Under what circumstances would you want +P+ ammunition?

[Cypher]

I really don't know much about ammunition I don't know enough to know why I'd want +P+ ammunition. I use the ammunition I use now because a recognized SME recommended it and it's on DocGKR's list but I want to understand why someone would choose +P+ ammunition. Is it personal preference? Is it what your employer issues? Is it to defeat body armor? Is it because you might have to shoot through a car door?

Thanks for your answers

[Le Français]

I once bought a case (or perhaps two cases) of 9BPLE because it was cheap and once had a good reputation (though decidedly not for abnormally good penetration, either through cars or through armor). Not necessarily good reasons, just mine at the time. These days I get a practically unlimited supply of Gold Dots from my employer.

[10mmfanboy]

I never even see +p+ ammo in 9mm anymore. I would like to know also why I can't find published load data for 9mm +p or .38 special +p? They are both recognized as SAMMI spec loads, so why isn't there load data?

Only one kind of theme I've noticed with +p ammo is it actually seems to penetrate less but usually expands a little better. No scientific data for me to say that, it's just what I seem to notice more times than not.

[Cypher]

I once bought a case (or perhaps two cases) of 9BPLE because it was cheap and once had a good reputation (though decidedly not for abnormally good penetration, either through cars or through armor). Not necessarily good reasons, just mine at the time. These days I get a practically unlimited supply of Gold Dots from my employer.

So just a personal preference. Thanks.

[Cypher]

I'm not intending to switch out my ammunition. I'm just asking for information sake.

There is +P+ ammunition on DocGKR's list so it must still be available.

I could see where hitting the target at a higher velocity would make it expand more reliably but I don't have any data to back that up either

[Yung]

Seems to me it was less about the +P+ and more about 9BPLE being more affordable at some point while still performing decently.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11541-9BPLE

Somebody brought some to John Johnston's non-ordnance gel demo at the Public Encounters class last week. You can see comparison pics on his and John Correia's Instagrams.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6GdjNrJbfC/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6Gadjfnq4a/?hl=en

I'm under the impression that it's previous-gen technology, but that wouldn't keep me from carrying it.

[JRB]

I do know that 9BPLE in particular runs *wonderfully* in my transferable UZI. I'd imagine PCC's and similar guns that have 10in+ barrels get even more out of 9BPLE.

Being an open bolt SMG, +P+ bumps up the UZI's cyclic rate from the typical ~550-600rpm to ~700-750ish too.

I could see a good argument for 9BPLE or similar for institutional use of 9mm SMG's or long guns, since it'd be a decent mix of terminal effectiveness and cost effectiveness. But it's hard for me to imagine an anyone that'd issue a 9mm SMG that wouldn't issue a shorty 5.56 instead these days.

[JAD]

Separately consider the 9BP bullet and loads from the question of +P+.

There is a load which has historically performed very well, the Ranger 127. I haven’t seen it in a while and Winchester has really slid on quality, so I don’t seek it out.

There is not another +P+ load on docs list so I would end the question there.

The 9BP is obsolete. It has always shot well in most of my guns and I buy the standard pressure load when I see it for evaluating new pistols.

[0ddl0t]

From a Glock 34, the ranger 127 +p+ is right at a 165 power factor

[BehindBlueI's]

I would like to know also why I can't find published load data for 9mm +p or .38 special +p? They are both recognized as SAMMI spec loads, so why isn't there load data?

I haven't bought a new reloading manual in 15+ years, but mine certainly lists +P loads. If there's any particular weight/powder you're looking for let me know and I'll see what it says.

[revchuck38]

I never even see +p+ ammo in 9mm anymore. I would like to know also why I can't find published load data for 9mm +p or .38 special +p? They are both recognized as SAMMI spec loads, so why isn't there load data?

It's out there:

Ramshot (http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf) (Complete load manual, includes both 9x19 +P and .38 +P)

Alliant (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gtypeid=1) (Complete list of handgun data, includes both)

Hodgdon (http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol) (includes Winchester and IMR, only .38 +P data)

[BehindBlueI's]

I really don't know much about ammunition I don't know enough to know why I'd want +P+ ammunition.

So +P+ means it exceeds SAAMI specs for the given cartridge, but that it's below the pressure of a proof round. There is no actual standard other than "more than +P and it probably won't blow your gun up on the first shot." The reason you'd want it is you want more pressure, generally in an attempt to gain more velocity, and you have a gun that is capable of that pressure and a bullet designed to do what you want it to do in that velocity window. This is seldom the case for modern ammunition.

That said, consider the venerable .45 Colt. Designed in the 1870's for black powder guns, the maximum pressure for standard ammunition is 14,000 PSI. The .44 Magnum, designed for modern smokeless powders out of the gate, is over 250% higher at 36,000 PSI. While 1870's guns still exist and there are modern replicas, there are also many .45 Colt revolvers that are roughly identical to the .44 magnum counterpart. There is no SAAMI spec for .45 Colt +P, but +P for other cartridges is usually 20% or less. Even if SAAMI did designate a +P, it wouldn't be anywhere near the actual capabilities of a Ruger Redhawk or S&W N-frame, since anything that did would insta-grenade a Colt SAA made for the original load. So, if you aren't getting enough penetration, expansion, or both in the .45 Colt you can really crank up the pressure, design a bullet that's for the new velocity window, and roughly equal the .44 magnum (some will say exceed, but not the point here) in those certain guns that will stand up to the wildly out of spec pressures.

[Nephrology]

+P+ 9mm? If I was running a subgun sure I guess.

Handgun? No thanks. +P or std pressure do just fine.

[JAH 3rd]

Never have shot a +P+, but I wonder what the flinch factor would be in anticipation of the recoil.

[blues]

The only time I carried it was when we were issued it by our agency as our duty load. I don't remember it having any negative effects on qualifications or firearms, (handguns)...but I don't think we stuck with it very long either, going from memory.

Wouldn't think most handgun manufacturers recommend its use...especially prolonged use.

[Duelist]

The only reason I can think of to use it is attempting to get .357 Magnum 125gr JHP terminal effect/ballistics out of a 9x19 handgun. IMO, that’s not necessary: just use a .357 if you need those ballistics. They still make them. ;) I use a .357 Mag when I want to throw heavier bullets, though.

[ranger]

I still have a bunch on 9BPLE on hand - there was a time when it sold for generic 9mm FMJ pricing. 9BPLE shoots well in modern quality 9mms. I got it because it is a good shooting round that happens to be +P+. I tend to carry HST 124 +P.

[okie john]

I really don't know much about ammunition I don't know enough to know why I'd want +P+ ammunition. I use the ammunition I use now because a recognized SME recommended it and it's on DocGKR's list but I want to understand why someone would choose +P+ ammunition. Is it personal preference? Is it what your employer issues? Is it to defeat body armor? Is it because you might have to shoot through a car door?

Thanks for your answers

I wouldn't seek it out but I'd take it if it was on The List AND it was all that I could get.

I would not handload to that level for any reason.


Okie John

[Bucky]

The 127 Ranger +P+ was once a very popular load. Some speculated the the +P+ might have been more of a gimmick.

As for punching through car doors, the +P Gold Dot is likely a better option.

[MD7305]

My department issues 9mm 127gr. +P+ Winchester Ranger. I can't tell any difference in perceived recoil compared to a 124gr. +P. I'm not sure why it was chosen but it replaced Remington Golden Sabre as our duty load.

[Bucky]

My department issues 9mm 127gr. +P+ Winchester Ranger. I can't tell any difference in perceived recoil compared to a 124gr. +P. I'm not sure why it was chosen but it replaced Remington Golden Sabre as our duty load.

In my experience, the 127 Ranger is a bit softer shooting than the Gold Dot 124 +P.

[JAD]

Never have shot a +P+, but I wonder what the flinch factor would be in anticipation of the recoil.

It’s still just a nine.

[TC215]

We used to run 127 grain +P+ Ranger in our MP5’s at my old department. I liked it because it had a good reputation, plus it was free.

[blues]

We used to run 127 grain +P+ Ranger in our MP5’s at my old department. I liked it because it had a good reputation, plus it was free.

I miss that old MP5.

[TC215]

I miss that old MP5.

Probably my favorite gun to shoot.

We had a SWAT call-out for a botched gas station robbery/hostage situation at the end of July, just a couple days before I left the department. I had already turned my rifle in, so I dug the MP5 out of my locker and dusted it off. It was a good way to go out.

[blues]

Probably my favorite gun to shoot.

We had a SWAT call-out for a botched gas station robbery/hostage situation at the end of July, just a couple days before I left the department. I had already turned my rifle in, so I dug the MP5 out of my locker and dusted it off. It was a good way to go out.

So to speak. ;)

Yeah, I enjoyed my time with one while I was still on SRT. Had to turn it in later on when I left.

[Inspector71]

Did somebody mention +P+ ammo ?

[Cypher]

Did somebody mention +P+ ammo ?

OK, what am I missing?

[BehindBlueI's]

OK, what am I missing?

That's the old "Treasury load" .38 Special +P+ ammo.

[Duelist]

OK, what am I missing?

If you want similar, grab a box of 110gr Federal or Winchester .357.

[Greg]

There have been times when people got all googoo eyed about velocity and energy figures and ASSumed that these were the keys to ammunition effectiveness.

SuperVel and Cor-Bon both grew during these periods. Underwood currently seems to buy into "velocity uber alles" as well.

If you view a handgun as something that just pokes holes in dirtbags (as most do now) you can spare your pistols the +P+ wear and tear.

[Default.mp3]

Random bit of trivia, but apparently NSW at one point specced out something that could be considered +P+ for the MK23.


I do. In the original JSOR (Joint Special Operations Requirements) document for the OHWS (Offensive Handgun Weapon System) SOCOM wanted a 4 component system. .45 ACP Handgun (later to be called the MK23 MOD 1), Laser Aiming Module (LAM), signature suppressor and the forth component most don't know about an enhanced round of .45 ACP HP ammo to be used in CT operations. The users wanted a 230 grain +P+ round with high performance expanding projectile. Winchester built an extremely nasty (black colored) version of the "Black Talon" round built to +P velocities in the ".45 Super" range as I recall (it's been a while). There was no SAAMI spec for +P+ .45 ACP so they we working well above known safe limits. I recall the original bullet weight was 230 grains and it smoked, and the overbuilt MK23 loved it! In the end no ammo maker would make the ammunition for SOCOM as they feared it would be fired in a handgun not rated for it - and most were not. The Navy did purchase a qty of Talon .45 ACP +P ammo later to be called "SXT" but I don't recall the nomenclature.


Update: Did a bit of digging in the ammo stash - I knew there was more to the answer. Olin (Winchester) also loaded a 185 gr +P round for the MK23 with a Truncated Cone (flat point FMJ basically) projectile. This was for use for non-CT (counter terrorist) operations. The US DoD does not allow hollow point ammo for non-CT operations as per the Hague convention. We can JDAM the bad guys but not shoot thenm with true hollow point .45's. The ammo comes in a white Olin box - 50 rounds per box.


G3KurzSource: https://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/170810-winchester-special-ammo-mk23.html#post1283934

[Cypher]

If you want similar, grab a box of 110gr Federal or Winchester .357.

I don't own a .38 or a .357

[revchuck38]

I don't own a .38 or a .357

Shame on you! :)

[Cypher]

That's the old "Treasury load" .38 Special +P+ ammo.

I assumed it was something like that but I didn't see a +P+ symbol anywhere on the box.

[officerdave]

what I carried back in the day ..... we carried Smith and Wesson 65s but only were allowed to load the Treasury load .

With modern ammunition in 9mm, what we carry now, no real need for +P+

No reason to beat up your gun or my old hands

[Cypher]

The reason I even asked this question is because I saw a discussion on another forum in which the poster was asking if it was ok to use 9mm +P+ ammunition in an M&P Shield.

I wanted to understand why someone would choose +P+.

I'm really wondering why anyone would put that in a pistol after hearing some of you say it belongs in a submachine gun.

Next question am I wasting money on +P ammunition?

[revchuck38]

The ammo I use (124-grain HST +P) is usually the same price for the standard velocity version.

[JAD]

The reason I even asked this question is because I saw a discussion on another forum in which the poster was asking if it was ok to use 9mm +P+ ammunition in an M&P Shield.
The nature of the term ‘+P+’ makes that kind of hard to answer. As noted it’s a big range, above +P in pressure and below a proof load. It’s better to talk of specific loads. There is really only one +P+ load around worth considering, the 127 Ranger, and other than potential quality issues associated with all Win ammo these days I think it’s fine.

In answer to the OOP I would probably guess that the shield will handle the twelve rounds he’ll ever fire.


I'm really wondering why anyone would put that in a pistol after hearing some of you say it belongs in a submachine gun.
It’s not that big a deal.


Next question am I wasting money on +P ammunition?
Probably, except they cost the same. The real key is this — grab anything at random off of Gary’s list and stop wasting energy worrying about caliber or load.

[BobM]

The reason I even asked this question is because I saw a discussion on another forum in which the poster was asking if it was ok to use 9mm +P+ ammunition in an M&P Shield.

I wanted to understand why someone would choose +P+.

I'm really wondering why anyone would put that in a pistol after hearing some of you say it belongs in a submachine gun.

Next question am I wasting money on +P ammunition?

I recently acquired a Shield and it is currently loaded with the Winchester 127 grain load. The recoil is noticeable compared to 124 grain ball. I'm using it because it's what I have on hand. It's not recent production. Eventually I'll get some HST or Gold Dot.

[BehindBlueI's]

I wanted to understand why someone would choose +P+.


Because they don't know what they don't know and are impressed by the muzzle energy numbers. Same reason people buy the ultra-light-ultra-fast frangible ammunition. They mistakenly think that a higher energy number has more "stopping power" or is deadlier. Usually accompanied by "I believe in physics".

[Totem Polar]

One thing to consider with +P+: in addition to a range of extra pressure, there is also a duration of extra pressure based on powder burn. For example the 147 +P+ hydra-shok .38 load is pretty mild, with no more felt recoil than typical FBI +P LSWCHP. I’ve been told that the load very briefly crosses past the spec for +P during the burn. By comparison, the treasury load really is running a higher pressure—though not at all outrageous, since .38 special is relatively modest pressure to start with. The old cor-bon +P+ LSWCHP offering that duplicated the RCMP spec .38 duty load ran an easy 1000fps out of 4” revolvers, and felt like it, unlike the Hydra-shok. That said, having shot the cor-bon back-to-back with today’s buffalo bore, the BB is most def hotter, despite Tim’s product carrying just a “+P” rating. Powder burn is an arcane science to me.

For service auto loads, I wouldn’t get wrapped around the axle over pressure rating, although doc GKR has said that the +P 124 GDHP is a slightly better performer than the still acceptable standard pressure 124 GDHP. Where “+P” really matters is the older wheelgun chamberings that start with crazy low pressure specs to begin with: .38spec, .44spec, .45LC...

Back when I was young and you mail ordered ammo by actually using real mail, I shot a ton of cor-bon’s +P+, because I only owned one gun (4" NY-1 K-frame .38) and the practical club in town did bowling pin shoots a couple of times a month. That RCMP spec .38 actually held its own against the 1911s with ball in them.

[Wondering Beard]

Next question am I wasting money on +P ammunition?

Extra oomph to cycle a real dirty gun that got dropped in some sort of sludge during Youtube "torture testing". At least that's one explanation I hear often.

Supposedly also helps penetrate through chest carried rifle mags.

Probably also helps getting through hard stuff to get to the good fleshy bits.

I think +P in 9mm is actually what the original design of the caliber called for, but I could be wrong.