and thus that if an officer waits until an actual assault has occurred it it too late. This is where recognizing and articulating behaviors like pre-assault indicators comes into play. Most people’s assessment time in the real world is going to be longer than what is seen on the range or in training so the sooner, not fastest aspect of recognizing and being confident in articulating negative behaviors is critical.

Honest question: Does this transfer to non-LE shootings? I can document training in recognizing pre-assault indicators, but would it be deemed relevant as a non-LEO? Logically it should, but we're talking law, not logic.

[El Cid]

There’s a good chance a shotgun blast inside is going to f up my reaction time a little.

Last month me and a buddy were returning to a trail head after a long hike and some jackass let off a round of .30-06 (not in our direction) in the parking lot when we were about 30 yards away and couldn’t see him. We’d been hearing sporadic rifle fire for about 20 minutes, but the proximity of that shot basically physically paralyzed me for a brief instant while my brain registerd that I didn’t hear the crack of a bullet and wasn’t actually being shot at.

There was a lengthy discussion here on P-F about the “flashbang” effect. A very loud noise can reset your OODA loop or worse. This is of course why flash bangs are used in tactical applications. But the discussion was in reference to how often gunfights were resolved with a single shot back in the day when LE was still ruled by magnum revolvers. The noise and flash may have had more to do with the bad guy giving up than being shot. There was even a story about the NYPD stake out squad where one of them fired a short bbl shotgun at an armed bad guy. Bad guy drops to the ground screaming for medical assistance. He was 100% out of the fight. Thing was... the shotgun blast missed. He was physically uninjured. The blast made his brain give up and he thought he was dying.

This all makes the hero’s performance even more impressive in my book.

[HCM]

Honest question: Does this transfer to non-LE shootings? I can document training in recognizing pre-assault indicators, but would it be deemed relevant as a non-LEO? Logically it should, but we're talking law, not logic.

Legally, documenting the training should make your articulation of those factors you observed during an incident relevant because the factors are documented as being known to you prior to the incident. Legally, Reasonableness judgements are made based on what was known to you at the time.

[ccmdfd]

Their narrative holds that guns for uniformed or designated personnel are acceptable. Since the citizen was part of Church security and the casualties were single digits it’s unlikely to provoke further action.

Looks like CNN is starting to make that point:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/us/texas-church-shooting-monday/index.html

cc

[HCM]

Looks like CNN is starting to make that point:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/us/texas-church-shooting-monday/index.html

cc

In line with my prior comments about “sooner, not faster”


In an interview with CNN affiliate KTVT, Wilson said that he had "eyes" on the suspect from the time he walked into the room.

[GardoneVT]

There’s a good chance a shotgun blast inside is going to f up my reaction time a little.

Last month me and a buddy were returning to a trail head after a long hike and some jackass let off a round of .30-06 (not in our direction) in the parking lot when we were about 30 yards away and couldn’t see him. We’d been hearing sporadic rifle fire for about 20 minutes, but the proximity of that shot basically physically paralyzed me for a brief instant while my brain registerd that I didn’t hear the crack of a bullet and wasn’t actually being shot at.

Another salient lesson is mental expectations.

Churches aren’t places we’d expect gunfire. Most churchgoers attend since childhood, and naturally consider a church sanctuary to be just that. The realization of “holy shit .....that’s a shotgun IN SUNDAY SERVICE” is a shocking mental picture.

[GyroF-16]

The CNN story linked above is the second place I seen mention of TWO security members shooting the attacker.
In watching the video a few times, I don’t see any indication of another responder shooting.

Anyone seeing something that I don’t?

[JodyH]

The church my wife attends (and is an armed volunteer at) has a policy of having one or two designated ushers "enthusiastically greet" new walk-ins to service (especially out of place ones).
They will also assist them in finding a seat. Which if the size up warrants it is conveniently located where one or both ushers are in an advantageous position, and is known as "the seat to watch" by all the volunteers.
It's not enough to just keep eyes on someone, talking with them and looking them over in a casual, welcoming conversation goes a long ways in assessing threat potential.

[SsevenN]

Looks like reporters managed to corner Mr. Wilson at some point today, this video just surfaced. I'm impressed how aware he's expressing he was of his target's foreground and background.

Sorry no imbed
https://streamable.com/0mjrs

[rd62]

I'm impressed how aware he's expressing he was of his target's foreground and background.


I'm pretty cognizant of it in our sanctuary and it would be incredibly difficult be positioned in a seat where you could witness a potential threat enter via the main doors and engage that threat without having to move to create a sufficient angle to reduce bystanders behind the target.

[Kyle Reese]

Joe Biden weighing in, and giving us the benefit of his wisdom on the matter.


https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/30/joe-biden-attacked-texas-concealed-carry-law-that-prevented-a-massacre-sunday/


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[SeriousStudent]

My take away was that movement draws attention. A very slow draw, attracted the attention of the shooter.

SouthNarc has a very good presentation/discussion about "earning your draw". He's one of several people I would be very interesting in listening to, regarding this incident.

[Joe in PNG]

Joe Biden weighing in, and giving us the benefit of his wisdom on the matter.


https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/30/joe-biden-attacked-texas-concealed-carry-law-that-prevented-a-massacre-sunday/


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He can go sit and spin. It's easy for the corrupt father of a SOB to lecture on the subject when he has armed guards provided at government expense.

[blues]

Joe Biden weighing in, and giving us the benefit of his wisdom on the matter.


https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/30/joe-biden-attacked-texas-concealed-carry-law-that-prevented-a-massacre-sunday/


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Brilliant! :rolleyes:

[Lester Polfus]

I saw the shooting video. That was an excellent shot.

I saw the video with Mr. Wilson. He made that shot because he was ready, not because he was lucky.

If I'm ever there, I hope I can do that well.

[WobblyPossum]

Joe Biden weighing in, and giving us the benefit of his wisdom on the matter.


https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/30/joe-biden-attacked-texas-concealed-carry-law-that-prevented-a-massacre-sunday/


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Let’s keep in mind that the statements Joe Biden made weren’t a response to this shooting. The video interview was from immediately after Gov. Abbott signed the bill into law, allowing carry in churches. While I’m not a fan of Joe Biden, it’s disingenuous to imply that he stated these things in response to this shooting.

[TGS]

I think knowing what the policy of you local LE agency is for when a person with a weapon is deemed a deadly force threat and following similar may be a good practice.

This isn't necessarily something that is spelled out to the degree you're looking for, ala military ROEs.

The same standard is applied to everyone, LE or not: the reasonable man. Were you reasonably in fear of your life? The "reasonable man" is a conceptual image, using the facts known to you at the time of the shooting. These facts could range from what you know about the person, or perhaps things you know about what you are perceiving, such as a history of working with mental illness and recognizing those signs, or training in pre-assault indicators.

There isn't going to be a LE policy at any department that says, "If he does A, you do B." Most department's are not going to have a policy like you're searching for. Some exceptions to this exist within the PERF 30 principles applied at PDs with super liberal executive officers, but remember that a departmental policy is not law, and you are not obligated to follow the policies of what a nearby agency does. One person's threshold to shoot can be lower than another persons, and both people still be legally justified. In the end, I think a healthy understanding on the legalities of deadly force is a more productive use of time than trying to peruse nearby PDs use of force policies that are 1) likely not encompassing what you're looking for, and 2) Written for the purpose of enforcing the will of the state on humans, not necessarily in the context of self-defense.

For anyone so inclined that doesn't have a warm and fuzzy, this is probably the best, easily digestible primer on the lawful use of deadly force out there: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/legal-concerns/ability-opportunity-jeopardy/

[Paul D]

Looking at that video makes me think how I should do some of my drills now. In this scenario, the defender had a rather unobstructed view of the shooter. The shooter was was about 12 yards away with no bystander standing in between (granted the shooter was moving laterally so that is harder). If I move my USPSA target at 12 yards, I think can reliably hit the head box from a concealed AIWB draw in under 2.0 seconds every time. Now let's use the same target but place two no-shoot bystander targets 7 yards away between me and the shooter target 6 feet apart from each other. Normally I would just shoot that target without fear because I know those no-shoots won't move. That may be a bad habit in real life because people can move in the way. Should I change how I practice this? Should I now run up in between the no-shoots and then engage the shoot target, thus not risk flagging/shooting a bystander? What is the conventional wisdom for this?

[0ddl0t]

This isn't necessarily something that is spelled out to the degree you're looking for, ala military ROEs.

The same standard is applied to everyone, LE or not: the reasonable man. Were you reasonably in fear of your life? The "reasonable man" is a conceptual image, using the facts known to you at the time of the shooting.

Sadly I don't think that will work in many jurisdictions in California today. The LEO standard is now "necessary" rather than "reasonable" and I'm sure many DA's are eager to apply that stricter standard to civilians as well.

Is it "necessary" to shoot a robber in the head before he has physically harmed anyone? https://www.bitchute.com/video/8zLj8I40kbV3/

[Lester Polfus]

Looking at that video makes me think how I should do some of my drills now. In this scenario, the defender had a rather unobstructed view of the shooter. The shooter was was about 12 yards away with no bystander standing in between (granted the shooter was moving laterally so that is harder). If I move my USPSA target at 12 yards, I think can reliably hit the head box from a concealed AIWB draw in under 2.0 seconds every time. Now let's use the same target but place two no-shoot bystander targets 7 yards away between me and the shooter target 6 feet apart from each other. Normally I would just shoot that target without fear because I know those no-shoots won't move. That may be a bad habit in real life because people can move in the way. Should I change how I practice this? Should I now run up in between the no-shoots and then engage the shoot target, thus not risk flagging/shooting a bystander? What is the conventional wisdom for this?

Welcome to the world of eating a shit sandwich with a gun in your hand.

If you wait for the perfect shot, the guy might kill a bunch more people.

If you just play it as it lays, you might put a Gold Dot through the church organists ear by mistake.

It all just depends...

[rd62]

This isn't necessarily something that is spelled out to the degree you're looking for, ala military ROEs.

The same standard is applied to everyone, LE or not: the reasonable man. Were you reasonably in fear of your life? The "reasonable man" is a conceptual image, using the facts known to you at the time of the shooting. These facts could range from what you know about the person, or perhaps things you know about what you are perceiving, such as a history of working with mental illness and recognizing those signs, or training in pre-assault indicators.

There isn't going to be a LE policy at any department that says, "If he does A, you do B." Most department's are not going to have a policy like you're searching for. Some exceptions to this exist within the PERF 30 principles applied at PDs with super liberal executive officers, but remember that a departmental policy is not law, and you are not obligated to follow the policies of what a nearby agency does. One person's threshold to shoot can be lower than another persons, and both people still be legally justified. In the end, I think a healthy understanding on the legalities of deadly force is a more productive use of time than trying to peruse nearby PDs use of force policies that are 1) likely not encompassing what you're looking for, and 2) Written for the purpose of enforcing the will of the state on humans, not necessarily in the context of self-defense.

For anyone so inclined that doesn't have a warm and fuzzy, this is probably the best, easily digestible primer on the lawful use of deadly force out there: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/legal-concerns/ability-opportunity-jeopardy/

Great point and thanks for the feedback and link!

[rd62]

Sadly I don't think that will work in many jurisdictions in California today. The LEO standard is now "necessary" rather than "reasonable" and I'm sure many DA's are eager to apply that stricter standard to civilians as well.

Is it "necessary" to shoot a robber in the head before he has physically harmed anyone? https://www.bitchute.com/video/8zLj8I40kbV3/

Very true too! It doesn't seem policy necessarily protects an officer operating within it anymore as it used to.

Certainly makes one consider the political climate of their regular geography even more. I'm happy that I live in an area where that wouldn't be so much an issue but there are certainly parts of the country where that's not true.

[41magfan]

I can't say this strongly enough; There's a lot more to SD law than the simple application of AOJ and anyone that carries a gun should bone-up on ALL the elements of SD law in every jurisdiction you might find yourself using deadly force.

[fixer]

bad guy seems to have some sort of indication that at least the two near by dudes were security or some form of church authority. Not sure what the chit chat about is but it looks to me like he is announcing his intentions. This chit chat somehow indicates to the two near by security dudes that they need to draw their weapon immediately. They may not have even thought it was the bad guy in front of them that was going to be a shooter...total ooda mind-fuck right there. I can see why draw times might have been a bit slower. They might have glanced around looking for some other bad guys...and this gave the shooter a wee bit more time to "shoulder" the shotgun and take out two security team members in close quarters.

[Hambo]

Looking at that video makes me think how I should do some of my drills now. In this scenario, the defender had a rather unobstructed view of the shooter. The shooter was was about 12 yards away with no bystander standing in between (granted the shooter was moving laterally so that is harder). If I move my USPSA target at 12 yards, I think can reliably hit the head box from a concealed AIWB draw in under 2.0 seconds every time. Now let's use the same target but place two no-shoot bystander targets 7 yards away between me and the shooter target 6 feet apart from each other. Normally I would just shoot that target without fear because I know those no-shoots won't move. That may be a bad habit in real life because people can move in the way. Should I change how I practice this? Should I now run up in between the no-shoots and then engage the shoot target, thus not risk flagging/shooting a bystander? What is the conventional wisdom for this?

Dagga Boy has addressed this better than I will here, but the basic answer is that this is a thinking/assessing problem, not a shooting problem.

[41magfan]

As it is with most of these incidents, the essential learning points have very little to do with the shooting component.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/i-killed-an-evil-parishioner-who-shot-gunman-describes-attack-on-texas-church/ar-BBYtylF?ocid=spartanntp

[Amp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=288&v=cuOEv1jCivg&feature=emb_logo

[ST911]

I can't say this strongly enough; There's a lot more to SD law than the simple application of AOJ and anyone that carries a gun should bone-up on ALL the elements of SD law in every jurisdiction you might find yourself using deadly force.

I'm a big fan of Andrew Branca's 5-element approach. Broadly applicable to more tools and jurisdictions, and a much more complete picture of what an application of force should look like.

[JodyH]

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Equipment

Competency levels in all four determined the outcomes for all involved.

The first armed responder had the mindset, he reacted and acted about as well as can be expected considering the circumstances.
His tactical options were extremely limited by proximity and a confined area, he had a shit sandwich from the start with really not many options for improving the situation.
His skill and equipment were where he lost the fight. Poor equipment selection and poor execution.
He was in a hole tactically and didn't have a big enough shovel to dig his way out.

The usher who was shot second never came out of his mental freeze. It happens.

Jack Wilson was damn solid in all four and it showed.
Ready, willing and able to get involved with the right equipment and skills developed through time and effort on the range to get it done.

The dead POS.
The bad guy (especially a suicidal one) will almost always start with the mental and tactical advantage.
He identified the primary and secondary threats to him and prioritized them correctly.
He pulled that shotgun pretty damn fast, fumbled with the safety and had zero recoil control but still managed to get the first two shots off which both connected.
Was he a "good shooter" by any metric, probably not. It's a good lesson that inside 10' damn near everyone is "good enough".
Was his equipment selection "good", a pistol grip shotgun is generally considered a poor choice by professionals. But he managed to conceal it well enough that people were surprised when it came out and again, inside 10' damn near anything is "good enough".

My analysis is:
The POS started with multiple advantages and just happened to run into someone who was way better prepared.
One guy started in a hole and just couldn't dig his way out.
One guy never got past the first O in OODA.
Jack Wilson saved a lot of lives by putting in the mental and physical work of preparing for the fight through years of dedicated training. Then defaulting to his level of competence.

[BehindBlueI's]

Honest question: Does this transfer to non-LE shootings? I can document training in recognizing pre-assault indicators, but would it be deemed relevant as a non-LEO? Logically it should, but we're talking law, not logic.

Yes. LE vs non-LE is in almost all cases the same legal tests. Those few differences will be about affecting an arrest using deadly force, something that so rarely comes in to play without some other issue also being relevant that it's never come up in the real world for me.

Example of non-LE using deadly force prior to an attack: Bad guy verbally threatens to batter the victim, invades personal space, bumps the victim's chair aggressively while continuing making threats, threats get more specific to punch the victim in the back of the head. Victim has a serious medical condition due to prior skull/brain injury. Victim slashes bad guy across the eyes with a beer bottle (legally the same as shooting him, mind you) and flees. Originally declared a justified self defense case and not even presented to prosecutor officially. Slashee's daddy was somebody "important" and it was given to me to look at again. After interviews with all involved and witnesses it was officially presented to the prosecutor and got a no file - self defense.

Relevant factors were the presence of pre-attack indicators that the victim could articulate and his documented medical condition (which was relevant to using deadly force vs a punch, something not normally justified).

[blues]

I'm a big fan of Andrew Branca's 5-element approach. Broadly applicable to more tools and jurisdictions, and a much more complete picture of what an application of force should look like.

I am as well. His book "The Law of Self Defense" (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F9FAJBA/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0) is a very useful reference which provides general as well as state specific info regarding the relevant laws.

His blog (https://lawofselfdefense.com/blog/) is also useful.

Other than his penchant for somewhat overselling his products and services, I find the information he provides to be very useful.

[TGS]

Should I change how I practice this?

No.

The no shoots add a contextual understanding of why a low-probability target may increase the stakes, but the point is that the no-shoots offer you a stressor that you have to perform with.

No different than how Todd used to do drills with $20 bills taped around the edges of a 3x5 index card.

Running up to the target to shoot it closer would negate the training value. You're not training a scenario, you're training shooting mechanics.

[Trigger]

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Equipment

Competency levels in all four determined the outcomes for all involved.

The first armed responder had the mindset, he reacted and acted about as well as can be expected considering the circumstances.
His tactical options were extremely limited by proximity and a confined area, he had a shit sandwich from the start with really not many options for improving the situation.
His skill and equipment were where he lost the fight. Poor equipment selection and poor execution.
He was in a hole tactically and didn't have a big enough shovel to dig his way out.

The usher who was shot second never came out of his mental freeze. It happens.

Jack Wilson was damn solid in all four and it showed.
Ready, willing and able to get involved with the right equipment and skills developed through time and effort on the range to get it done.

The dead POS.
The bad guy (especially a suicidal one) will almost always start with the mental and tactical advantage.
He identified the primary and secondary threats to him and prioritized them correctly.
He pulled that shotgun pretty damn fast, fumbled with the safety and had zero recoil control but still managed to get the first two shots off which both connected.
Was he a "good shooter" by any metric, probably not. It's a good lesson that inside 10' damn near everyone is "good enough".
Was his equipment selection "good", a pistol grip shotgun is generally considered a poor choice by professionals. But he managed to conceal it well enough that people were surprised when it came out and again, inside 10' damn near anything is "good enough".

My analysis is:
The POS started with multiple advantages and just happened to run into someone who was way better prepared.
One guy started in a hole and just couldn't dig his way out.
One guy never got past the first O in OODA.
Jack Wilson saved a lot of lives by putting in the mental and physical work of preparing for the fight through years of dedicated training. Then defaulting to his level of competence.

Agree with what you discuss above. What I would like to bring up is cover and concealment. There was no cover available, and very little concealment. However, the first armed responder appeared to stand up and present himself to the shooter, and then start his draw. His draw was obvious and slow, giving the time for the shooter to shift his attention and shotgun from the usher to the first armed responder and fire. By standing first, then reaching for his pistol, he appeared to draw the shooters attention to him. The shooter’s shotgun was already out, while the first armed responder had to perform his full draw cycle while under the direct attention of the shooter.

Watching the video repeatedly, I wish the first armed responder had performed his draw cycle while seated, and partially concealed by the pew in front of him. He would not have drawn the shooters attention to himself until later, saving himself one or several critical seconds. The shooter has his attention initially focused on the usher. it appears that If the first armed responder had drawn and presentEd from partial concealment, then risen as necessary for a clear avenue of fire, he might have created a more advantageous outcome.

[GJM]

1) not sure how hard to do, but comms would seem like a very helpful thing to allow members of the security team to identify a possible threat and make a plan. Do church security teams typically have this capability?

2) Mr Wilson is to church security, and possibly more, what Sully is to aviation.

[TC215]

1) not sure how hard to do, but comms would seem like a very helpful thing to allow members of the security team to identify a possible threat and make a plan. Do church security teams typically have this capability?

2) Mr Wilson is to church security, and possibly more, what Sully is to aviation.

We have radios/earpieces at my church.

[41magfan]

Since I noted in an earlier post I thought any useful learning points (for application to some future event since this one is already in the books) had very little to do with shooting and shooting skill, I'll offer a few more outlier comments … none of which are meant to disparage the actions of ANYONE involved in this particular incident;

- If your job is to provide security, decide in advance if it's going to be passive or active and then act, plan, and prepare accordingly. Don't confuse those two activities.

- If someone unknown to you shows up (unexplainably) wearing an obvious disguise and a trench coat, I would suggest that you not allow him access to any area you're responsible for securing.

- If you can't or won't restrict entry to any such a person, at least assign some able-bodied people (plural) to "bird dog" him while he's on the premises.

- If you can't or won't limit the movement of any such person you've allowed access, at least actively monitor his movements (at all times, in all places) so as to provide a level of control should it be necessary.

There are obviously a number of issues related to the implementation of these protocols, but that's just a matter of dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

[JodyH]

Agree with what you discuss above. What I would like to bring up is cover and concealment. There was no cover available, and very little concealment. However, the first armed responder appeared to stand up and present himself to the shooter, and then start his draw. His draw was obvious and slow, giving the time for the shooter to shift his attention and shotgun from the usher to the first armed responder and fire. By standing first, then reaching for his pistol, he appeared to draw the shooters attention to him. The shooter’s shotgun was already out, while the first armed responder had to perform his full draw cycle while under the direct attention of the shooter.

Watching the video repeatedly, I wish the first armed responder had performed his draw cycle while seated, and partially concealed by the pew in front of him. He would not have drawn the shooters attention to himself until later, saving himself one or several critical seconds. The shooter has his attention initially focused on the usher. it appears that If the first armed responder had drawn and presentEd from partial concealment, then risen as necessary for a clear avenue of fire, he might have created a more advantageous outcome.

Tactics are entirely situational.
Knowing what tactic to apply to a situation comes from training.

My guess is responder #1 has never drawn his firearm from a seated position in his life.
That thought probably never even crossed his mind.
He just did not have that neural pathway established in his brain as a reaction.

My observation is he's probably never drawn his handgun under time pressure in his life either.
His draw looks exactly like the draw of the dozens of first time competitors we have at out CCW matches.
The first draw a new competitor has on the clock is almost always about 3/4 speed and awkward, with a delayed response to the buzzer and that's just under the pressure of a local match.
My guess is up until that moment all his draws at the range (if he's actually ever done any from his carry gear) were done at about that speed with about that amount of urgency.

Cognitive overload means you'll default to your level of competence... maybe.
If you're lucky you'll perform at your average... if you're lucky.
Plan on performing about like you would on your most recent worst range day.

[41magfan]

This is just my personal observation and opinion, but Shooting Victim #1 and #2 both displayed the classic behavior associated with being in Condition White ….. which deals with READINESS, not awareness. You can play "catch-up" (to some degree) with your lack of awareness, but mental readiness can't usually be ramped-up as quickly or decisively.

[lwt16]

1) not sure how hard to do, but comms would seem like a very helpful thing to allow members of the security team to identify a possible threat and make a plan. Do church security teams typically have this capability?

2) Mr Wilson is to church security, and possibly more, what Sully is to aviation.

Motorola digital radios (about 35) with several more analog units for the support staff/children's ministry/bus ministry.

Repeaters, base stations, camera system that covers two campuses.......

We're really blessed with support from church staff.

[JodyH]

My take is they weren't oblivious to the threat but they were in denial, probably willful denial to some extent.

I've had this discussion with my wife and some of the other volunteers at her church and the daughter of one of the deceased highlighted it in one of her interviews.
Everybody recognized that this dude was off.
Everybody wanted to believe he was a lost soul looking for help. Because that's what Christians do.

I've told my wife they need a bunch of selfish heathens like me for security because I make a plan to kill people the first time I meet them and then work backwards from that baseline.
But I've been told that's pretty much incompatible with Christian doctrine (but luckily my wife agrees with my outlook to some extent).

[blues]

Down the rabbit hole...

[GardoneVT]

Everybody recognized that this dude was off.
Everybody wanted to believe he was a lost soul looking for help. Because that's what Christians do.

It’s been some moons since Sunday school for me, but if I recall that IS the mission of a church. To be a place of help for the lost. All things considered her mindset isn’t wrong.

[lwt16]

Everybody recognized that this dude was off.
Everybody wanted to believe he was a lost soul looking for help. Because that's what Christians do.

I've told my wife they need a bunch of selfish heathens like me for security because I make a plan to kill people the first time I meet them and then work backwards from that baseline.
But I've been told that's pretty much incompatible with Christian doctrine (but luckily my wife agrees with my outlook to some extent).

I've seen some of that from my bunch.

I've already had texts and emails from several of them admitting that they weren't taking this ministry ANYWHERE near serious enough and have vowed to train harder.

Time will tell if they are true to their word. I will say that this event being caught on camera has been a good wake up call to most of them.

[TC215]

My take is they weren't oblivious to the threat but they were in denial, probably willful denial to some extent.

I've had this discussion with my wife and some of the other volunteers at her church and the daughter of one of the deceased highlighted it in one of her interviews.
Everybody recognized that this dude was off.
Everybody wanted to believe he was a lost soul looking for help. Because that's what Christians do.

I've told my wife they need a bunch of selfish heathens like me for security because I make a plan to kill people the first time I meet them and then work backwards from that baseline.
But I've been told that's pretty much incompatible with Christian doctrine (but luckily my wife agrees with my outlook to some extent).

The folks on the security team at my church are pretty observant and generally suspicious of people that look out of place (a little too suspicious sometimes, in my opinion).

I’ve done a good bit of training for them over the years, from range training to defensive tactics....It can be difficult to tell a group of people in a church-environment that they need to be prepared to shoot a mother fucker in the face. Most of them understand that, but not all of them.

[TAZ]

- If someone unknown to you shows up (unexplainably) wearing an obvious disguise and a trench coat, I would suggest that you not allow him access to any area you're responsible for securing.


This one will pose a problem for most churches as they are seen and more importantly see themselves as places where folks can turn to in their time of need. Maybe churches need to develop a plan to segregate those who set off spider senses so to speak and allow interactions to be in a more controlled environment. Not really sure how that can be done without seeming like a bunch of jerk or racists or whatever society deems to label folks who act upon their gut instincts.

Not sure if that would eliminate these events. They would just relocate the shooting from inside to the outside, as my gut tells me that as soon as these asshats are challenged they will start shooting. Somewhat better for the parishioners, but the same boat for the security/usher like folks. Not sure what % would simply just walk away to find another potential target of opportunity.

[Casual Friday]

My take is they weren't oblivious to the threat but they were in denial, probably willful denial to some extent.

I've had this discussion with my wife and some of the other volunteers at her church and the daughter of one of the deceased highlighted it in one of her interviews.
Everybody recognized that this dude was off.
Everybody wanted to believe he was a lost soul looking for help. Because that's what Christians do.

I've told my wife they need a bunch of selfish heathens like me for security because I make a plan to kill people the first time I meet them and then work backwards from that baseline.
But I've been told that's pretty much incompatible with Christian doctrine (but luckily my wife agrees with my outlook to some extent).

That is pretty much exactly what our approach is to our church security and I don't find it incompatible with Christian doctrine at all. We have people with defined purposes, the "greeters" such as myself, and we have a hospitality committee who go out of their way to make people feel welcome. It's setup to where the first people who have eyes on everyone walking through the door are the "greeters", and by the time they've cleared the foyer and entered the sanctuary they've been welcomed by several. We also have a person watching the outdoor and indoor cameras at all times during services. We've had many dopers and drunks come in over the years who were just looking for a place to get warm in the winter or get cool in the summer. The mission can still be to minister to the lost and keep the congregation safe at the same time.

When the story broke about the TX shooting on Sunday morning, I was sitting at the monitor watching cameras with a RDS equipped G17 concealed and a 11.5" AR with a Law Folder in a backpack. This has been a standard practice for us since the Sutherland Springs Baptist Church shooting a couple years back.

[GardoneVT]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6t7U3XHxyO/?igshid=ha3d2npndxte

IG post from ColionNoirs profile showing the aftermath. Viewing not recommended for those with high blood pressure.

[Yung]

High blood pressure because you find his post to be in poor taste?

[GardoneVT]

High blood pressure because you find his post to be in poor taste?

The post-incident gun handling. Don’t care about the music.

[JAD]

But I've been told that's pretty much incompatible with Christian doctrine (but luckily my wife agrees with my outlook to some extent).

Not particularly, to my understanding.

[Yung]

The post-incident gun handling.

Thanks for clarifying, I really wasn't sure.

[HCM]

A quote from Nate Perry’s Bookface page:


A certain number of people who are already dismally skilled with a handgun are about to go snag a pistol in .357Sig and in application, be even worse off for it.

46552

[HCM]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6t7U3XHxyO/?igshid=ha3d2npndxte

IG post from ColionNoirs profile showing the aftermath. Viewing not recommended for those with high blood pressure.

This shooting has the gun world in two camps:

Ecumenical snuff films
Analytic philosophy

[OlongJohnson]

The folks on the security team at my church are pretty observant and generally suspicious of people that look out of place (a little too suspicious sometimes, in my opinion).

One thing that a lot of people who've lived a generally conservative, responsible life in mainstream America aren't good at is telling the difference between people who are just a little different and people who are just off. Live among weirdos for awhile and your spidey sense gets sharper.

[Gray Ghost]

I am in charge of security for my church of about 200. This incident hit close to home, and I appreciate the analysis. Here are my takeaways so far:

1) Identifying a visitor who is a potential threat is good. Putting someone armed and trained in close proximity to that person is a good idea. Theologically, this is not a problem for us. We want to share the Gospel with all who will hear it, but we also have a duty under the Sixth Commandment to preserve the lives of our congregation. They are perfectly compatible.

2) Shotguns are deadly. Even with a pistol grip.

3) Drawing against the drop is always a dicey proposition. If faced with that problem, always try to move offline/toward cover while drawing.

4) Body armor is your friend. I don't always wear mine during the worship service because it is hot and uncomfortable, but I am going to recommit myself to it. The first defender who went down would have been much more effective, all else being equal, if he had been wearing a Level IIIA vest.

5) It's the Indian not the arrow. Jack Wilson made a shot that is impressive by any standard, and he did it with what I at least regard as a as a sub-optimal piece of equipment. The DA trigger on a P229 is neither short nor light.

6) There is no substitute for training. Mr. Wilson did not make a "lucky" shot. He had trained hard for a long time and fell to the level of his training. Like the SEAL poem goes: "One shot, one kill, no luck, all skill."

7) Mindset rules the day. Mental preparedness is essential.

[rd62]

1) not sure how hard to do, but comms would seem like a very helpful thing to allow members of the security team to identify a possible threat and make a plan. Do church security teams typically have this capability?

2) Mr Wilson is to church security, and possibly more, what Sully is to aviation.

Our security and medical first responders have radios/ear pieces too

[SiriusBlunder]

I'm a big fan of Andrew Branca's 5-element approach. Broadly applicable to more tools and jurisdictions, and a much more complete picture of what an application of force should look like.


I am as well. His book "The Law of Self Defense" (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F9FAJBA/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0) is a very useful reference which provides general as well as state specific info regarding the relevant laws.

His blog (https://lawofselfdefense.com/blog/) is also useful.

Other than his penchant for somewhat overselling his products and services, I find the information he provides to be very useful.

I have the 2nd and 3rd edition of his book.

For anyone interested, I would recommend the 3rd edition. Pretty much the same content as the 2nd, but easier to read as the state specific info is now in appendices as opposed to being interspersed between chapters.

Here's a quick primer on the 5 Elements (https://www.arsenalattorneys.com/firearms-blog/self-defense-case-study-frank-trujillo).

[HCM]

I am in charge of security for my church of about 200. This incident hit close to home, and I appreciate the analysis. Here are my takeaways so far:

1) Identifying a visitor who is a potential threat is good. Putting someone armed and trained in close proximity to that person is a good idea. Theologically, this is not a problem for us. We want to share the Gospel with all who will hear it, but we also have a duty under the Sixth Commandment to preserve the lives of our congregation. They are perfectly compatible.

2) Shotguns are deadly. Even with a pistol grip.

3) Drawing against the drop is always a dicey proposition. If faced with that problem, always try to move offline/toward cover while drawing.

4) Body armor is your friend. I don't always wear mine during the worship service because it is hot and uncomfortable, but I am going to recommit myself to it. The first defender who went down would have been much more effective, all else being equal, if he had been wearing a Level IIIA vest.

5) It's the Indian not the arrow. Jack Wilson made a shot that is impressive by any standard, and he did it with what I at least regard as a as a sub-optimal piece of equipment. The DA trigger on a P229 is neither short nor light.

6) There is no substitute for training. Mr. Wilson did not make a "lucky" shot. He had trained hard for a long time and fell to the level of his training. Like the SEAL poem goes: "One shot, one kill, no luck, all skill."

7) Mindset rules the day. Mental preparedness is essential.

How much time do you have shooting double action only or DA/SA pistols? The length and weight of a DA trigger pool has no bearing on its usefulness in practical applications. There is nothing sub optimal about it.

More relevant is knowing and being proficient as possible with your equipment. Kyle Defoor, A great proponent of the use of low power variable optics on carbines noted that many of his military and government client expressed frustration with the optics or gear they were required to use but that early in his own career much of today’s cool guys gear did not exist. In particular he had just been training a military unit that was issued and mandated to use the ACOG. He had advised the young soldiers that while in ACOG might not be his first choice, he could make them “pretty deadly quote with an ACOG.

[OlongJohnson]

... sub-optimal piece of equipment. The DA trigger on a P229 is neither short nor light.

To reinforce what HCM said, my Sig M11-A1 (a railless P229) has an exceptionally smooth and perfectly light enough trigger with a stock hammer spring. It's literally the benchmark I'm trying to get my other DA/SA guns to meet.

A very well respected member here whose contributions have been missed lately has said he's done his best shooting ever with a P228.

Multiple members here have expressed that they are less likely to have fliers with a DA press than with an SA press. I've experienced the same.

For someone who's trained with a classic Sig, the DA is no handicap.

[GJM]

Leaving aside the tragedy of the two parishioners lost, the Texas incident provided “wins” for almost every group.

Starting big picture with government, Texas politicians felt pretty smart for having passed legislation allowing an armed defense that clearly averted worse tragedy here. Trump likes it because it is consistent with his view on guns, and is supported by his base. Republicans like it because they believe guns are good. Democrats like it because they believe guns are bad. Even Joe Biden, not our brightest thinker, remembers how he was “for shotguns” before the Beretta 1301, and a dedicated sub forum here, made them cool again.

Old shooters love it, because the good guy prevailed using a modified Weaver, showing how the Weaver is a “fighting stance,” and mind set trumps fancy shooting skills every time. They excuse Mr Wilson not having a proper caliber, .45, and a proper pistol, a 1911, but no doubt are setting up a Go Fund Me to solve the 1911 oversight.

Red dot shooters like it, because they know the shoot was at the limit of iron sights, and if it was just three pews further, a red dot would have been necessary to save the day. Does get them thinking about the proper distance for a red dot zero, and BUIS, given the piss poor reliability of optics — it would really suck to draw your gun to save the day and have no dot. No doubt, the Modern Samurai will cover all this in an upcoming class.

USPSA shooters love it, because even though the draw doesn’t matter much in USPSA, their skills shooting PCC and Open guns would have come in darn handy that day. Plus, that first shotgun blast was pretty close to the beep from a Pocket Pro II with a fresh battery. IDPA hasn’t been this excited since the Kenya intervention by an IDPA shooter there. The good guy, Mr Wilson, had a proper IDPA vest, and no doubt this scenario will be done as a stage at the next indoor IDPA Nationals. Even the hero had the right IDPA name — “Wilson.”

Technical Timmies are in heaven. Poor guy got himself killed because he didn’t have even a dark pin draw. A turbo draw from the hero might have gotten the bad guy with no good guy fatalities. If only there was an appendix holster on the security team, a draw from sitting would be cake (of course no sitting reholstering unless SCD equipped). There are probably a half dozen drills of the week possible from this event.

Ammo makers like it, because sales of .357 Sig will likely double, from the 2019 weekly average of 18 boxes of 20 cartridges, all the way to 36 boxes, at least for a few weeks. Sig USA is thrilled, because the last time anyone said anything positive about the P229 — well, it has been so long, not even Sig can remember. Also how nice for Sig to be in the news for their product dropping the bad guy instead of being dropped by the good guy, and then shooting the good guy.

Gun forum owners love it, because it has spawned pages of new discussion, keeping things active until the Glock 44 starts shipping and we can discuss what sights regulate and what rimfire ammo has the fewest misfires.

Evangelicals love it because it proves people still go to church, and church is important enough to shoot up. It probably helps male attendance, as guys that would go to the range on Sunday now kit up and head to church hoping to see the elephant. It also reinforces why the ladies need to look their best at church, since they can end up on national TV when least expected.

Mexico loves it, because it shows crazy stuff happens places other than Mexico. Not even a suggestion a wall would have prevented this event. Muslims appear to have dodged a bullet with this event. Even the FBI looks like they didn’t miss preventing this — unlike that darn last Texas thing or two.

So, as they say, success has many parents, and only failure is an orphan. I hope Mr Wilson drinks, because he won’t be buying a drink for the rest of his days on earth.

[JodyH]

I like it because by page 15 of the discussion thread we get the coolest posts.

[YVK]

GJM. Motherfucker, this is your best post on the p-f. With all this shit going around, this comic relief is the best NYE gift I could ask for.

[Lex Luthier]

Leaving aside the tragedy of the two parishioners lost, the Texas incident provided “wins” for almost every group.

Starting big picture with government, Texas politicians felt pretty smart for having passed legislation allowing an armed defense that clearly averted worse tragedy here. Trump likes it because it is consistent with his view on guns, and is supported by his base. Republicans like it because they believe guns are good. Democrats like it because they believe guns are bad. Even Joe Biden, not our brightest thinker, remembers how he was “for shotguns” before the Beretta 1301, and a dedicated sub forum here, made them cool again.

Old shooters love it, because the good guy prevailed using a modified Weaver, showing how the Weaver is a “fighting stance,” and mind set trumps fancy shooting skills every time. They excuse Mr Wilson not having a proper caliber, .45, and a proper pistol, a 1911, but no doubt are setting up a Go Fund Me to solve the 1911 oversight.

Red dot shooters like it, because they know the shoot was at the limit of iron sights, and if it was just three pews further, a red dot would have been necessary to save the day. Does get them thinking about the proper distance for a red dot zero, and BUIS, given the piss poor reliability of optics — it would really suck to draw your gun to save the day and have no dot. No doubt, the Modern Samurai will cover all this in an upcoming class.

USPSA shooters love it, because even though the draw doesn’t matter much in USPSA, their skills shooting PCC and Open guns would have come in darn handy that day. Plus, that first shotgun blast was pretty close to the beep from a Pocket Pro II with a fresh battery. IDPA hasn’t been this excited since the Kenya intervention by an IDPA shooter there. The good guy, Mr Wilson, had a proper IDPA vest, and no doubt this scenario will be done as a stage at the next indoor IDPA Nationals. Even the hero had the right IDPA name — “Wilson.”

Technical Timmies are in heaven. Poor guy got himself killed because he didn’t have even a dark pin draw. A turbo draw from the hero might have gotten the bad guy with no good guy fatalities. If only there was an appendix holster on the security team, a draw from sitting would be cake (of course no sitting reholstering unless SCD equipped). There are probably a half dozen drills of the week possible from this event.

Ammo makers like it, because sales of .357 Sig will likely double, from the 2019 weekly average of 18 boxes of 20 cartridges, all the way to 36 boxes, at least for a few weeks. Sig USA is thrilled, because the last time anyone said anything positive about the P229 — well, it has been so long, not even Sig can remember. Also how nice for Sig to be in the news for their product dropping the bad guy instead of being dropped by the good guy, and then shooting the good guy.

Gun forum owners love it, because it has spawned pages of new discussion, keeping things active until the Glock 44 starts shipping and we can discuss what sights regulate and what rimfire ammo has the fewest misfires.

Evangelicals love it because it proves people still go to church, and church is important enough to shoot up. It probably helps male attendance, as guys that would go to the range on Sunday now kit up and head to church hoping to see the elephant. It also reinforces why the ladies need to look their best at church, since they can end up on national TV when least expected.

Mexico loves it, because it shows crazy stuff happens places other than Mexico. Not even a suggestion a wall would have prevented this event. Muslims appear to have dodged a bullet with this event. Even the FBI looks like they didn’t miss preventing this — unlike that darn last Texas thing or two.

So, as they say, success has many parents, and only failure is an orphan. I hope Mr Wilson drinks, because he won’t be buying a drink for the rest of his days on earth.


Dang, George (May I call you George?) I've seen posts of yours that exhibit an acerbic slant, but never quite so savage nor so bitterly funny. Thanks for that.

[Yung]

Last bit of negativity for the year.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/elviadiaz/2019/12/31/jack-wilson-white-settlement-shooting-how-keith-kinnunen-got-gun/2781431001/



He wasn’t just an ordinary parishioner, as gun advocates may want you to believe. The church’s volunteer security team member is a firearms instructor, gun range owner and former reserve deputy with a local sheriff’s department, according to a New York Times detailed account.

In other words, he’s exactly the kind of man you want around with a firearm. But we know nothing about the at least six other parishioners who also appeared to draw their handguns at West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, Texas.

And that's terrifying.

[Kanye Wyoming]

GJM. Motherfucker, this is your best post on the p-f. With all this shit going around, this comic relief is the best NYE gift I could ask for.


Dang, George (May I call you George?) I've seen posts of yours that exhibit an acerbic slant, but never quite so savage nor so bitterly funny. Thanks for that.
Ditto. And just in time to snag post of the year.

[Hambo]

Last bit of negativity for the year.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/elviadiaz/2019/12/31/jack-wilson-white-settlement-shooting-how-keith-kinnunen-got-gun/2781431001/

This is proof that you will never, ever, convince some people that it OK to own or carry guns.

[NH Shooter]

Mr. Wilson, BTW, is 71 years old. There's hope for us old pistol packers!

[BillSWPA]

Last bit of negativity for the year.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/elviadiaz/2019/12/31/jack-wilson-white-settlement-shooting-how-keith-kinnunen-got-gun/2781431001/

The media is making quite a big deal about Jack Wilson’s status as a reserve deputy for a few years in the 1980’s. While this apparently involved a small time commitment in his case, reserve deputy means very little. In some southern states, reserve deputy cards were freely given out by sheriffs to anyone with no criminal record who wanted to be able to carry a gun in the days before nondiscriminatory concealed handgun licensing. This just shows the media’s willingness to distort the truth to present the narrative they wish to present.

Of course if guns were not so readily available, the shooter would never have had the shotgun in the first place, just like we have completely eliminated the drug problem by banning drugs, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gray Ghost]

How much time do you have shooting double action only or DA/SA pistols? The length and weight of a DA trigger pool has no bearing on its usefulness in practical applications. There is nothing sub optimal about it.

More relevant is knowing and being proficient as possible with your equipment. Kyle Defoor, A great proponent of the use of low power variable optics on carbines noted that many of his military and government client expressed frustration with the optics or gear they were required to use but that early in his own career much of today’s cool guys gear did not exist. In particular he had just been training a military unit that was issued and mandated to use the ACOG. He had advised the young soldiers that while in ACOG might not be his first choice, he could make them “pretty deadly quote with an ACOG.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I used to be a firearms instructor for a small agency that issued Sig P229's and have known some solid shooters who have carried them professionally. It is certainly possible to learn to shoot well with the P229 despite the long, heavy DA pull. There are plenty of guys who can shoot much better with one than I can shoot with a striker-fired gun or a 1911. That said, I don't think you can seriously argue that the DA trigger on a P229 is an advantage when it comes to drawing and make a fast hit on a moving target. All else being equal, it would be better to have a gun with a shorter, lighter trigger.

To the extent DA/SA has any advantages, they are that it is harder to shoot something you didn't mean to. That is not an advantage when you have made the decision to pull the trigger. I generally carry H&K LEM pistols as a compromise between the two extremes of being able to shoot fast and accurately and not shooting myself or something else I didn't meant to.

If you are in a job where you have to carry the gun you are issued, then obviously you should learn to shoot it as well as you can.

As I said in my original post this is just my (somewhat educated) opinion. Also, I stand the point of my comment that it's the Indian, not the arrow.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Mr. Wilson, BTW, is 71 years old. There's hope for us old pistol packers!

Just turned 72. An older friend of mine told me that his church might not consider him for their team as he is too old.

[NH Shooter]

Just turned 72. An older friend of mine told me that his church might not consider him for their team as he is too old.

A day at the range for the applicants would no doubt provide clarity. ;-)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It is well known that a rule of self-proclaimed mastery is never to demonstrate it.

[blues]

Just turned 72. An older friend of mine told me that his church might not consider him for their team as he is too old.

Not unreasonable under many circumstances...judging by the mental and physical condition of most Americans. That said, if he's physically fit and mentally sound, (not to mention capable with his firearm), then it might warrant reconsideration. I keep myself fit...but I'm not as strong nor do I possess the same cardio I did years ago...and I still have a handful of years before I reach the age you're discussing.

If there's nothing to stop him from carrying in church, I see no major harm done, especially if he can let those on the team know so he doesn't get targeted in an incident.

[fixer]

Some of the best shooters at the Hobbs matches I got to are in or damn close to their 70s.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree that competency is the criterion. I have seen an older shooter or two start to have significant problems related to safety and following directions.

I wouldn't have anyone on a team with some kind of competency test. Let them carry on their own. If they are official, there need to be some standards.

[Casual Friday]

One of our "greeters" is 70 or 71. Mentally sound, physically fit, and is a decent pistol shot. Businessman, staying active even into retirement and not wrecking his body with harsh physical labor for 40+ years plays a factor there.

There are other 60-70ish year old men in our church who are just not up to the task.

There are some 30, 40, and 50 year old men who aren't up for it either.

It just all depends on the person.

[GJM]

Has anyone carefully studied the video to see when and if Mr. Wilson decocked his Sig?

[TGS]

Has anyone carefully studied the video to see when and if Mr. Wilson decocked his Sig?

Doesn't seem to have the requisite video quality to ascertain such, to me.

[GJM]

Doesn't seem to have the requisite video quality to ascertain such, to me.

I couldn’t see it. Wasn’t trying to be critical, just curious given our past forum discussions on this topic.

[Spartan1980]

Has anyone carefully studied the video to see when and if Mr. Wilson decocked his Sig?

Do we know for sure it wasn't a DAO or DAK?

[SiriusBlunder]

I couldn’t see it. Wasn’t trying to be critical, just curious given our past forum discussions on this topic.

Couldn't tell, but I don't know if it was a DAK, DAO, or TDA.

ETA: Jinx

[HCountyGuy]

Has anyone carefully studied the video to see when and if Mr. Wilson decocked his Sig?

As TGS said the video quality doesn’t appear to be good enough to discern such, and I’ve looked at it on at least a 32” screen. There does seem to be what could be considered an administrative pause immediately after Mr. Wilson fires, in which he may have decocked. I imagine the only way to know for sure would be to ask Mr. Wilson.

[Yung]

Mr. Wilson, BTW, is 71 years old. There's hope for us old pistol packers!

I usually joke to anyone who wants to listen to me talk about GSSF Indoor League is that the secret to winning is to be retired.

[Doc_Glock]

Wasn’t the Sig 229 in .357 SIG standard issue for the Air Marshals, who were somewhat renowned for the difficulty of their pistol qualification?

I don’t see how his equipment was at all a handicap.

[HCM]

Do we know for sure it wasn't a DAO or DAK?

Certainly possible. Several local agencies in the DFW area adopted SIG 226 and 229 DAKs 15 or so years ago following the TX DPS switch from DA/SA .357 SIG’s to DAK .357 SIG’s. There were a big batch of trade in 229 DAK .357s on the market in TX about 5 or 6 years ago. I recall them because some of them were being fraudulently marketed as former Federal Air Marshal guns. If I recall correctly, many came from Grapevine PD.

[HCM]

Wasn’t the Sig 229 in .357 SIG standard issue for the Air Marshals, who were somewhat renowned for the difficulty of their pistol qualification?

I don’t see how his equipment was at all a handicap.

Yes, not to mention that for a skilled DA shooter, the DA pull can produce better results than the SA.

[HCM]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I used to be a firearms instructor for a small agency that issued Sig P229's and have known some solid shooters who have carried them professionally. It is certainly possible to learn to shoot well with the P229 despite the long, heavy DA pull. There are plenty of guys who can shoot much better with one than I can shoot with a striker-fired gun or a 1911. That said, I don't think you can seriously argue that the DA trigger on a P229 is an advantage when it comes to drawing and make a fast hit on a moving target. All else being equal, it would be better to have a gun with a shorter, lighter trigger.

To the extent DA/SA has any advantages, they are that it is harder to shoot something you didn't mean to. That is not an advantage when you have made the decision to pull the trigger. I generally carry H&K LEM pistols as a compromise between the two extremes of being able to shoot fast and accurately and not shooting myself or something else I didn't meant to.

If you are in a job where you have to carry the gun you are issued, then obviously you should learn to shoot it as well as you can.

As I said in my original post this is just my (somewhat educated) opinion. Also, I stand the point of my comment that it's the Indian, not the arrow.

Agree 100% it’s the Indian, not the arrow. Having also taught and run firearms training for an agency that has issued or approved: revolvers & DASA, DAO, LEM and DAO, and back to DAK, striker, and DASA over the years there are some skill set dynamics going on.

Striker fired guns, LEM, and SA triggers tend to favor trained people in the middle of the bell curve.

DA (DASA, DAK, DAO) tend to favor the people on the ends of the bell curve. For the less skilled / trained the length of the DA pull is an additional safety measure. For those on the opposite end, the DA pull is no hinderance. Rather it can aid with consistency and timing issues when shooting at a high level.

I’ve seen this in PPC shooters who used DAO guns because they shot more consistently, even at 50 yards under time pressure DA. It was also not unheard of for people running DA/SA guns such as Beretta 92s and SIG p226/Mk25 to take top shooter in Gunsite classes because knowing and being effective with your chosen or issued equipment is part of the whole Indian not arrow equation.

From an organizational POV, it takes more time and resources to train the masses with DA/SA to the same level as a striker fired or even DAK/LEM gun. I get that logic, and even among high level shooters it’s not for everyone but you wouldnt see high level USPSA shooters running CZ and Beretta DA/SA if it was a real impediment. Which brings up that how we think of things effects performance. IME of the keys to getting “over the hump” with DA /SA is to stop thinking of it as two different trigger pulls since they break at the same point.

[Clusterfrack]

HCM, as a CZ shooter in USPSA, and a CZ carrier, I agree—mostly. But a very heavy DA pull just isn’t as easy to make tight shots with as a 4-8lb pull. Given the choice and a shot like Wilson made, I’d much rather have a DA pull 8lb or lighter.

[1Rangemaster]

Epic post, GJM! I do note the personal tragedies of the families of the two church members murdered, and will say a prayer for them. That said, “I resemble that...” A semi retired Deputy, who is a Firearms Instructor, and only a few years away from being a septuagenarian. I hope I would be up to the task, if evil comes my way. I find some comments here interesting; I do ascribe to the comment, “Indian, not arrow”, and would add, “Indian who practices(and prepares mentally, etc.). I don’t think, within reason, the hardware means much. Jim Cirillo has some notable headshots, as have others-to take nothing away from Mr. Wilson. A .38 Special revolver, a single action Colt.45(1875 or 1911 vintage) and perhaps even a GLOCK 9MOS would probably have sufficed in the proper hands, to paraphrase Mr. Cooper. And those 71 year old hands were up to the challenge. I’ll be practicing tomorrow, to include the “Double Test”. I’m mildly interested in the backstory of the murderer. By some reports the legal system may have failed here again.
Stance, grip, gear; all worked for him. I don’t even care if he went for “center mass” and hit a bit high-that could be a possibility-but the result speaks for itself.
I carried DA Sigs and Smiths in uniform. I’m not sure I would have decocked; finger straight, move forward to contact.
Well done, Mr. Wilson. Please pay no heed to the cowardly press and naysayers, and Godspeed, sir.

[nycnoob]

Texas church shooting hero shares his side of the story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciJclao2TM&feature=emb_title



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciJclao2TM&amp;feature=emb_title

[JodyH]

Great video.
Jack Wilson seems to be a really good "old school" firearms instructor/enthusiast straight out of the Cooper Gunsite mold.

[Inspector71]

Striker fired guns, LEM, and SA triggers tend to favor trained people in the middle of the bell curve.

DA (DASA, DAK, DAO) tend to favor the people on the ends of the bell curve. For the less skilled / trained the length of the DA pull is an additional safety measure. For those on the opposite end, the DA pull is no hinderance. Rather it can aid with consistency and timing issues when shooting at a high level.





Very well stated. So true.

[1Rangemaster]

Thanks, nycnoob, for that video link.
I appreciate that he had one shot(“window”) and he took it.

[MistWolf]

...and the Moron Morning Quarterbacks are bleating-
https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/81636376_2541044709500145_2933260864129597440_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=Ov77uZomqyUAQmW_7OxPfl926gXKlhCnccam94Aiq0 5hJbYPHSNk3wuzA&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=fd6a7d02cda3bd7c30d0b03671773f4e&oe=5E9FCC04

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One should start a terrorist shooting school that emphasis the nonlethal leg, stomach, arms, genitals, etc. targeting. Enroll all the folks that the Feds are watching or on Red Flags lists.

Jessica = gives new meaning to idiot.

[blues]

The year is only into its second day and we already have the winner of the stupidest person of the year. Are there any representatives from the Darwin Awards here?

[Clusterfrack]

One should start a terrorist shooting school that emphasis the nonlethal leg, stomach, arms, genitals, etc. targeting. Enroll all the folks that the Feds are watching or on Red Flags lists.

Jessica = gives new meaning to idiot.

Or just shoot the gun out of his hands.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200102/7645d0128afdb36ca8f29646b835fd61.jpg

[Duces Tecum]

Let’s keep in mind that the statements Joe Biden made weren’t a response to this shooting. The video interview was from immediately after Gov. Abbott signed the bill into law, allowing carry in churches. While I’m not a fan of Joe Biden, it’s disingenuous to imply that he stated these things in response to this shooting.

Then Biden has repudiated his earlier position?

Consider Mrs. Clinton's comment on Sept 09, 2016, regarding deplorability. Has she recanted? Short of full recantation, is it unreasonable to believe her position remains the same?

As you say, it would indeed be disingenuous to argue that Biden still supports a position that he earlier publically recanted. But I am not aware of him doing such a thing and do not believe that, in the absence of revocation, it is disingenuous to hold him to his earlier comments.

[S Jenks]

Her account was hacked.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200102/e22220fcec90149751d91b11bfe9a4e0.jpg

[Darth_Uno]

Right, because any and all bullets will drop you like a sack of felonious potatoes. Thanks Hollywood.

Being somewhat local to it, I remember the same thing with the Michael Brown story. "Why didn't they just shoot him in the knee?" My most downvoted post ever on Reddit is when I challenged anyone to take up to one year to practice for it, and tell me if they still thought that was a realistic option.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Remember our discussion of how some officers were told to miss a shot at qualifications so you won't be asked why you didn't shoot him in the leg or shoot the gun out of his hand. I brought that up when a guy who said he was a sniper told me to miss some at my TX CHL test for that reason. I thought he was nuts but some folks here said they heard the same thing.

I was thinking that we should have public service announcements telling terrorists to shoot victims in the knee.

[SAWBONES]

Or just shoot the gun out of his hands.

Yeah, that's what the Lone Ranger always did! :rolleyes:

[TheNewbie]

Or just shoot the gun out of his hands.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200102/7645d0128afdb36ca8f29646b835fd61.jpg

I am friends with a guy who did this. Not on purpose, but the guy was about to pull it on two other officers.

Shot the dudes trigger finger off. Even the suspect told the officer "good shot".

[GJM]

In terms of Monday morning quarterbacking, while I would expect if from the left, I am surprised how much is coming from gun folks. The suggestion that Mr Wilson was too slow, and that cost lives, strikes me as armchair quarterbacking in the extreme. Also have read that he should have shot for the chest and his shot was obviously a miss that lucked into the head. My view is that most people in that church are very fortunate he was there.

[medmo]

https://youtu.be/kciJclao2TM

“You have to practice, continuously practice, to be able to hit the target put in front of you.”

Practice well my friends. Continuously practice.

[HCM]

https://youtu.be/kciJclao2TM

“You have to practice, continuously practice, to be able to hit the target put in front of you.”

Practice well my friends. Continuously practice.


https://youtu.be/kciJclao2TM

[parishioner]

As the saying goes “the harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

Definitely can be applied to many facets of life.

[0ddl0t]

The suggestion that Mr Wilson was too slow, and that cost lives, strikes me as armchair quarterbacking in the extreme.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect all pistol owners to be able to make an on demand headshot at 12 yards under that kind of stress, but I think anybody ought to have a <2.5sec draw from concealment after 1 day of holster practice. Had Mr. Wilson been able to combine his marksmanship with a competent draw, he may well have saved another life.

That isn't assigning blame, but it is valuable to know that fractions of a second = lives in a mass shooting, especially when so few ranges allow drawing from the holster. According to that video interview (12:00-12:35), Mr. Wilson even said he teaches his students to pick up their guns from a table and shoot.


Also have read that he should have shot for the chest and his shot was obviously a miss that lucked into the head.
He said that he aimed for the head because parishioners did not get down fast enough. The video backs him up:

Wilson's shot breaking (note at least 2 parishioners still sitting upright between Wilson & the perp):
46649

[Warped Mindless]

Wilson is a hero, a good shot, and seems to be a very nice guy. That said, this event has many lessons and respectfully analyzing the actions of all involved isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[GJM]

I don't think it is reasonable to expect all pistol owners to be able to make an on demand headshot at 12 yards under that kind of stress, but I think anybody ought to have a <2.5sec draw from concealment after 1 day of holster practice. Had Mr. Wilson been able to combine his marksmanship with a competent draw, he may well have saved another life.

That isn't assigning blame, but it is valuable to know that fractions of a second = lives in a mass shooting, especially when so few ranges allow drawing from the holster. According to that video interview (12:00-12:35), Mr. Wilson even said he teaches his students to pick up their guns from a table and shoot.


He said that he aimed for the head because parishioners did not get down fast enough. The video backs him up:

Wilson's shot breaking (note at least 2 parishioners still sitting upright between Wilson & the perp):
46649

Are you suggesting his draw was slow, if kitted up on the range, and responding to a timer, or in this situation, where you has to go from zero to taking a life, shooting over parishioners and the consequences of being early or wrong would be live-streamed, making you a nationwide pariah?

[0ddl0t]

Are you suggesting his draw was slow, if kitted up on the range, and responding to a timer, or in this situation, where you has to go from zero to taking a life, shooting over parishioners and the consequences of being early or wrong would be live-streamed, making you a nationwide pariah?

Any way you slice it, his draw was slow.

Predraw:
46657

Head lifts slightly & arm moves for gun:
46658

Still clearing/drawing after 1 second:
46659

Perp's 1st shot, about 2 seconds after Wilson's initial physical reaction.
46660

Perp's 2nd shot, nearly 3 seconds after Wilson's initial physical reaction. Wilson is just now joining his hands to present:
46661

Gun finally being presented after 3+ seconds.
46662


It is not as if he had a 2.5 second draw and then spent another 2 seconds deciding whether to shoot. In fact, once he finally got the gun to eye level, he didn't waste much time making a very difficult shot so I don't see this as a shoot/no shoot decision delay. It is just an unpracticed 3+ second draw to eye level (~3.75 seconds to shot) - and that's not counting the initial reaction time before his arm began moving to his gun (at least another 1/4 second).

It looks to me like a guy who never practiced drawing from a concealed holster, but who still spent a lot of time on the range practicing acquiring the sights from a low ready (or, as it turns out from his interview, a table pickup).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Lots of tactical virtue signaling going on. Of course, all folks who walk around in Condition Orange, would have blah, blah, blah. I'm with GJM. A two second draw from already being prepped for a signal, with a known target, etc. is not the same as this situation in terms of information processing, perception and reaction time. Getting a sight picture and making a difficult shot (including figuring out that this was the best option) - all takes time. It was in fact impressive that he did that.

Folks were more positive on George Zimmerman's draw stroke. That's sarcasm.

[Trukinjp13]

This dude was on point. He probably knew a lot of the people that were also carrying. He is well trained and also knew that sometimes making sure that he had a clean shot before he drew is the best bet. I think he simply was processing the situation and when he felt it safest he drew and put down the scumbag. Bravo to him in my eyes.

Ain’t no keyboard warrior there. He trained and he executed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wvincent]

Lots of tactical virtue signaling going on. Of course, all folks who walk around in Condition Orange, would have blah, blah, blah. I'm with GJM. A two second draw from already being prepped for a signal, with a known target, etc. is not the same as this situation in terms of information processing, perception and reaction time. Getting a sight picture and making a difficult shot (including figuring out that this was the best option) - all takes time. It was in fact impressive that he did that.

Folks were more positive on George Zimmerman's draw stroke. That's sarcasm.

Well said Glenn. At the end of the day, many of us could only hope to do as well.
It was clean, on a live, moving target.

With no precursors to cue you up that an attack is imminent, that data dump on the brain is going to be huge.

I guess that is what the "shooting at the speed of thought' looks like.

I'm sure he could have shaved a full second off his time if some one would have been gracious enough to give him a "shooter ready".

[Welder]

I am completely unable to understand the criticism being leveled at Wilson for being 'slow.'

Is it that the person making those statements just hasn't lived much yet? Or have they not yet been in situations where instantaneous and violent understanding, decision-making, and physical reactions are required?

I've had my life saved twice by men who had presence of mind when it mattered. I know of two times where I've done the same for another. (I'm talking machinery here; stuff that will chew a person up and spit soup out the other end when things go wrong. This isn't driving a car where everything has been engineered to give you a fighting chance to live even if you're a complete idiot.)

One of my family members and two of my previous co-workers have been violently killed over the years when they lost the race between time and understanding. No mind-altering substances were involved. Sometimes we run up against the thing that we're just not equipped to survive. Such was the case with the two ushers who were killed here. It wasn't Wilson's fault.

I get the feeling that a lot of people on the internet have never been anywhere close, not within a mile of, anything remotely resembling a real life or death situation where only they hold the controls and there's no warning that it's about to happen. So out of touch that they don't know what they don't know. I love shooting, and I'm acceptable at it, but playing gun games against a timer doesn't give you much insight into what it's like to watch things go horribly wrong in real life. The man's speed and accuracy of reaction are to be praised.

[JohnO]

Chuck Pressburg allows 3.5 seconds for a 25 yard No Fail pistol shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L8TNhE3Lac

Mr. Wilson had just watched two friends eat lead. If they were your friends do you get a pause to say, Fuck! Your mind/emotions just might interrupt what you are setting out to do.

Seeing the elephant and running the OODA loop for real is a little different than, Shooter ready, Beep. He had to shoot over moving people on a moving target and stated he needed to wait for a "window". He stated that the head was the only shot he had available. He hit what he aimed at, No Fail. If you watched the video above to the end what Chuck described as the imposed consequences of a Fail was on a paper, Wilson's target was real.

Arguing about the number of seconds elapsed given the circumstances and the outcome is pointless.

[Cookie Monster]

Could I make that shot currently on the range? Probably.

Could I have made that shot in those circumstances, in my current life? No way.

Fast forward 30 years from my current 40 year old body and eyes. No fucking way.

We need to take up a collection and send that man a wallet with “Bad Motherfucker” on it.

[GardoneVT]

Let’s take a moment & refocus . On one hand , the security member made the right move at the right time. On the other, every incident regardless of outcome has points of improvement. Making those points doesn’t change the facts of the event or the outcome. It’s also not a critique about who has or hasn’t seen hostile acts.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

On the other, every incident regardless of outcome has points of improvement.

As most every female, has thought about almost every male in some performance circumstances.

You might say it was a 'PERFECT' shot.

[Clusterfrack]

It’s worth pointing out that this is the type of shooting problem that Mr_White covers in his class.

[Trooper224]

Here's a way to thin the flotsam from this discussion: everyone who's actually shot someone and gone through that mental process and execution feel free to comment. The rest of you keyboard commandos sit down and let the grownups talk, because you don't know shit. Those church folks rose to the occasion and delivered.

[NETim]

Here's a way to thin the flotsam from this discussion: everyone who's actually shot someone and gone through that mental process and execution feel free to comment. The rest of you keyboard commandos sit down and let the grownups talk, because you don't know shit. Those church folks rose to the occasion and delivered.

I don't know shit. I'll be the first to admit that. :)

But I would like to remind everyone that Mr. Wilson is 71 years old.

[NETim]

As the saying goes “the harder I practice, the luckier I get.”

Definitely can be applied to many facets of life.

Train hard. Fight easier.

[HCM]

Here's a way to thin the flotsam from this discussion: everyone who's actually shot someone and gone through that mental process and execution feel free to comment. The rest of you keyboard commandos sit down and let the grownups talk, because you don't know shit. Those church folks rose to the occasion and delivered.

Then there is this POV:


You are looking into the eyes of a happy murderer, Jack Wilson. ....Before the service, everyone who saw Keith Thomas Kinnunen knew he needed help and was strangely in their church, but not a single church-goer spoke, offered comfort, suggested companionship, or aided homeless Keith Thomas Kinnunen. After Keith Thomas Kinnunen shot twice, and was walking out or away, a crazy gun lunatic brandished a weapon, endangered 242 innocent bystanders, and shot the victim, Keith Thomas Kinnunen, dead. The church murderer, who brought a weapon to church for ten years to murder others, Jack Wilson, needs to be charged for endangering 242 innocent bystanders. Gunman Jack Wilson murdered a fellow church attendee walking away, in the church, so the crazed gunman Jack Wilson needs to be rehabilitated in prison, to protect us from fools like him who think it is safe and normal to discharge guns into crowded buildings including churches.

https://www.facebook.com/pfritzphd?__tn__=C-y.g&eid=ARDX9_eVAY96scAB2idO69H2JBs5ut4t8N07DWjdt4OvnB iPJqJtdaEzsJYrDj4Ss4BTxklSZgMdOwUk&hc_ref=ARQKTnW_9ZV4fwua73BU86jR1VzGImxZg6xDrQOHFle rSpEkSBKzlx1NouLkMk4vT0g&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARBr9nhUk6jsDHJtigTQOVQgFJGxhUaGjffEVvxyZ5zqu3 r2PsPwCfeoi5hBA-LBcO8JAbW6BOj7Rxr6bF7fdqp9UaTRLhmJXA9JMgWzSVz1oTCV 20FKMxgMLplNaVhi-YyGu6tvTd4r2axRB-vjNYkhIRlPrzg7ipzxH-g_EPpdRyE5vrR1VwRJttX-ofWjgKnbGlWUiWaKU8dINbfnClxBMHxbAGZ2GaOCZpTwZmYCPK retnJwke4-ORqJ68RoEtWCKlDdUkCHlBANRusix3T879_O45AXJnkew3Qn14 urVc0lu0ceqePFRHlJZlvp_3tphmI1xVBEcVN1L12mp1NiOFqM 54xma98w_K9_w2B9-L1O

[blues]

Where do we find such people? :confused:

[HCM]

Where do we find such people? :confused:

Apparently Williamston Michigan.

[blues]

Apparently Williamston Michigan.

I know a gal who would be perfect for him...

(Or her...I unacceptably assumed gender and preference for some reason. Mea maxima culpa.)

[Caballoflaco]

Then there is this POV:



https://www.facebook.com/pfritzphd?__tn__=C-y.g&eid=ARDX9_eVAY96scAB2idO69H2JBs5ut4t8N07DWjdt4OvnB iPJqJtdaEzsJYrDj4Ss4BTxklSZgMdOwUk&hc_ref=ARQKTnW_9ZV4fwua73BU86jR1VzGImxZg6xDrQOHFle rSpEkSBKzlx1NouLkMk4vT0g&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARBr9nhUk6jsDHJtigTQOVQgFJGxhUaGjffEVvxyZ5zqu3 r2PsPwCfeoi5hBA-LBcO8JAbW6BOj7Rxr6bF7fdqp9UaTRLhmJXA9JMgWzSVz1oTCV 20FKMxgMLplNaVhi-YyGu6tvTd4r2axRB-vjNYkhIRlPrzg7ipzxH-g_EPpdRyE5vrR1VwRJttX-ofWjgKnbGlWUiWaKU8dINbfnClxBMHxbAGZ2GaOCZpTwZmYCPK retnJwke4-ORqJ68RoEtWCKlDdUkCHlBANRusix3T879_O45AXJnkew3Qn14 urVc0lu0ceqePFRHlJZlvp_3tphmI1xVBEcVN1L12mp1NiOFqM 54xma98w_K9_w2B9-L1O

Dude, you’re sharing the post of a nobody from Michigan on Facebook who only has 98 friends and giving them an audience. Your contributions here are normally well thought out and add value even if I don’t agree 100% with you.

This post just seems like so much useless rage-porn to me.

[HCM]

Dude, you’re sharing the post of a nobody from Michigan on Facebook who only has 98 friends and giving them an audience. Your contributions here are normally well thought out and add value even if I don’t agree 100% with you.

This post just seems like so much useless rage-porn to me.

I shared it because I know people who would agree with it 100%. It is a perfect exemplar of their thinking. We get so wrapped into the gunbro vs derps and fudds bubble we forget there are people this disconnected from reality.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Well, I'm waiting for the unchambered, Israeil carry foks to chime in on why Wilson wasn't a safe shooter. Just saying.

[Spartan1980]

Dude, you’re sharing the post of a nobody from Michigan on Facebook who only has 98 friends and giving them an audience. Your contributions here are normally well thought out and add value even if I don’t agree 100% with you.

This post just seems like so much useless rage-porn to me.

Look at some of the replies in that post. He has people lunatics agreeing with him.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

With Bloomberg and Biden denouncing the very concept of carry for self-defense, the sentiments are main stream in the political classes. Note the even the GOP has not gone to wall for reciprocity (granted the instantiation was under debate). Having the peasants armed is not a popular idea for the ruling classes.

[GJM]

Here's a way to thin the flotsam from this discussion: everyone who's actually shot someone and gone through that mental process and execution feel free to comment. The rest of you keyboard commandos sit down and let the grownups talk, because you don't know shit. Those church folks rose to the occasion and delivered.

I see both sides of this. On one hand, we don’t want people talking out their ass on things they are clueless about, and expressing sentiments that underscore their lack of critical thinking. On the other hand, especially in a General Discussion thread, if the standard is, for example, you need to have shot someone to discuss civilian use of force, killed a bear to discuss bear guns, or been PIC of a 737 Max to discuss that issue, we are going to have about six posts a month in most threads.

[JohnO]

I see both sides of this. On one hand, we don’t want people talking out their ass on things they are clueless about, and expressing sentiments that underscore their lack of critical thinking. On the other hand, especially in a General Discussion thread, if the standard is, for example, you need to have shot someone to discuss civilian use of force, killed a bear to discuss bear guns, or been PIC of a 737 Max to discuss that issue, we are going to have about six posts a month in most threads.

Good points. Also I think people learn by reading want gets said and the criticism it may or may not receive. Having a sounding board is a good thing. Using it with a critical mind is even better.

[blues]

I hope the folks in Monsey wouldn't have been mortified by having someone like Mr. Wilson in their midst...(though they maybe could be forgiven for being mortified for the need.)

(I don't presume to know, however.)

[Trooper224]

I see both sides of this. On one hand, we don’t want people talking out their ass on things they are clueless about, and expressing sentiments that underscore their lack of critical thinking. On the other hand, especially in a General Discussion thread, if the standard is, for example, you need to have shot someone to discuss civilian use of force, killed a bear to discuss bear guns, or been PIC of a 737 Max to discuss that issue, we are going to have about six posts a month in most threads.

I can ask you questions about flying a plane all day long and that's fine. Having never flown one, what I shouldn't do is tell you how it should be done. The former is self education, the latter is being an ass hat.

[blues]

I can ask you questions about flying a plane all day long and that's fine. Having never flown one, what I shouldn't do is tell you how it should be done. The former is self education, the latter is being an ass hat.

I think it's fair, however, to remember that not everyone carrying a badge and gun has made the right choices before, during or after a gunfight. So, it still pays to evaluate the source...whomever that source may be.

And I still stand by my initial posts...Mr. Wilson did one hell of a job.

[Trooper224]

I think it's fair, however, to remember that not everyone carrying a badge and gun has made the right choices before, during or after a gunfight. So, it still pays to evaluate the source...whomever that source may be.

And I still stand by my initial posts...Mr. Wilson did one hell of a job.

Fair point.

[JHC]

In terms of Monday morning quarterbacking, while I would expect if from the left, I am surprised how much is coming from gun folks. The suggestion that Mr Wilson was too slow, and that cost lives, strikes me as armchair quarterbacking in the extreme. Also have read that he should have shot for the chest and his shot was obviously a miss that lucked into the head. My view is that most people in that church are very fortunate he was there.

A feller with a fuckton of gunfighting experience tells me he was quite impressed by Wilson. He called it “solid work” which is his expression for what I call spectacular ;) . He also notes assessment can be pretty tricky.

If I wasn’t looking through Wilson’s eyes I don’t know what he saw when. But from his hand starting the draw to this shot was plenty good for real shit.

[GJM]

I can ask you questions about flying a plane all day long and that's fine. Having never flown one, what I shouldn't do is tell you how it should be done. The former is self education, the latter is being an ass hat.

Half the people in Alaska, without a pilot’s license, think they know how the plane should be flown, so this issue is not unique to gun forums. I think John O nailed it above — participate, but expect candid feedback.

[0ddl0t]

The commentary that gets me is from all those saying "God/Jesus/an angel helped him make that shot." No, Wilson's extensive training & practice helped him take that shot. God helps those who help themselves!


Lots of tactical virtue signaling going on. Of course, all folks who walk around in Condition Orange, would have blah, blah, blah. I'm with GJM. A two second draw from already being prepped for a signal, with a known target, etc. is not the same as this situation in terms of information processing, perception and reaction time. Getting a sight picture and making a difficult shot (including figuring out that this was the best option) - all takes time.


I think he simply was processing the situation and when he felt it safest he drew and put down the scumbag.


With no precursors to cue you up that an attack is imminent, that data dump on the brain is going to be huge.

I guess that is what the "shooting at the speed of thought' looks like.

I'm sure he could have shaved a full second off his time if some one would have been gracious enough to give him a "shooter ready".



One of my family members and two of my previous co-workers have been violently killed over the years when they lost the race between time and understanding.

I can well understand a mental processing delay before the draw and/or another after the draw before the shot. But Wilson exhibited little/no sign of this, perhaps because he was already at "condition orange" having noticed a potential threat serious enough to warrant moving people & equipment around.

Once the decision has been made, a well practiced draw involves only muscle memory. True, if you interrupt a muscle memory motor routine you can sometimes create an additional cognitive delay (e.g. if interrupted in the midst of dialing a phone number by rote, you will likely get stuck for a moment until re-establishing your place in the routine). This type of delay appears to have occurred when the perp fired his first shot, but Wilson should have already cleared leather by that point 2 seconds after beginning his draw.

Wilson is a hero who saved lives and the perp is the only one deserving blame for the lives lost. But in stark contrast to every other area of his performance, Wilson's draw - not decision making - was slow.


Well, I'm waiting for the unchambered, Israeil carry foks to chime in on why Wilson wasn't a safe shooter. Just saying.

If he had been carrying Israeli and someone was shot during the delay it took to chamber a round, would it not be reasonable to point that out? Aren't we watching these types of videos to better learn & prepare? Or are they just snuff films for the enjoyment of the twisted?

[fly out]

I think his draw was intended to be slow. I think he was avoiding eye contact/looking down and not making any sudden movement. It's hard to assess angles from camera footage, but during all relevant moments of the "slow" draw, the gunman's attention was directed to the back of the sanctuary, and I'm pretty sure Wilson was in his line of sight, certainly within his peripheral vision.

[41magfan]

I've been in and around the LE profession for over 40 years and here's a couple of inconvenient truths;

- A disproportionate number of LEO's survive their deadly encounter IN SPITE of themselves, not because they did anything right. They're "experience" can not only be rather useless, it can be hazardous to anyone taking advice from them.

- A disproportionate number of LEO's that I either know or have personal knowledge of (that have been involved in a OIS) would not be considered to be well "squared away" by any unbiased metric.

I suspect this revelation could apply to many different endeavors.

[VT1032]

A feller with a fuckton of gunfighting experience tells me he was quite impressed by Wilson. He called it “solid work” which is his expression for what I call spectacular ;) . He also notes assessment can be pretty tricky.

If I wasn’t looking through Wilson’s eyes I don’t know what he saw when. But from his hand starting the draw to this shot was plenty good for real shit.One of my favorite things to watch when I was still shooting uspsa matches was when some young tactical timmy with his warbelt and his pimped out rmr'd Glock and whatnot does some hypersonic draw and then misses or gets c zone hits right out of the gate and proceeds to land fast shitty hits or misses throughout the stage.

Then one of the good old boys, having learned long ago that a slow hit is faster then a quick miss, would step up to the line and slowly, methodically, smoke them with well placed shots. I'll take a salty old guy who may not move as quickly but puts them where they count any day of the week.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[NEPAKevin]

Then there is this POV:

You are looking into the eyes of a happy murderer, Jack Wilson. ....Bla-bla-bla...

I wonder if this is the first world equivalent to "hearing the lamentation of their women?"

[HCM]

I wonder if this is the first world equivalent to "hearing the lamentation of their women?"

Such naïveté is definitely a luxury only those in the first world could afford.

[JHC]

Such naïveté is definitely a luxury only those in the first world could afford.

Heh, if they read Cooper's The Deadly American, they'd faint dead away. Lol

[OlongJohnson]

Heh, if they read Cooper's The Deadly American, they'd faint dead away. Lol

Got a source? I googled (maybe that was my problem) and couldn't find it.

I did find this, though:

http://nraontherecord.org/

Basically, it's a site set up to cherry pick and archive every statement made by anyone significantly associated with the NRA that can make the organization look bloodthirsty and/or bigoted in any way.

Nice to know someone is out there doing such good work.

[JHC]

Got a source? I googled (maybe that was my problem) and couldn't find it.

I did find this, though:

http://nraontherecord.org/

Basically, it's a site set up to cherry pick and archive every statement made by anyone significantly associated with the NRA that can make the organization look bloodthirsty and/or bigoted in any way.

Nice to know someone is out there doing such good work.

Sadly as far as I know one has to get a copy of Cooper’s book Fireworks to find his chapter The Deadly American. I’ve never seen it online.

[Casual Friday]

The commentary that gets me is from all those saying "God/Jesus/an angel helped him make that shot." No, Wilson's extensive training & practice helped him take that shot. God helps those who help themselves!

Good grief. That's literally not in the Bible anywhere and is quite contrary to it. You're not doing yourself any favors in having people see your point of view.

[GyroF-16]

Good grief. That's literally not in the Bible anywhere and is quite contrary to it. You're not doing yourself any favors in having people see your point of view.

Re: “God helps those who help themselves”

Not to make this a theological discussion... it may not be written in the Bible, but I certainly heard that all the time growing up.
Maybe it’s more of a truism learned by midwestern-raised protestants.

[Casual Friday]

Re: “God helps those who help themselves”

Not to make this a theological discussion... it may not be written in the Bible, but I certainly heard that all the time growing up.
Maybe it’s more of a truism learned by midwestern-raised protestants.

It's right up there with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness" in terms of people saying it's in the Bible when it isn't, and not at all based in truth.

[Redhat]

Re: “God helps those who help themselves”

Not to make this a theological discussion... it may not be written in the Bible, but I certainly heard that all the time growing up.
Maybe it’s more of a truism learned by midwestern-raised protestants.

Try Ben Franklin for popularizing that saying

[blues]

Re: “God helps those who help themselves”

Not to make this a theological discussion... it may not be written in the Bible, but I certainly heard that all the time growing up.
Maybe it’s more of a truism learned by midwestern-raised protestants.

Eastern half-breeds too. And who gets to define "truth"?

[TheNewbie]

Re: “God helps those who help themselves”

Not to make this a theological discussion... it may not be written in the Bible, but I certainly heard that all the time growing up.
Maybe it’s more of a truism learned by midwestern-raised protestants.


Kind of like “Pray like everything depends on God, work like everything depends on you”.

[Redhat]

Posted in another sub-forum but probably worth a look here

Ken Hackathorn:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40001-Active-Shooter-Security-Concepts-Ken-Hackathorn

[TCinVA]

Got together with John Murphy and some other guys and we tried to replicate the conditions of the fight-stopping shot.


https://youtu.be/rR1rhgdj24Q

I certainly didn't get it on my first try. All credit to Jack Wilson for making that shot in real conditions.

[BillSWPA]

Re: picking the gun up off the table: that statement was made in the context of a new shooter. Drawing from a holster is an intermediate level skill which in that circumstance would need to be taught later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yung]

Here are links to Claude Werner's blog that relate to this matter.

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2019/12/27/requisite-level-of-skill/
https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2019/12/29/requisite-level-of-skill-part-ii/

To go with Mr. Chandler's video, here's Mr. Correia's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLkkEkS8QEc

Greg Ellifritz's Church Security compilation.
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/church-security-resource-compilation

We have had a few previous discussion threads on the subject here, dating back to 2017 around the time Sutherland happened. Here is the most recent one from last year for reference.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38867-Armed-Security-at-Churches-Is-Becoming-a-New-Normal

[GJM]

“Moving target” can have a wide range of meanings, and how fast it is moving makes an enormous amount of difference in the shot. What Tim was shooting was a much harder target than the target in the Hackathorn video.

[Casual Friday]

One of the other "greeters" called me last night looking for recommendations for belt mounted holsters and where to get them. He's been carrying a Shield in an ankle rig for a few years despite us having the conversation about it not being the ideal location for a primary gun. He purchased a gen 5 Glock 19 earlier this week, but since WA has gone full retard red coat with I1639, he won't be able to pick it up for a week to 30 days. I pointed him towards JM Custom and Dark Star Gear and told him I'd loan him a G17 holster if he gets the gun before the holster.

[BehindBlueI's]

I suspect this may make me sound like something of an outlier, but my main takeaway (there are several other notable learning points) from this incident is simply this; Seldom can your speed in presenting the gun overcome deficiencies is awareness and readiness.

Concur.


My take away was that movement draws attention. A very slow draw, attracted the attention of the shooter.

Also concur. I have not seen good results from someone drawing on a drawn gun without some distraction technique employed. It's nearly impossible to get inside someone's reaction time if they are primed and ready. I got lucky when a guy who started drawing before me got fouled in his shirt and was slow while I didn't and wasn't.



Remember our discussion of how some officers were told to miss a shot at qualifications so you won't be asked why you didn't shoot him in the leg or shoot the gun out of his hand. I brought that up when a guy who said he was a sniper told me to miss some at my TX CHL test for that reason. I thought he was nuts but some folks here said they heard the same thing.

I was thinking that we should have public service announcements telling terrorists to shoot victims in the knee.

We had an officer asked in Grand Jury why he didn't shoot the gun out of the suspect's hand.


Here's a way to thin the flotsam from this discussion: everyone who's actually shot someone and gone through that mental process and execution feel free to comment. The rest of you keyboard commandos sit down and let the grownups talk, because you don't know shit. Those church folks rose to the occasion and delivered.

I can firmly say I wasn't as fast as "range conditions" because it took me some time to realize what was going on. I thought my guy was dead but he was playing possum. I had him covered because that's what my training said to do but it took me a bit to catch up when he started to move and get back in the fight. Anyone with video doing a split second count isn't of any interest to me. As you say, the mental process matters. People tend to think of thought as instantaneous, but it isn't. Comparing a full OODA loop cycle and execution in the cluttered real world vs a draw primed by to an anticipated auditory only signal is meaningless.