AOW or SBS

[Screwball]

I have a TAC-14, which I want to setup with a folding brace... legally. Now, already started getting the stuff together, but been going back and forth on whether I should mount a brace or stock on it.

If it is a brace, going to be a SBA3 on a Suarez adapter. Stock... I’m between the same setup and a Minimalist stock or a Magpul stock. I have the Minimalist on my D/I .45 AR, and the Magpul on my home defense shotgun (actually sitting in a safe in NJ until I do an addition and have a spot for it all).

I know I’m looking at a difference in the stamp cost; $5 verses $200. But are there any benefits going AOW or SBS?

We use 14” 870s at work, so I do kind of like the idea of having a similar setup at home. But I was also considering to toss it in my truck, along with my AR pistol. A compact AR probably can do a lot of what I could ask while off-duty... but I always been a fan of shotguns.

Thanks for taking a look.

[jandbj]

With a brace and no vertical grip it’s still a non-NFA firearm.

With a stock, it won’t be an AOW, it’d be an SBS.

Also the tax to “make” an AOW is still $200, the transfer tax is only $5.

[Screwball]

Thanks for the cost explanation...

For the non-NFA point... it would be either an AOW (folding brace is under 26” OAL) or SBS (either folding or fixed stock with 14” barrel).

My question is if there is a benefit of going one over the other.

[HCM]

Thanks for the cost explanation...

For the non-NFA point... it would be either an AOW (folding brace is under 26” OAL) or SBS (either folding or fixed stock with 14” barrel).

My question is if there is a benefit of going one over the other.

If you are going NFA just go SBS.

Going AOW with a brace is a waste.

[Poconnor]

If I am understanding the newest ATF rules correctly for measuring with a folding stock or brace in the closed position-
- a factory original TAC 14 is a “firearm”
- a TAC 14 with a brace is also a “firearm”
- a TAC 14 carried concealed is now an “AOW”
- a TAC 14 with a folding brace is also now an “AOW”
- a TAC 14 with a butt stock is a SBS.

This sounds like a comedy skit on Saturday Night Live but it’s not funny in the slightest. It’s ridiculous.
I hate when people call TAC 14s and AR pistols “rule bending”. I don’t have to like the laws I just have to follow them. They are not bending the rules or laws; they are following them.

So I can open carry my tac 14 because it is a firearm. I can conceal my AR pistol on my carry permit because it is a pistol.
But what if I transport my TAC-14 in a case? A gun case? A tennis racket case?
How did I do?

[HCM]

If I am understanding the newest ATF rules correctly for measuring with a folding stock or brace in the closed position-
- a factory original TAC 14 is a “firearm”
- a TAC 14 with a brace is also a “firearm”
- a TAC 14 carried concealed is now an “AOW”
- a TAC 14 with a folding brace is also now an “AOW”
- a TAC 14 with a butt stock is a SBS.

This sounds like a comedy skit on Saturday Night Live but it’s not funny in the slightest. It’s ridiculous.
I hate when people call TAC 14s and AR pistols “rule bending”. I don’t have to like the laws I just have to follow them. They are not bending the rules or laws; they are following them.

So I can open carry my tac 14 because it is a firearm. I can conceal my AR pistol on my carry permit because it is a pistol.
But what if I transport my TAC-14 in a case? A gun case? A tennis racket case?
How did I do?

Two issues:

You are using “firearm” when I think you mean what ATF calls an “other firearm.” To avoid confusion these are usually called “others.”

A Tac 14 does not become an AOW if carried concealed. You have itwrong.

ATF defines a “concealable” firearm as a firearm less than 26” in overall length (OAL). More correctly “readily concealable” but we will stick with “concealable” here. Per the last clarification, OAL for weapons with folding or collapsible braces is measured in the folded or collapsed position.

If it has a stock, it is either a rifle, shotgun, SBR or SBS depending on barrel length. Stocks are legally considered part of the firearm and count for OAL.

Braces are accessories per ATF definition, and thus not legally a part of the firearm. As such they do not count towards OAL.

An “other firearm” is a firearm without a stock, and an OAL of greater than 26”. It can’t be a rifle, shotgun, SBS, or SBR because it doesn’t have a stock and a stock is an essential element of the legal definition of a rifle, shotgun, SBS or SBR. Since it is >26” OAL it is not readily concealable per ATF definition and thus not an AOW.

An AOW is a concealable firearm (<26” OAL) without a stock designed to be fired with two hands - which in ATF legalese equals two grips, pistol or otherwise. Concealable firearms designed not to look like firearms like pen guns are also AOW but that is a separate discussion.

Even though we commonly shoot pistols with two hands on the one pistol grip now a days, the ATF devotion of a pistol is essentially a firearm designed to be fired with one hand. This is why putting a VFG on a pistol with a light rail makes it into an AOW.

An “other firearm” can have two pistol grips because it”s OAL makes it too large to be “concealable”/AOW.

So a stock Tac 14 or a Tac 14 with a brace, being >26” OAL is an “other firearm”

An “other firearm” remain an “other firearm” if you conceal it just like a title 1 rifle or shot gun remains what it is if you conceal it.

A Tac 14 with a folder becomes an AOW since it is less than 26” OAL folded.

An SBS remains an SBS if you add a folder because it has a stock.

[Screwball]

Was looking into it... any truth that AOWs can cross state lines without ATF authorization? Looked at the ATF form (5320.20), and it states everything other than suppressors and AOWs (SBS included).

Not like that is a big deal for me, but those are the type of differences I was wondering about.

[CleverNickname]

Was looking into it... any truth that AOWs can cross state lines without ATF authorization? Looked at the ATF form (5320.20), and it states everything other than suppressors and AOWs (SBS included).

Not like that is a big deal for me, but those are the type of differences I was wondering about.

If you looked at the form, then you should have seen that it quotes the exact law, 18 USC 922(a)(4) (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#a_4), which requires getting permission to for interstate moves. Read that part of the law and you'll get your answer.

[JRB]

I'd go SBS and never look back.

[Dan_S]

I'd go SBS and never look back.

Why?


If you’re adding a brace to an other firearm, which doesn’t change the status of said other firearm...I guess I don’t get it.

[Screwball]

A folding brace on a TAC-14 makes it’s OAL at 24”... since the brace isn’t counted to that measurement. If I was just adding a brace, then yes... would still be non-NFA.

I was hoping that going AOW would allow me to bring to NJ (originally from there), since it isn’t a SBS... those are illegal within NJ (funny aside... SBRs are lumped with SBSs in NJ’s legislation; all called “sawed off shotguns”). But they included AOW as a no-no in the TAC-14 approval letter. So, SBS might be the ticket.

If I go SBS, any issue going between a fixed stock and a side folder? I know OAL is asked, but wasn’t sure if that difference mattered.

[JRB]

A folding brace on a TAC-14 makes it’s OAL at 24”... since the brace isn’t counted to that measurement. If I was just adding a brace, then yes... would still be non-NFA.

I was hoping that going AOW would allow me to bring to NJ (originally from there), since it isn’t a SBS... those are illegal within NJ (funny aside... SBRs are lumped with SBSs in NJ’s legislation; all called “sawed off shotguns”). But they included AOW as a no-no in the TAC-14 approval letter. So, SBS might be the ticket.

If I go SBS, any issue going between a fixed stock and a side folder? I know OAL is asked, but wasn’t sure if that difference mattered.

Ostensibly, one should inform the ATF to update their record of the weapon if it is a permanent change, and you have no intent to swap it back and forth depending on need.

But as seen with SBR'd AR's going from 7.5in uppers to 11.5in uppers to whatever, so long as you have the parts on hand to return it to the 'papered' configuration on demand, there should be no issue. But IANAL.

[Screwball]

Ostensibly, one should inform the ATF to update their record of the weapon if it is a permanent change, and you have no intent to swap it back and forth depending on need.

But as seen with SBR'd AR's going from 7.5in uppers to 11.5in uppers to whatever, so long as you have the parts on hand to return it to the 'papered' configuration on demand, there should be no issue. But IANAL.

Thanks.

I guess it would come down to comfort with the folding setup. Ideally I’d want that level of compactness... but if it sucks to shoot, I probably would just do a Magpul stock (which is comfortable from use with my 870P).

[HCM]

A folding brace on a TAC-14 makes it’s OAL at 24”... since the brace isn’t counted to that measurement. If I was just adding a brace, then yes... would still be non-NFA.

I was hoping that going AOW would allow me to bring to NJ (originally from there), since it isn’t a SBS... those are illegal within NJ (funny aside... SBRs are lumped with SBSs in NJ’s legislation; all called “sawed off shotguns”). But they included AOW as a no-no in the TAC-14 approval letter. So, SBS might be the ticket.

If I go SBS, any issue going between a fixed stock and a side folder? I know OAL is asked, but wasn’t sure if that difference mattered.

On an SBS OAL doesn’t matter. An SBS, having a stock, is still an SBS regardless of OAL. doesn’t matter if the stock is a fixed, folding or collapsible.

[Jimichanga]

I have a TAC-14, which I want to setup with a folding brace... legally. Now, already started getting the stuff together, but been going back and forth on whether I should mount a brace or stock on it.

If it is a brace, going to be a SBA3 on a Suarez adapter. Stock... I’m between the same setup and a Minimalist stock or a Magpul stock. I have the Minimalist on my D/I .45 AR, and the Magpul on my home defense shotgun (actually sitting in a safe in NJ until I do an addition and have a spot for it all).

I know I’m looking at a difference in the stamp cost; $5 verses $200. But are there any benefits going AOW or SBS?

We use 14” 870s at work, so I do kind of like the idea of having a similar setup at home. But I was also considering to toss it in my truck, along with my AR pistol. A compact AR probably can do a lot of what I could ask while off-duty... but I always been a fan of shotguns.

Thanks for taking a look.

****

I guess it would come down to comfort with the folding setup. Ideally I’d want that level of compactness... but if it sucks to shoot, I probably would just do a Magpul stock (which is comfortable from use with my 870P).

I have the the TAC14 folding brace setup from Suarez. I set it up before the ATF clarified their policy on measuring firearms with a brace. I swapped out the MIM extractor, springs, added a mag extension, an ardius crom rail and red dot. I also put a streamlight tl racker light on it. It is a handy little package. That said, I would not describe it as pleasant to shoot with that brace. It is bearable with low recoil buck and slugs. I shoot a fair bit of shotgun for work and I don't mind it but I would not want to shoot the TAC14 in a match or class.

I took the brace off and am in the process of filing a form 1 for it.

Whether to SBS it or AOW?

I bought this gun to travel with. It is a convenient little package for travel. So for me I am going to AOW it because they are allowed in the states I frequently travel to. Moreover, I don't have to worry about the SBS interstate notice issue as cited in 18 USC 922 above. If I was not traveling to a state that did not allow SBS or if I was staying in my home state I would just SBS it. The folding brace works but a proper stock is greatly preferred.

[Screwball]

I have the the TAC14 folding brace setup from Suarez. I set it up before the ATF clarified their policy on measuring firearms with a brace. I swapped out the MIM extractor, springs, added a mag extension, an ardius crom rail and red dot. I also put a streamlight tl racker light on it. It is a handy little package. That said, I would not describe it as pleasant to shoot with that brace. It is bearable with low recoil buck and slugs. I shoot a fair bit of shotgun for work and I don't mind it but I would not want to shoot the TAC14 in a match or class.

I took the brace off and am in the process of filing a form 1 for it.

Whether to SBS it or AOW?

I bought this gun to travel with. It is a convenient little package for travel. So for me I am going to AOW it because they are allowed in the states I frequently travel to. Moreover, I don't have to worry about the SBS interstate notice issue as cited in 18 USC 922 above. If I was not traveling to a state that did not allow SBS or if I was staying in my home state I would just SBS it. The folding brace works but a proper stock is greatly preferred.

I’m in the same boat with the Suarez brace... it is sitting in NJ until I get it squared away.

I had it with the SB SOB brace, which was only comfortable after getting a rifle sighted barrel (sight plane was raised a little bit). However, I just built an AR pistol using the SBA3 brace... and it feels A LOT better than the SOB (added the Split Fix). Recoil wise, it was noticeable, but only the cheekweld part bothered me when I first got it. Don’t think it was any worse than qualifying with our 14” 870s. I would think the SBA3 and rifle sights would be a good combination.

Only difference with doing a folding stock would be a Minimalist stock riding on the tube instead... and if I did a fixed stock, Magpul.

Was doing more looking into it, and while a SBS would make the TAC-14 a shotgun (would be illegal from Jump St going back to NJ entirely), swapping the brace setup with the original birdshead grip should allow the TAC-14 the ability to go into NJ (from how I read their letter approving these firearms; actually approves the Black Aces DT, which is why I did the folding brace in the first place... but that ship has sailed). Likelihood I’ll be bringing it down is moot... but rather have the ability to do so than not. Everything else I would consider a truck gun is illegal there... at least now (.45 AR would have been good with USC magazines... but it now wears a Minimalist stock).